Blackbird Questions, Anyone?

[Jay Honeck]

Bill Fox, project coordinator for the Lockheed Skunkworks (and the guy who
donated all the unbelievably cool stuff in our "Blackbird Suite") is going
to be visiting us again soon.

Bill actually ran Area 51 for a few years, and was instrumental in the
development and deployment of the SR-71 (and a whole slew of other stuff
that hasn't been declassified yet.) from Kelly Johnson's Lockheed
Skunkworks.

I've made a list of questions to ask him when he gets here, but if you have
any questions about the Blackbird, the U-2, or any other Lockheed Skunkworks
stuff, post 'em here and I'll ask him for ya!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Beckman]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Qo6vd.561259$D%.17160@attbi_s51...
> Bill Fox, project coordinator for the Lockheed Skunkworks (and the guy who
> donated all the unbelievably cool stuff in our "Blackbird Suite") is going
> to be visiting us again soon.
>
> Bill actually ran Area 51 for a few years, and was instrumental in the
> development and deployment of the SR-71 (and a whole slew of other stuff
> that hasn't been declassified yet.) from Kelly Johnson's Lockheed
> Skunkworks.
>
> I've made a list of questions to ask him when he gets here, but if you
> have any questions about the Blackbird, the U-2, or any other Lockheed
> Skunkworks stuff, post 'em here and I'll ask him for ya!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Jay,

Please ask Bill if the story regarding the 71's designation and LBJ is
true...

Supposedly, the original official designation should have been RS-71 for
"reconisance - strategic" but LBJ muddled the words and called it an SR-71
when it was unveiled to the public...

No one wanted to correct the Prez so it stuck...True? False?

Thanks,

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[Casey Wilson]

> I've made a list of questions to ask him when he gets here, but if you
> have any questions about the Blackbird, the U-2, or any other Lockheed
> Skunkworks stuff, post 'em here and I'll ask him for ya!

(1) Christopher Boyce first exposed to Area 51 In the book "The Falcon and
the Snowman." The facility has been referred in various texts as Dreamland.
What other code names were assigned to the facility? What name does it go by
today?

(2) How often are the (were the) tires changed on the SR-71? In other words,
how many landings could they take?

(3) How many Blackbirds are still operational?

(4) How many YF-12s were built. And do any exist today?

[[email protected]]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote:
> Please ask Bill if the story regarding the 71's designation and LBJ is
> true...
>
> Supposedly, the original official designation should have been RS-71 for
> "reconisance - strategic" but LBJ muddled the words and called it an SR-71
> when it was unveiled to the public...
>
> No one wanted to correct the Prez so it stuck...True? False?

The placard beside the SR-71 at the March AFB museum in Riverside tells
that story, and if I recall correctly, it also said that they change the
tires after every six landings.

[Mr Page]

> Bill Fox, project coordinator for the Lockheed Skunkworks (and the guy who
> donated all the unbelievably cool stuff in our "Blackbird Suite") is going
> to be visiting us again soon.
>
> Bill actually ran Area 51 for a few years, and was instrumental in the
> development and deployment of the SR-71 (and a whole slew of other stuff
> that hasn't been declassified yet.) from Kelly Johnson's Lockheed
> Skunkworks.
>
> I've made a list of questions to ask him when he gets here, but if you
have
> any questions about the Blackbird, the U-2, or any other Lockheed
Skunkworks
> stuff, post 'em here and I'll ask him for ya!

Where do they keep the UFOs ?

[Casey Wilson]

> wrote in message
...
> "Jay Beckman" > wrote:
>> Please ask Bill if the story regarding the 71's designation and LBJ is
>> true...
>>
>> Supposedly, the original official designation should have been RS-71 for
>> "reconisance - strategic" but LBJ muddled the words and called it an
>> SR-71
>> when it was unveiled to the public...
>>
>> No one wanted to correct the Prez so it stuck...True? False?
>
> The placard beside the SR-71 at the March AFB museum in Riverside tells
> that story, and if I recall correctly, it also said that they change the
> tires after every six landings.

Thanks for the information. Is it okay for Jay to ask the questions,
anyway?

[Jay Honeck]

> Supposedly, the original official designation should have been RS-71
for
> "reconisance - strategic" but LBJ muddled the words and called it an
SR-71
> when it was unveiled to the public...
>
> No one wanted to correct the Prez so it stuck...True? False?

According to Bill, this is 100% true. He still laughs about it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

1. According to Bill, they called it either Area 51 or "The Ranch".

2. The tires were changed as needed (if a pilot got on the brakes too
hard) but averaged every 6 to 8 landings. They didn't have much tread,
and were made from a special high-temperature rubber by Goodyear -- who
"gave us a pretty good deal on the price..." (As compared to the
Blackbird's special hydraulic fluid, that cost $100 per quart, in the
early 1960s! It had to withstand 650 degrees at 3500 psi, and was
developed by the Louisiana State Engineering School.)

3. There are no Blackbirds operational. Clinton pulled the final plug
on the project.

4. There were 3 YF-12s built. The most accessible one is at
Wright-Pat, in the US Air Force museum.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

1. According to Bill, they called it either Area 51 or "The Ranch".

2. The tires were changed as needed (if a pilot got on the brakes too
hard) but averaged every 6 to 8 landings. They didn't have much tread,
and were made from a special high-temperature rubber by Goodyear -- who
"gave us a pretty good deal on the price..." (As compared to the
Blackbird's special hydraulic fluid, that cost $100 per quart, in the
early 1960s! It had to withstand 650 degrees at 3500 psi, and was
developed by the Louisiana State Engineering School.)

3. There are no Blackbirds operational. Clinton pulled the final plug
on the project.

4. There were 3 YF-12s built. The most accessible one is at
Wright-Pat, in the US Air Force museum.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

Bill says that in all of his years there, he never got to see any
aliens.

He says the whole UFO legend began because the Air Force didn't want to
admit that they were sending mylar balloons (then new technology) over
the Soviet Union. When people found the remains of a balloon -- which
looked like sci-fi space suit material -- they denied knowing about
them, which, of course, simply inflamed the curiosity of everyone.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jon Woellhaf]

I think Johnson did us a great favor. SR-71 sounds much cooler than RS-71.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> > Supposedly, the original official designation should have been RS-71
> for
> > "reconisance - strategic" but LBJ muddled the words and called it an
> SR-71
> > when it was unveiled to the public...
> >
> > No one wanted to correct the Prez so it stuck...True? False?
>
> According to Bill, this is 100% true. He still laughs about it.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Pavelow]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>> I've made a list of questions to ask him when he gets here, but if you
>> have
>> any questions about the Blackbird, the U-2, or any other Lockheed
>> Skunkworks
>> stuff, post 'em here and I'll ask him for ya!
>
>
> is it true that a SR-71 drone was once lost over hostile territory while
> flying
> a spionage mission? and is it true that several years later this drone was
> given
> back as a present during a state visit?
>
> (story was told at the Pima Air and Space Museum in Tucson, AZ)
>
> #m
> --
> Buck Fush!

IIRC according to a biography of the Skunk Works by Ben Rich a former head
of said Plant, it is. The drone was not actually an SR-71 but small scale
version which incorporated many of the SR-71s features including its shape.
It was launched by piggy backing off an SR-71 however and crashed over
Communist East Asia (I forget where and don't have the book to hand at the
moment) and part of the skin was given to an American delegation by a
Russian delegation who thought it was the current level of Stealth
technology at the time.

HTH and if you want more info. let me know and I'll and dig the book out.


--
Richard

I know the Brit military, and take it from me that they make better friends
than enemies. The Royal Navy is well respected by our guys.

Tom Clancy
A.B.T-C
20 February 2004


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[Jay Beckman]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>> Supposedly, the original official designation should have been RS-71
> for
>> "reconisance - strategic" but LBJ muddled the words and called it an
> SR-71
>> when it was unveiled to the public...
>>
>> No one wanted to correct the Prez so it stuck...True? False?
>
> According to Bill, this is 100% true. He still laughs about it.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

Hehehe...cool.

Thanks!

Jay B

[Pavelow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> 1. According to Bill, they called it either Area 51 or "The Ranch".
>
"The Ranch" came about when Kelly Johnson was looking for somewhere on
behalf of the CIA to train pilots on the U2. It was called "The Ranch" to
make it sound attractive to the personnel who would be posted there despite
the fact it was a desolate place with small rocks being blown around as if
they were tumbleweeds.


--
Richard

I know the Brit military, and take it from me that they make better friends
than enemies. The Royal Navy is well respected by our guys.

Tom Clancy
A.B.T-C
20 February 2004


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.809 / Virus Database: 551 - Release Date: 09/12/2004

[Jim Fisher]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Bill says that in all of his years there, he never got to see any
> aliens.
>
> He says the whole UFO legend began because the Air Force didn't want to
> admit that they were sending mylar balloons (then new technology) over
> the Soviet Union. When people found the remains of a balloon -- which
> looked like sci-fi space suit material -- they denied knowing about
> them, which, of course, simply inflamed the curiosity of everyone.

Bullsquat! You are part of the conspiracy, Jay.

The truth is out there!

--
Jim Xisher

[Jay Honeck]

> IIRC according to a biography of the Skunk Works by Ben Rich a former head
> of said Plant, it is. The drone was not actually an SR-71 but small scale
> version which incorporated many of the SR-71s features including its
> shape. It was launched by piggy backing off an SR-71 however and crashed
> over Communist East Asia (I forget where and don't have the book to hand
> at the moment) and part of the skin was given to an American delegation by
> a Russian delegation who thought it was the current level of Stealth
> technology at the time.

(If this answer came through twice, my apologies. I posted my first answer
using "Google Groups" which -- even in its latest incarnation -- is the
worst piece of sh*t I've ever used... But I digress.)

According to Bill:

This story is not true. No D-21 drones were ever lost over enemy territory,
despite the fact that they routinely crossed hostile countries. The drone
would be launched at altitudes of 70+ thousand feet, and would fly using its
ramjet at speeds of over Mach 3.5. Incredibly, it had a range of over
2200 miles.

When it got back over "friendly" territory (usually the Sea of Japan) it
would "kick out" its payload -- a 6' x 4' x 3' box -- which would float down
under three parachutes. The payload would then be snagged by a C-130, and
the D-21 would be destroyed remotely, blown into a million pieces.

The only accident Bill reported was when one of the three 'chutes failed to
open, and the payload dropped much faster than expected. The C-130 missed
catching it, and it impacted the sea. Two American destroyers in the area
began a search, with one finally putting a tow-line on the payload.
Amazingly, while under tow, the OTHER destroyer managed to cross the
towline, breaking it, sending the payload to the bottom.

The D-21 program was axed by Kelly Johnson after a fatal accident about 50
miles off the coast of California. Apparently the D-21 experienced an
"unstart" at release, causing it to settle back down on top of the mother
ship, breaking the SR-71 in two. One of the pilots was killed when he broke
his arm while ejecting, which tore his flight/space suit, which then filled
with water after he landed in the water, drowning him.

From that point on, D-21s were only launched from B-52s. They were attached
to a missile to accelerate them to speeds where their ramjet could ignite,
not unlike the recent NASA scramjet test -- although much slower. (If Mach
3+ can be called "slow"...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[john smith]

The National Museum of the United States Air Force (formerly the United
States Air Force Museum) in Dayton Ohio has a YF-12.

Casey Wilson wrote:
> (4) How many YF-12s were built. And do any exist today?

[Jay Honeck]

Usually when pressed about the fabled Aurora project (the purported
replacement for the SR-71, with rumored Mach 4+ capability), Bill gets sort
of vague, with a somewhat wistful look in his eye, and artfully changes the
subject.

Today, however, he mentioned something that caught my ear, and made me perk
up. I'm paraphrasing what he said, as I was writing as fast as I could
scribble, so I may have gotten a few details wrong, but here goes:

Apparently the Air Force built a huge and extensive air base in Tonopah,
Nevada, exclusively for the F-117 Stealth program. New hangars, testing
facilities, living quarters, runways -- all were constructed at huge
expense, in the absolute middle of nowhere for this ultimate Top Secret
stealth fighter.

And then the base was "abandoned". Without fanfare the F-117s were quietly
transferred to Holliman Air Force Base, where they remain based to this day.

What's at Tonopah now? No one will say for sure, but according to Bill,
that's where he thinks the fabled Aurora was tested. All he would say after
that was that they "apparently were having a lot of trouble with the
engines" -- the first time he has actually addressed the Aurora in "real"
terms.

When pressed further, he related the following story.

One night, while at his retirement home in Charles City, IA, he saw an
aircraft fly overhead late at night. It was making sequential sonic booms,
and the engine exhaust was sequential fireballs, the proverbial "rings on a
rope" contrail that the Aurora has been rumored to produce. He said he
couldn't determine the altitude due to darkness, but he said it passed over
so fast that he called a couple of his buddies who were still working in the
program, to see if what he was seeing was the real deal.

At this point, Bill changed the subject...again!

When pressed, all he would say is that he thinks the program is probably
moribund, and that you "just don't hear much about Aurora anymore..." He
had a strange, wistful look in his eye...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Bill says that in all of his years there, he never got to see any
> aliens.
>
> He says the whole UFO legend began because the Air Force didn't want to
> admit that they were sending mylar balloons (then new technology) over
> the Soviet Union. When people found the remains of a balloon -- which
> looked like sci-fi space suit material -- they denied knowing about
> them, which, of course, simply inflamed the curiosity of everyone.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Hehehe...cool.
>
> Thanks!

Other cool tidbits from Bill:

Regarding the D-21 drone: They had many problems with the engine
"unstarting" which, in Bill's opinion, could have easily been solved by
installing a "translating spike" in the engine intake, like on the SR-71
itself. The D-21's engine designer was opposed to the plan, which would
have added weight to the drone, and successfully argued against it --
resulting in the unnecessary loss of several drones, and a couple of SR-71s.

Re: The P-80 program. In 1944 they sent 5 P-80s, built virtually by hand,
from scratch at the Skunkworks (their first plane was the P-38 Lightning,
BTW), to Italy. Because the engines only lasted about 5 hours before
destroying themselves, the pilots were instructed to go "fly the planes near
the enemy, but don't engage them." After each mission, the tail numbers
were changed, so that the Germans would believe that we had dozens of jet
fighters in theater!

Re: Security. At Lockheed's Burbank, CA facility, they were testing the
SR-71's fuel tank and the explosive nature of the special fuel the Blackbird
used. They drained a tank, leaving fumes in it, and heated it to hundreds
of degrees, to simulate in-flight conditions. It, of course, exploded,
blowing the building to bits and starting a raging fire.

When the fire department responded, they ran up against the 10-foot,
razor-wire-topped fence -- and guards who would NOT let them inside.
Apparently no one had thought to give a security clearance to the fire
department -- even though it was LOCKHEED'S fired department! The firemen
were left to aim their hoses at whatever could be reached -- from outside
the fence. (According to Bill, the water caused extensive damage to their
testing equipment -- he was working with Honeywell at that time on the
Blackbird's autopilots...)

Re: Fly by wire. The Blackbird had fly-by-wire capability AND conventional
push-rod and cable controls. Most of the time it was flown by the
autopilots, using the fly-by-wire servos, but the pilots liked knowing that
things were still hooked up conventionally if all the electrons failed.

Re: The pilots. Several pilots achieved over 1000 hours -- at Mach 3 or
higher! This plane was USED, a LOT.

Re: Flying the plane. It was dangerous. They lost 15 of them, primarily to
"pilot error." They lost several after refueling, when the pilots would
try to zoom to altitude, trying to get over weather or whatever. The
pilots would pull back too aggressively, which would cause the SR-71 to
pitch up violently. If the plane was going fast enough, it would break in
half right behind the cockpit. In one accident, the back seater hit the
water dead, while the front seat guy was badly injured. It was determined
that during the aircraft breakup, the right wing somehow hit the fuselage
where the "RESCUE" handles were located. When these handles are pulled, the
crew's straps are disengaged, so that rescuers can pull them out cleanly.

Apparently the wing triggered this mechanism, cutting the crew's straps.
This allowed them to tumble around the cockpit unrestrained. When the plane
pitched up, the pilots were exposed to first positive and then negative Gs.
In the meantime, the pilot's canopy came off, while the back seater's
remained in place. When the plane went into negative Gs, the pilot was
thrown clear, while the back seater was thrown violently into the canopy,
breaking his neck. On the SECOND tumble, the back seater's canopy came off,
and he, too, was thrown clear.

The parachute sequence was automatic, so he floated gently down, quite dead.
As Bill said "It took us quite a while to figure that one out..."

Re: Killing the SR-71 project. We would have found the Scud missiles in
Iraq easily, if the Blackbird was still in service. Its cameras could look
obliquely at things, seeing into caves and canyons that couldn't be viewed
from outer space. In his opinion, Clinton killing the program was "putting
politics ahead of the Nation"...

Re: Building the Blackbird today. He flatly says it couldn't be done. In
the time it took to build the SR-71 (two years), we wouldn't even have the
first piece manufactured, thanks to increased "government oversight".

This is illustrated by the following. The P-80, from start to first
flight, took 90 days. The U-2, from start to first flight, took 6 months.
The SR-71, from start to first flight, took two years. Each plane had a
little more "government help" -- and took much longer to complete.

He said by the time he worked on the Stealth program -- which took years --
there were 50 government workers, doing what one guy did on the SR-71
program. He said the meetings that were held to satisfy all these guys
("Each one had to ask a question to justify his existence, which then
required a formal, written response that could take anywhere from ten days
to six months...") were taking most of his time by the time he retired.

Re: The danger of working on the program. Many pilots were lost in this
super secret program, without fanfare. But what few people remember is how
dangerous the plane was to work on. The hydraulic system, specially
designed for high temperatures, was operated at 3350 psi. The hydraulic
fluid, if it leaked, would vaporize as it came out at 650 degrees. By the
time the plane cooled down, the leak could no longer be found -- so it HAD
to be tested at high temperatures and pressure.

On one occasion, a technician had the system pressurized and heated, and
found the leak he was looking for. Stupidly, he instinctively put his
gloved hand over the leak, which instantly bored a hole clean through his
glove -- and his hand.

I meet some pretty interesting people at the inn -- but none more
interesting than Bill.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Fry]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

> Bill actually ran Area 51 for a few years, and was instrumental in the
> development and deployment of the SR-71

Which was developed in the late 1950s I think, which makes ol' Bill
rather old indeed.

[Jeff Franks]

Thanks Jay!

This has been a VERY interesting thread. I would have never thought to let
us common folk ask questions for through you. Thanks for thinking of us!

jf


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Qo6vd.561259$D%.17160@attbi_s51...
> Bill Fox, project coordinator for the Lockheed Skunkworks (and the guy who
> donated all the unbelievably cool stuff in our "Blackbird Suite") is going
> to be visiting us again soon.
>
> Bill actually ran Area 51 for a few years, and was instrumental in the
> development and deployment of the SR-71 (and a whole slew of other stuff
> that hasn't been declassified yet.) from Kelly Johnson's Lockheed
> Skunkworks.
>
> I've made a list of questions to ask him when he gets here, but if you
have
> any questions about the Blackbird, the U-2, or any other Lockheed
Skunkworks
> stuff, post 'em here and I'll ask him for ya!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Jon Woellhaf]

Jay,

Please consider publishing a long, long interview with Bill Fox in AOPA
Pilot. The very interesting tidbits you've given us make me want MUCH MORE!

Thanks!

Jon

[Jon Woellhaf]

Or better yet, on your web site!

"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote in message
news:wKuvd.232586$HA.167020@attbi_s01...
> Jay,
>
> Please consider publishing a long, long interview with Bill Fox in AOPA
> Pilot. The very interesting tidbits you've given us make me want MUCH
MORE!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jon
>
>

[Jay Beckman]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:ektvd.189728$V41.138784@attbi_s52...
>> Hehehe...cool.
>>
>> Thanks!
>
> Other cool tidbits from Bill:
>
>
> Re: Security. At Lockheed's Burbank, CA facility, they were testing the
> SR-71's fuel tank and the explosive nature of the special fuel the
> Blackbird used. They drained a tank, leaving fumes in it, and heated it
> to hundreds of degrees, to simulate in-flight conditions. It, of course,
> exploded, blowing the building to bits and starting a raging fire.
>

Hey Jay,

Double check something else with Bill if you still have him available...

RE: JP-12:

So, they fill the SR-71 on the ground and it would leak like a sieve until
it got up to altitude and expansion of the airframe "sealed" the leaks
(necessitating an immediate tanker join once airborne...)

So here's the kicker, I recall reading that you could make a torch out of a
T-Shirt on a stick, light it, dunk it in a bucket of JP-12 and the JP-12
would do nothing but extinguish your torch...JP-12 was anything BUT
explosive and it required immense pressures to get it to ignite (fumes, of
course, are a different kettle of fish.)

Jay B

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:K3vvd.4793$2r.2971@fed1read02...
> [...]
> So here's the kicker, I recall reading that you could make a torch out of
> a T-Shirt on a stick, light it, dunk it in a bucket of JP-12 and the JP-12
> would do nothing but extinguish your torch...JP-12 was anything BUT
> explosive and it required immense pressures to get it to ignite

Regular gasoline is basically the same. The main difference would be vapor
pressure; there's a decent amount of gasoline vapor anywhere there's liquid
gasoline. But the liquid gasoline itself is very resistant to ignition
(ditto other fuels).

With decent ventilation, you could put out a match by throwing it into a
bucket of gasoline.

In other words, your recollection is correct, but it's not really the
mind-blowing news flash one might think it is. :)

Pete

[Jay Honeck]

> Double check something else with Bill if you still have him available...

Sorry -- Bill departed yesterday, after spending two nights in "his" suite.
I've already thought of ten new questions for his next visit!

> So here's the kicker, I recall reading that you could make a torch out of
> a T-Shirt on a stick, light it, dunk it in a bucket of JP-12 and the JP-12
> would do nothing but extinguish your torch...JP-12 was anything BUT
> explosive and it required immense pressures to get it to ignite (fumes, of
> course, are a different kettle of fish.)

True. As Bill put it, JP-12 was the "worst diesel fuel around" -- it just
wouldn't burn.

This turned out to be a good thing on many occasions.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>> Bill actually ran Area 51 for a few years, and was instrumental in the
>> development and deployment of the SR-71
>
> Which was developed in the late 1950s I think, which makes ol' Bill
> rather old indeed.

Ol' Bill is in his 80s, does 3 flights of stairs just fine, drives around
the country in a brand new Cadillac, and travels everywhere with his girl
friend.

He may be physically old, but he ain't "old"...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Please consider publishing a long, long interview with Bill Fox in AOPA
> Pilot. The very interesting tidbits you've given us make me want MUCH
> MORE!

It's funny -- Bill will talk to anyone, anytime, about his experiences --
yet few have heard of him. After he left Iowa City he was driving back to
Charles City to give a talk to a church group about his days at Lockheed.

Here's a guy who has seen and achieved amazing things, and won world-renown
in the "black program" community -- yet he's out talking to churches, for
free. It boggles the mind.

He recently received a prestigious award from the Blackbird community,
normally reserved for pilots. You can read more about it here:
http://www.aleinn.com/black_projects/a12_40years.html
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[John Clear]

In article <4jBvd.568589$D%.328171@attbi_s51>,
Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>True. As Bill put it, JP-12 was the "worst diesel fuel around" -- it just
>wouldn't burn.
>
>This turned out to be a good thing on many occasions.

The exploding fuel mentioned up thread might be the TEB (Triethylborane).

From an old Mary Shafer post (http://yarchive.net/air/sr71.html):

MS> TEB is the "igniter" for JP-7. You can't get JP-7 to burn without it
MS> in the SR-71, as the ignition of JP-7 takes a higher temperature than
MS> is conveniently produced otherwise. You drop in a shot of TEB, which
MS> bursts into very hot flames the minute it has any oxygen, and this
MS> ignites the JP-7. Once ignited, the JP-7 keeps burning. The plane
MS> has twelve shots of TEB (either total or per engine, I forget), using
MS> one shot for each engine start and one for each burner light.

There are lots more interesting details about TEB at the url above.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.panix.com/~jac

[Corky Scott]

On 13 Dec 2004 08:39:41 -0800, "Jay Honeck" >
wrote:

>Bill says that in all of his years there, he never got to see any
>aliens.
>
>He says the whole UFO legend began because the Air Force didn't want to
>admit that they were sending mylar balloons (then new technology) over
>the Soviet Union. When people found the remains of a balloon -- which
>looked like sci-fi space suit material -- they denied knowing about
>them, which, of course, simply inflamed the curiosity of everyone.

Regretfully, there was more to it than mylar balloons. The Air Force
was using animals in tests, including monkeys, chimps and bears. Some
of the flights involved chimps in pressure suits. They'd subjected
these animals to all kinds of (I'm going to use the adjective
"hideous") experiments including ejection from high altitude, rides in
rocket sleds and much more. These creatures didn't just die, they
died ugly, burned and deformed. Some were found by civilians before
the Air Force personnel could get to them. Guess what a burned and
deformed chimp wearing a space suit in a strange looking capsule looks
like, or looks like to a civilian who did not know what was going on?

This information came from one of those "Discovery" types of programs,
but they showed copies of recently disclosed previously classified
documents that supported the assertions of animal use.

Corky Scott

[Jay Beckman]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
> news:K3vvd.4793$2r.2971@fed1read02...
>> [...]
>> So here's the kicker, I recall reading that you could make a torch out of
>> a T-Shirt on a stick, light it, dunk it in a bucket of JP-12 and the
>> JP-12 would do nothing but extinguish your torch...JP-12 was anything BUT
>> explosive and it required immense pressures to get it to ignite
>
> Regular gasoline is basically the same. The main difference would be
> vapor pressure; there's a decent amount of gasoline vapor anywhere there's
> liquid gasoline. But the liquid gasoline itself is very resistant to
> ignition (ditto other fuels).
>
> With decent ventilation, you could put out a match by throwing it into a
> bucket of gasoline.
>
> In other words, your recollection is correct, but it's not really the
> mind-blowing news flash one might think it is. :)
>
> Pete
>

Oh well,

I remember it as a "NO SH*T!??!" moment at the time. :O)

Lots of things in life are probably not as big a deal as one remembers them
at the time.

Regards,

Jay B

[gatt]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:EOsvd.256610

> Apparently the Air Force built a huge and extensive air base in Tonopah,

Slightly off-topic. My father-in-law served in the Oregon Air Guard as a
helicopter crewman. On their way south they tried to see how close they
could get to A-51. They got within distant viewing range and, any closer
than that, he said, they might as well have been Communist.

On the way back they were allowed to stop at Tonopah, however, and he
described seeing a B-25 in one of the older hangars there, looking by the
cobwebs and bird **** like it hadn't been touched in decades, but still in
mint condition.

> What's at Tonopah now? No one will say for sure, but according to Bill,
> that's where he thinks the fabled Aurora was tested.

Awesome! I wonder how much of that research went into the X-34a? Did he
happen to mention Pumpkinseed? If you're able to talk with him again,
that's one for him. IIRC, that was the external-combustion project (where
they injected the fuel right onto the surface of the wing at the appropriate
mixture, and ignited it there.)

This is great stuff, Jay! THANKS for including us.

-c

[Big John]

Jay

Ask Bill if one or more SR-71's were lost during the Shuttle explosion
after being launched in Florida.

Have been told by a mission controller this was true. Something like
the explosion took all the oxy out of the air and '71 flame out and
couldn't get restarted or something. This guy was on a console but not
a pilot.

Big John
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~`

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:38:56 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>Bill Fox, project coordinator for the Lockheed Skunkworks (and the guy who
>donated all the unbelievably cool stuff in our "Blackbird Suite") is going
>to be visiting us again soon.
>
>Bill actually ran Area 51 for a few years, and was instrumental in the
>development and deployment of the SR-71 (and a whole slew of other stuff
>that hasn't been declassified yet.) from Kelly Johnson's Lockheed
>Skunkworks.
>
>I've made a list of questions to ask him when he gets here, but if you have
>any questions about the Blackbird, the U-2, or any other Lockheed Skunkworks
>stuff, post 'em here and I'll ask him for ya!

[Big John]

Jay B

Story I always heard was that they took off with a light load of fuel
due to either W & B or structural limits and tanked shortly after
take off for the initial phase of mission where they might be required
to tank several times.

Leaks yes.

Big John
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:43:23 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
wrote:

>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>news:ektvd.189728$V41.138784@attbi_s52...
>>> Hehehe...cool.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>
>> Other cool tidbits from Bill:
>>
>>
>> Re: Security. At Lockheed's Burbank, CA facility, they were testing the
>> SR-71's fuel tank and the explosive nature of the special fuel the
>> Blackbird used. They drained a tank, leaving fumes in it, and heated it
>> to hundreds of degrees, to simulate in-flight conditions. It, of course,
>> exploded, blowing the building to bits and starting a raging fire.
>>
>
>Hey Jay,
>
>Double check something else with Bill if you still have him available...
>
>RE: JP-12:
>
>So, they fill the SR-71 on the ground and it would leak like a sieve until
>it got up to altitude and expansion of the airframe "sealed" the leaks
>(necessitating an immediate tanker join once airborne...)
>
>So here's the kicker, I recall reading that you could make a torch out of a
>T-Shirt on a stick, light it, dunk it in a bucket of JP-12 and the JP-12
>would do nothing but extinguish your torch...JP-12 was anything BUT
>explosive and it required immense pressures to get it to ignite (fumes, of
>course, are a different kettle of fish.)
>
>Jay B
>

[Morgans]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote

> Regular gasoline is basically the same. The main difference would be
vapor
> pressure; there's a decent amount of gasoline vapor anywhere there's
liquid
> gasoline. But the liquid gasoline itself is very resistant to ignition
> (ditto other fuels).
>
> With decent ventilation, you could put out a match by throwing it into a
> bucket of gasoline.
>

I always wanted to try that, but I could never figure out what "decent
ventilation" was, and didn't feel like trying without knowing, for sure. :)
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

You can read more about it here:
> http://www.aleinn.com/black_projects/a12_40years.html
> --
> Jay Honeck

Why does anyone use a black background like that page? It is totally
unreadable on my crappy monitor.
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Honeck]

> This is great stuff, Jay! THANKS for including us.

No problem. I've learned so much from this group over the years, it seems
only right to give some back....
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Ask Bill if one or more SR-71's were lost during the Shuttle explosion
> after being launched in Florida.

Sorry, Big John -- that'll have to wait for Bill's next visit. He's off to
Charles City, and then to the desert Southwest for the winter...

Haven't seen you here for a while... How're you doing?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Big John]

Jay

Still in long recovery from heart surgery. Had/have Afib and they
burned the inside of upper chamber out with RF energy vs cutting with
a knife. May never recover :o( Have fallen 5-6 times in past month-six
weeks just trying to walking around the house.

Also loss of feeling (dead nerves) in my fingers make typing a chore.

Have pretty much gone to the lurker stage.

First Cold, Cold, Cold snap of year and freeze last night. Nothing
like IA of course where I grew up and you know about.

And a very Merry Xmas to you and yours.

Older than mud-------Big John

I can remeber going to silent movies and when the first 'talkie' came
out.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 14:09:24 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> Ask Bill if one or more SR-71's were lost during the Shuttle explosion
>> after being launched in Florida.
>
>Sorry, Big John -- that'll have to wait for Bill's next visit. He's off to
>Charles City, and then to the desert Southwest for the winter...
>
>Haven't seen you here for a while... How're you doing?

[gatt]

Wow, I'm still amazed that you got to talk to this guy. Imagine all the Art
Bell / Coast to Coast/ X-Files / Conspiracy theory / Shadow Government /
Aliens-at-Area 51 geeks out there who would peel their skin off to see this
fellow!

He's The Man in all those Sci Fi movies where the spooks run around Area 51,
or the sinister project director and his henchmen show up at some crashsite,
remove all the evidence and the witnesses too.

I wonder what it's like to go through life knowing that there's a whole
subset of America who doesn't even know about you and yet there are movies,
radio programs, websites, TV shows and books written in which you're
universally the Chief Spook.

-c

[Jay Honeck]

> Still in long recovery from heart surgery. Had/have Afib and they
> burned the inside of upper chamber out with RF energy vs cutting with
> a knife. May never recover :o( Have fallen 5-6 times in past month-six
> weeks just trying to walking around the house.

Geez, take it easy! As you know, falling down has a way of reducing your
odds of getting back up. They say your balance is the last thing to come
back after major surgery...

Sounds like maybe you need to get up in a Decathlon for some "unusual
attitude recovery" practice... I'll bet we could rustle up a few volunteers
here to take you up?!

;-)

> First Cold, Cold, Cold snap of year and freeze last night. Nothing
> like IA of course where I grew up and you know about.

Yep -- got down to 6 above zero here yesterday, with stiff winds making if
feel much colder. Today started off cold, but a fresh wind out of the south
has it warmed all the way up to 30 degrees. Man, it feels like summer,
after yesterday! (We flew over to Dubuque for breakfast -- did 180 knots
up, and 102 knots back...)

> And a very Merry Xmas to you and yours.

And to you, Big John. All of us here really appreciate your wisdom, good
humor, and wonderful stories.

Blue skies, my friend!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[mike regish]

Sroll over it like you're going to "copy" it. It changes to a white
background with blue lettering.

mike regish

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote
>
> You can read more about it here:
>> http://www.aleinn.com/black_projects/a12_40years.html
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>
> Why does anyone use a black background like that page? It is totally
> unreadable on my crappy monitor.
> --
> Jim in NC
>
>

[Corky Scott]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 03:44:10 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>Re: The P-80 program. In 1944 they sent 5 P-80s, built virtually by hand,
>from scratch at the Skunkworks (their first plane was the P-38 Lightning,
>BTW), to Italy. Because the engines only lasted about 5 hours before
>destroying themselves, the pilots were instructed to go "fly the planes near
>the enemy, but don't engage them." After each mission, the tail numbers
>were changed, so that the Germans would believe that we had dozens of jet
>fighters in theater!

Jay, I've been wondering about this since I first read it three days
ago.

What did they mean "fly the planes near the enemy"? Does this mean
the enemy on the ground? I'd guess so because by that time in the
war, there were precious few German fighter aircraft flying in Italy.

So if that's what the instructions meant, how were the German ground
troops supposed to see the tail numbers? The P-80 pilots weren't
stupid enough to be stooging around low and slow in front of the
fierce AAA the Germans were always extremely willing to put up, were
they? I'd assume they would be flying combat patrols, which would be
conducted above 10,000 feet. That's a little high to be reading tail
numbers.

If the instructions were intended for German aircraft encountered in
the air, then I really don't see how this would work. The P-80 pilots
would literally have to fly formation with the Germans in order for
them to see and read the tail numbers. Actually the P-80's would have
to be slightly ahead. Doesn't sound like a healthy place to be.

So I guess I'm saying this whole scenario sounds like a tall tale.

Corky Scott

[BUFF5200]

The numbers I have seen is that the SR-71 had a max. weight
of 78,000Kg (in flight) but a max. take off weight of only
56,000Kg. And even at that weight they were rotating at
235 knots.

Regarding leaks, the SR-71's tanks leaked like a sieve on
the ground, but sealed up tight as soon as they got up to
speed and the wings heated up.

Lockheed never came up with a sealant for the tanks that
would tolerate the heat loading AND the 8" expansion of
the airframe in flight.

Big John wrote:
> Jay B
>
> Story I always heard was that they took off with a light load of fuel
> due to either W & B or structural limits and tanked shortly after
> take off for the initial phase of mission where they might be required
> to tank several times.
>
> Leaks yes.
>
> Big John
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:43:23 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>>news:ektvd.189728$V41.138784@attbi_s52...
>>
>>>>Hehehe...cool.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks!
>>>
>>>Other cool tidbits from Bill:
>>>
>>>
>>>Re: Security. At Lockheed's Burbank, CA facility, they were testing the
>>>SR-71's fuel tank and the explosive nature of the special fuel the
>>>Blackbird used. They drained a tank, leaving fumes in it, and heated it
>>>to hundreds of degrees, to simulate in-flight conditions. It, of course,
>>>exploded, blowing the building to bits and starting a raging fire.
>>>
>>
>>Hey Jay,
>>
>>Double check something else with Bill if you still have him available...
>>
>>RE: JP-12:
>>
>>So, they fill the SR-71 on the ground and it would leak like a sieve until
>>it got up to altitude and expansion of the airframe "sealed" the leaks
>>(necessitating an immediate tanker join once airborne...)
>>
>>So here's the kicker, I recall reading that you could make a torch out of a
>>T-Shirt on a stick, light it, dunk it in a bucket of JP-12 and the JP-12
>>would do nothing but extinguish your torch...JP-12 was anything BUT
>>explosive and it required immense pressures to get it to ignite (fumes, of
>>course, are a different kettle of fish.)
>>
>>Jay B
>>
>
>

[Morgans]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:%YAwd.276074$R05.155922@attbi_s53...

> Sroll over it like you're going to "copy" it. It changes to a white
> background with blue lettering.
>
> mike regish

Well, I did not "scoll over it, so I tried "scrolling" over it, <g> and the
change was fantastic.

All kidding aside, thanks. I learned my one new thing for today.
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Honeck]

> So I guess I'm saying this whole scenario sounds like a tall tale.

Personally, I think so, too.

But I told it exactly the way Bill relayed it to me. (He wasn't in Italy
himself, so I suppose there is the slight chance that this story has taken
on mythic, some might say heroic proportions in the re-telling over the
decades? :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> But I told it exactly the way Bill relayed it to me. (He wasn't in Italy
> himself, so I suppose there is the slight chance that this story has taken
> on mythic, some might say heroic proportions in the re-telling over the
> decades? :-)

You might say that; I would say there's an absolute certainty of it.

By November of 1944, only two XP-80 prototypes had left the ground, and the
second one crashed in late October, killing the test pilot. Lockheed produced
and delivered 45 P-80s before the war ended. Only two of these made it to Europe
before war's end. Both flew test runs in Italy. They were deliberately kept far
away from any chance of encounters with enemy aircraft.

Information taken from the Wikipedia.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.