Rough Field Landings

[[email protected]]

Here I am with the big stick again. I can't recall anyone discussing
rough area landings or hostile terrain landings in a long time. For
example, forced to land (no matter the reason-you supply one) and you
are headed into a corn field, or a rice paddy, or trees, or perhaps
mountain slopes. Well lets take it to the swamps where you have both
trees and water? Hmmmm, how about on city streets?
Anyone ever paid much attention to the field surfaces as you drive
along? Or the wires that cross streets and highways? Or traffic flows
and bridge heights? These are all things that ag pilots look at almost
unconciously and deal with on a regular basis.
How about you? Sure it may never happen but statistics don't mean a
thing when you are tagged, IT!
With winter on us and snow on the ground, can you tell what is under
that white mantle? Can you tell how deep it is? Are you prepared to
stay warm until you can get out or until help arrives? What a bummer to
make a good landing on a frozen lake and then freeze to death because
you didn't have any warm gear with you. Like the two blondes who froze
to death at the drive in when they went to see "Closed For The Winter".
(sorry I couldn't help myself)
I won't bore you with the places where I have had to land, or when I
rescued people who had landed in nasty places. What I can do is share
some of the information I learned from it.
Now I'm gonna sit back and wait to see who is interested and wants to
participate in an exchange of knowledge and ideas.
Ol Shy & Bashful - The CFII with the big stirring stick

[Icebound]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Here I am with the big stick again. I can't recall anyone discussing
> rough area landings or hostile terrain landings in a long time. For
> example, forced to land (no matter the reason-you supply one) and you
> are headed into a corn field, or a rice paddy, or trees, or perhaps
> mountain slopes.

Okay, I'll bite first.

I'm over unsettled wilderness and there is an unbroken stand of 30 foot
evergreens as far as the eye can see. I'm gonna have to put a C172 down
into that.

Tell me how to do it.

Now, my uninformed personal opinion would be to flare as if I intended to
land on the tree tops, and as I start to sink, pull up more than usual to
try to mush into the trees in almost a tail stand. Is that possible?

[john smith]

The nice thing about some kinds of evergreens is that they bend over to
let you down easy. Of course, when they spring back up, it makes it
harder to see the downed aircraft except from above.

Icebound wrote:
> I'm over unsettled wilderness and there is an unbroken stand of 30 foot
> evergreens as far as the eye can see. I'm gonna have to put a C172 down
> into that.
> Tell me how to do it.
> Now, my uninformed personal opinion would be to flare as if I intended to
> land on the tree tops, and as I start to sink, pull up more than usual to
> try to mush into the trees in almost a tail stand. Is that possible?

[zatatime]

On 14 Dec 2004 05:57:17 -0800, wrote:

>Here I am with the big stick again. I can't recall anyone discussing
>rough area landings or hostile terrain landings in a long time. For
>example, forced to land (no matter the reason-you supply one) and you
>are headed into a corn field, or a rice paddy, or trees, or perhaps
>mountain slopes. Well lets take it to the swamps where you have both
>trees and water? Hmmmm, how about on city streets?
>Anyone ever paid much attention to the field surfaces as you drive
>along? Or the wires that cross streets and highways? Or traffic flows
>and bridge heights? These are all things that ag pilots look at almost
>unconciously and deal with on a regular basis.
>How about you? Sure it may never happen but statistics don't mean a
>thing when you are tagged, IT!
>With winter on us and snow on the ground, can you tell what is under
>that white mantle? Can you tell how deep it is? Are you prepared to
>stay warm until you can get out or until help arrives? What a bummer to
>make a good landing on a frozen lake and then freeze to death because
>you didn't have any warm gear with you. Like the two blondes who froze
>to death at the drive in when they went to see "Closed For The Winter".
>(sorry I couldn't help myself)
>I won't bore you with the places where I have had to land, or when I
>rescued people who had landed in nasty places. What I can do is share
>some of the information I learned from it.
>Now I'm gonna sit back and wait to see who is interested and wants to
>participate in an exchange of knowledge and ideas.
>Ol Shy & Bashful - The CFII with the big stirring stick

I haven't seen half of what you have, and this type of problem does
cross my mind. Specifically upslope/downslope landings, trees, corn,
and city streets. Normal training does not cover much of this, and
while I like to think I've thought about it alot, hearing from someone
who's done it would help my knowledge alot (I hope).

Look forward to your post.
z

[Jim Burns]

Forget about the airplane, concentrate on saving lives.

Slowest possible foreward speed at touch down, no matter what the surface
is. Maintain control and do not stall the aircraft! Falling out of the sky
30 feet above the ground will kill passengers faster than a controlled crash
straight ahead.

If you have a choice land into the wind and or uphill if possible.

Reduce sources of ignition. Turn off fuel and electrical as much as
possible.

Prepare your passengers for impact after touchdown. Seatbelts tight, knees
up, wrap your arms around your knees, face down into your thighs. Your
objective is to keep your passengers and yourself: 1)alive 2)conscious and
3)mobil, in that order.

Land "with" the rows, furrows, ditch, traffic etc.

Do what ever it takes to reduce your chances of rolling or tumbling the
aircraft. Keep the centerline of the aircraft pointed in the direction that
you are traveling.

Look for power poles, not lines. You're able to see poles a lot sooner
than you'll ever see the lines. Do not forget about guy wires.

Land "behind" the house rather than in front. The odds are better that the
power lines enter from the front.

If you try to land on a road and there is a house or building nearby, odds
are 50/50 that there will be power lines crossing the road.

Open a door prior to touchdown. A bent airframe, deep snow, or mud, may
prevent you from opening it after you stop moving.

Realize that freshly plowed fields not only have furrows but tend to be
soft. A gear up landing (if possible) may prevent your gear from digging in
and cartwheeling your airplane.

Think about why a potential landing spot is in the condition that it is.
Many times areas of long grass aren't mowed for a reason.... rocks? swamp?.
Avoid them unless you are familiar with the area (and if you have a choice).

Look beyond your landing spot. You may be proud of the approach and
touchdown that you make... right up to the point that you skid into a
drainage ditch.

There are some great survival books and articles available. Read a couple
then buy a survival kit to keep in the plane. Remember the name of the game
is survival, not luxury, carry things that will keep you warm and dry. Don't
forget to carry water on every flight.

Jim




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[Maule Driver]

Glider pilots pay a lot of attention to landings in rough and unusual
places. Especially racers and record chasers. Off field landings are not
necessarily 'emergencies' and in fact qualify as normal operations in many
cases. But they are always risky and often are just a half step away from
real emergencies if gets carried away with trying to stay up or make a goal.

Farmers fields are the main venue - agriculture makes cross country soaring
possible. You can learn so much about farming like, "why did the farmer
choose to make this field a pasture rather than plow it?" Or the classic,
"why is there only one cow?"

Roads are always tempting but are full of obstructions let alone traffic,
especially with 50' wings. "What is the key document needed to avoid making
a normal landing a 7 o'clock news emergency?"

Tree tops can be soft but the trip down is the challenge - whether the a/c
goes all the way down on impact or you need to climb down, or worse lowered
down with a rope around your waist (I have pics). "What causes the most
damage in a tree top landing?"

Anyway, sounds like Ag pilots and glider guider share a fascination with
figuring out, "what would I do if I had to put down here?" Fun stuff!

Seriously, one does have to make a very important decision during one of
these events... how hard do you want to work to save the aircraft?
Surviveability is almost always doable but airworthiness afterwards takes
some effort and often some risk.

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Here I am with the big stick again. I can't recall anyone discussing
> rough area landings or hostile terrain landings in a long time. For
> example, forced to land (no matter the reason-you supply one) and you
> are headed into a corn field, or a rice paddy, or trees, or perhaps
> mountain slopes. Well lets take it to the swamps where you have both
> trees and water? Hmmmm, how about on city streets?
> Anyone ever paid much attention to the field surfaces as you drive
> along? Or the wires that cross streets and highways? Or traffic flows
> and bridge heights? These are all things that ag pilots look at almost
> unconciously and deal with on a regular basis.
> How about you? Sure it may never happen but statistics don't mean a
> thing when you are tagged, IT!
> With winter on us and snow on the ground, can you tell what is under
> that white mantle? Can you tell how deep it is? Are you prepared to
> stay warm until you can get out or until help arrives? What a bummer to
> make a good landing on a frozen lake and then freeze to death because
> you didn't have any warm gear with you. Like the two blondes who froze
> to death at the drive in when they went to see "Closed For The Winter".
> (sorry I couldn't help myself)
> I won't bore you with the places where I have had to land, or when I
> rescued people who had landed in nasty places. What I can do is share
> some of the information I learned from it.
> Now I'm gonna sit back and wait to see who is interested and wants to
> participate in an exchange of knowledge and ideas.
> Ol Shy & Bashful - The CFII with the big stirring stick
>

[[email protected]]

In addition to those great comments, there are a couple of more items
you rarely see mentioned.

Before landing, have everyone take off their headphones! People
who've been in wrecks have mentioned how much it hurt when the
earphones flew off during an abrupt stop.

I once read some study the USAF did. IIRC, it said that 45 seconds of
engine-off gliding was enough to cool down the typical single-engine
motor and exhaust to the point that fire was much less likely. I have
no idea what to do with that info, however <g>.

Kev

[Brian]

I would be concerned about spinning it into ground in this scenerio. I
think it would be better to maintain you minimum approach speed and
try to fly it between two trees so that the wings absorb most of the
energy.

Brian

[Jim Burns]

You'd have to weigh the risk of falling out of the trees against the risk of
fire created by the fuel spilling out of the wings. I guess the worst would
be to be stuck in the trees, wings partially ripped off, and on fire. What
ever your choice, minimum approach speed is the key.
Jim

"Brian" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I would be concerned about spinning it into ground in this scenerio. I
> think it would be better to maintain you minimum approach speed and
> try to fly it between two trees so that the wings absorb most of the
> energy.
>
> Brian
>


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[[email protected]]

To reply to the original question.
You are -never- going to get a 100% cover of trees.
There will be land slips on the hills, ridges that have no or very few
trees on them.
In forestry bush you will have fire breaks and access roads.
Rivers and streams are always there as open areas.

There is the old adage about the most useless things in aviation.
Runway behind you, altitude above you and fuel in the bowser.

When you do a crosscountry -always- look for suitable sites for
emergency landings. it may well save your life one day...

[[email protected]]

Thank your for a very informative reply, Jim. I need to look for more
information on survival articles/books that you refer to because I did
not think of some of the issues you mentioned. One probably gets only
one chance to do it right.

Deep

[kage]

Like this?

http://tinyurl.com/4ekj5

Karl
"Curator" N185KG

[Jim Burns]

Selwaykid's comment about ag pilots is dead on. I've grown up on and still
work on a vegetable farm and have a close relationship with our ag pilots.
I've seen several make emergency landings off airport. Most walk away
shaken, but not stirred. Those that do not constantly pay attention to
where they would land sometimes do not walk away. They have to have a
landing spot in mind at all times because unlike GA pilots, their first move
isn't to "pick" or head to a landing spot. It's dump the load, climb, then
head to the landing spot that they already have in their mind.

Next time you get around a "good" ag pilot, not just a wind bag, pull him
aside and ask him what he watches for and keeps in the back of his head at
all times.

Jim

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thank your for a very informative reply, Jim. I need to look for more
> information on survival articles/books that you refer to because I did
> not think of some of the issues you mentioned. One probably gets only
> one chance to do it right.
>
> Deep
>


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[[email protected]]

Hello Icebound...
Well, do you know how tall the trees are? How big around are they? Are
they on a slope? Every situation is different but its nice to have some
kind of plan to work with. The fallacy of landing in the tops of trees
(from personal experience) is the aircraft is probably very near stall
speed. As soon as you touch a tree top the speed is very quickly
dragged into the stall range and the aircraft will head down. In my
case as a wing tip dragged across a tree top, the aircraft slewed
abruptly and started nearly nose down before it slammed into a big Oak
right on the nose. Then it settled nearly flat to the ground, or on top
of the smaller trees that got compressed as we settled. (in a C-150 at
night-1967)
In many parts of the world, those trees can be 200' tall and if you
stall out in the tops, you are headed for a hard fall. After seeing
many crashes into the trees, and in discussions with pilots who have
participated in the crash, or the rescue, most of us were in agreement
that its better to aim for a point near the ground and let the inertia
of the aircraft plow its way down and crash under control. even with
light aircraft you can make a pretty good hole in the trees. Survival
is pretty much a crap shoot in any event and I'm sure we all have seen
some miraculous stories...at least I have, of surivors of unsurvivable
crashes with no more than some bruises and lingering nightmares. I was
part of a search for a pilot in the Amazon in the early 60's when he
lost his engine about :05 out. We searched for him for two weeks and
never saw a sign. He came stumbling out of the jungle on day 15 non the
less for wear and tear. The trees there were at least 200' tall and
dense undergrowth. He worked his way back by trying to follow the
sounds of the occasional aircraft taking off. He had aimed for the base
of the trees and when we went back to the crash site could see his
crash path. From the air it was nearly impossible to spot.
So, you take your chances and hope for the best.
Ol Shy & Bashful

[Maule Driver]

Wow Mr Burns! Never seen so much in one place so well said. In particular:
>
> Do what ever it takes to reduce your chances of rolling or tumbling the
> aircraft. Keep the centerline of the aircraft pointed in the direction
that
> you are traveling.
>
> Look for power poles, not lines. You're able to see poles a lot sooner
> than you'll ever see the lines. Do not forget about guy wires.
>
> Land "behind" the house rather than in front. The odds are better that
the
> power lines enter from the front.
>
> If you try to land on a road and there is a house or building nearby, odds
> are 50/50 that there will be power lines crossing the road.
>
> Think about why a potential landing spot is in the condition that it is.
> Many times areas of long grass aren't mowed for a reason.... rocks?
swamp?.
> Avoid them unless you are familiar with the area (and if you have a
choice).
>
Not adding any value here, just repeating because it's all good.

[[email protected]]

Z
Slope landings are tricky. Upslope or downslope....the problem is
trying to determine the slope angle. So, having done a lot of crop
dusting on mountain slopes with really severe angles, may I offer the
following....
There are those who say land upslope. Problem is the slope may be so
severe that you get nearly into a 60-90 approach angle! You won't know
until its too late. If you fly cross slope until the very last of your
controllable flying speed, you can make a hard turn upslope and at
least know, or guess, how hard the impact is going to be. To turn
downslope is putting yourself on a piece of junk headed down hill at
40mph or faster and it could go even much faster with only something
very ugly to stop you.
Corn often grows 10" or more and it is tough as hell...will drag you to
stop in an amazing short distance. Same is true of many crops like
cotton, oats, cane, sunflowers, etc. Once you touch the top of the crop
you are going to touch down blind. If you are lucky, you'll touch down
with the rows and minimum damage. If not.......hmmmmmm
On city streets, the biggest problem is wires crossing everywhere. In
my crop dusting career I've gone thru at least 18 wires and logged each
of them. Certainly the aircraft were equipped with wirecutter devices,
but still, there are wires that will not pay attention to modern
technology and kill you. Start to look at wires as you drive around and
see what you would do to get over/under them. That is the best advice I
can give on that. With my experience I know I can duck under or flare
over depending on the circumstances and not be afraid of being so close
to the ground when it isn't an airport. Same for going under bridges or
overpasses. Traffic kind of determines what to do in those cases.
I've done a lot of slope landings with helicopters and believe me, just
a couple degrees can make a huge difference. At phyxed wing speeds it
is nearly impossible to discern those angles unless you are flying
cross slope. The stress level with be off the scale by then so you have
to have the plan worked out ahead of time and then hope you can follow
it.
If my reply gets out of sequence please bear with me. The thoughts get
so excited and out of step. I'll be glad to elaborate if I have
confused you.
Merry Christmas and fly safe
Ol Shy & Bashful

[[email protected]]

Jim
You sound like an ag pilot! Excellent advice. I'm glad this post got
the activity it has and hope it will save someone in the future if
faced with an emergency off airport landing. Your input is certainly
valid and valuable.
Cheers
Rocky aka SelwayKid (from the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness of Montana)

[[email protected]]

Maule Driver
You certainly bring up cogent points and its a pleasure to see some
coherent thinking on a subject that too many just brush off with the
thought, "It won't happen to me". In the 40 years I have been
instructing, I've had several former students track me down to tell me
that something I told them or insisted on saved their lives later in
their careers. You cannot imagine how gratifying that is for me as an
instructor.
Again, I make no claims to be the ace of the base. I'm just a pilot who
has made so many mistakes and errors in judgement that I survived that
it makes the average pilot look like Chuck Yeager! Pretty difficult for
him and Hoover to admit mistakes though........<ggg>
I hope this keeps on going as a learning tool even for me. I've never
flown a glider or an ultra light. I'll do both before I head west.
Best Regards
Rocky

[Trent Moorehead]

> wrote in message
oups.com...

<snip>

> Corn often grows 10" or more and it is tough as hell...will drag you to
> stop in an amazing short distance.

EXCELLENT thread!

This reminds me of my checkride when the DE asked me to perform an emergency
landing. I picked a field full of corn since there were no cleared fields
around. He let me get so close that I clearly remember seeing individual
leaves on the plants. Heck, I was slipping the plane too. He asked me if I
thought we would stop before we reached the other side of the field and I
replied that we would stop quickly due to the corn. With that, he had me
abort the landing and go on to the next task.

This comes to mind vividly because this was the closest I have come to
actually landing out. I was probably 80' above the corn and quickly dropping
when we aborted and in my mind, we were going in. I was slipping to make
sure that we hit the corn near the field's edge. Many times I have imagined
what it would have been like to continue that landing.

Has anyone here actually landed in a cornfield like this?

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[Maule Driver]

Good point about difficult to find. I remember a glider crash into the
trees during a competition in the Pennslyvania appalacians. We were on the
ground listening to the pilot try to direct overhead searching aircraft and
on the ground walking searchers to where he was hung in the trees. Finally
he had to get himself out and down and walk out. The bright white Glider
was never seen from the air. Had to walk back in the next day to get it.

Perhaps one of the more important tasks is making sure that ELT works. (not
req'd in gliders)

> wrote in message
ups.com...
.. I was
> part of a search for a pilot in the Amazon in the early 60's when he
> lost his engine about :05 out. We searched for him for two weeks and
> never saw a sign. He came stumbling out of the jungle on day 15 non the
> less for wear and tear. The trees there were at least 200' tall and
> dense undergrowth. He worked his way back by trying to follow the
> sounds of the occasional aircraft taking off. He had aimed for the base
> of the trees and when we went back to the crash site could see his
> crash path. From the air it was nearly impossible to spot.
> So, you take your chances and hope for the best.
> Ol Shy & Bashful
>

[C Kingsbury]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Here I am with the big stick again. I can't recall anyone discussing
> rough area landings or hostile terrain landings in a long time. For
> example, forced to land (no matter the reason-you supply one) and you

> trees and water? Hmmmm, how about on city streets?

That's the one I think about a lot, where I am in the megalopolis known as
the Northeast corridor.

Highways? Nearly always too crowded for my tastes. Last thing I want to do
is cause an accident on the ground. For my money the big parking lots seem
like the best bet. Malls, office parks, warehouses, there's almost always
one nearby. Most of the traffic isn't moving and good chance you'll get at
least 300' or so before you have to decide what you want to hit first, and
by then my 172 will hopefully be going slowly enough to make it survivable.
If it's a weekend the office parks and warehouses will be pretty empty so
your odds improve a bit and some of them offer 500+ feet of free run and may
even allow saving the airplane, though I've conditioned myself to not think
of that.

What I do wrong is not be so prepared for what happens afterward. 90% of the
time I figure someone on the ground will see me come down and I won't be
outside too long before help shows up, but 10% of the time it might be quite
different. Just walking ten minutes from my house to Dunkin' Donuts this AM
I was freezing my butt off, and wearing the same clothes I typically fly in.

-cwk.

[Maule Driver]

In gliders the mantra was, "land upwind and upslope but upslope is more
important. Down slope is to be avoided."

The challenge is to understand just how steep an approach is required and
how much energy is required to flare properly for steeper slopes. It's not
a minimum speed approach and you must have enough pitch authority to round
out. Much more than one would originally think for steeper slopes.

The rollout or skid will be much shorter which is always good. And it's
easier to hit a spot. Every foot of ground covered after touchdown runs the
risk of hitting something you didn't see. I routinely drove the nose in the
ground with the brake to minimize rollouts over unknown ground.

But for moderate slopes, my experience is that upslope is strongly preferred
even with a moderate tailwind.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Z
> Slope landings are tricky. Upslope or downslope....the problem is
> trying to determine the slope angle. So, having done a lot of crop
> dusting on mountain slopes with really severe angles, may I offer the
> following....
> There are those who say land upslope. Problem is the slope may be so
> severe that you get nearly into a 60-90 approach angle! You won't know
> until its too late. If you fly cross slope until the very last of your
> controllable flying speed, you can make a hard turn upslope and at
> least know, or guess, how hard the impact is going to be. To turn
> downslope is putting yourself on a piece of junk headed down hill at
> 40mph or faster and it could go even much faster with only something
> very ugly to stop you.
> Corn often grows 10" or more and it is tough as hell...will drag you to
> stop in an amazing short distance. Same is true of many crops like
> cotton, oats, cane, sunflowers, etc. Once you touch the top of the crop
> you are going to touch down blind. If you are lucky, you'll touch down
> with the rows and minimum damage. If not.......hmmmmmm
> On city streets, the biggest problem is wires crossing everywhere. In
> my crop dusting career I've gone thru at least 18 wires and logged each
> of them. Certainly the aircraft were equipped with wirecutter devices,
> but still, there are wires that will not pay attention to modern
> technology and kill you. Start to look at wires as you drive around and
> see what you would do to get over/under them. That is the best advice I
> can give on that. With my experience I know I can duck under or flare
> over depending on the circumstances and not be afraid of being so close
> to the ground when it isn't an airport. Same for going under bridges or
> overpasses. Traffic kind of determines what to do in those cases.
> I've done a lot of slope landings with helicopters and believe me, just
> a couple degrees can make a huge difference. At phyxed wing speeds it
> is nearly impossible to discern those angles unless you are flying
> cross slope. The stress level with be off the scale by then so you have
> to have the plan worked out ahead of time and then hope you can follow
> it.
> If my reply gets out of sequence please bear with me. The thoughts get
> so excited and out of step. I'll be glad to elaborate if I have
> confused you.
> Merry Christmas and fly safe
> Ol Shy & Bashful
>

[[email protected]]

C Kingsbury wrote :
>Highways? Nearly always too crowded for my tastes. Last thing I want
to do
>is cause an accident on the ground. For my money the big parking lots
seem
>like the best bet. Malls, office parks, warehouses, there's almost
always
>one nearby.

I used to get a little nervous flying across Phoenix under the class
B shelf at ~1400 ft. AGL until I realized that I was almost always
within gliding distance of an 18 hole golf course, just about anywhere
in the city. There are close to 200 of them. Oddly enough, over the
years we've had more planes land on city streets and highways than on
golf courses.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[G.R. Patterson III]

Trent Moorehead wrote:
>
> Has anyone here actually landed in a cornfield like this?

Dick Stark related one off-field landing by an amphibious seaplane.

"The plane dropped into the corn with a horrible, hollow-sounding 'WHUMP' about
60 feet short of the runway, or in other words, about 30 feet into the corn. The
corn was so tall that the plane sank out of sight.

THE FIELD EXPLODED!! Fourteen zillion panic-stricken crows erupted in a thousand
directions. It was as if a dense black cloud was spewing from the bowels of the
earth.

'CAW! CAW! CAW!' It sounded like an enormous 1000 pound bird had suddenly
started screaming. Some of the crows were flapping their wings so frenziedly as
they made their aerial exit, they left loose feathers fluttering in their wake.
Others seemed to be leaving small thin vapor trails behind them. They were very
upset.

About two seconds after the terrified horde of crows exited from the field,
there was the roar of an outraged Lycoming engine. The plane's bow appeared,
surging from the corn like the African Queen emerging from the reeds."

The damage was impressive. The main gear was torn off, as were the wing struts.
The wings had folded back, destroying the empennage. And it had been a
fabric-covered aircraft.

Stark also says "A cornfield is probably the worst type of crop you can choose
to land in. The rock-hard ears of field corn will totally destroy any plane that
dares to take them on."
It beats dying trying to save the aircraft, though.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Jim Burns]

>
> Has anyone here actually landed in a cornfield like this?
>
> -Trent

Here's what can happen when you get too close to the corn. Two things to
note about this report
1) the NOSE of the aircraft impacted the ground (although this is a tail
dragger, corn can "pull" you down and potentially flip you on your head once
you get into it)
2)aircraft sustained substantial damage yet the pilot was not injured. A
full military shoulder harness could very well be the reason the pilot was
not injured.

CHI03LA272
On August 19, 2003, at 1700 central daylight time, a Piper PA-25, N4346Y,
operated by Reabe Flying Service, sustained substantial damaged on impact
with a corn crop and terrain near Brandon, Wisconsin, during a spray pass
over the field. The commercial pilot was not injured. The 14 CFR Part 137
aerial application flight departed from Waupun Airport (WI07), Waupun,
Wisconsin, on a local flight. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed. No
flight plan was filed.

The pilot reported that approximately 70 gallons of chemical remained as he
was making the aerial swath before the accident. He reported the winds were
from the south at 9 knots gusting to 14 knots, and the temperature was 88
degrees Fahrenheit. He reported the airplane was descending over a treeline
heading southbound when it experienced moderate turbulence. He reported that
he was "unable to stop the descent before the airplane made contact with the
corn." The airplane continued it's descent and the nose of the airplane
impacted the ground and the airplane skidded to a stop. The pilot reported
there was no mechanical malfunction of the airplane prior to the accident.




Pilot walks away from plane crash


By Lee Reinsch
the reporter staff

The pilot of a Waupun crop duster that crashed late Tuesday afternoon walked
away uninjured, according to Fond du Lac County Sheriff's Department
officials.

Reabe Spraying Service, Inc. of Waupun, owns the plane.

Damon Reabe, 29, of Madison was applying pesticides to a field of sweet corn
when the plane crashed south of Gauger Road in the Township of Springvale
around 4:50 p.m., says Sgt. Jeff Bonack.

Investors Tom Huettl and Bill Steenberg of Fond du Lac own the land, but
farmer Kurt Krohn of Brandon farms it.

Krohn said the accident damaged "only a small percentage" of his sweet corn
crop.

"I'm not worried," he said, adding that Reabe is a "very fair" company to
work with.

Bonack said he believes pilot error caused the crash but the sherriff's
department and the Federal Aircraft Administration department are still
investigating the crash.

Reabe was alone in the plane.

The police, fire and first responders of Brandon, along with the Wisconsin
State Patrol and Brooks Ambulance, responded to the scene in addition to the
sheriff's department.


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[Morgans]

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
m...
> Good point about difficult to find. I remember a glider crash into the
> trees during a competition in the Pennslyvania appalacians. We were on
the
> ground listening to the pilot try to direct overhead searching aircraft
and
> on the ground walking searchers to where he was hung in the trees.
Finally
> he had to get himself out and down and walk out. The bright white Glider
> was never seen from the air. Had to walk back in the next day to get it.
>
> Perhaps one of the more important tasks is making sure that ELT works.
(not
> req'd in gliders)
>
Even a better reason to carry a GPS, even if it is a cheap land based
handheld.
--
Jim in NC

[Cub Driver]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:29:07 GMT, "Maule Driver"
> wrote:

>But for moderate slopes, my experience is that upslope is strongly preferred
>even with a moderate tailwind.

There's a neat private field near the airport I fly from. While it's
possible to land downslope, you have to slip like crazy to do so,
because westbound you have trees and power lines to clear, then a very
steep slope (I love to take off from that slope, without ever actually
using the runway), and finally a 1500? foot runway with a gentle
slope, which however vanishes very rapidly indeed. I have never
succeeded in landing on the first half of that runway.

Eastbound, however, that gentle upslope is perfect for making wheelies
so smooth that the passenger never knows when the plane is on the
ground. If the wind is out of the west (it usually is, or SW in high
summer or NW in the winter) I try to keep the elevator neutral until I
have a lot of power on, so as to climb the hill at the east end. But I
have never felt that the tailwind put me in any danger of overrunning
the runway in that direction. (And if it did, the hill would stop me
in plenty of time.)

East or west, it's a joy to land there, and likewise it's a joy to
take off to the west (I've never tried it in the other direction).


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[zatatime]

On 15 Dec 2004 06:10:25 -0800, wrote:

>If my reply gets out of sequence please bear with me. The thoughts get
>so excited and out of step. I'll be glad to elaborate if I have
>confused you.


No confusion. Thanks for this reply and others.

Never considered the cross slop technique as all the manuals I've seen
say land upslope. I've been in WV and TN alot, and saw very varied
upslope conditions which I didn't think I could flare over without
smacking into the hill. Cross slope allow me a way to possible get
out of that predicament if needed. I also like the idea ofcarrying
extra speed so you can "set up a climb" over the slope instead of just
flaring into it.

I was however slightly dissappointed with your city landing comment.
Not from anything you said, but from the fact what I took out of it
was, "unless you know the streets VERY well, kiss you ass good by, and
then hope to get lucky!" A slight tongue in cheek representation of
what you said, but I don't think too far off.

Lastly I never knew corn was so bad. I heard a story of my first
instructor (old WWII pilot) putting down in a corn field with a
student without any damage. Must've been young corn from the comments
I've seen here. <g> After that, I've always thought corn was a good
way to go, I will now try to recondition myself to putting it 3rd or
4th on the list when I'm scoping out landing options.

Thanks to all who are contributing to this thread. It sure beats the
hell out of the political conversations, and may just help someone
someday. I know I've learned already.

z

[G.R. Patterson III]

zatatime wrote:
>
> I've been in WV and TN alot, and saw very varied
> upslope conditions which I didn't think I could flare over without
> smacking into the hill.

My feeling is that, if the slope is that bad, it's probably descending faster
than my rate of descent. Just follow the slope downhill and land where it's
flatter. I think that would work in the Appalachians.

> I heard a story of my first
> instructor (old WWII pilot) putting down in a corn field with a
> student without any damage. Must've been young corn from the comments
> I've seen here. <g>

It also might've already been harvested. When and where I grew up, the farmers
would harvest the ears and cut the stalks for sileage. Such a field wouldn't be
a bad landing spot most of the year.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Jim Burns]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
> It also might've already been harvested. When and where I grew up, the
farmers
> would harvest the ears and cut the stalks for sileage. Such a field
wouldn't be
> a bad landing spot most of the year.

This is a great point. Keep in mind what happens to your landing surface
through out the year and with weather changes. A field that you may
repeatedly fly over and think that would make a great emergency landing spot
may turn into an unseen swamp after even a light rain. In much of the
Midwest those perfectly flat farm fields make great options to consider, but
maybe not after periods of rain. Dark soil will retain more water than
sandy soil.

Those same fields that are soft and smooth in the summer may turn rock hard
and rough as hell if there isn't any snow cover. This is what central
Wisconsin looks like right now. Full of farm fields that were disked and
chisel plowed this fall but no snow cover to make them smooth. Perfect for
ripping your gear off no matter what direction you land. In this situation
I look for short grass without rocks because I know it hasn't changed. Here
the rocks are in the ridges and the land that happens to be farmed isn't
irrigated or farmed. Perfect landing spot this time of year would be a
field with a cover crop of rye or wheat with an irrigation system. I know
it will be smooth and rock free.

The same idea can be transferred to about lakes. The lake that you fly by
all summer long may turn into your best option once winter comes and it is
frozen over. Watch for ice fishermen... if the lake can support their cars,
chances are it will support your airplane. Avoid lakes without ice
fisherman, this can mean the ice isn't thick enough or that it is a spring
fed lake and doesn't freeze completely. Watch for snow drifts and touch
down as softly as possible, remember braking action will be nill.

Jim


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[john smith]

I think that has to do with pilots flying from hard surface strips being
afraid of the turf.

wrote:
> C Kingsbury wrote :
> I used to get a little nervous flying across Phoenix under the class
> B shelf at ~1400 ft. AGL until I realized that I was almost always
> within gliding distance of an 18 hole golf course, just about anywhere
> in the city. There are close to 200 of them. Oddly enough, over the
> years we've had more planes land on city streets and highways than on
> golf courses.

[john smith]

Providing you can get a signal beneath the forest canopy.

Morgans wrote:
> Even a better reason to carry a GPS, even if it is a cheap land based
> handheld.

[Maule Driver]

Corn and other crops can be bad on the aircraft but you will survive.

"knee high by the fourth of July" was the formula for the NE US. Up to
about the 4th, corn was landable without damage except to the crop. After
that, you start to get the airframe stained, then banged up and 30 days
later, you will not come out airworthy.

Lots of variations with seasons, crops, and local practices. I was exposed
to what I will call 'insurance' cotton fields in the caprock area of NM/TX.
The cotton that was going to be harvested was irrigated and too high for
damage free landings. Then there were these fields that had been worked and
planted but never irrigated. Perfect for landing and no crop damage. The
helpful rancher from next door told me, "if you never setup the irrigation
on the field, they don't have chance in this area - just planted for crop
insurance claims". Rural welfare I guess but perfect for offield landings.

"zatatime" > wrote in message > Lastly I never knew corn was
so bad. I heard a story of my first
> instructor (old WWII pilot) putting down in a corn field with a
> student without any damage. Must've been young corn from the comments
> I've seen here. <g> After that, I've always thought corn was a good
> way to go, I will now try to recondition myself to putting it 3rd or
> 4th on the list when I'm scoping out landing options.
>

[Maule Driver]

Golf courses can be a bit tougher than they appear. I don't play but after
considering a few from the air, I mentally flew a couple of approaches on
some. They tend to be hilly, they tend to be surrounded by trees (maybe not
in Phoenix), the good spots tend to curve around, there are lots of people
on them when the soaring was good.

The trees were the main problem. A good rule of eye is to assume you can
touchdown no closer to a treeline than 10X the tree's height. So the first
priority is to find an approach path to that fairway - probably between the
tree lines - but then there may be power lines on the less refined courses.
Then nothing is completely flat or smoothly sloped.

I landed on a golf course twice. Unfortunately it was on the same course
in the same spot - the driving range. It seemed to be the best spot on the
entire course especially because no one was walking around in the middle of
it. The 2nd time, the guys took me up the clubhouse to show me a picture of
how some guy had landed there before. It turned out to be me....

Regarding people and athletic fields and stuff. When the engine is out (or
even idle), there is no way to signal anyone that you are landing. They
won't hear you. It would be real bad to land and hit a pedestrian. I've
landed in a soccer field near Allentown PA that was a shortcut for college
kids going to class. Nother scarier than skimming down the field with a 50
foot long scythe (sp) of a wing clipping along at 40mph at waist height.
No one knew I was there until I passed them.

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> I think that has to do with pilots flying from hard surface strips being
> afraid of the turf.
>
> wrote:
> > C Kingsbury wrote :
> > I used to get a little nervous flying across Phoenix under the class
> > B shelf at ~1400 ft. AGL until I realized that I was almost always
> > within gliding distance of an 18 hole golf course, just about anywhere
> > in the city. There are close to 200 of them. Oddly enough, over the
> > years we've had more planes land on city streets and highways than on
> > golf courses.
>

[Morgans]

"Maule Driver" > wrote

I've
> landed in a soccer field near Allentown PA that was a shortcut for college
> kids going to class. Nother scarier than skimming down the field with a
50
> foot long scythe (sp) of a wing clipping along at 40mph at waist height.
> No one knew I was there until I passed them.


You just have to open the vent window and yell, "MAN ON" <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Beckman]

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
. com...
> Golf courses can be a bit tougher than they appear. I don't play but
> after
> considering a few from the air, I mentally flew a couple of approaches on
> some. They tend to be hilly, they tend to be surrounded by trees (maybe
> not
> in Phoenix), the good spots tend to curve around, there are lots of people
> on them when the soaring was good.
>

One problem you might encounter with golf courses in the Phoenix area is
with a desert design concept known as "target golf."

The course will not have turf all the way from tee to green. In fact, many
courses intentionally put "waste" areas full of kitty litter-esque gravel in
areas meant to be carried through the air with a shot and penalize players
who want to roll the ball onto the green. Makes the course harder but saves
water since you don't have as much thirsty grass.

Feeling good about getting on the ground just past the tee box would turn to
a "GULP" when you find that you are on a par 5 where the designer decided to
put washes or "barancas" across the fairway between the landing areas for
the second or third shots.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[Blueskies]

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message m...
> In gliders the mantra was, "land upwind and upslope but upslope is more
> important. Down slope is to be avoided."
>
> The challenge is to understand just how steep an approach is required and
> how much energy is required to flare properly for steeper slopes. It's not
> a minimum speed approach and you must have enough pitch authority to round
> out. Much more than one would originally think for steeper slopes.
>
> The rollout or skid will be much shorter which is always good. And it's
> easier to hit a spot. Every foot of ground covered after touchdown runs the
> risk of hitting something you didn't see. I routinely drove the nose in the
> ground with the brake to minimize rollouts over unknown ground.
>
> But for moderate slopes, my experience is that upslope is strongly preferred
> even with a moderate tailwind.
>


When landing upslope judging the moment to flare is also harder...it looks like you are just above the ground but you
will still be high...

[[email protected]]

Blueskies wrote:
> "Maule Driver" > wrote in message
m...
> > In gliders the mantra was, "land upwind and upslope but upslope is
more
> > important. Down slope is to be avoided."
> >
> > The challenge is to understand just how steep an approach is
required and
> > how much energy is required to flare properly for steeper slopes.
It's not
> > a minimum speed approach and you must have enough pitch authority
to round
> > out. Much more than one would originally think for steeper
slopes.
> >
> > The rollout or skid will be much shorter which is always good. And
it's
> > easier to hit a spot. Every foot of ground covered after touchdown
runs the
> > risk of hitting something you didn't see. I routinely drove the
nose in the
> > ground with the brake to minimize rollouts over unknown ground.
> >
> > But for moderate slopes, my experience is that upslope is strongly
preferred
> > even with a moderate tailwind.
> >
>
>
> When landing upslope judging the moment to flare is also harder...it
looks like you are just above the ground but you
> will still be high...

Do what I did. Knowing that some of my flying would be onto and off
topdressing airstrips I found instructors who had been topdressing
pilots and learnt from them.
I noticed in a post further back some-one was debating the idea of
landing downhill.
Bad idea.
You not only have the aircraft speed but also the weight and the
downhill slope and nothing to really slow you.
landing uphill is not only a good idea it is also the safest

[Stefan]

wrote:

> Do what I did. Knowing that some of my flying would be onto and off
> topdressing airstrips I found instructors who had been topdressing
> pilots and learnt from them.

Depending on how steep the slope is, you must approach with overspeed to
have enough energy to properly flare uphill. It's very good advice to
train this with somebody who has experience.

> landing uphill is not only a good idea it is also the safest

Landing uphill is the only way to go. I once landed downhill at an
unknown airstrip, because at that side, the approach was clear of
obstacles, while at the other side it was not, and I, being very low
time then, was afraid to take the approach over trees and between
electric lines.

It was a perfect landing in the sense that the plane remained undamaged
and I'm still alive. But I'm still shivering when I think back.

Stefan