"zero" versus "oscar" versus "sierra"

[Ron Garret]

I fly an airplane whose last two digits in its identifier are "0P"
(indicating that it's an OurPlane aircraft). Of course, OurPlane would
have liked it to be "OP" instead, but the FAA won't allow "oscar" in
aircraft identifiers, only "zero".

It happens that there's another airplane at my airport with the exact
same identifier identifier except that it ends in "SP". In the air it
turns out that "zero poppa" and "sierra poppa" sound an awful lot alike
(try it), which has occasionally led to confusion when both planes are
in the pattern. (I've taken to saying a very exaggerated version of
ZEEEEEE-ROW-OOOO when I'm flying.) Allowing "zero poppa" to be "oscar
poppa" instead would alleviate this confusion. Does anyone know what it
would take to try to make this case to the FAA to try to get them to
change their minds?

rg

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ron Garret" > wrote in message
...
>
> I fly an airplane whose last two digits in its identifier are "0P"
> (indicating that it's an OurPlane aircraft). Of course, OurPlane would
> have liked it to be "OP" instead, but the FAA won't allow "oscar" in
> aircraft identifiers, only "zero".
>
> It happens that there's another airplane at my airport with the exact
> same identifier identifier except that it ends in "SP". In the air it
> turns out that "zero poppa" and "sierra poppa" sound an awful lot alike
> (try it), which has occasionally led to confusion when both planes are
> in the pattern. (I've taken to saying a very exaggerated version of
> ZEEEEEE-ROW-OOOO when I'm flying.) Allowing "zero poppa" to be "oscar
> poppa" instead would alleviate this confusion. Does anyone know what it
> would take to try to make this case to the FAA to try to get them to
> change their minds?
>

Would the confusion be alleviated if you used the last three characters
instead of just the last two?

[Ron Garret]

In article t>,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> "Ron Garret" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I fly an airplane whose last two digits in its identifier are "0P"
> > (indicating that it's an OurPlane aircraft). Of course, OurPlane would
> > have liked it to be "OP" instead, but the FAA won't allow "oscar" in
> > aircraft identifiers, only "zero".
> >
> > It happens that there's another airplane at my airport with the exact
> > same identifier identifier except that it ends in "SP". In the air it
> > turns out that "zero poppa" and "sierra poppa" sound an awful lot alike
> > (try it), which has occasionally led to confusion when both planes are
> > in the pattern. (I've taken to saying a very exaggerated version of
> > ZEEEEEE-ROW-OOOO when I'm flying.) Allowing "zero poppa" to be "oscar
> > poppa" instead would alleviate this confusion. Does anyone know what it
> > would take to try to make this case to the FAA to try to get them to
> > change their minds?
> >
>
> Would the confusion be alleviated if you used the last three characters
> instead of just the last two?

No. The identifiers are identical but for the 0 and the S: N880P and
N88SP are both based at VNY.

rg

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ron Garret" > wrote in message
...
>
> No. The identifiers are identical but for the 0 and the S: N880P and
> N88SP are both based at VNY.
>

Then you're just going to have to live with it. The letter O is not used in
identifiers to avoid confusion with zero. Are the aircraft the same type?

[Jose]

[re: zero poppa and sierra poppa]
Can you apply for a completely new identifier?

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter R.]

Ron Garret ) wrote:

> It happens that there's another airplane at my airport with the exact
> same identifier identifier except that it ends in "SP". In the air it
> turns out that "zero poppa" and "sierra poppa" sound an awful lot alike
> (try it), which has occasionally led to confusion when both planes are
> in the pattern.

I trained in a C172 that ended in 0LP (Zero Lima Poppa). Most times
when I used the abbreviated callsign, the controller would almost always
hear "Zero Juliet Poppa" and call back to ask which call sign it was.

Those two also sound similar over the radio when 0LP is spoken a bit too
fast.

--
Peter

[Bill Denton]

As a former disc jockey, let me give you a hint. By and large, the
understandability of a communication is not really dependent upon how fast
the words are spoken.

To avoid miscommunication, you want to strongly "attack" each word, make
sure you say the entire word with no trailing off at the end, and make sure
you leave a slight space between words.

Fast or slow, "zerolimapappa" will never be as intelligible as "ZEEro -
LEEma - PAppa".

A couple of more hints. Spend a little time "over pronouncing" words, where
you make sure you are saying every syllable. It will sound really "stilted"
for a while, but if you keep practicing, in a short time you will develop a
natural rhythm. Listen to a good radio or television announcer and you will
see what I'm talking about.

And try to more or less snap out the word, like they do in the military when
they say something like: "Yes - Sir".

I'm a Suthunah, and when I got into radio I first had to learn how nawmul
people tawk when they're talking sloppy, then put a little polish on it. It
took me about six months total to do it. bit it's really not that hard to
do, just make it a point to be constantly conscious of how you are
pronouncing and pacing words, and you'll pick it up in no time...




"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Ron Garret ) wrote:
>
> > It happens that there's another airplane at my airport with the exact
> > same identifier identifier except that it ends in "SP". In the air it
> > turns out that "zero poppa" and "sierra poppa" sound an awful lot alike
> > (try it), which has occasionally led to confusion when both planes are
> > in the pattern.
>
> I trained in a C172 that ended in 0LP (Zero Lima Poppa). Most times
> when I used the abbreviated callsign, the controller would almost always
> hear "Zero Juliet Poppa" and call back to ask which call sign it was.
>
> Those two also sound similar over the radio when 0LP is spoken a bit too
> fast.
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>

[Schmoe]

Ron Garret wrote:
> I fly an airplane whose last two digits in its identifier are "0P"
> (indicating that it's an OurPlane aircraft). Of course, OurPlane
> would have liked it to be "OP" instead, but the FAA won't allow
> "oscar" in aircraft identifiers, only "zero".
>
> It happens that there's another airplane at my airport with the exact
> same identifier identifier except that it ends in "SP".

What kind of planes are both?

[Dan Luke]

"Ron Garret" wrote:
> In the air it
> turns out that "zero poppa" and "sierra poppa" sound an awful lot alike

"SIERRA" is a failure as a phonetic letter and should be changed, IMO.
"SUGAR" was better, but it is too much of an oddball pronunciaton to be
successful internationally. How about "SUPER?"

> (try it), which has occasionally led to confusion when both planes are
> in the pattern. (I've taken to saying a very exaggerated version of
> ZEEEEEE-ROW-OOOO when I'm flying.)

Some pilots with "SIERRA" in their tail #s get sick of the continual
confusion and substitute "SUGAR." Controllers always accept it, even use it
themselves sometimes. Normally I am opposed to non-standard phraseology but
I make an exception in this case. "SIERRA" sucks.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Mike Adams]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> Then you're just going to have to live with it. The letter O is not
> used in identifiers to avoid confusion with zero. Are the aircraft
> the same type?

This reminds me of an interesting radio exchange I heard at DVT a few weeks ago. There was an
airplane departing with a zero in its call sign, I can't remember, but let's say N1023A. The pilot, called
himself "one-oh-two-three-alpha". The controller never corrected him on this and never offered him a
shortened call sign, but instead responded to him as "november one oscar two three alpha". The pilot
didn't catch on for the longest time, continuing to read this back as "one oh two three alpha". The
controller continued to give him extra traffic callouts and instructions, still with the full "oscar" ident, until
finally the pilot woke up and realized the situation and said, "and tower, that's one zero two three alpha",
to which the controller just said "thank you" and that was the end of it. The games people play....

Mike

[Peter R.]

Bill Denton ) wrote:

> As a former disc jockey, let me give you a hint. By and large, the
> understandability of a communication is not really dependent upon how fast
> the words are spoken.
<snip>

I'll give it a try. Thanks for that, Bill.

--
Peter

[Allen]

"Mike Adams" > wrote in message
news:DkIwd.56$iD.12@fed1read05...
> This reminds me of an interesting radio exchange I heard at DVT a few
weeks ago. There was an
> airplane departing with a zero in its call sign, I can't remember, but
let's say N1023A. The pilot, called
> himself "one-oh-two-three-alpha". The controller never corrected him on
this and never offered him a
> shortened call sign, but instead responded to him as "november one oscar
two three alpha". The pilot
> didn't catch on for the longest time, continuing to read this back as "one
oh two three alpha". The
> controller continued to give him extra traffic callouts and instructions,
still with the full "oscar" ident, until
> finally the pilot woke up and realized the situation and said, "and tower,
that's one zero two three alpha",
> to which the controller just said "thank you" and that was the end of it.
The games people play....
>
> Mike

I used to fly Learjet N1DC. We would always check on as One Dallas Cowboys.
The controllers everywhere would come back the same except the ones in the
northeast. Of course this was back when the Cowboys were winning Superbowls.
: >)

[AJW]

>
>> In the air it
>> turns out that "zero poppa" and "sierra poppa" sound an awful lot alike
>
>"SIERRA" is a failure as a phonetic letter and should be changed, IMO.
>"SUGAR" was better, but it is too much of an oddball pronunciaton to be
>successful internationally. How about "SUPER?"
>
>> (try it), which has occasionally led to confusion when both planes are
>> in the pattern. (I've taken to saying a very exaggerated version of
>> ZEEEEEE-ROW-OOOO when I'm flying.)
>
>Some pilots with "SIERRA" in their tail #s get sick of the continual
>confusion and substitute "SUGAR." Controllers always accept it, even use it
>themselves sometimes. Normally I am opposed to non-standard phraseology but
>I make an exception in this case. "SIERRA" sucks.
>--
>Dan
>C-172RG at BFM
>
>
Man, just call yourself oscar pop!

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Bill Denton > wrote:
>Fast or slow, "zerolimapappa" will never be as intelligible as "ZEEro -
>LEEma - PAppa".

When I bought N8674P I found that I was getting a lot of incorrect
readbacks from ATC. This prompted me to use a very crisp, deliberate
style like you describe. My experience was that it was pretty much a
wash. If you slow down too much it seems to be harder for the controller
to recall the sign. I get the best results with a crisp enunciation but
at full speed.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[G.R. Patterson III]

Ron Garret wrote:
>
> Allowing "zero poppa" to be "oscar
> poppa" instead would alleviate this confusion.

So would using your full N-number.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[[email protected]]

G.R. Patterson III wrote :
> Ron Garret wrote:

>> Allowing "zero poppa" to be "oscar
>> poppa" instead would alleviate this confusion.

>So would using your full N-number.

I think Ron previously mentioned that his full number is identical to
the other plane's, with the exception of the second to last character
(0 vs. S).

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Jose]

> I used to fly Learjet N1DC. We would always check on as One Dallas Cowboys.

Some twenty years ago at Teterboro (TEB) there was a something Mike
Mike, which everyone referred to as "Mickey Mouse".

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Allowing "zero poppa" to be "oscar
>> poppa" instead would alleviate this confusion.
>>
>
> So would using your full N-number.
>

Not if the other characters are identical, as they are in this case.

[BTIZ]

that's about as bad as Kilo and Quebec... Q in the military jargon was
pronounced KayBec..

don't know how many times I would write down a K instead of a Q and have to
go back and check it when decoding messages..

BT

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ron Garret" wrote:
>> In the air it
>> turns out that "zero poppa" and "sierra poppa" sound an awful lot alike
>
> "SIERRA" is a failure as a phonetic letter and should be changed, IMO.
> "SUGAR" was better, but it is too much of an oddball pronunciaton to be
> successful internationally. How about "SUPER?"
>
>> (try it), which has occasionally led to confusion when both planes are
>> in the pattern. (I've taken to saying a very exaggerated version of
>> ZEEEEEE-ROW-OOOO when I'm flying.)
>
> Some pilots with "SIERRA" in their tail #s get sick of the continual
> confusion and substitute "SUGAR." Controllers always accept it, even use
> it
> themselves sometimes. Normally I am opposed to non-standard phraseology
> but
> I make an exception in this case. "SIERRA" sucks.
> --
> Dan
> C-172RG at BFM
>
>

[Ron Garret]

In article t>,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> "Ron Garret" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > No. The identifiers are identical but for the 0 and the S: N880P and
> > N88SP are both based at VNY.
> >
>
> Then you're just going to have to live with it. The letter O is not used in
> identifiers to avoid confusion with zero. Are the aircraft the same type?

I'm not sure. 880P is a Cirrus. I thought 88SP was a Cessna, but
Google says it's a King Air. I've never actually seen 88SP.

rg

[Ron Garret]

In article >,
(AJW) wrote:

> Man, just call yourself oscar pop!

I've been told by people who have tried it that some controllers don't
like it. But maybe I'll give it a whirl and see how far I get.

rg

[Ron Garret]

In article t>,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> "Ron Garret" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > No. The identifiers are identical but for the 0 and the S: N880P and
> > N88SP are both based at VNY.
> >
>
> Then you're just going to have to live with it. The letter O is not used in
> identifiers to avoid confusion with zero.

One could just as easily decide that the number 0 is not used in
aircraft identifiers to avoid confusion with the letter O. Nothing
would actually have to change.

> Are the aircraft the same type?

I don't think so, but the VNY controllers don't call out the aircraft
type. They always open with "November".

rg

[Cub Driver]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 09:35:58 -0800, Ron Garret >
wrote:

>Does anyone know what it
>would take to try to make this case to the FAA to try to get them to
>change their minds?

The short answer, I suspect, is no, never, not on your life.

I am continually irritated by the assumption that Zero and Capital O
are the same thing. I think it arises from two factors: first, that on
the manual typewriters of the 1940s and 1950s that many of us learned
to type on, there was no zero, so we managed by typing a capital O.

And second, the dial telephones of the same era had 10 numbers on
them, including zero, but the zero also meant O for Operator.

I suspect the reason the FAA came up with this strange rule is that a
large proportion of the population would read Oscar as "zero", to the
great confusion of reporting miscreant aircraft.

(I know what you mean about the confusion arising from a
similar-sounding designator. I fly out of Hampton NH airport, which is
on the same freq as Sanford ME. Over the radio, it's often hard to
know which airport is meant. And at Sanford there is a Cessna whose
tail number ends in the same three digits as the J-3 I fly. So I am
always careful to specify that I am Piper Cub XXX, or in many cases
simply "the Cub".)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:19:56 -0600, "Dan Luke" > wrote:

>"SIERRA" is a failure as a phonetic letter and should be changed, IMO.
>"SUGAR" was better, but it is too much of an oddball pronunciaton to be
>successful internationally.

One of the worst! A Spanish speaker would presumably render it
SOO-harrr.

I learned the old phonetic alphabet, and when I began flying I found
that the term that stuck with me despite my best effort to abolish it
was Baker in lieu of Bravo. The FSS briefer would always correct me.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Dan Luke]

"Cub Driver" wrote:
>>"SIERRA" is a failure as a phonetic letter and should be changed,
IMO.
>>"SUGAR" was better, but it is too much of an oddball pronunciaton to
>>be
>>successful internationally.
>
> One of the worst! A Spanish speaker would presumably render it
> SOO-harrr.

Nope; "g" is pronounced hard in Spanish when followed by "a". Spanish
speakers might have trouble with the "sh" sound, though.

> I learned the old phonetic alphabet, and when I began flying I found
> that the term that stuck with me despite my best effort to abolish it
> was Baker in lieu of Bravo. The FSS briefer would always correct me.

A least you have an excuse! On two occasions I've said "october"
instead of "oscar."
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ron Garret" > wrote in message
...
>
> One could just as easily decide that the number 0 is not used in
> aircraft identifiers to avoid confusion with the letter O. Nothing
> would actually have to change.
>

One is not free to decide that. The letters I and O are not used for
aircraft registration in the US. FAR 47.15(b) would have to change.


§ 47.15 Identification number.

(b) A U.S. identification number may not exceed five symbols in addition
to
the prefix letter "N". These symbols may be all numbers (N10000), one to
four numbers and one suffix letter (N 1000A), or one to three numbers and
two suffix letters (N 100AB). The letters "I" and "O" may not be used. The
first zero in a number must always be preceded by at least one of the
numbers 1 through 9.


>
> I don't think so, but the VNY controllers don't call out the aircraft
> type. They always open with "November".
>

You are free to open with the type regardless what the controller does.

[Radio Flyer]

"Ron Garret" > wrote in message
...
> In article t>,
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:
>
>> "Ron Garret" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > No. The identifiers are identical but for the 0 and the S: N880P and
>> > N88SP are both based at VNY.
>> >
>>
>> Then you're just going to have to live with it. The letter O is not used
>> in
>> identifiers to avoid confusion with zero. Are the aircraft the same
>> type?
>
> I'm not sure. 880P is a Cirrus. I thought 88SP was a Cessna, but
> Google says it's a King Air. I've never actually seen 88SP.

I would identify myself as "Cirrus 880P", adding the "cessna" helps other
pilots to identify you in heavy traffic anyway.

>
> rg

[Ron Garret]

In article >,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> "Ron Garret" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > One could just as easily decide that the number 0 is not used in
> > aircraft identifiers to avoid confusion with the letter O. Nothing
> > would actually have to change.
> >
>
> One is not free to decide that. The letters I and O are not used for
> aircraft registration in the US. FAR 47.15(b) would have to change.

Bummer.

> > I don't think so, but the VNY controllers don't call out the aircraft
> > type. They always open with "November".
> >
>
> You are free to open with the type regardless what the controller does.

Yes, but that's not the issue. The issue is what to do when both planes
are in the pattern you hear a controller issue an instruction to
"November eight eight syrah poppa...."

rg

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ron Garret" > wrote in message
...
>
> Yes, but that's not the issue. The issue is what to do when both planes
> are in the pattern you hear a controller issue an instruction to
> "November eight eight syrah poppa...."
>

You say, "Say again".

[Frankster]

> Does anyone know what it would take to try to make this
> case to the FAA to try to get them to change their minds?
>
> rg

I'd say about 20 years :) ... to change the FAR.

I was flying out of Jefferson County Airport in Colorado around the time
that the T.V. show Mork and Mindy was popular. There was a fella who often
was in the pattern when I was who's callsign ended with 99. He would always
say "nano-nano" to acknowledge a call. :)

-Frank

[[email protected]]

Ah yes, call signs.

Great for confusion, well at least for me.
Over here we use the ICAO system to abbreviate call signs (not sure for
the US)
Any way, as a student I was not always sure they were talking to me.
For example PH-SPA can be papa alfa, papa papa alfa or sierra pappa
alfa. Next time I flew it was in something like PH-APS. Very confusing,
certainly for somebody who can not remember his telephone number,
license plate, bank account number or even what day of the week it is.
Now I'm happy.
I fly with D-EDMB. It always ends with mike bravo with maybe a delta to
start with.

That is, if you fill in your flight plan clearly.
Can remember that an air traffic controller tried to contact oscar mike
bravo all the way over Belgium, untill it dawned on delta mike bravo
that it was meant for him. Ok, neat writing is also one of my short
comings :-(

-Kees.