How to Buy a Headset for the Wife?

[Kyle Boatright]

I've got 3 headsets. Two sets are cheapies I got when I earned my license 10
years ago, and a nice set I bought when I finished the RV-6. Both models
are discontinued.

I'm happy with the nice set (Lightspeed 25XL's), but the cheapies have more
clamping force, and my wife is uncomfortable wearing them on longer flights.
Being PIC, I make sure she understands why it is very important that I wear
the nice, comfortable, noise cancelling headsets. Clearly, I need to hear
traffic calls, and since her life depends on me when we're in the air, she's
very much attuned to my comfort, not hers. ;-)

Anyway, how do I go about helping her find a set of headsets she likes?
I've never found an avionics shop that loans headsets for a weekend , which
is what you really need, since you don't get a real feel for a headsets
until you wear them for 3-4 hours at a time. What feels and sounds great in
the booth at Oshkosh or SnF may be a head crushing nightmare after you wear
'em for a couple of hours...

Thoughts?

KB

[john smith]

I thought Lightspeed had a 30-day return policy?
Someone made available TELEX 50's for trial awhile back on the acro group.
Contact the manufacturers and ask if they or their vendors have any
policies for loaning or returning. The worst they can say is "No".

Kyle Boatright wrote:
> Anyway, how do I go about helping her find a set of headsets she likes?
> I've never found an avionics shop that loans headsets for a weekend , which
> is what you really need, since you don't get a real feel for a headsets
> until you wear them for 3-4 hours at a time. What feels and sounds great in
> the booth at Oshkosh or SnF may be a head crushing nightmare after you wear
> 'em for a couple of hours...
> Thoughts?

[Cockpit Colin]

Lowest clamping force on the market is the Bose Aviation X - I guarantee
she'll LOVE them :)


"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
...
> I've got 3 headsets. Two sets are cheapies I got when I earned my license
10
> years ago, and a nice set I bought when I finished the RV-6. Both models
> are discontinued.
>
> I'm happy with the nice set (Lightspeed 25XL's), but the cheapies have
more
> clamping force, and my wife is uncomfortable wearing them on longer
flights.
> Being PIC, I make sure she understands why it is very important that I
wear
> the nice, comfortable, noise cancelling headsets. Clearly, I need to hear
> traffic calls, and since her life depends on me when we're in the air,
she's
> very much attuned to my comfort, not hers. ;-)
>
> Anyway, how do I go about helping her find a set of headsets she likes?
> I've never found an avionics shop that loans headsets for a weekend ,
which
> is what you really need, since you don't get a real feel for a headsets
> until you wear them for 3-4 hours at a time. What feels and sounds great
in
> the booth at Oshkosh or SnF may be a head crushing nightmare after you
wear
> 'em for a couple of hours...
>
> Thoughts?
>
> KB
>
>
>

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Kyle Boatright > wrote:
>I'm happy with the nice set (Lightspeed 25XL's), but the cheapies have more
>clamping force, and my wife is uncomfortable wearing them on longer flights.

My wife and I tried all the Lightspeed models (this is before the 3G
series) at their HQ in front of their bigass speakers playing recorded
airplane noises. My impression was that the Cross Country ANR blocked
slight more treble (passivly) and the high-end models blocked more bass
(actively). My wife liked the XC better because they weighed slightly
less and were less bulky. She's worn her XCs for many hours and likes
them fine.

When I bought the plane I got a couple of the "Solo" headsets (like the
XC, but no ANR) and she's worn them on a few flights and has commented
on how much nicer the ANR is. If I flew 3-4 people at a time more often
I might feel bad enough for the back seaters to upgrade my own XC to
something else so they could use my old headset. ;-)

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Kyle Boatright" > said:
>I'm happy with the nice set (Lightspeed 25XL's), but the cheapies have more
>clamping force, and my wife is uncomfortable wearing them on longer flights.

Does she like the 25XLs? Buy yourself a pair of the Bose, and give her
the Lightspeeds.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Q: Do you know what the death rate around here is?
A: One per person.

[SFM]

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:A0bwd.201783$V41.11172@attbi_s52...
>
My wife liked the XC better because they weighed slightly
> less and were less bulky. She's worn her XCs for many hours and likes
> them fine.
>
>> --
> Ben Jackson
> >
> http://www.ben.com/

Had my wife try a bunch too and she picked the XCs for the same reasons. But
they have failed on her twice so far. Both times during a long flight. So
she had to go without talking and that made her a bit upset. She feels
better in the plane when she can ask question and her me tell her what is
about to happen. I have been trying to get her to pick out another more
reliable set. I use DC 13XLs and have an extra DC-13X that I may lend her on
our next flight. The DC never break, I upgraded after too many failures with
my Lightspeed 20XL and 3Gs. Lightspeed really makes some crap equipment. The
only thing I see they do right is customer service but that is a necessity
since their product quality stinks.

Scott

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------------------------------------------------------------------
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MI-150972
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swallowing is that I live in a country where more than half the
population is willfully ignorant, politically obstinate, religiously
prejudiced, and embarrassingly gullible."

-------------------------------------

[Jim Burns]

After commenting that she liked my 20XL, I bought my wife a refurbished 20XL
direct from Lightspeed.

Jim


"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Kyle,
>
> > Thoughts?
> >
>
> Buy a Lightspeed 20XLc.
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>


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[T.Roger]

Among audio professionals, anything "Bose" is derided for offering half the
sound at twice the price. I'd get a nice Lightspeed set or something with
a separate audio input for music and spend the rest on some jewelry for her
XMAS gift.




"Cockpit Colin" > wrote in message
...
> Lowest clamping force on the market is the Bose Aviation X - I guarantee
> she'll LOVE them :)
>
>
> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I've got 3 headsets. Two sets are cheapies I got when I earned my
license
> 10
> > years ago, and a nice set I bought when I finished the RV-6. Both
models
> > are discontinued.
> >
> > I'm happy with the nice set (Lightspeed 25XL's), but the cheapies have
> more
> > clamping force, and my wife is uncomfortable wearing them on longer
> flights.
> > Being PIC, I make sure she understands why it is very important that I
> wear
> > the nice, comfortable, noise cancelling headsets. Clearly, I need to
hear
> > traffic calls, and since her life depends on me when we're in the air,
> she's
> > very much attuned to my comfort, not hers. ;-)
> >
> > Anyway, how do I go about helping her find a set of headsets she likes?
> > I've never found an avionics shop that loans headsets for a weekend ,
> which
> > is what you really need, since you don't get a real feel for a headsets
> > until you wear them for 3-4 hours at a time. What feels and sounds
great
> in
> > the booth at Oshkosh or SnF may be a head crushing nightmare after you
> wear
> > 'em for a couple of hours...
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > KB
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[WildBlueYonder76]

Depending on how much you want to spend, Bose is prob one of the best
on the market. My Sigtronics S-58 (purchased from Sporty's) is
generally lightweight, and quite comfortable. Decent noise reduction.

[PJ Hunt]

Hi Kyle,

Well buying headsets is a tough decision because as you mentioned, many that
sound or feel great, don't seem so great after you've had them on your head
for a couple hours. Experience has shown us that generally speaking, you
usually get what you pay for.

As for the Lightspeed, they do sound great and are comfortable to wear for
long flights. The problem I have with them is they are just to cheaply made
to last for very long. I know of two pair that have broken after 2 years of
normal use and are unfortunately no longer under warranty.

On the other hand, I have several pairs of Dave Clarks for myself and my
passengers. I fly professionally, many days timing out at 8 hours and I can
wear my DC H-60's for the entire day and not feel uncomfortable one bit.

I paid around 350 dollars for my H-60's about 10 years ago before ANR
existed. The first thing I did was have them fitted with the Oregon Aero
leather top with sheep wool and the ear pieces are the DC ear gels with the
felt lining. In 2000 or 2001, I had the ANR kit installed and it's one of
the best investments I've ever made in aviation.

Customers are hard on headsets and these have been dropped out of airplanes
and helicopters, kicked across the ramp, stepped on, sat on, doors shut on
them and ripped out of the jack inputs and they just keep on working as
expected without a hitch. The quality and durability is, in my opinion,
superior to all other headset on the market, including the Boise, which I
have used often. I actually prefer my DC's for the way the mic is attached
with the wire type of system. It's much more adjustable and stays put
without a fuss. As you could guess, for someone who is really going to
'use' their headset I can not recommend the DC line highly enough.

With the Boise, I tend to get a hot spot on top of my head after several
hours of wearing them. I've also found that because of the materials used,
they do not withstand the abuses the DC's hold up to.

Of course if you're certain that you won't subject your headsets to these
tortures, you may be happy with a lesser pair. But then my girlfriend
didn't have that luck with her lightspeeds.

Good luck,

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
...
> I've got 3 headsets. Two sets are cheapies I got when I earned my license
10
> years ago, and a nice set I bought when I finished the RV-6. Both models
> are discontinued.
>
> I'm happy with the nice set (Lightspeed 25XL's), but the cheapies have
more
> clamping force, and my wife is uncomfortable wearing them on longer
flights.
> Being PIC, I make sure she understands why it is very important that I
wear
> the nice, comfortable, noise cancelling headsets. Clearly, I need to hear
> traffic calls, and since her life depends on me when we're in the air,
she's
> very much attuned to my comfort, not hers. ;-)
>
> Anyway, how do I go about helping her find a set of headsets she likes?
> I've never found an avionics shop that loans headsets for a weekend ,
which
> is what you really need, since you don't get a real feel for a headsets
> until you wear them for 3-4 hours at a time. What feels and sounds great
in
> the booth at Oshkosh or SnF may be a head crushing nightmare after you
wear
> 'em for a couple of hours...
>
> Thoughts?
>
> KB
>
>
>

[Cockpit Colin]

> Among audio professionals, anything "Bose" is derided for offering half
the
> sound at twice the price. I'd get a nice Lightspeed set or something
with
> a separate audio input for music and spend the rest on some jewelry for
her
> XMAS gift.

Among aviation professionals, anyone owning Lightspeed always praise their
customer service - it's just a pity that nearly everyone seems to need so
much of it.

[Cockpit Colin]

"WildBlueYonder76" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Depending on how much you want to spend, Bose is prob one of the best
> on the market. My Sigtronics S-58 (purchased from Sporty's) is
> generally lightweight, and quite comfortable. Decent noise reduction.


Last comprehensive survey I saw put Bose on top, again. (albeit by a small
margin). There is little doubt that when it comes to performance - in all
areas - they're unrivaled - but there is no denying they are expensive, so
the perceived "value for money" tends to offset the superior performance in
the ratings. In my opinion, aviation is expensive - so why not spend a bit
more on something that'll help get the maximum enjoyment out of it?

[[email protected]]

Ask "the wife" if she'd like to try a few different ones at the local
pilot shop.
See what she prefers.
You could also consider inviting her to earn her ticket.

[Cockpit Colin]

> With the Boise, I tend to get a hot spot on top of my head after several
> hours of wearing them.

This was an issue with the very early models - I believe that they have a
free upgrage kit available, if you're interested.

[Cockpit Colin]

> You could also consider inviting her to earn her ticket.

Hmmm - that should effectively halve the available budget for flight time,
and kill all chance of some peace and quiet with the boys! :(

[Cockpit Colin]

That's an amazing piece of (il)logic that just topedoed just about every
expensive product ever made.

Personally, when I screw up and make a dumb investment I'm not too proud to
admit it - having said that I bought a Bose - I love it - I bought another -
love that one too - and am after 2 more because I want my passengers to have
the best.

The other possibility you need to consider is that the reason they cost so
much is that they are actually better than the others. eg. Seen many others
using a titanium headband to reduce weight?

I'm told they sell something like 600 a month - so I guess a few others must
like them too - despite the price.

[Thomas Borchert]

Cockpit,

> The other possibility you need to consider is that the reason they cost so
> much is that they are actually better than the others.
>

Sure. I just wanted to point out that these kinds of customer satisfaction
surveys have their pitfalls.

And of course, the price vs. value proposition is different for different
people.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Cockpit Colin]

Some might find the following Bose -v- Lightspeed comparison of interest ...

http://www.avweb.com/news/reviews/181960-1.html

[Marc J. Zeitlin]

Cockpit Colin wrote:

>...Seen many others
> using a titanium headband to reduce weight?

Minor Nit: Actually, it's cast magnesium, not titanium - magnesium is
even lighter still.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://marc.zeitlin.home.comcast.net/
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2004

[Thomas Borchert]

Cockpit,

> Some might find the following Bose -v- Lightspeed comparison of interest ...
>

keeping in mind, though, that LightSPEED has gone through 2 more generations
of their products since then with significant changes, e.g. to the ANR.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Kyler Laird]

"Cockpit Colin" > writes:

>Lowest clamping force on the market is the Bose Aviation X - I guarantee
>she'll LOVE them :)

Indeed. Don't screw around; keep her happy by buying a pair of Bose
for her. My wife has tried several and always comes back to the Bose
(despite her set getting screwed up for awhile during an upgrade).
http://lairds.org/Kyler/photos/disk0009/img28.jpg/image_viewer

--kyler

[Kyler Laird]

"T.Roger" > writes:

>Among audio professionals, anything "Bose" is derided for offering half the
>sound at twice the price.

My wife often repeats the "no highs, no lows; must be Bose" saying from her
studio days. She still won't give up her Bose headset.

Fortunately she's smart enough to look beyond old sayings. ('course with
noise cancelling headsets "no highs and no lows" is a *good* thing.)

--kyler

[PJ Hunt]

Thomas,

> Well, mine are in their 7th year and going strong.

I'm happy for you. However you don't offer any comparison to the type of use
and abuse that your headsets must withstand in reference to what I posted
about the headsets I use. I have a cheap pair of 69 dollar Sigtronics that
I got in the early 90's that still look and work like new. That's because
there in a closet never being used.

My point was specifically about how abused headsets get in a 'professional'
environment and I've been thru and seen many used by other operators, and
the DC consistently out perform the others for durability.

As I posted originally, if you or your passengers don't subject your
headsets to that kind of abuse, then you would probably be very happy with
some other brand.

> Did the owner ask Lightspeed about repairs? Did they charge him? Didn't
think
> so.

You thought wrong. The owner(s) did contact Lightspeed and were told they
were not under warranty and the cost to repair them was well into the price
of new headsets. As a matter of fact when I made reference to my
girlfriends set, (of headsets) I realized I was mistaken. They were not two
years old, but only one year. She received them as a Christmas gift and they
were broken by October. They spent the majority of their time in her flight
bag.

I like the Lightspeeds for comfort and audio quality, but as I said, my
experience has been they don't use the best materials in the manufacturing
process.

As for the Boise, they're much better made and with better quality materials
then the Lightspeed, but the darn mic keeps getting sloppy on so many
models.

I realize that I fly many more hours a year than most people, and because of
this and the type of environments I fly in and out of, me and my customers
are much harder on headsets than most people, but I just don't have any of
these issues with the Dave Clarks.

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

[Cockpit Colin]

> Minor Nit: Actually, it's cast magnesium, not titanium - magnesium is
> even lighter still.

I've checked my facts and ...

.... stand corrected :)

[Cockpit Colin]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Cockpit,
>
> > Some might find the following Bose -v- Lightspeed comparison of interest
....
> >
>
> keeping in mind, though, that LightSPEED has gone through 2 more
generations
> of their products since then with significant changes, e.g. to the ANR.

Out of interest, Bose have also refined the Aviation X - I don't think
they've done anything to the ANR, but the mike boom no longer ratchets - now
uses 2x AA instead of 1x 9 volt (much smaller unit) - auto-off, and volume
controls that are easier to manipulate.

CC

[Cockpit Colin]

One of the dynamics of purchasing cheaper headsets (or many other things in
life) is that a cheap headset doesn't necessarily mean you'll have
problems - but it increases the chances of getting one that will have
problems. High and Low quality items (say Bose -v- Lightspeed) are marketed
with differing dynamics. Bose will use more expensive parts and put more
into R & D - but it probably still doesn't cost them more than $50 per unit
(not counting R & D). Yes, they make a high margin, but that will be offset
by the fact that they don't sell as many of them. You'll probably find it
only costs $20 to make a Lightspeed headset - they still make a large
margin - and they sell many more because of the price - but profits are
reduced by the cost of the customer service. And the resulting reputation
sets their place in the market.

Two manufacturers taking two differing approaches to their marketing.

I'm always guided by the old saying "The memories of poor quality remain far
longer than those of the low price."

"PJ Hunt" > wrote in message
...
> Thomas,
>
> > Well, mine are in their 7th year and going strong.
>
> I'm happy for you. However you don't offer any comparison to the type of
use
> and abuse that your headsets must withstand in reference to what I posted
> about the headsets I use. I have a cheap pair of 69 dollar Sigtronics
that
> I got in the early 90's that still look and work like new. That's because
> there in a closet never being used.
>
> My point was specifically about how abused headsets get in a
'professional'
> environment and I've been thru and seen many used by other operators, and
> the DC consistently out perform the others for durability.
>
> As I posted originally, if you or your passengers don't subject your
> headsets to that kind of abuse, then you would probably be very happy with
> some other brand.
>
> > Did the owner ask Lightspeed about repairs? Did they charge him? Didn't
> think
> > so.
>
> You thought wrong. The owner(s) did contact Lightspeed and were told they
> were not under warranty and the cost to repair them was well into the
price
> of new headsets. As a matter of fact when I made reference to my
> girlfriends set, (of headsets) I realized I was mistaken. They were not
two
> years old, but only one year. She received them as a Christmas gift and
they
> were broken by October. They spent the majority of their time in her
flight
> bag.
>
> I like the Lightspeeds for comfort and audio quality, but as I said, my
> experience has been they don't use the best materials in the manufacturing
> process.
>
> As for the Boise, they're much better made and with better quality
materials
> then the Lightspeed, but the darn mic keeps getting sloppy on so many
> models.
>
> I realize that I fly many more hours a year than most people, and because
of
> this and the type of environments I fly in and out of, me and my customers
> are much harder on headsets than most people, but I just don't have any of
> these issues with the Dave Clarks.
>
> PJ
>
> ============================================
> Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
> May sometime another year, we all be back together.
> JJW
> ============================================
>
>

[Kyler Laird]

"Cockpit Colin" > writes:

>> With the Boise, I tend to get a hot spot on top of my head after several
>> hours of wearing them.

>This was an issue with the very early models - I believe that they have a
>free upgrage kit available, if you're interested.

Long story...I put a patch of sheepskin (which came as a sample for seat
covers) on my wife's set after she complained about the "hot spot". It
solved the problem. I mentioned it to Bose. They rolled out the upgrade
(with a solution to my battery box complaint too). It impressed me.

--kyler

[Marc J. Zeitlin]

Cockpit Colin wrote:

> ..... Bose will use more expensive parts and put more
> into R & D - but it probably still doesn't cost them more than $50 per
unit
> (not counting R & D). Yes, they make a high margin, but that will be
offset
> by the fact that they don't sell as many of them.

I have no clue whatsoever what it costs Lightspeed to manufacture their
headsets. However, having worked on the Bose X as a mechanical engineer
as they were being designed and released to manufacturing, I've got a
VERY good idea what the manufacturing costs of the Bose X are, and it's
nowhere NEAR $50. When they were released in early 1999, the
manufacturing cost (including amortization of tooling, which was to run
three years), was about $320/unit. Amortization of tooling was about
$30/unit. I would have to assume that in the intervening 5 years
there's been some cost reduction effort, but I'd be VERY surprised,
given how little the design has changes, if the manufacturing cost is
below $250/unit at this point.

And no, I no longer work there and get headsets cheap :-).

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://marc.zeitlin.home.comcast.net/
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2004

[Don Hammer]

Have Bose in a company airplane. Purchased a Flightcom Denali for
myself for about $530. Less than an ounce heavier than the Bose and
clamping force about the same or less. I've been very satisfied and
consider them a great value for the price.


Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
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[Helen Woods]

Try adding gell ear seals and a good fluffy head pad to what you have
now and see if that makes a difference. I had the same problems when I
first started flying and eventually figured out that a good head pad and
gel ear seals alleviated pressure all around - much more than just
switching brands. The best head pad I have is the one that came built
in on my DC. However, the add on available from Avcom, fits on most
anything after you cut of the crummy rubber pad and does a good job as well.

If you do decide to get another headset, bear in mind that us women folk
have smaller heads than you men. Some headsets don't adjust small
enough for us.

Helen

[Cockpit Colin]

Ahhh - so we blame you for the hot spot on the early models! :))

I was referring more to the concept - I took a wild stab at the price (which
was clearly way out) (actually, having just had to defend someone over a
similar thing I should have known better!) - should have kept prices out of
it in retrospect.

I guess it comes down to the age-old-saying "you get what you pay for".


"Marc J. Zeitlin" > wrote in message
news:PpOwd.589967$D%.177216@attbi_s51...
> Cockpit Colin wrote:
>
> > ..... Bose will use more expensive parts and put more
> > into R & D - but it probably still doesn't cost them more than $50 per
> unit
> > (not counting R & D). Yes, they make a high margin, but that will be
> offset
> > by the fact that they don't sell as many of them.
>
> I have no clue whatsoever what it costs Lightspeed to manufacture their
> headsets. However, having worked on the Bose X as a mechanical engineer
> as they were being designed and released to manufacturing, I've got a
> VERY good idea what the manufacturing costs of the Bose X are, and it's
> nowhere NEAR $50. When they were released in early 1999, the
> manufacturing cost (including amortization of tooling, which was to run
> three years), was about $320/unit. Amortization of tooling was about
> $30/unit. I would have to assume that in the intervening 5 years
> there's been some cost reduction effort, but I'd be VERY surprised,
> given how little the design has changes, if the manufacturing cost is
> below $250/unit at this point.
>
> And no, I no longer work there and get headsets cheap :-).
>
> --
> Marc J. Zeitlin
> http://marc.zeitlin.home.comcast.net/
> http://www.cozybuilders.org/
> Copyright (c) 2004
>
>

[Cockpit Colin]

Well done! I've been able to influence a couple of manufacturers on the odd
occasion - it's a good feeling to know you've helped out.

"Kyler Laird" > wrote in message
...
> "Cockpit Colin" > writes:
>
> >> With the Boise, I tend to get a hot spot on top of my head after
several
> >> hours of wearing them.
>
> >This was an issue with the very early models - I believe that they have a
> >free upgrage kit available, if you're interested.
>
> Long story...I put a patch of sheepskin (which came as a sample for seat
> covers) on my wife's set after she complained about the "hot spot". It
> solved the problem. I mentioned it to Bose. They rolled out the upgrade
> (with a solution to my battery box complaint too). It impressed me.
>
> --kyler

[Marc J. Zeitlin]

Cockpit Colin wrote:

> Ahhh - so we blame you for the hot spot on the early models! :))

No, no, no :-). I got there about 6 months before release, so the
DESIGN was already fixed. The only stuff that I got to work on was the
stuff that just absolutely didn't work, and manufacturing stuff (so that
we could actually build and sell them - what a concept :-) ). I only
fixed stuff - I never broke it :-).

As an aside, the Bose I and Bose II series headsets never made money -
they never even broke even. The Series X is a good moneymaker for Bose.

> I guess it comes down to the age-old-saying "you get what you pay
for".

Well, sort of. Bose is, how shall we say, not the most cost effective
company from an overhead standpoint. I have no doubt that in a company
that had better control of overhead, and better manufacturing/materials
control, the ~$300/unit could have been brought down to $200/unit, but
it's not going to get much cheaper than that with the current design.
Magnesium headbands and aluminum staples, along with very high quality
microphones and connectors cost $$$.....

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://marc.zeitlin.home.comcast.net/
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2004