Tailwheel Crosswind Landing

I am a long term lurker and have a question regarding landing tailwheel
airplanes in a crosswind. I have about 250 hours in a Piper PA-12 Super
Cruiser. The other day during a very routine crosswind landing I
started heading for the weeds faster than I new what to do.

I had a fairly gentle cross wind from the left. I had cancelled out all
sideways drift by lowering my left wing and aligned the plane with the
runway with right rudder. At touchdown, everything seemed perfect. That
is when all hell broke loose. As soon as I touched down, I started a
very fast turn to the right. At one point I was headed right between
two runway light. As I was deciding that "between" was not a bad place
to be, I finally managed to straighten everything out and managed to
stay on the runway.

In talking to my mechanic as soon as I touched down (I was sure there
was a mechanical problem), he figured that with all of the right rudder
needed to keep things straight, that my tailwheel just sent me to the
right once it touched down.

My question is, what was really going on here? Should my tailwheel
have released (castored) when I touched down? Your thoughts are greatly
appreciated.

Thanks.

Tom

[jls]

> wrote in message
...
> I am a long term lurker and have a question regarding landing tailwheel
> airplanes in a crosswind. I have about 250 hours in a Piper PA-12 Super
> Cruiser. The other day during a very routine crosswind landing I
> started heading for the weeds faster than I new what to do.
>
[...]
> In talking to my mechanic as soon as I touched down (I was sure there
> was a mechanical problem), he figured that with all of the right rudder
> needed to keep things straight, that my tailwheel just sent me to the
> right once it touched down.
>
> My question is, what was really going on here? Should my tailwheel
> have released (castored) when I touched down? Your thoughts are greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tom

I had that happen to me recently in a Taylorcraft and thankfully I straddled
the runway lights and had enough width on the runway to get her tracking
straight again. It must have been a gust or windshear, only thing I can
figure. Maule tailwheel will break free and swivel when it takes a
notion, but it has always behaved when planted on the runway at landing
time. It doesn't lock per se but does have something of a detent. I had
the wing down into the crosswind just like the seagulls do, but somehow as
soon as we touched down the wind turned us. It was the closest thing to a
ground-loop I ever had. If I had it to do over again I would have done a
wheel landing, or a go-around.

[Dudley Henriques]

If I remember right, (and that would be a minor miracle :-)the Cruiser
came with a free castoring tailwheel I think, but it's been a long time
:-)) Do you have a Scott or a Maule on the airplane, or the original
tailwheel?

If it's the original, with your experience and the wind you are
describing, it sounds very much like a hung up tailwheel spring that
kinked out on you then released as the full weight of the airplane
centered in the "new direction". It's really hard to tell, and the
answer would be in your memory on how the pedals felt at the exact
instant the airplane swerved to the right. If you think back, did the
pedal LEAD your foot, and did the airplane swerve at the exact instant
the tail contacted the runway? This would be a clue if you could
remember that!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
for email; take out the trash




> wrote in message
...
>I am a long term lurker and have a question regarding landing tailwheel
> airplanes in a crosswind. I have about 250 hours in a Piper PA-12
> Super
> Cruiser. The other day during a very routine crosswind landing I
> started heading for the weeds faster than I new what to do.
>
> I had a fairly gentle cross wind from the left. I had cancelled out
> all
> sideways drift by lowering my left wing and aligned the plane with the
> runway with right rudder. At touchdown, everything seemed perfect.
> That
> is when all hell broke loose. As soon as I touched down, I started a
> very fast turn to the right. At one point I was headed right between
> two runway light. As I was deciding that "between" was not a bad
> place
> to be, I finally managed to straighten everything out and managed to
> stay on the runway.
>
> In talking to my mechanic as soon as I touched down (I was sure there
> was a mechanical problem), he figured that with all of the right
> rudder
> needed to keep things straight, that my tailwheel just sent me to the
> right once it touched down.
>
> My question is, what was really going on here? Should my tailwheel
> have released (castored) when I touched down? Your thoughts are
> greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tom

[john smith]

Wheel landing or full-stall?
How wide was the runway?
Did you keep the rudder and aileron in or relax and neutralize the
controls once the wheels were on?
Did you suck the stick full back into your gut?
If you don't pull it all the way, you don't get enough pressure on the
tailwheel.

wrote:
> I am a long term lurker and have a question regarding landing tailwheel
> airplanes in a crosswind. I have about 250 hours in a Piper PA-12 Super
> Cruiser. The other day during a very routine crosswind landing I
> started heading for the weeds faster than I new what to do.
>
> I had a fairly gentle cross wind from the left. I had cancelled out all
> sideways drift by lowering my left wing and aligned the plane with the
> runway with right rudder. At touchdown, everything seemed perfect. That
> is when all hell broke loose. As soon as I touched down, I started a
> very fast turn to the right. At one point I was headed right between
> two runway light. As I was deciding that "between" was not a bad place
> to be, I finally managed to straighten everything out and managed to
> stay on the runway.
>
> In talking to my mechanic as soon as I touched down (I was sure there
> was a mechanical problem), he figured that with all of the right rudder
> needed to keep things straight, that my tailwheel just sent me to the
> right once it touched down.
>
> My question is, what was really going on here? Should my tailwheel
> have released (castored) when I touched down? Your thoughts are greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tom

[Mike O'Malley]

> wrote in message
...

<snip good story>

I've got about 1000 hours towing banners in PA-12's Great airplanes, does
yours have the O-320 conversion? I've always wondered how one would
perform with the big engine, and all the fairings that we left off ours :-)

Back to your question, I've had the same thing happen a couple of times on
landing. It was with a Scott tailwheel, and twice it was because the
steering springs had broken, leaving me with steering in only one direction
(the direction I WASN'T going) Though, I can remember a few times where,
not because of a crosswind (we had 75' trees on either side of our field,
right up to the runway, hence, no real crosswind) but because of a rutted
field, I caught enough of a sideload on the gear to break the tailwheel
loose to caster. Just rolling along, feeding in a little right rudder, then
BAM! Hard to the left.

Get's your attention in a hurry, that's for sure! About the only thing you
can try to do is straighten out with brake (if you're lucky enough to have
good ones; ours didn't) or give it a shot of power, and forward stick to try
and get the tail up and use the rudder to straighten out. Or, if you don't
have room, stomp on the inside brake and rudder and ground loop her before
hitting the treeline that defines the edge of the runway.

Great airplanes though; deadheading ours with the O-320 and a 74" cruise
prop, I could get about 90 mph at 2200 rpm. That's with no door, windows,
no wheel pants and no fabric over the gear. No cowling, and none of the
fairings at the strut attach points or covering the trim jackscrew.

I was hoping to get an answer from Dudley. Our plane has a Scott
tailwheel. When you talk about a hung up tailwheel spring, are you
talking about the small spring internal to the tailwheel. Should the
tailwheel release in such a situation?

As to your question regarding if the tailwheel "lead" my foot, I think
it may have. I was actually a little confused, when I think back, as to
what was going on with my feet! Not that there was any time to think
when it happened. Not sure if the swerve happened the exact instance the
tailwheel touched, but I think that is a good possibility.

Tom

In article t>,
says...
> If I remember right, (and that would be a minor miracle :-)the Cruiser
> came with a free castoring tailwheel I think, but it's been a long time
> :-)) Do you have a Scott or a Maule on the airplane, or the original
> tailwheel?
>
> If it's the original, with your experience and the wind you are
> describing, it sounds very much like a hung up tailwheel spring that
> kinked out on you then released as the full weight of the airplane
> centered in the "new direction". It's really hard to tell, and the
> answer would be in your memory on how the pedals felt at the exact
> instant the airplane swerved to the right. If you think back, did the
> pedal LEAD your foot, and did the airplane swerve at the exact instant
> the tail contacted the runway? This would be a clue if you could
> remember that!
> Dudley Henriques
> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> for email; take out the trash
>
>

In article >,
says...
> > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <snip good story>
>
> I've got about 1000 hours towing banners in PA-12's Great airplanes, does
> yours have the O-320 conversion? I've always wondered how one would
> perform with the big engine, and all the fairings that we left off ours :-)
>

Ours is pretty stock. Just put a new O-235-C1, 108 hp. Can cruise at
110 mph with not problem. I did my private in this plane and have all
but about 5 hours of my 250 hours in it. I also have about 100 hours in
gliders.

In article >,
says...
> Wheel landing or full-stall?
> How wide was the runway?
> Did you keep the rudder and aileron in or relax and neutralize the
> controls once the wheels were on?
> Did you suck the stick full back into your gut?
> If you don't pull it all the way, you don't get enough pressure on the
> tailwheel.
>

Landing was three point.
It was a big wide runway, 75 x 3500. Sussex, NJ (FWN)
Hard to recall, but I was probably not relaxed enough.
The stick probably could have been back further.

[Dudley Henriques]

I hesitate to try and get too specific with this because it's been so
long ago for me :-). I seem to remember we had a Scott 3200 tailwheel on
one of our line PA18's and it always functioned perfectly.
Did you try putting the tail up on a stand braced at the spring attach
points, then have someone check the tailwheel angle against the rudder
displacement as you work the pedals?.
I'd simply have the nearest A&P check it out. My system for these things
was to check them out backwards. I'd check everything to see if it was
working as it should, and if something didn't look right at that point,
I'd have the guys check it over. :-)
One thing flying wise, if you were holding in right rudder at contact,
the tailwheel would have been cocked right. If you were holding in that
rudder and came down solid on the tail at ground contact, it could have
temporarily jammed it right on you. I've seen this happen a few times.
Just a thought.
Good luck. I'm sure it's no biggie, but have it checked out anyway.
Dudley
> wrote in message
...
>I was hoping to get an answer from Dudley. Our plane has a Scott
> tailwheel. When you talk about a hung up tailwheel spring, are you
> talking about the small spring internal to the tailwheel. Should the
> tailwheel release in such a situation?
>
> As to your question regarding if the tailwheel "lead" my foot, I think
> it may have. I was actually a little confused, when I think back, as
> to
> what was going on with my feet! Not that there was any time to think
> when it happened. Not sure if the swerve happened the exact instance
> the
> tailwheel touched, but I think that is a good possibility.
>
> Tom
>
> In article t>,
> says...
>> If I remember right, (and that would be a minor miracle :-)the
>> Cruiser
>> came with a free castoring tailwheel I think, but it's been a long
>> time
>> :-)) Do you have a Scott or a Maule on the airplane, or the original
>> tailwheel?
>>
>> If it's the original, with your experience and the wind you are
>> describing, it sounds very much like a hung up tailwheel spring that
>> kinked out on you then released as the full weight of the airplane
>> centered in the "new direction". It's really hard to tell, and the
>> answer would be in your memory on how the pedals felt at the exact
>> instant the airplane swerved to the right. If you think back, did the
>> pedal LEAD your foot, and did the airplane swerve at the exact
>> instant
>> the tail contacted the runway? This would be a clue if you could
>> remember that!
>> Dudley Henriques
>> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>> for email; take out the trash
>>
>>

[James L. Freeman]

> wrote in message >...
> I had a fairly gentle cross wind from the left. I had cancelled out all
> sideways drift by lowering my left wing and aligned the plane with the
> runway with right rudder. At touchdown, everything seemed perfect. That
> is when all hell broke loose. As soon as I touched down, I started a
> very fast turn to the right. At one point I was headed right between
> two runway light. As I was deciding that "between" was not a bad place
> to be, I finally managed to straighten everything out and managed to
> stay on the runway.

It sounds a lot like what happened to a friend of mine in his Maule
M6-235 with a Scott 3200 tailwheel. He landed after a steep slip to
lose altitude and the airplane cut right and ran off the runway
almost immediately. He figured he screwed up but then it happened
again just like that a week later when he was slipping because of a
crosswind. It turned out to be a broken part inside the tailwheel
that caused it to turn with the rudder but not return when the rudder
was centered. It was the tailwheel, not the pilot. I'm sorry but I
don't know enough about it to be more specific than that.

[Cub Driver]

>One thing flying wise, if you were holding in right rudder at contact,
>the tailwheel would have been cocked right. If you were holding in that
>rudder and came down solid on the tail at ground contact, it could have
>temporarily jammed it right on you. I've seen this happen a few times.

I think I have experienced that. As another poster suggested, it's an
argument for wheelies!

Happily the number of instances is slight, but it seems to me that if
I am going to swerve on takeoff, it is always to the left, and if I am
going to swerve on landing, it is always to the right.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[PJ Hunt]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>

> but it seems to me that if
> I am going to swerve on takeoff, it is always to the left, and if I am
> going to swerve on landing, it is always to the right.

That makes since Dan since as you add power for take off, you create 3
factors trying to make your plane go to the left.

1) Torque
2) Corkscrew slipstream
3) Gyroscopic effect when you lift the tail.

All of these cause you to add just a little more right pedal (unless you
already have too much) to keep it straight down the centerline and not to
the left.

As you're landing, you're reducing power and speed which in turn reduces
each one of the above effects causing you to use less right pedal, or
perhaps even a little left pedal to keep it straight or from going to the
right.

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

[john smith]

Part of my preflight routine on my Champ is to lift the tail and grab
the tailsprings to assure the bolts are tight. A friend had a broken
leaf spring once from landing at an unimproved strip (a harvested
cornfield).
Tailwheel maintenance is something that must not be overlooked between
annuals.
In addition to the security of the tailwheel spring bolts, you can also
check the condition of the wheel bearings, hub and axle, and pivot, lock
mechanism and bearings. Don't forget to add grease to the fitting every
couple of months.


wrote:
> I am a long term lurker and have a question regarding landing tailwheel
> airplanes in a crosswind. I have about 250 hours in a Piper PA-12 Super
> Cruiser. The other day during a very routine crosswind landing I
> started heading for the weeds faster than I new what to do.
>
> I had a fairly gentle cross wind from the left. I had cancelled out all
> sideways drift by lowering my left wing and aligned the plane with the
> runway with right rudder. At touchdown, everything seemed perfect. That
> is when all hell broke loose. As soon as I touched down, I started a
> very fast turn to the right. At one point I was headed right between
> two runway light. As I was deciding that "between" was not a bad place
> to be, I finally managed to straighten everything out and managed to
> stay on the runway.
>
> In talking to my mechanic as soon as I touched down (I was sure there
> was a mechanical problem), he figured that with all of the right rudder
> needed to keep things straight, that my tailwheel just sent me to the
> right once it touched down.
>
> My question is, what was really going on here? Should my tailwheel
> have released (castored) when I touched down? Your thoughts are greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Tom

[Dudley Henriques]

It's a "sometimes issue" with some Scott's, but if you have an original
tailwheel on the Cub, I don't think that one malfunctions all that much,
at least I don'r ever remember having a problem with them.
Dudley
"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
>>One thing flying wise, if you were holding in right rudder at contact,
>>the tailwheel would have been cocked right. If you were holding in
>>that
>>rudder and came down solid on the tail at ground contact, it could
>>have
>>temporarily jammed it right on you. I've seen this happen a few times.
>
> I think I have experienced that. As another poster suggested, it's an
> argument for wheelies!
>
> Happily the number of instances is slight, but it seems to me that if
> I am going to swerve on takeoff, it is always to the left, and if I am
> going to swerve on landing, it is always to the right.
>
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
> the blog www.danford.net

[Brian Case]

Here is my scenero as to what often happens in this situation.

As you flare the Fuselage Blocks some of the airflow over the Rudder
thus reducing its effectiveness. So just as you touch down the Rudder
becomes less effective. If the Stick is not pulled all the way back
the Tailwheel is just barely pushing down on the pavement and
contributes very little to steering. And there you have it, a good
cross wind, reduced rudder effectiveness and an ineffective tailwheel
leads to loss of directional control. As the airplane slows down the
weight on the tailwheel increases and so does the steering
effectiveness, And you may regain control, before something bad
happens.

Wheel landings, keep the rudder more effective until you put the tail
down, But there is less going on when you put the tail down and you
are more likely to maintain directional control. But be sure to really
put it down, Pull all the way back on the stick.

Or just get the stick all the way back to start with.

Or, be more prepared for a go around. When a landings starts going
bad. Throw power at it. This will increase the rudder effectiveness,
plus switch your thinking from "got to land it" to "got to fly it."


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL


> wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> says...
> > Wheel landing or full-stall?
> > How wide was the runway?
> > Did you keep the rudder and aileron in or relax and neutralize the
> > controls once the wheels were on?
> > Did you suck the stick full back into your gut?
> > If you don't pull it all the way, you don't get enough pressure on the
> > tailwheel.
> >
>
> Landing was three point.
> It was a big wide runway, 75 x 3500. Sussex, NJ (FWN)
> Hard to recall, but I was probably not relaxed enough.
> The stick probably could have been back further.

[Dan Thomas]

john smith > wrote in message >...
> Part of my preflight routine on my Champ is to lift the tail and grab
> the tailsprings to assure the bolts are tight. A friend had a broken
> leaf spring once from landing at an unimproved strip (a harvested
> cornfield).
> Tailwheel maintenance is something that must not be overlooked between
> annuals.
> In addition to the security of the tailwheel spring bolts, you can also
> check the condition of the wheel bearings, hub and axle, and pivot, lock
> mechanism and bearings. Don't forget to add grease to the fitting every
> couple of months.

Amen to that. Add to it: There's a small steering lock inside the
tailwheel, and if it breaks, things can get interesting. Normally, the
pilot will usually notice the lack of directional control to one side
during taxi.
This pilot's problem likely came from a sticky tailwheel steering
pivot. The Scott needs lots of care. We run two of them on Citabrias,
and they're apart every 200 hours or so, sometimes more often. There's
a steering brake within the unit that's supposed to prevent shimmy
(which it doesn't), and if dirt or water gets into it, things get
sticky. The pilot will often complain of having to hold left rudder in
cruise, a sure sign of a sticky pivot. Using right rudder on takeoff
and climb puts the wheel to the right a bit, after which the steering
springs pull the rudder to the right and necessitating left pedal in
cruise.
Too much grease thru that fitting will foul the steering lock and
make it hard to unlock to caster the wheel.

Dan

[G.R. Patterson III]

Dan Thomas wrote:
>
> The Scott needs lots of care. <details deleted>

Wow. Glad I have a Maule.

George Patterson
My mother is 82 and she still doesn't need glasses.
Drinks right out of the bottle.

[Rick Macklem]

> wrote in message >...
> I am a long term lurker and have a question regarding landing tailwheel
> airplanes in a crosswind. I have about 250 hours in a Piper PA-12 Super
> Cruiser. The other day during a very routine crosswind landing I
> started heading for the weeds faster than I new what to do.

Sounds like you might have been bit by that nastly little beast called
"complacency". To me, the hint is "a very routine". I think you've
learned
that ain't necessarily the case:-) I've always found that a light, but
variable,
wind to be about the most difficult to land a tailwheel airplane in.
I've been
surprised by swings at least a few times on those days. When the wind
is strong
and from the left, for example, you know it's a crosswind from the
left. In light winds, it may be a left crosswind now, but a second
from now??

> I had a fairly gentle cross wind from the left. I had cancelled out all
> sideways drift by lowering my left wing and aligned the plane with the
> runway with right rudder. At touchdown, everything seemed perfect. That
> is when all hell broke loose. As soon as I touched down, I started a
> very fast turn to the right. At one point I was headed right between
> two runway light. As I was deciding that "between" was not a bad place
> to be, I finally managed to straighten everything out and managed to
> stay on the runway.
>
Sounds like you made a good save. Good job! As others have noted,
checking the tailwheel
for problems sounds like a good idea. About the most experienced
tailwheel
pilot I've known (with over 10,000hrs of tailwheel dual given) says "a
well
maintained tailwheel is the cheapest insurance you can buy". Having
said
that, I wouldn't be surprised if there's nothing wrong with it. A wild
guess
would be that the left crosswind died just before you touched down. At
that
point, your left wing down caused you to drift to the left and that,
combined
with the right rudder, caused the swing. In the end, sooner or later I
think
we'll all get a good swing (I know I have:-) and you pulled off the
save, which
is great. I suspect your save will happen more quickly next time.

Don't know if this'll help, rick
ps: The same instructor mentioned above, used to say that the most
inportant
pre-landing check he did was to "shake his head and remind himself
it's
time to focus on landing" when on final.

[Robert M. Gary]

> wrote in message >...
> I am a long term lurker and have a question regarding landing tailwheel
> airplanes in a crosswind. I have about 250 hours in a Piper PA-12 Super
> Cruiser. The other day during a very routine crosswind landing I
> started heading for the weeds faster than I new what to do.
>
> I had a fairly gentle cross wind from the left. I had cancelled out all
> sideways drift by lowering my left wing and aligned the plane with the
> runway with right rudder. At touchdown, everything seemed perfect. That
> is when all hell broke loose. As soon as I touched down, I started a
> very fast turn to the right. At one point I was headed right between
> two runway light. As I was deciding that "between" was not a bad place
> to be, I finally managed to straighten everything out and managed to
> stay on the runway.
>
> In talking to my mechanic as soon as I touched down (I was sure there
> was a mechanical problem), he figured that with all of the right rudder
> needed to keep things straight, that my tailwheel just sent me to the
> right once it touched down.
>
> My question is, what was really going on here? Should my tailwheel
> have released (castored) when I touched down? Your thoughts are greatly
> appreciated.

The tailwheel probably shouldn't have castored but usually has some
spring difference. I have had the tailwheel castor after landing.
Everything seems fine until you get down to about 10 knots and then
find you have 100% no directional control. Luckily, I got back on the
brakes soon. You want to ensure the castor doesn't break loose too
soon.

Could it be possible that you didn't have the nose properly lined up
so you actually touched down a bit in a crab? That can cause such
problems.

-Robert, tailwheel CFI

[Dave Stadt]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dan Thomas wrote:
> >
> > The Scott needs lots of care. <details deleted>
>
> Wow. Glad I have a Maule.
>
> George Patterson
> My mother is 82 and she still doesn't need glasses.
> Drinks right out of the bottle.

Then again my Scott 3200 has performed without a flaw for 500 hours with
just normal lube at annual.

Thanks to everyone that has provided some very constructive comments. I
certainly will be talking with my mechanic about looking at the
tailwheel in detail.

As for complaicency, as some suggested, I would say not during this
landing, but maybe a tiny bit on other landings. I was lined up as
straight as I ever have been. It could have been a gust as some said,
or a change in wind direction as I touched down. I definetly need to
make sure the stick is in my gut.

Thanks again,

Tom

[gregg]

> john smith > wrote in message
> >...
>> Part of my preflight routine on my Champ is to lift the tail and grab
>> the tailsprings to assure the bolts are tight. A friend had a broken
>> leaf spring once from landing at an unimproved strip (a harvested
>> cornfield).
>> Tailwheel maintenance is something that must not be overlooked between
>> annuals.
>> In addition to the security of the tailwheel spring bolts, you can also
>> check the condition of the wheel bearings, hub and axle, and pivot, lock
>> mechanism and bearings. Don't forget to add grease to the fitting every
>> couple of months.

Is there a document that describes how the tailwheel mechanism on a J-3 is
designed, and how it works? I've done a web search on it and didn't find an
explanation of the "detent".

Are most/all J-3 tailwheels the same design?

I took my first ride in a J-3, 2 weeks ago. I got a feel for the "detent"
during taxi practice. It SEEMED that if you didn't push on the rudder too
far, you stayed within the "detent" but if you pushed too far you popped it
out. I could feel when that happened.

Once it popped it seemed that no amount of pushing on the rudder had effect
- so I was castoring?

I got on the brake right away and got her straightened out, and wobbled the
rudders and it got "back" into detent. But I'd like to know, mechanically
what's happening. If there's a drawing I could look at, that might help.

thanks

[Cub Driver]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 02:28:05 -0900, "PJ Hunt"
> wrote:

>As you're landing, you're reducing power and speed which in turn reduces
>each one of the above effects causing you to use less right pedal, or
>perhaps even a little left pedal to keep it straight or from going to the
>right.

That's very likely the case.

In the most recent instance, the left rudder pedal had been re-rigged
since the last time I'd flown the Cub, or at least since last winter,
and the swage left a fuzz of wire bristles that kept catching on my
winter sneakers, which are high-top Nikes with a Gore-tex lining and
waffle-stomper soles. As a result, I simply couldn't use the left
brake, and I went off the runway into the grass after a three-point
landing. Coming home, I landed on two wheels, you bet!

The first thing I did when I got home was to get out the Leatherman
tool and bevel off the sole of both sneakers at the widest part of the
ball of the foot.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 02:57:43 GMT, gregg > wrote:

> Are most/all J-3 tailwheels the same design?

I don't think I've ever flown a Cub (there have been four over the
years) that had an original Piper tailwheel. As Dudley mentioned, many
or most are Scotts.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 02:57:43 GMT, gregg > wrote:

>I got on the brake right away and got her straightened out, and wobbled the
>rudders and it got "back" into detent. But I'd like to know, mechanically
>what's happening. If there's a drawing I could look at, that might help.

So would I!

Indeed, if anyone can point to a drawing, I'll post it on the Piper
Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com -- copyright permitting :)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[G.R. Patterson III]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> Indeed, if anyone can point to a drawing, I'll post it on the Piper
> Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com -- copyright permitting :)

For what it's worth, the Aircraft Spruce & Specialty catalogue has "exploded"
drawings and associated parts lists of Scott, Maule, and Lang tailwheels. My
Maule manuals have a large scale version of the drawing for the SFS-P8A
mechanism.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Thomas Ploch]

What I would really like to know, and don't seem to find anywhere, is
how is a tailwheel like a Scott SUPPOSED to work. In other words, is
the released condition only for performing tight ground manuvers or is
it expected to release or castor in other situations? Does it
release differently when there is weight on the tailwheel than when I
have the tail raised during preflight inspection? Overall, I would say
the functioning of entire tailwheel mechanism is a little bit of a
mystery.

[john smith]

The tailwheel should only castor when on the ground when sufficient
breakout force is exerted. In flight, the wheel detent should engage and
the wheel should move with the rudder. The tailwheel springs center the
tailwheel when the weight is off the wheel.

Thomas Ploch wrote:
> What I would really like to know, and don't seem to find anywhere, is
> how is a tailwheel like a Scott SUPPOSED to work. In other words, is
> the released condition only for performing tight ground manuvers or is
> it expected to release or castor in other situations? Does it
> release differently when there is weight on the tailwheel than when I
> have the tail raised during preflight inspection? Overall, I would say
> the functioning of entire tailwheel mechanism is a little bit of a
> mystery.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Thomas Ploch wrote:
>
> What I would really like to know, and don't seem to find anywhere, is
> how is a tailwheel like a Scott SUPPOSED to work. In other words, is
> the released condition only for performing tight ground manuvers or is
> it expected to release or castor in other situations? Does it
> release differently when there is weight on the tailwheel than when I
> have the tail raised during preflight inspection? Overall, I would say
> the functioning of entire tailwheel mechanism is a little bit of a
> mystery.

The Maule tailwheel has two locking pins between the rudder yoke and the wheel
yoke. The top of the wheel yoke has a cam that rests against these pins. If
enough sideways turning pressure is applied (as is the case when you use
differential brake to make a sharp turn), the cam pushes the pins up and the
wheel yoke castors. Since the cam has to push the back of the aircraft up to
move the pins, the less weight on the tailwheel, the easier it is to make the
wheel castor.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Dan Thomas]

(Thomas Ploch) wrote in message >...
> What I would really like to know, and don't seem to find anywhere, is
> how is a tailwheel like a Scott SUPPOSED to work. In other words, is
> the released condition only for performing tight ground manuvers or is
> it expected to release or castor in other situations? Does it
> release differently when there is weight on the tailwheel than when I
> have the tail raised during preflight inspection? Overall, I would say
> the functioning of entire tailwheel mechanism is a little bit of a
> mystery.

It will caster if it's forced past a certain angle of pivot. An
internal mechanism disengages the steering arm from the wheel fork.
This is designed to occur at a point well past the angle that the
rudder/wheel steering springs will take it at full rudder deflection.
You wouldn't want it to disengage before full rudder travel,
certainly, as you might be trying to stop a bad swing on the runway
using the rudder, and the wheel needs to be engaged.
The wheel should disengage freely enough if you are taxiing and
apply full rudder and some brake. The springs will let the wheel pivot
far enough to let the lock disengage. Weight on the wheel shouldn't
make much difference, except that the steering spring length might
shorten a bit and make disengagement easier when the tail pushes down
on the wheel, flexing the tailspring.

Dan

[Robert M. Gary]

(Thomas Ploch) wrote in message >...
> What I would really like to know, and don't seem to find anywhere, is
> how is a tailwheel like a Scott SUPPOSED to work. In other words, is
> the released condition only for performing tight ground manuvers or is
> it expected to release or castor in other situations? Does it
> release differently when there is weight on the tailwheel than when I
> have the tail raised during preflight inspection? Overall, I would say
> the functioning of entire tailwheel mechanism is a little bit of a
> mystery.


It should take enough force that a cross wind landing SHOULD NOT
unlock it. You really need it locked during landing because its your
only way to control direction once the air stops flowing over the
tail. When they start to wear out, they may break loose too easily and
result in possible ground loops. The only time I ever ground looped a
taildragger was as a result of this. The outside main did come off the
ground but I was slow enough that the wing tip did not touch the
ground. I should have been quicker on the brakes.

-Robert

[Cub Driver]

On 30 Nov 2004 08:13:16 -0800, (Thomas Ploch) wrote:

>What I would really like to know, and don't seem to find anywhere, is
>how is a tailwheel like a Scott SUPPOSED to work. In other words, is
>the released condition only for performing tight ground manuvers or is
>it expected to release or castor in other situations? Does it
>release differently when there is weight on the tailwheel than when I
>have the tail raised during preflight inspection? Overall, I would say
>the functioning of entire tailwheel mechanism is a little bit of a
>mystery.

I think it's ground handling. If I push the Cub at the inside brace
(my shoulder next to the fuse), it travels in a straight line, so the
detent is sufficient to keep the tailwheel locked. When I push at the
tiedown point, it turns instantly and without resistance.

I often pick up the tail and rotate the tailwheel, usually to
straighten it out for taxi.

I think but am not sure that on the two occasions when the plane
swerved on takeoff (they were different aircraft), it was because the
tailwheel wasn't lined up straight ahead. I'm not sure of this. On one
occasion there was a crosswind.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Pokekey]

Cub Driver wrote:
> On 30 Nov 2004 08:13:16 -0800, (Thomas Ploch) wrote:
>
>
>>What I would really like to know, and don't seem to find anywhere, is
>>how is a tailwheel like a Scott SUPPOSED to work. In other words, is
>>the released condition only for performing tight ground manuvers or is
>>it expected to release or castor in other situations? Does it
>>release differently when there is weight on the tailwheel than when I
>>have the tail raised during preflight inspection? Overall, I would say

I think you want it to never pop out during taxi EXCEPT when you are
spinning the plane in a tight circle. Some compromise tension has to be
chosen which will stay locked during normal taxi and pop out for swivel
with out too much effort. Early in my tail wheel training I had a day
in a Maule with a tail wheel that didn't lock very well. Very tricky to
control.

Tom