Reporting an Aviation Accident

[Happy Dog]

The Canadian and US regulations state reporting procedures and the
conditions under which a accident plane can be moved. But what is the
procedure for this scenario:

Two planes are involved in a midair enroute from Canada to the US. The
midair happens in Canadian Airspace but the planes land in the US. Both
planes are seriously damaged. Is it an offence to land anywhere but the
nearest suitable airport? Which authority must be notified? Once the
planes have landed, can they be moved from the place they stopped without
permission from the investigating authority? (i.e. Moved from the ramp to a
hangar.)

Le Moo

[zatatime]

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 22:03:55 -0500, "Happy Dog"
> wrote:

>The Canadian and US regulations state reporting procedures and the
>conditions under which a accident plane can be moved. But what is the
>procedure for this scenario:
>
>Two planes are involved in a midair enroute from Canada to the US. The
>midair happens in Canadian Airspace but the planes land in the US. Both
>planes are seriously damaged. Is it an offence to land anywhere but the
>nearest suitable airport? Which authority must be notified? Once the
>planes have landed, can they be moved from the place they stopped without
>permission from the investigating authority? (i.e. Moved from the ramp to a
>hangar.)
>
>Le Moo
>


Call everybody, let them work it out, and stop trolling.

z

[tony roberts]

> Is it an offence to land anywhere but the
> nearest suitable airport?

As far as I'm aware it isn't an offense to crash anywhere other than the
nearest airport - which appears to be what you are describing.

>Which authority must be notified?
Initially the US - that's where the planes crashed.
Where were the aircraft registered?


>Once the
> planes have landed, can they be moved from the place they stopped without
> permission from the investigating authority?

Not unless they pose an immediate threat

Tony



--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Happy Dog]

"zatatime" > wrote in message
> > wrote:
>
>>The Canadian and US regulations state reporting procedures and the
>>conditions under which a accident plane can be moved. But what is the
>>procedure for this scenario:
>>
>>Two planes are involved in a midair enroute from Canada to the US. The
>>midair happens in Canadian Airspace but the planes land in the US. Both
>>planes are seriously damaged. Is it an offence to land anywhere but the
>>nearest suitable airport? Which authority must be notified? Once the
>>planes have landed, can they be moved from the place they stopped without
>>permission from the investigating authority? (i.e. Moved from the ramp to
>>a
>>hangar.)
>>
>>Le Moo
>>
> Call everybody, let them work it out, and stop trolling.

Thanks for the informed response. Trolls usually post from anonymous
addresses though, idiot.

m

[Happy Dog]

"tony roberts" > wrote in message

>> Is it an offence to land anywhere but the
>> nearest suitable airport?
>
> As far as I'm aware it isn't an offense to crash anywhere other than the
> nearest airport - which appears to be what you are describing.

If you thought (thought?) that you could continue on would it be an offense
to land anywhere but the nearest suitable airport? I'm guessing that
arguing that you believed the plane to still be airworthy wouldn't fly, as
it were. So, there would be no excuse for landing anywhere but the closest
airport. That might result in an illegal entry vis a vis immigration
authorities but the emergency justifies it. (I know a case where a Canadian
student lost electrical power on a night solo and landed at a US airport.
He was given very little trouble by US authorities. Pre 9/11 though.)
>
>>Which authority must be notified?

> Initially the US - that's where the planes crashed.

I would suspect. But is it an offence not to contact the TSB in Canada per
Canadian regulations? (AIP GEN 3)

> Where were the aircraft registered?

I believe they're US based.
>
>
>>Once the
>> planes have landed, can they be moved from the place they stopped without
>> permission from the investigating authority?
>
> Not unless they pose an immediate threat

My interpretation as well.

Thanks.

m

[Newps]

tony roberts wrote:

>
>
>>Once the
>>planes have landed, can they be moved from the place they stopped without
>>permission from the investigating authority?
>
>
> Not unless they pose an immediate threat

Common misconception. It's my property and if I feel I need to move it
then I will move it. Also nowhere in any regs does it say an aircraft
cannot be moved or must be released by some authority.

[Happy Dog]

"Newps" >
>
> tony roberts wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Once the planes have landed, can they be moved from the place they
>>>stopped without permission from the investigating authority?
>>
>> Not unless they pose an immediate threat
>
> Common misconception. It's my property and if I feel I need to move it
> then I will move it. Also nowhere in any regs does it say an aircraft
> cannot be moved or must be released by some authority.

Of course you will. In what country? This question is a routine exam item.
I assume that you're in the US (but Canadian regs are the same). You cannot
legally move an airplane involved in an accident (with few exceptions) until
authorized by the appropriate authority. Do some research:

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_03/49cfr830_03.html

Score yourself:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/general/exams/guides/tp11919/Section14.htm

le moo

[tony roberts]

> Common misconception. It's my property and if I feel I need to move it
> then I will move it. Also nowhere in any regs does it say an aircraft
> cannot be moved or must be released by some authority.

I'm Canadian and am following the Canadian regs, which state:

Except to rescue or remove survivors, extinguish a fire, or to prevent
danger to any person or property, nothing at the site should be touched
or removed . The preservation of any marks on the ground or objects
along the accident trail is also of critical importance.

Tony



--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[John Harlow]

>> Call everybody, let them work it out, and stop trolling.
>
> Thanks for the informed response. Trolls usually post from anonymous
> addresses though, idiot.

If a "seriously damaged" plane can land anywhere the LAST thing the persons
on board are going to worry about is some silly regulation or which country
it's in.

Amd you call HIM an idiot!

[Dale]

In article >,
Newps > wrote:


>
> Common misconception. It's my property and if I feel I need to move it
> then I will move it. Also nowhere in any regs does it say an aircraft
> cannot be moved or must be released by some authority.

That depends on where your mishap happens. On the airport I worked at
your airplane belonged to me until I released it.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[zatatime]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:45:56 -0500, "John Harlow"
> wrote:

>>> Call everybody, let them work it out, and stop trolling.
>>
>> Thanks for the informed response. Trolls usually post from anonymous
>> addresses though, idiot.
>
>If a "seriously damaged" plane can land anywhere the LAST thing the persons
>on board are going to worry about is some silly regulation or which country
>it's in.
>
>Amd you call HIM an idiot!
>
Thank you.

z

[Happy Dog]

"John Harlow" > wrote in message
...
>>> Call everybody, let them work it out, and stop trolling.
>>
>> Thanks for the informed response. Trolls usually post from anonymous
>> addresses though, idiot.
>
> If a "seriously damaged" plane can land anywhere the LAST thing the
> persons on board are going to worry about is some silly regulation or
> which country it's in.
>
> Amd you call HIM an idiot!
>

[Happy Dog]

"John Harlow" > wrote in message
>>> Call everybody, let them work it out, and stop trolling.
>>
>> Thanks for the informed response. Trolls usually post from anonymous
>> addresses though, idiot.
>
> If a "seriously damaged" plane can land anywhere the LAST thing the
> persons on board are going to worry about is some silly regulation or
> which country it's in.

Until they're on the ground. After that you don't know, do you?
>
> Amd you call HIM an idiot!

Correct.

moo

[Happy Dog]

"zatatime" > wrote in message

>>If a "seriously damaged" plane can land anywhere the LAST thing the
>>persons
>>on board are going to worry about is some silly regulation or which
>>country
>>it's in.
>>
>>Amd you call HIM an idiot!
>>
> Thank you.

For the support? I can see how you might need it. You don't really
understand the issues raised here. But your contribution is priceless
anyway.

m

[Newps]

Happy Dog wrote:
> "Newps" >
>
>>tony roberts wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>Once the planes have landed, can they be moved from the place they
>>>>stopped without permission from the investigating authority?
>>>
>>>Not unless they pose an immediate threat
>>
>>Common misconception. It's my property and if I feel I need to move it
>>then I will move it. Also nowhere in any regs does it say an aircraft
>>cannot be moved or must be released by some authority.
>
>
> Of course you will. In what country? This question is a routine exam item.
> I assume that you're in the US (but Canadian regs are the same). You cannot
> legally move an airplane involved in an accident (with few exceptions) until
> authorized by the appropriate authority. Do some research:
>
> http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_03/49cfr830_03.html

Exactly what I said. If I feel I need to move it I can move it.

[Happy Dog]

"Newps" >

>>>Common misconception. It's my property and if I feel I need to move it
>>>then I will move it. Also nowhere in any regs does it say an aircraft
>>>cannot be moved or must be released by some authority.
>>
>>
>> Of course you will. In what country? This question is a routine exam
>> item. I assume that you're in the US (but Canadian regs are the same).
>> You cannot legally move an airplane involved in an accident (with few
>> exceptions) until authorized by the appropriate authority. Do some
>> research:
>>
>> http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_03/49cfr830_03.html
>
> Exactly what I said. If I feel I need to move it I can move it.

Imbecile or troll. Pick one or both. Your statement is wholly incorrect.
Interesting nonsense is interesting. Yours isn't.

TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

SAFETY BOARD

Subpart C--Preservation of Aircraft Wreckage, Mail, Cargo, and Records

Sec. 830.10 Preservation of aircraft wreckage, mail, cargo, and records.

(a) The operator of an aircraft involved in an accident or incident
for which notification must be given is responsible for preserving to
the extent possible any aircraft wreckage, cargo, and mail aboard the
aircraft, and all records, including all recording mediums of flight,
maintenance, and voice recorders, pertaining to the operation and
maintenance of the aircraft and to the airmen until the Board takes
custody thereof or a release is granted pursuant to Sec. 831.12(b) of
this chapter.
(b) Prior to the time the Board or its authorized representative
takes custody of aircraft wreckage, mail, or cargo, such wreckage, mail,
or cargo may not be disturbed or moved except to the extent necessary:
(1) To remove persons injured or trapped;
(2) To protect the wreckage from further damage; or
(3) To protect the public from injury.
(c) Where it is necessary to move aircraft wreckage, mail or cargo,
sketches, descriptive notes, and photographs shall be made, if possible,
of the original positions and condition of the wreckage and any
significant impact marks.
(d) The operator of an aircraft involved in an accident or incident
shall retain all records, reports, internal documents, and memoranda
dealing with the accident or incident, until authorized by the Board to
the contrary.

moo

[Newps]

Happy Dog wrote:

>>
>>Exactly what I said. If I feel I need to move it I can move it.
>
>
> Imbecile or troll. Pick one or both. Your statement is wholly incorrect.
> Interesting nonsense is interesting. Yours isn't.

Drivel snipped.



You can keep saying the same thing if you want but it doesn't change the
fact that if I feel the need to move the wreckage to protect it or
myself I will do so.

[Happy Dog]

"Newps" > wrote in message
> Happy Dog wrote:
>
>>>
>>>Exactly what I said. If I feel I need to move it I can move it.
>>
>>
>> Imbecile or troll. Pick one or both. Your statement is wholly
>> incorrect. Interesting nonsense is interesting. Yours isn't.

> Drivel snipped.
> You can keep saying the same thing if you want but it doesn't change the
> fact that if I feel the need to move the wreckage to protect it or myself
> I will do so.

Bloviating idiot. You said "nowhere in any regs does it say an aircraft
cannot be moved or must be released by some authority". That's incorrect.
The "drivel" you snipped is from current NTSB Regulations.

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_03/49cfr830_03.html

If you're a pilot, you have a knowledge and an attitude problem. Few
seasoned pilots remember every question on their first few exams. But when
an answer to one is posted for you, and you ignore and contradict it, that's
skirting imbecile territory. And, still, not an on-topic word about my
original post. So, who's the troll?

le moo