Talk About A Rude Company,

[NW_PILOT]

Hello, Everyone

I just called http://www.guaranteedflighttraining.com up after e-mailing
them about instrument flight training and they responded with a sales pitch
with out even addressing my questions, So I called then today talked with a
guy named mike well he was very rude, evasive and avoided answering simple
questions. When I asked him what their guarantee was he said why don't you
get flight instruction up there I told him I was looking for a better value
and the weather up here is not ideal for training environment most all
instructors will not go up in actual because flight FBO will not allow
insurance I guess or they are not comfortable with being in actual them
selves. He then asked me if I had my written test done, I said no I have
been studying but have not been signed off for the test. He then was very
rude and said Don't understand why the instructors would fly with you out
there. I told him it is not me it's their preference fbo insurance ect. he
hangs up on me that is rude. Don't deal with them they sound like a fly by
night operation out to take large sums of money and close down.

This Company Has Triggered My Bull**** Detector.

Company Owner's Information:

Michael Upton
Guaranteed Flight Training
4142 Bannock Ave
San Diego, CA US
92117

[Peter Duniho]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
> This Company Has Triggered My Bull**** Detector.

Maybe you triggered theirs. I have gathered from your pseudonym and past
posts that "up here" is the Pacific Northwest, or thereabouts. From my
initial IFR training a decade ago, to recent competency checks, I've never
had an instructor balk at giving instruction in actual instrument
conditions. I had 20 hours of actual when I passed my instrument checkride.

Based on my experience, I find your self-admitted claims that instruction in
actual instrument conditions is unavailable to be outright false. Who knows
what else you said to the folks that was similarly unfounded (after all,
we're just getting one side of the story...I'm sure we'd have at least a
slightly different "take" if there was an actual audio recording of your
conversation we could listen to).

Maybe they just don't want someone who hasn't done due diligence in their
own neighborhood coming down to California and having unreasonable
expectations about what's possible there?

Pete

[Andrew Gideon]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> Maybe you triggered theirs.

I was thinking the same thing, but for a different reason. If the OP speaks
as he writes, well, anyone's BS meter will be ringing.

- Andrew

[C J Campbell]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
>
> This Company Has Triggered My Bull**** Detector.
>

You certainly have triggered mine. Every instructor I know up here will fly
in actual. Of course, given the attitude, I suspect that it is simply that
nobody wants to fly with you.

[Almarz]

In any event, if you don't like ANYTHING about a place where you're
plunking your money down, take it elsewhere! Screw the folks that are
turning it around and blaming it on you. It's all about the CUSTOMER.
When these slobs realize that, they'll be better off. Until then, let
them bitch and complain about how they can't make a living.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:19:58 -0800, "C J Campbell"
> wrote:

>
>"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> This Company Has Triggered My Bull**** Detector.
>>
>
>You certainly have triggered mine. Every instructor I know up here will fly
>in actual. Of course, given the attitude, I suspect that it is simply that
>nobody wants to fly with you.
>

[C J Campbell]

"Almarz" > wrote in message
...
> In any event, if you don't like ANYTHING about a place where you're
> plunking your money down, take it elsewhere! Screw the folks that are
> turning it around and blaming it on you. It's all about the CUSTOMER.
> When these slobs realize that, they'll be better off. Until then, let
> them bitch and complain about how they can't make a living.
>

Good flight instructors are as picky about their students as good students
are picky of their flight instructors. If a student gives me the creeps, is
rude, or has an attitude problem, he can take his business elsewhere.

[Gary Drescher]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
> I just called http://www.guaranteedflighttraining.com up after e-mailing
> them about instrument flight training and they responded with a sales
> pitch
> with out even addressing my questions, So I called then today talked with
> a
> guy named mike well he was very rude, evasive and avoided answering simple
> questions. When I asked him what their guarantee was he said why don't you
> get flight instruction up there...

NW, the web site you cite explains their guarantee: if you don't obtain your
rating by the time they quoted you, your remaining training for the rating
will be free of flight-instruction charges.

--Gary

[NW_PILOT]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
...
> "NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I just called http://www.guaranteedflighttraining.com up after e-mailing
> > them about instrument flight training and they responded with a sales
> > pitch
> > with out even addressing my questions, So I called then today talked
with
> > a
> > guy named mike well he was very rude, evasive and avoided answering
simple
> > questions. When I asked him what their guarantee was he said why don't
you
> > get flight instruction up there...
>
> NW, the web site you cite explains their guarantee: if you don't obtain
your
> rating by the time they quoted you, your remaining training for the rating
> will be free of flight-instruction charges.
>
> --Gary
>
>

When I called them and asked them for a quote and to see their written
guarantee they avoid the question. Call any legitimate company that offers a
written guarantee they will let you see the guarantee or read it to you over
the phone. There has to be some sort of catch if they avoid the question or
there is actually no written guarantee. I am not going to travel to their
flight school if they cannot back up what they say on their web site with a
legal written document. They could fax me a copy of it e-mail me a copy of
it for my review they could post their guarantee on their web site. It is my
responsibility as a customer to do due diligence on anyone I deal with and I
was just sharing my experience about that company, they were very rude and
unprofessional!

[Bob Gardner]

Unfortunately, Seattle Flight Service, Inc. no longer exists...but when it
did, I had no problem in shepherding students through their instrument
training 12 months out of the year.

Bob Gardner

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
> Hello, Everyone
>
> I just called http://www.guaranteedflighttraining.com up after e-mailing
> them about instrument flight training and they responded with a sales
> pitch
> with out even addressing my questions, So I called then today talked with
> a
> guy named mike well he was very rude, evasive and avoided answering simple
> questions. When I asked him what their guarantee was he said why don't you
> get flight instruction up there I told him I was looking for a better
> value
> and the weather up here is not ideal for training environment most all
> instructors will not go up in actual because flight FBO will not allow
> insurance I guess or they are not comfortable with being in actual them
> selves. He then asked me if I had my written test done, I said no I have
> been studying but have not been signed off for the test. He then was very
> rude and said Don't understand why the instructors would fly with you out
> there. I told him it is not me it's their preference fbo insurance ect. he
> hangs up on me that is rude. Don't deal with them they sound like a fly by
> night operation out to take large sums of money and close down.
>
> This Company Has Triggered My Bull**** Detector.
>
> Company Owner's Information:
>
> Michael Upton
> Guaranteed Flight Training
> 4142 Bannock Ave
> San Diego, CA US
> 92117
>
>

[NW_PILOT]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Almarz" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In any event, if you don't like ANYTHING about a place where you're
> > plunking your money down, take it elsewhere! Screw the folks that are
> > turning it around and blaming it on you. It's all about the CUSTOMER.
> > When these slobs realize that, they'll be better off. Until then, let
> > them bitch and complain about how they can't make a living.
> >
>
> Good flight instructors are as picky about their students as good students
> are picky of their flight instructors. If a student gives me the creeps,
is
> rude, or has an attitude problem, he can take his business elsewhere.
>
>

I agree but its my money I am spending and it had to be earned with hard
work! I have already been shafted once on my private training and had to go
finish at another flight school witch ended up costing me more money than I
needed to spend. I guess the education I recived from that experience was
worth the extra money spent. I will not make them mistakes again!

Some flight instructor or fbo is going to get a large chunk of
http://www.warflying.net/money.jpg and its not going to be someone that
don't want to work, is under qualified or a company I feel is not going to
give what they agreed upon. Someone like me that want to fly 3 more hours
per day 5 times a week needs an instructor around that can accommodate my
schedule. I want to make dame sure an instructor will show up on time also.
The instructor must also have the experience and the knowledge that I seek
to learn from. Being a flight instructor for a living makes you a business.

I could see flight instructors doing it on the side with little free time
picking and chousing their students but I don't want to here one complaint
on how they are not making any money! If they work an FBO and the FBO brings
them students then they should not be so picky until they at leased fly with
the student. Not every one is perfect, not every one learns the material int
the same way. That is why their are many flight instructors out there.

My first primarry flight instructor was a good instructor but had a bit of
an attitude when you did something wrong and was not calm he scared me a
little.

My second primarry flight instructor was an Excellent Flight instructor but
worked for a FBO that was not stable and the owners were a bunch of crooks.
Wish he did not give up flight instruction for the airlines or we would not
be having this conversation I would have paid him $50.00 or more an hour to
be able to have him as my instructor for my instrument rating. He did not
hold any of his knowledge or skills back and was a straight forward and
adapted to my learning style.

I have flown with a few other flight instructors, most were not very
professional and will not adapt to my learning style so I am seeking out
other areas to meet my instruction needs.

[Wizard of Draws]

On 12/17/04 9:53 PM, in article ,
"NW_PILOT" > wrote:

>
> When I called them and asked them for a quote and to see their written
> guarantee they avoid the question. Call any legitimate company that offers a
> written guarantee they will let you see the guarantee or read it to you over
> the phone. There has to be some sort of catch if they avoid the question or
> there is actually no written guarantee. I am not going to travel to their
> flight school if they cannot back up what they say on their web site with a
> legal written document. They could fax me a copy of it e-mail me a copy of
> it for my review they could post their guarantee on their web site. It is my
> responsibility as a customer to do due diligence on anyone I deal with and I
> was just sharing my experience about that company, they were very rude and
> unprofessional!
>
>
>

From what I understood of the guarantee posted on their website
(http://www.guaranteedflighttraining.com/gft.htm), it appears that they need
to assess you in person before they can give an estimate of how long it will
take you to attain the certificate or rating.

It sounds like they recognize that everyone is different and it wouldn't be
practical to give a quote over the phone for something as personalized as
time to solo or pass the practical.

The "catch" that I noticed was that outside of the quoted time frame, you
won't pay for the instruction, meaning you will pay for Hobbs time.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

The Wizard's 2004 Christmas newsletter
http://www.wizardofdraws.com/main/xmas04.html

[[email protected]]

If there was an outfit that actually had a guarantee that they would
provide the extra hours necessary to complete the program without an
extra charge, they would have to charge all the students extra to cover
the occasional student that needed the extra time. I know of no
reputable flight school that offers such a guarantee. Free time in the
air doesn't exist, SOMEONE has to pay for it!!! Repeat the
aforementioned sentence until you believe it.

If you want to get your rating quickly, and it minimum hours, why don't
you go to Schelble's or some similar outfit that is geared towards
getting your through the program in minimum hours. Look for an outfit
that, when you arrive, they schedule your checkride. Downside is, you
have to pay room and board while you are there. The frustration factor
is lowered however and you get to compare yourself with other student's
(a humbling experience for many of us), because many of these schools
have a student ride in the backseat to observe (and learn).

Be aware that if you go this route, you will have to be prepared to
train YOURSELF to be a safe proficient IFR pilot, probably by setting
higher minimums on cloud decks and more stringent restrictions due to
weather for your first few hours in IMC. This is not bad advice for
most pilots coming out of training, anyway.

[Brad Zeigler]

You seem to have a history of creating conflict: your private training, your
shopping for an aircraft, and now more flight training. Every other post
from you is about something not going your way. You may want to reconsider
who the bull****ter truly is.



"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
> Hello, Everyone
>
> I just called http://www.guaranteedflighttraining.com up after e-mailing
> them about instrument flight training and they responded with a sales
pitch
> with out even addressing my questions, So I called then today talked with
a
> guy named mike well he was very rude, evasive and avoided answering simple
> questions. When I asked him what their guarantee was he said why don't you
> get flight instruction up there I told him I was looking for a better
value
> and the weather up here is not ideal for training environment most all
> instructors will not go up in actual because flight FBO will not allow
> insurance I guess or they are not comfortable with being in actual them
> selves. He then asked me if I had my written test done, I said no I have
> been studying but have not been signed off for the test. He then was very
> rude and said Don't understand why the instructors would fly with you out
> there. I told him it is not me it's their preference fbo insurance ect. he
> hangs up on me that is rude. Don't deal with them they sound like a fly by
> night operation out to take large sums of money and close down.
>
> This Company Has Triggered My Bull**** Detector.
>
> Company Owner's Information:
>
> Michael Upton
> Guaranteed Flight Training
> 4142 Bannock Ave
> San Diego, CA US
> 92117
>
>

[NW_PILOT]

"Brad Zeigler" > wrote in message
...
> You seem to have a history of creating conflict: your private training,
your
> shopping for an aircraft, and now more flight training. Every other post
> from you is about something not going your way. You may want to
reconsider
> who the bull****ter truly is.

Creating conflict? I dont think so! As for my private training the company i
went through right now cannot keep instructors or airplaines and is on its
way out of business, As for purchasing an airplane I had limited funds to
work with and I had to weed through all the junk and junk dealers but in the
end I found a great deal and a great airplane. As for more flight training I
am just trying to weed out the crooks vs. the honst people its my right to
do so. I will share my opinion about the companys that I think are crooks
its my opinion.

You people can pick apart my post all you want so be it, I really don't give
a ****!!!! If this post helps one person from getting their hard earned
money ripped off by this company or have to deal with their arrogance this
post will have served its purpose.

There are a lot of good honest people in aviation and them people know who
they are, they help the GA community and I highly respect them. If you read
my past posts you will see I dont give up on anything. There will be an
honest flight school or instructor out there that will get my hard earned
cash the others will not get 1 cent.

Caveat Emptor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NW_PILOT]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> If there was an outfit that actually had a guarantee that they would
> provide the extra hours necessary to complete the program without an
> extra charge, they would have to charge all the students extra to cover
> the occasional student that needed the extra time. I know of no
> reputable flight school that offers such a guarantee. Free time in the
> air doesn't exist, SOMEONE has to pay for it!!! Repeat the
> aforementioned sentence until you believe it.
>
> If you want to get your rating quickly, and it minimum hours, why don't
> you go to Schelble's or some similar outfit that is geared towards
> getting your through the program in minimum hours. Look for an outfit
> that, when you arrive, they schedule your checkride. Downside is, you
> have to pay room and board while you are there. The frustration factor
> is lowered however and you get to compare yourself with other student's
> (a humbling experience for many of us), because many of these schools
> have a student ride in the backseat to observe (and learn).
>
> Be aware that if you go this route, you will have to be prepared to
> train YOURSELF to be a safe proficient IFR pilot, probably by setting
> higher minimums on cloud decks and more stringent restrictions due to
> weather for your first few hours in IMC. This is not bad advice for
> most pilots coming out of training, anyway.
>

Thanks for your advice, I am not looking for the 2 week warrior type of
training but I may have to resort to that, I am just looking for an honest
company to deal with I would work locally if the fbo's were reasonable
priced for the quality and type of instruction I will be receiving and
aircraft I will be flying. I would like to be a competent & safe IFR pilot.

[Matt Whiting]

NW_PILOT wrote:

> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>If there was an outfit that actually had a guarantee that they would
>>provide the extra hours necessary to complete the program without an
>>extra charge, they would have to charge all the students extra to cover
>>the occasional student that needed the extra time. I know of no
>>reputable flight school that offers such a guarantee. Free time in the
>>air doesn't exist, SOMEONE has to pay for it!!! Repeat the
>>aforementioned sentence until you believe it.
>>
>>If you want to get your rating quickly, and it minimum hours, why don't
>>you go to Schelble's or some similar outfit that is geared towards
>>getting your through the program in minimum hours. Look for an outfit
>>that, when you arrive, they schedule your checkride. Downside is, you
>>have to pay room and board while you are there. The frustration factor
>>is lowered however and you get to compare yourself with other student's
>>(a humbling experience for many of us), because many of these schools
>>have a student ride in the backseat to observe (and learn).
>>
>>Be aware that if you go this route, you will have to be prepared to
>>train YOURSELF to be a safe proficient IFR pilot, probably by setting
>>higher minimums on cloud decks and more stringent restrictions due to
>>weather for your first few hours in IMC. This is not bad advice for
>>most pilots coming out of training, anyway.
>>
>
>
> Thanks for your advice, I am not looking for the 2 week warrior type of
> training but I may have to resort to that, I am just looking for an honest
> company to deal with I would work locally if the fbo's were reasonable
> priced for the quality and type of instruction I will be receiving and
> aircraft I will be flying. I would like to be a competent & safe IFR pilot.

I don't know why you think that it is only your area that has bad FBOs
and poor flight instruction. There are good and bad everywhere, it
isn't localized to just your region. The reality is that there is very
little margin in flight instruction and airplane rental these days.
Most FBOs are working on the edge of bankruptcy and they have to be at
least as careful about their students as the students must be about
their instructors. It sounds to me that you come across, probably
unintentionally, as a "high maintenance" student who will only cause the
FBO grief later with your desire for guarantees. There are no
guarantees in life and certainly not in flight instruction. Almost all
of the guarantees have fine print with a number of exclusions.

I'd say quit looking for guarantees and look instead for a good flight
instructor and a decent aircraft. It is certainly OK to qualify the FBO
and instructor, but once you get to the 20th question and start asking
for guarantees, I don't blame them for writing you off as potential
trouble and hanging up. The best question to ask is for a list of their
references. Try to get the last 5 students (not just any 5 which allows
them to pick the happy ones only). This may not be possible due to
privacy concerns, but it is an easy question to ask and, if successful
in getting the list, saves having to ask 19 more questions and beginning
to raise the "high maintenance" red flag.


Matt

[Gary Drescher]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
>> NW, the web site you cite explains their guarantee: if you don't
>> obtain your rating by the time they quoted you, your remaining
>> training for the rating will be free of flight-instruction charges.
>
> When I called them and asked them for a quote and to see their
> written guarantee they avoid the question.

I guess I don't see why the statement on their web site doesn't constitute a
written guarantee. (The quoted time presumably depends on their assessment
of your experience and ability, and so requires them to know more about
you.)

--Gary

[C J Campbell]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
>
> Some flight instructor or fbo is going to get a large chunk of
> http://www.warflying.net/money.jpg and its not going to be someone that
> don't want to work, is under qualified or a company I feel is not going to
> give what they agreed upon. Someone like me that want to fly 3 more hours
> per day 5 times a week needs an instructor around that can accommodate my
> schedule.

Has it occurred to you that you might not want to fly with any flight
instructor that has that much time available?

[NW_PILOT]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> NW_PILOT wrote:
>
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >
> >>If there was an outfit that actually had a guarantee that they would
> >>provide the extra hours necessary to complete the program without an
> >>extra charge, they would have to charge all the students extra to cover
> >>the occasional student that needed the extra time. I know of no
> >>reputable flight school that offers such a guarantee. Free time in the
> >>air doesn't exist, SOMEONE has to pay for it!!! Repeat the
> >>aforementioned sentence until you believe it.
> >>
> >>If you want to get your rating quickly, and it minimum hours, why don't
> >>you go to Schelble's or some similar outfit that is geared towards
> >>getting your through the program in minimum hours. Look for an outfit
> >>that, when you arrive, they schedule your checkride. Downside is, you
> >>have to pay room and board while you are there. The frustration factor
> >>is lowered however and you get to compare yourself with other student's
> >>(a humbling experience for many of us), because many of these schools
> >>have a student ride in the backseat to observe (and learn).
> >>
> >>Be aware that if you go this route, you will have to be prepared to
> >>train YOURSELF to be a safe proficient IFR pilot, probably by setting
> >>higher minimums on cloud decks and more stringent restrictions due to
> >>weather for your first few hours in IMC. This is not bad advice for
> >>most pilots coming out of training, anyway.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your advice, I am not looking for the 2 week warrior type of
> > training but I may have to resort to that, I am just looking for an
honest
> > company to deal with I would work locally if the fbo's were reasonable
> > priced for the quality and type of instruction I will be receiving and
> > aircraft I will be flying. I would like to be a competent & safe IFR
pilot.
>
> I don't know why you think that it is only your area that has bad FBOs
> and poor flight instruction. There are good and bad everywhere, it
> isn't localized to just your region. The reality is that there is very
> little margin in flight instruction and airplane rental these days.
> Most FBOs are working on the edge of bankruptcy and they have to be at
> least as careful about their students as the students must be about
> their instructors. It sounds to me that you come across, probably
> unintentionally, as a "high maintenance" student who will only cause the
> FBO grief later with your desire for guarantees. There are no
> guarantees in life and certainly not in flight instruction. Almost all
> of the guarantees have fine print with a number of exclusions.
>
> I'd say quit looking for guarantees and look instead for a good flight
> instructor and a decent aircraft. It is certainly OK to qualify the FBO
> and instructor, but once you get to the 20th question and start asking
> for guarantees, I don't blame them for writing you off as potential
> trouble and hanging up. The best question to ask is for a list of their
> references. Try to get the last 5 students (not just any 5 which allows
> them to pick the happy ones only). This may not be possible due to
> privacy concerns, but it is an easy question to ask and, if successful
> in getting the list, saves having to ask 19 more questions and beginning
> to raise the "high maintenance" red flag.
>
>
> Matt
>
Hello, Matt

I am not looking for any guarantees in the instruction or amount of time I
know that's impoosible to do, it just cought my eye and wonderd what type of
writen guarante they provided. The only guarantees I am looking for is:

That the flight instructor going to be around for a certain amount of time
to finish my training?
That the flight school is financially stable and not in a sale or on the
verge of bankruptcy.
I want my instruction and rental rates guaranteed for a certain amount of
time I don't what them raising the rates as I progress in training it has
happened once already to me they raised the rates 3 times in 2 months at one
flight school.
I want to know if they have enough aircraft if one breaks down or has a
problem it will be fixed in a timly monor or I will have another aircraft to
fly at the same rental rate and that they don't plan on getting rid of the
aircraft anytime soon.

I am not asking for to much I just want to know that I am dealing with a
honest company that's not going to use fraud or deception to make a quick
dollar.

[Andrew Gideon]

C J Campbell wrote:

> You certainly have triggered mine. Every instructor I know up here will
> fly in actual. Of course, given the attitude, I suspect that it is simply
> that nobody wants to fly with you.

There's one FBO in my area where an instructor (or anyone else) would need
to be a little nuts to take the planes into IMC. That part of the OP's
complaint is, at least, somewhat credible (or at least possible; I know
nothing about the FBOs in his neighborhood).

- Andrew

[Matt Whiting]

NW_PILOT wrote:

> I am not looking for any guarantees in the instruction or amount of time I
> know that's impoosible to do, it just cought my eye and wonderd what type of
> writen guarante they provided. The only guarantees I am looking for is:
>
> That the flight instructor going to be around for a certain amount of time
> to finish my training?

You will never get that guarantee. I don't think any business will even
attempt to guarantee that and in most cases can't do it legally.
Indentured servitude went out the window years ago. In our "employment
at will" system, anyone can quit when they want and be fired at any time
by their employer. This is a case of an unreasonable expectation. I
had four flight instructors during my instrument training, including one
at FlightSafety in Lakeland, FL (since closed), that was a complete
disaster. I'd heard a lot of hype about FS, but that location didn't
live up to the hype even a little. It was worse than the two mom & pop
FBOs that I used (one before FS and one after). I finally found a great
free-lance instructor and finished my rating quickly.


> That the flight school is financially stable and not in a sale or on the
> verge of bankruptcy.

Very few private companies will disclose their financials. The only way
to know this is to only look at public corporations that offer flight
instruction. Their are probably a few of the big ones that are, but you
won't find many.


> I want my instruction and rental rates guaranteed for a certain amount of
> time I don't what them raising the rates as I progress in training it has
> happened once already to me they raised the rates 3 times in 2 months at one
> flight school.

Again, this isn't a reasonably request given the volatility of fuel
prices, insurance, etc. The only way you might get this is if you pay
the full estimated cost in advance. You are willing to do that, right?


> I want to know if they have enough aircraft if one breaks down or has a
> problem it will be fixed in a timly monor or I will have another aircraft to
> fly at the same rental rate and that they don't plan on getting rid of the
> aircraft anytime soon.

Again, very unlikely you will ever get a guarantee on this. And, again,
you have now pretty well ruled out most mom & pop FBOs and will need to
look only at large outfits such as FS, American Flyers, etc., which come
with their own baggage.


> I am not asking for to much I just want to know that I am dealing with a
> honest company that's not going to use fraud or deception to make a quick
> dollar.

You are expecting way too much for this business in today's environment.
You are asking for way more than honesty and lack of fraud, you are
asking for guarantees on things that no business, let along an FBO, can
provide. I can see now why you had such a bad experience on the phone
with the San Diego FBO. You problem is staring at you from your
bathroom mirror, I believe.


Matt

[Peter Duniho]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> [...] That part of the OP's
> complaint is, at least, somewhat credible (or at least possible; I know
> nothing about the FBOs in his neighborhood).

CJ, "NW", and I all fly in roughly the same area. There are numerous
well-qualified schools and instructors here who are perfectly willing to
train students in actual conditions.

[[email protected]]

I was trying to get my Instrument rating. Had problems with scheduling
a/c and instructors. Funny how all the CFIIs & FBO changed their tune
when they found out that I went to a 141 school (where I had to re-take
the written, you have to do theirs) and plunked down a few grand. They
all started saying that if I wanted it that bad they could've....

Now I'm getting the silent treatment when asking about commercial with
FBOs that advertise finish up courses. I have contacted three different
places that advertise commercial and multi. One even says you can get
an MEI with them. Email them my quals and ask what it will take (they
claim to do custom training based on your quals). So far I've gotten no
answers (and I've told them that I will fly my own plane to their
location).

No flight school where I am has a multi, and where I'm based they don't
have a complex. So I'm having to go elsewhere. The 141 school (kinda
local) takes 30 days to get you to CFI (that's the way their training
program runs), you must have commercial when you start.
Later,
Steve.T
PP-ASEL/Instrument

[Andrew Gideon]

Matt Whiting wrote:

> Indentured servitude went out the window years ago.

Seriously?! My boss tells a different story.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> CJ, "NW", and I all fly in roughly the same area. There are numerous
> well-qualified schools and instructors here who are perfectly willing to
> train students in actual conditions.

Hmm. Then my next thought, given the context, is "burning bridges". Still,
sthompson's story is not that dissimilar to NW's.

Strange.

After many conversations with a couple of CFIs with whom I fly, I've come to
a conclusion: They're lousy businessmen. Believe it or not, they do all
they can to train their students in the most cost-effective way possible.
What the hell are they thinking?

<Laugh>

- Andrew

[Matt Whiting]

Andrew Gideon wrote:

> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>
>>Indentured servitude went out the window years ago.
>
>
> Seriously?! My boss tells a different story.

Where do you work, Disney Land? :-)


Matt

[SR]

On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 02:19:27 -0800, "NW_PILOT" >
wrote:


>
>Caveat Emptor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


In this case I think Caveat Venditor is more appropriate.

[Journeyman]

In article >, Peter Duniho wrote:
> "Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
> online.com...
>> [...] That part of the OP's
>> complaint is, at least, somewhat credible (or at least possible; I know
>> nothing about the FBOs in his neighborhood).
>
> CJ, "NW", and I all fly in roughly the same area. There are numerous
> well-qualified schools and instructors here who are perfectly willing to
> train students in actual conditions.

I know CJ's in the Seattle area. IIRC NW's in the Portland, OR area.
Close enough, I guess. I had wound up with a little over 8 hours
actual IMC by the time I got my rating.

FWIW, I finished my IFR training with Spence Campbell over at BFI. He
specializes in IFR training and owns a sim shop at the airport. His
program integrates sim training with the flight training and he's got
tons of experience. www.serv.net/~atc

He's anything but fly-by-night, and I don't recall him having any qualms
about training in IMC (except partial panel). Icing, of course, is a bit
of a problem in the Seattle area in the winter.

HTH,


Morris

[Judah]

Have you ever asked your local instructor why he won't take you up in
actual?


"NW_PILOT" > wrote in
:

> Hello, Everyone
>
> I just called http://www.guaranteedflighttraining.com up after
> e-mailing them about instrument flight training and they responded with
> a sales pitch with out even addressing my questions, So I called then
> today talked with a guy named mike well he was very rude, evasive and
> avoided answering simple questions. When I asked him what their
> guarantee was he said why don't you get flight instruction up there I
> told him I was looking for a better value and the weather up here is
> not ideal for training environment most all instructors will not go up
> in actual because flight FBO will not allow insurance I guess or they
> are not comfortable with being in actual them selves. He then asked me
> if I had my written test done, I said no I have been studying but have
> not been signed off for the test. He then was very rude and said Don't
> understand why the instructors would fly with you out there. I told him
> it is not me it's their preference fbo insurance ect. he hangs up on me
> that is rude. Don't deal with them they sound like a fly by night
> operation out to take large sums of money and close down.
>
> This Company Has Triggered My Bull**** Detector.
>
> Company Owner's Information:
>
> Michael Upton
> Guaranteed Flight Training
> 4142 Bannock Ave
> San Diego, CA US
> 92117
>
>

[Judah]

Andrew Gideon > wrote in
online.com:

> C J Campbell wrote:
>
>> You certainly have triggered mine. Every instructor I know up here
>> will fly in actual. Of course, given the attitude, I suspect that it
>> is simply that nobody wants to fly with you.
>
> There's one FBO in my area where an instructor (or anyone else) would
> need to be a little nuts to take the planes into IMC. That part of the
> OP's complaint is, at least, somewhat credible (or at least possible; I
> know nothing about the FBOs in his neighborhood).
>
> - Andrew
>
>

The thing that makes it incredible is his inability to provide an actual
reason for why no instructor will take a plane up in actual.

Had he said that the equipment at his FBO was not up to par, there would
have been no question by the remote Flight School, all other things being
equal. I'm sure a bunch of the r.a. regulars would have suggested he
switch to a different FBO...

I could be wrong, but I suspect that most CFIIs prefer to give their IFR
students SOME actual before the training is over. I know several of the
instructors that I have worked with in the past believed strongly that
the sensation of actual is unique for someone who has sat behind foggles
for all of his training, and prefer to be in the right seat the first
time it happens to a student.

The thought of an instructor refusing to fly in actual with a pilot
training for IFR smells of a pilot with a reputation for being unsafe.
And if he doesn't have a reasonable explanation for it, he may never have
really asked, and is just "kicking tires"...

[NW_PILOT]

"Judah" > wrote in message
. ..
> Have you ever asked your local instructor why he won't take you up in
> actual?


They don't want to take a beginning IFR student in actual, ware I am at we
get a lot of IFR days this time a year, they also say the 150's and 172's
are under powered for actual conditions they also say something else about
their insurance. It don't matter anymore I have had 2 flight instructors
contact me from Usenet they sound like reasonable high time freelance
instructors with a lot of free time. I will probably be working with one of
them this winter using my airplane also since it has 2 VOR's, GS, DME, ADF,
Current IFR Pito/Static Test.

[Journeyman]

In article >, Judah wrote:
>
> I could be wrong, but I suspect that most CFIIs prefer to give their IFR
> students SOME actual before the training is over. I know several of the
> instructors that I have worked with in the past believed strongly that
> the sensation of actual is unique for someone who has sat behind foggles
> for all of his training, and prefer to be in the right seat the first
> time it happens to a student.

I've talked to CFIs who moved to Seattle specifically to get IMC time
for themselves. Of course they'll train in IMC.

OTOH, I'm not sure how eager a CFI would be taking someone up IMC during
the first, oh, 1/3 of the training, where you're just doing basic
attitude flying by instruments.

I remember days early on my IFR training, where we'd file to VFR on top, get
through the cloud layer, do the maneuvers, then shoot an instrument approach
back to base.


Morris

[JK]

> Email them my quals and ask what it will take

I've found that many flight schools are very bad about replying to
email, and likely don't even check it.
If you haven't called these schools yet, I'd suggest you try.
Jill
CP-ASEL

[Andrew Gideon]

NW_PILOT wrote:

> They don't want to take a beginning IFR student in actual

That's actually reasonable, in my experience. At that point, actual would
largely be a waste of your time and money.

Early in your training, you're working on improving your ability to control
the airplane w/o visual reference (and then w/o certain instruments). This
involves a lot of turning and climbing and such. Unless you're somewhere
where your CFI can get you a clearance for a block of airspace, then this
isn't possible in actual.

I'm no CFI, though, so keep a grain of salt with you as you read this.

- Andrew

[Michael]

>> They don't want to take a beginning IFR student in actual

>That's actually reasonable, in my experience. At that point, actual
would
>largely be a waste of your time and money.

I've heard that argument before, and I don't agree with it, though I
can easily see why it might sound compelling.

Maneuvers are all well and good, but IMO what a beginning instrument
student needs more than anything is just time controlling the airplane
by instruments - level flight, turns to headings, climbs and descents,
tracking a VOR/ADF/GPS/whatever - the fundamentals of IFR flight.
Sure, he might need a little help on the departure or approach, but
most of the flight he can handle - and it's great training. The reason
I think many instructors are not too comfortable with doing it is
simple - the student WILL bank the plane to 60 degrees. He WILL let
the airspeed decay almost to stall. He WILL mishandle the plane. But
truly, you need to be off heading for a while before you get off
course, and a 1000 ft block altitude is usually not hard to get. As
long as the instructor is comfortable that he can recover from an
unusual attitude (induced by the student) in IMC without drama, or
better yet talk the student through the recovery, it's not a big deal.
Thing is, some instructors are not terribly comfortable with that.

If the goal is to get the student to the checkride in minimum time,
then this isn't the most efficient way to go. In fact, if that's the
goal, doing any training at night and/or in IMC is not recommended.
But if the goal is to train a student capable of using his airplane to
go places in lousy weather (down to mins) day or night, then more and
earlier exposure to IMC is best. I'm a pretty strong advocate of IMC
early and often, and have even had a low time (about 150 hours) private
pilot with no complex or high performance experience flying actual
night IMC on his second IFR lesson - the first in his Bonanza that he
just purchased that day.

Michael

[NW_PILOT]

"Michael" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> >> They don't want to take a beginning IFR student in actual
>
> >That's actually reasonable, in my experience. At that point, actual
> would
> >largely be a waste of your time and money.
>
> I've heard that argument before, and I don't agree with it, though I
> can easily see why it might sound compelling.
>
> Maneuvers are all well and good, but IMO what a beginning instrument
> student needs more than anything is just time controlling the airplane
> by instruments - level flight, turns to headings, climbs and descents,
> tracking a VOR/ADF/GPS/whatever - the fundamentals of IFR flight.
> Sure, he might need a little help on the departure or approach, but
> most of the flight he can handle - and it's great training. The reason
> I think many instructors are not too comfortable with doing it is
> simple - the student WILL bank the plane to 60 degrees. He WILL let
> the airspeed decay almost to stall. He WILL mishandle the plane. But
> truly, you need to be off heading for a while before you get off
> course, and a 1000 ft block altitude is usually not hard to get. As
> long as the instructor is comfortable that he can recover from an
> unusual attitude (induced by the student) in IMC without drama, or
> better yet talk the student through the recovery, it's not a big deal.
> Thing is, some instructors are not terribly comfortable with that.
>
> If the goal is to get the student to the checkride in minimum time,
> then this isn't the most efficient way to go. In fact, if that's the
> goal, doing any training at night and/or in IMC is not recommended.
> But if the goal is to train a student capable of using his airplane to
> go places in lousy weather (down to mins) day or night, then more and
> earlier exposure to IMC is best. I'm a pretty strong advocate of IMC
> early and often, and have even had a low time (about 150 hours) private
> pilot with no complex or high performance experience flying actual
> night IMC on his second IFR lesson - the first in his Bonanza that he
> just purchased that day.
>
> Michael
>

My feeling's also I am not trying to get it in the quickest time possible i
just love to fly, I fell if I get exposed to it early on the better I will
know what it feels like. I don't see how any one can do all their training
with a hood and feel save in actual but I have never been so I don't know
what that is like. My 150 costs me very little to operate why use a
simulator when I have the real thing available maybe it will take longer but
I feel I will get more skill actually flying then in a simulator. But all is
taken care of I have found me an instructor that don't mind actual but
prefers it and is ok using my 150 for the training now talk about a savings.

This is what we have planned sounds really fun.

30 to 50 hours in my 150 & about 10 hours in an arrow add the extra systems
to the mix of things (my choice)

I plan on flying 2 to 3 hours per day 4 to 5 times a week.

1 hour ground preflight

1 hour ground post flight.

I would like to fly 3 to 4 hours per day but he said 3 max in 1 day is
enough.

So how Much is 2 Much?

[Aaron Coolidge]

In rec.aviation.owning Michael > wrote:
:>> They don't want to take a beginning IFR student in actual
<snip>
: I've heard that argument before, and I don't agree with it, though I
: can easily see why it might sound compelling.
<snip>
: early and often, and have even had a low time (about 150 hours) private
: pilot with no complex or high performance experience flying actual
: night IMC on his second IFR lesson - the first in his Bonanza that he
: just purchased that day.

Michael I totally agree with you. I hired a CFII and picked up my airplane
in Los Angeles as a 75-hour PP. We flew 2 days (almost 25 hours) of actual
instrument time to get the plane back to Mass. This was a most beneficial
experience.
--
Aaron Coolidge

[Michael]

>My 150 costs me very little to operate why use a
>simulator when I have the real thing available maybe it will take
longer but
>I feel I will get more skill actually flying then in a simulator.

Actually, I think you are off base there. There are things you can do
with a sim that you can't really do with the real airplane in terms of
system failures. Only thing is, certified sims (at the light GA level
- I'm not talking about the stuff with visuals and motion) are a waste
of time and money. They are inferior training tools to Microsoft
Flight Sim. No, you can't log the MSFS time (except as ground
instruction) but it's quite valuable - and a copy of MSFS costs less
than an hour in one of those sims.

BTW, I see nothing wrong with using a C-150 for IFR training. It's not
really a practical IFR travel machine, but it does fine if you want to
make hundred mile hops in benign IMC.

As for max 3 in a day - yes, usually, but I've had a student who was
able to handle more. Only one, though.

Michael

[gatt]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message

> Good flight instructors are as picky about their students as good students
> are picky of their flight instructors. If a student gives me the creeps,
is
> rude, or has an attitude problem, he can take his business elsewhere.

It's a good idea to actually meet a potential customer before you pass
judgements on him.

=c

[gatt]

Talk to Marv or Delcy at Gorge Winds Aviation in Troutdale. 503.665.2823
I did my instrument ground and practical work through them and passed both
the written and the checkride on the first try in October.

Heck, you could just fly your ol' hoss across the river. If it's not IFR
equipped, they train in a 180hp Cessna 172 that's a really nice plane.
Rates are $80/hr for the airplane and $35/hr for the instructor, but
instruction time comes right off the Hobbes. They do weekend IFR written
prep courses three or four times a year and there's a testing facility
onsite.

Delcy is an Air Force Academy graduate and an officer in the US Air Force
Reserve, and Marv, the FBO owner, is a retired deputy sheriff, former mayor
and retired career Marine. -Really- good people.

Troutdale is a great airport and most of the practice work is out of
Battleground VOR to Scapoose, or Aurora, Hillsboro and McMinnville.

-gattman


"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Almarz" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In any event, if you don't like ANYTHING about a place where you're
> > > plunking your money down, take it elsewhere! Screw the folks that are
> > > turning it around and blaming it on you. It's all about the CUSTOMER.
> > > When these slobs realize that, they'll be better off. Until then, let
> > > them bitch and complain about how they can't make a living.
> > >
> >
> > Good flight instructors are as picky about their students as good
students
> > are picky of their flight instructors. If a student gives me the creeps,
> is
> > rude, or has an attitude problem, he can take his business elsewhere.
> >
> >
>
> I agree but its my money I am spending and it had to be earned with hard
> work! I have already been shafted once on my private training and had to
go
> finish at another flight school witch ended up costing me more money than
I
> needed to spend. I guess the education I recived from that experience was
> worth the extra money spent. I will not make them mistakes again!
>
> Some flight instructor or fbo is going to get a large chunk of
> http://www.warflying.net/money.jpg and its not going to be someone that
> don't want to work, is under qualified or a company I feel is not going to
> give what they agreed upon. Someone like me that want to fly 3 more hours
> per day 5 times a week needs an instructor around that can accommodate my
> schedule. I want to make dame sure an instructor will show up on time
also.
> The instructor must also have the experience and the knowledge that I seek
> to learn from. Being a flight instructor for a living makes you a
business.
>
> I could see flight instructors doing it on the side with little free time
> picking and chousing their students but I don't want to here one complaint
> on how they are not making any money! If they work an FBO and the FBO
brings
> them students then they should not be so picky until they at leased fly
with
> the student. Not every one is perfect, not every one learns the material
int
> the same way. That is why their are many flight instructors out there.
>
> My first primarry flight instructor was a good instructor but had a bit of
> an attitude when you did something wrong and was not calm he scared me a
> little.
>
> My second primarry flight instructor was an Excellent Flight instructor
but
> worked for a FBO that was not stable and the owners were a bunch of
crooks.
> Wish he did not give up flight instruction for the airlines or we would
not
> be having this conversation I would have paid him $50.00 or more an hour
to
> be able to have him as my instructor for my instrument rating. He did not
> hold any of his knowledge or skills back and was a straight forward and
> adapted to my learning style.
>
> I have flown with a few other flight instructors, most were not very
> professional and will not adapt to my learning style so I am seeking out
> other areas to meet my instruction needs.
>
>

[gatt]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message

> CJ, "NW", and I all fly in roughly the same area. There are numerous
> well-qualified schools and instructors here who are perfectly willing to
> train students in actual conditions.

Right across the river from NW, I trained in and then passed my exam in IMC.

Piece of cake.

-c

[gatt]

Oh, yeah...and if you have time to burn and still want to save money, check
out the aviation program at Mt Hood Community College. You'd still fly
locally--I still recommend Gorge Winds over the other FBO--but MHCC has an
instrument simulator as well that is $50/hr with instruction.

Having said that, I never used the sim. Now I'm looking at extending my
financial debt to pay for my commercial training. :<

-c

[Judah]

That's a fair statement that I didn't consider because of my own
experience.

It largely depends on what the student's experience level is. When I
started my IFR training, I had around 200 hours of flight time, mostly
PIC, mostly Cross Country. When I sat down with my instructor and the
syllabus, the first two flights took us through something like Lesson #22
because controlling the plane to IFR PTS tolerances was not an issue.

However, someone who has 75 hours of flight experience of which 65 hours
were training for his PPL is probably not going to be able to start with
the IFR training, and would probably not be a good candidate for
significant flight in the soup. (Flight through some a layer of Scattered
Cumulus might not be a bad thing even at that experience level though.)



Journeyman > wrote in
:

> In article >, Judah wrote:
>>
>> I could be wrong, but I suspect that most CFIIs prefer to give their
>> IFR students SOME actual before the training is over. I know several
>> of the instructors that I have worked with in the past believed
>> strongly that the sensation of actual is unique for someone who has
>> sat behind foggles for all of his training, and prefer to be in the
>> right seat the first time it happens to a student.
>
> I've talked to CFIs who moved to Seattle specifically to get IMC time
> for themselves. Of course they'll train in IMC.
>
> OTOH, I'm not sure how eager a CFI would be taking someone up IMC
> during the first, oh, 1/3 of the training, where you're just doing
> basic attitude flying by instruments.
>
> I remember days early on my IFR training, where we'd file to VFR on
> top, get through the cloud layer, do the maneuvers, then shoot an
> instrument approach back to base.
>
>
> Morris
>

[C J Campbell]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
>
> > Good flight instructors are as picky about their students as good
students
> > are picky of their flight instructors. If a student gives me the creeps,
> is
> > rude, or has an attitude problem, he can take his business elsewhere.
>
> It's a good idea to actually meet a potential customer before you pass
> judgements on him.

Absolutely. Otherwise how would you know what kind of a guy he is?

[Victor J. Osborne, Jr.]

Just a thought to pass on to anyone who thinks one customer doesn't mean
anything:

Source: White House Office of Consumer Affairs.
· For every customer who bothers to complain, there are 26 others who remain
silent.
· The average “wronged” customer will tell 8 to 16 people.
· 91% of unhappy customers will never purchase services from you again.
· It costs about fives times as much to attract a new customer as it costs
to keep an old one.
· Bottom Line – For every complaint, there are about 250 more customers with
problems or potential customers who hear bad things about you.

FWIW. We found this to be true in our business. We lived by it.

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.