secret advice

[houstondan]

ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
you do those rolls???

i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
do?"


dan

[john smith]

Plot a V-n diagram and look where the load limits are for all airspeeds.
Calculate the various limit airspeeds at different weights and make
plots for each weight.

houstondan wrote:
> ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
> that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
> the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
> asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
> things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
> characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
> test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
> you do those rolls???
> i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
> warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
> do?"

[houstondan]

oh.


dan

[PJ Hunt]

Dan,

Although John is correct here is another way to look at it.

I don't have the POH for either aircraft in front of me but I'm fairly
certain that the speed you listed is well below Vna of both aircraft,
which means you 'should' be able to use full and abrupt control inputs
without structural damage to the airframe.

However, recovering from whatever attitude that puts you in, (including
possibly a spin) is up to you to recover without impacting anything.

As for the roll, depending on what type of roll you're performing, you may
well be not pulling more than 1G at anytime if done properly.

Of course I'm not suggesting that you go out and test this.

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

"houstondan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
> that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
> the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
> asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
> things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
> characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
> test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
> you do those rolls???
>
> i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
> warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
> do?"
>
>
> dan
>

[Dave S]

#1) Dont go skydiving without a parachute (that should be hitting close
to home if you fly where I think you do). Dont exit your own 150/2 in
flight without a qualified pilot at the controls either.

#2) Get a copy of the Cessna 150 Aerobatic Training Manual. Said book
may be out of print, but if you can find it it would be a good reference
for yanking and banking type stuff. I have my father's old copy that is
probably older than I am.

#3) Before continuing with said yanking and banking aspirations, head to
to LaPorte and get some aerobatic instruction or spin training. Even if
you don't ever intend to do such things in your own plane, its a good
exposure to just what kind of yanking and banking stuff is out there, as
well as how to recover when you overyank and over bank

Unfortunately, I can't go into any REALLY secret advice without the
secret handshake.

Dave

Disclaimer to the rest of the world: the above advice is predicated on
living in or near the Houston, Texas and being familiar with places of
business alluded to in items #1 and #3

houstondan wrote:
> ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
> that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
> the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
> asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
> things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
> characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
> test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
> you do those rolls???
>
> i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
> warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
> do?"
>
>
> dan
>

[clyde woempner]

"Dave S" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> #1) Dont go skydiving without a parachute (that should be hitting close
> to home if you fly where I think you do). Dont exit your own 150/2 in
> flight without a qualified pilot at the controls either.
>
> #2) Get a copy of the Cessna 150 Aerobatic Training Manual. Said book
> may be out of print, but if you can find it it would be a good reference
> for yanking and banking type stuff. I have my father's old copy that is
> probably older than I am.
>
> #3) Before continuing with said yanking and banking aspirations, head to
> to LaPorte and get some aerobatic instruction or spin training. Even if
> you don't ever intend to do such things in your own plane, its a good
> exposure to just what kind of yanking and banking stuff is out there, as
> well as how to recover when you overyank and over bank
>
> Unfortunately, I can't go into any REALLY secret advice without the
> secret handshake.
>
> Dave
>
> Disclaimer to the rest of the world: the above advice is predicated on
> living in or near the Houston, Texas and being familiar with places of
> business alluded to in items #1 and #3
>
> houstondan wrote:
> > ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
> > that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
> > the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
> > asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
> > things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
> > characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
> > test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
> > you do those rolls???
> >
> > i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
> > warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
> > do?"
> >
> >
> > dan
> >
> Your question has already been answered, and it sounds like you are
determined to go ahead with a bad decision. good luck.
Clyde

[kontiki]

At 80mph you are pretty safe to yank and jerk the controls all
day long. The problem is that as you are doing this you can end
up in a spin or suddendly at a much higher airspeed than you
started out at. Before I tried any fancy aerobatics I'd first
want to be in a plane certified for it and have an experienced
aerobatics pilot with me.

houstondan wrote:

> ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
> that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
> the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
> asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
> things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
> characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
> test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
> you do those rolls???
>
> i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
> warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
> do?"
>
>
> dan
>

[mike regish]

You will always pull more than 1 g coming out of a roll. If you don't pull
it coming out of the roll, you will have to pull more than 1 g at some point
to come out of the resulting dive unless you want to hit the ground. You can
stay well within the limits if the airframe, but you can go beyond them
pretty easily, too. 1 G is unaccelerated flight-either straight and level or
in a steady climb or descent. You have to pull up slightly to begin the roll
and you will go to less than 1 G when you're inverted to more than 1 G when
you roll upright and return to level flight.

I did some aerobatics in a Decathlon and what surprised me the most doing my
first barrel roll was how slow it was. I thought I would just whip around it
and be done with it, but it took some time to get all the way around. Even
snap rolls were pretty slow. This would no doubt be longer in a 172 with
what I'm pretty sure is a significantly slower roll rate than a Decathlon.
It's the reason I won't try them in my Tripacer. That would be WAY slow
going around and would probably result in more G's coming out.

mike regish


"PJ Hunt" > wrote in message
...
>
> As for the roll, depending on what type of roll you're performing, you may
> well be not pulling more than 1G at anytime if done properly.
>
> Of course I'm not suggesting that you go out and test this.
>
> PJ

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "houstondan" > said:
>i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
>warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
>do?"

Don't teach yourself aerobatics. People who try end up as smoking holes.
Get somebody who knows aerobatics to show you stuff. It doesn't have to
be a CFI, just somebody who knows what they're doing and can recover after
you put it into an inverted flat spin or whatever.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
You mean [Exchange] was deliberately written? I thought someone had
transcribed the writing on a football-stadium restroom wall, found
that it compiled, so shipped it.

[houstondan]

hey dave, re#1; yes, about a year ago one of the guys went up with a
paying client and came back down all by himself. guy just decided to
walk home, i guess.

2. got that copied-down and on the computer. ( 'round here, "on the
computer" means it's written on a yellow-stickey and affixed to the
edge of the screen!). if i can't find one, perhaps we could arrange a
"borrow" with appropriate rental and security???

3. what's at laporte? there's a citabria at weiser/windsock and they
do tailwheel/aerobatic ttraining in that. been planning to get with
them. you really hit the point there. i do think there's a big safety
issue around being able to handle different situations.

as i think about it now, the only time i've been in a 172 with some
real yankin&bankin was on the checkride when the examiner did the
"unusual attitude recovery by instrument" drill where you've got your
eyes closed, head down foggles on and he's doin everything he can to
get you discombobulated. i suspect he wanted to instill some humility
and respect. passed that and went straight to pure terror. i did
manage to get the thing back to straight and level....eventually.

damn....i knew there was gunna be a secret handshake. nobody tells me
nuttin.
thx

dan

[Casey Wilson]

"houstondan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
> that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
> the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
> asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
> things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
> characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
> test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
> you do those rolls???
>
> i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
> warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
> do?"

According to my logbook, in N8376M, a C-150 Aerobat, I've done loops,
Immelmans, snap-rolls, slow rolls, spins, hammerheads, and Cuban-S. In a
glider, I've done loops and slow rolls.
Every solo manuever was preceded by at least two and most of the
time three exercises with an instructor.
By the way, the spin is the only manuever initiated at less than
full-throttle and 120K. You can do a lot of yanking and banking (most often
resulting in a spin) at lower speeds, but the rest require significant
energy.
I did enough aerobatics to determine that I wasn't ready to invest
the $$$$$$ in the kind of airplane required to pursue the sport. It was fun,
there was some excitement, but my sweetie pie.... well, let's just say she
took a dim view.
Dig into the FARs and find the sections that relate to more than
60-degree bank and 15(?)-degree pitch, before you do anything.

[PJ Hunt]

Mike is absolutely correct.

When you perform a properly executed barrel roll you should feel 2 to 3 g's.
This would be 1-2 g's more than normal.

In this case 'normal' is considered 1g, which as Mike explained what we feel
in unaccelerated flight, just like what you normally feel while sitting in a
chair at your computer.

I worded my post incorrectly and should have said "if performed properly,
you may well not pull more than 2 gs."

Barrel rolls are not difficult by any means, however if you have never done
one and you pull back to much in the wrong place, you will be far exceeding
Vna, and possibly Vne before you can say "whoops".

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:IMWwd.281811$R05.44863@attbi_s53...
> You will always pull more than 1 g coming out of a roll. If you don't pull
> it coming out of the roll, you will have to pull more than 1 g at some
point
> to come out of the resulting dive unless you want to hit the ground. You
can
> stay well within the limits if the airframe, but you can go beyond them
> pretty easily, too. 1 G is unaccelerated flight-either straight and level
or
> in a steady climb or descent. You have to pull up slightly to begin the
roll
> and you will go to less than 1 G when you're inverted to more than 1 G
when
> you roll upright and return to level flight.
>
> I did some aerobatics in a Decathlon and what surprised me the most doing
my
> first barrel roll was how slow it was. I thought I would just whip around
it
> and be done with it, but it took some time to get all the way around. Even
> snap rolls were pretty slow. This would no doubt be longer in a 172 with
> what I'm pretty sure is a significantly slower roll rate than a Decathlon.
> It's the reason I won't try them in my Tripacer. That would be WAY slow
> going around and would probably result in more G's coming out.
>
> mike regish
>
>
> "PJ Hunt" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > As for the roll, depending on what type of roll you're performing, you
may
> > well be not pulling more than 1G at anytime if done properly.
> >
> > Of course I'm not suggesting that you go out and test this.
> >
> > PJ
>
>

[Blueskies]

We used to teach spins in the 150/152. If you haven't done 'em you should...

"houstondan" > wrote in message oups.com...
> ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
> that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
> the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
> asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
> things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
> characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
> test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
> you do those rolls???
>
> i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
> warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
> do?"
>
>
> dan
>

[houstondan]

absolutely. best i can tell, so many instructors and students got
mashed that they took spin training out . having said that, it's on
my list for very soon. probably the next couple of weeks.

dan

[[email protected]]

Yeah, they took spin training out. Teach you how to recover before
agravating the stall into a spin.

So here I am doing one of my last solo practice runs before the check
ride. Well, it *was* a tired old bird (C152) that had just gotten a new
rebuilt (20 hours). T/O Departure stall practice and I got the plane
*out of coordinated flight*, firewalled the throttle just as I dropped
the nose.

Flash of blue/white, sudden stars and then Green, Brown, Grey, Green,
Black, Brown.... and upside down (or so it seemed) and I had a headache
(bashed my head on the door frame).

Boy was I glad my father talked me though spin recovery years earlier.
Boy was I glad I had read the book on standard spin recovery. Recovered
at 3/4 turn, thottle off and 135Knotts (145 is VNE) at start of pull
out. Level at 1100AGL, had started at about 2300AGL.

I had to fly around for about 30 minutes just to calm down so I could
land.

I think spin training needs to be done, if nothing more than while on
the ground explaining what you have to do to survive to talk about it.
Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

[Kyle Boatright]

"houstondan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
> that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
> the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
> asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
> things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
> characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
> test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
> you do those rolls???
>
> i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
> warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
> do?"
>
>
> dan

Flight instruction isn't that expensive compared to the value of your butt
or the damage a dished roll can do to an airplane. Find a CFI within a
reasonable distance who'll show you how to do a roll in a Citabria or
Decathlon. An hour of instruction should be all it takes. Afterwards, if
you're dumb enough to do that stuff in your Cessna (I hope it is yours, as
it would be a really ****ty thing to do with someone elses (or a rental)
airplane), at least you'll have reduced your chances of hurting yourself.

KB

[Dave S]

houstondan wrote:


>
> 3. what's at laporte?

Harvey & Rihn Aviation is on the east side of the field. They have been
doing spin training and aerobatic stuff since before "windsock" in its
latest incarnation came to be. Havent taken training at either so I cant
comment on quality of either.


Dave

[Marty]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:IMWwd.281811$R05.44863@attbi_s53...
> I did some aerobatics in a Decathlon and what surprised me the most doing
> my first barrel roll was how slow it was. I thought I would just whip
> around it and be done with it, but it took some time to get all the way
> around. Even snap rolls were pretty slow. This would no doubt be longer in
> a 172 with what I'm pretty sure is a significantly slower roll rate than a
> Decathlon. It's the reason I won't try them in my Tripacer. That would be
> WAY slow going around and would probably result in more G's coming out.
>
> mike regish
>

I dunno Mike,
I always felt my TriPacer had a pretty snappy roll rate. It surely felt
quicker than a Skyhawk. I never tried rolling it tho, nor would I recommend
it for other reasons.

I watched a (very skilled) pilot roll a Champ, now that was slow! ;-)

Marty

[mike regish]

I'm sure it could be done, but I wouldn't want to try it in mine. One reason
is that the spin recovery in a Tripacer is different than most planes.
Somebody from the short wing piper club posted it once and it included
ailerons with the spin and just some different procedures than typical.

I'm thinking you're probably one of the first people to ever use the term
"snappy" with regard to the TP tho. ;-)

mike regish

"Marty" > wrote in message
...
>
> I dunno Mike,
> I always felt my TriPacer had a pretty snappy roll rate. It surely felt
> quicker than a Skyhawk. I never tried rolling it tho, nor would I
> recommend it for other reasons.
>
> I watched a (very skilled) pilot roll a Champ, now that was slow! ;-)
>
> Marty
>
>

[Blueskies]

> wrote in message oups.com...
> Yeah, they took spin training out. Teach you how to recover before
> agravating the stall into a spin.
>
<snip>
> I think spin training needs to be done, if nothing more than while on
> the ground explaining what you have to do to survive to talk about it.
> Later,
> Steve.T
> PP ASEL/Instrument
>

We used to teach everyone spin entry and recovery even though it was not in the PP requirements. The chief pilot
insisted on it and we all agreed it should be done...

[Marty]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:6wfxd.596545$D%.105833@attbi_s51...
> I'm sure it could be done, but I wouldn't want to try it in mine. One
> reason is that the spin recovery in a Tripacer is different than most
> planes. Somebody from the short wing piper club posted it once and it
> included ailerons with the spin and just some different procedures than
> typical.
>
> I'm thinking you're probably one of the first people to ever use the term
> "snappy" with regard to the TP tho. ;-)
>
> mike regish

OK, I'll rephrase. Faster (150hp ver.) and more agile than a Hawk but
noisier and less roomy.
When I got checked out for the insurance on mine, I had to find a CFI with
"make & model" time. I was required to get 5hrs on the checkout(it was my
first plane). After an hour, he asked for the controls and showed me lazy
8s,D-Rolls, falling leaf and others. Somewhere during this he says "I almost
forgot how much fun these things are!"
It may look funny to some people but the TP will always be one of my
favorites. Not by much, but it out ran my buddys hershey bar 180 Archer.

Do you have a site with pics of yours? I'd like to see it if you do.
I'll have to scan a pic and post mine on my site.

Marty

[tony roberts]

Here is some secret advice -
Go ask an instructor to show you.

Don't tell anyone :)

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE



In article . com>,
"houstondan" > wrote:

> ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
> that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
> the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
> asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
> things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
> characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
> test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
> you do those rolls???
>
> i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
> warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
> do?"
>
>
> dan

[mike regish]

Try here. It's not my site, but it's my plane.
http://www.stephenames.com/flying/pipers/pipers10.html#miker

mike regish

"Marty" > wrote in message
...
>
> Do you have a site with pics of yours? I'd like to see it if you do.
> I'll have to scan a pic and post mine on my site.
>
> Marty
>
>

[Michael]

>3. what's at laporte? there's a citabria at weiser/windsock and they
>do tailwheel/aerobatic ttraining in that.

What's at LaPorte is Harvey and Rihn. There is indeed a Citabri at
Windsock.

Would strongly recommend that you go to Houston Southwest (Texas
Taildraggers) rather than either of these. Joy is a retired aerobatic
competitor of some stature, and the airplanes are very well maintained.
You can learn more about Harvey&Rihn maintenance practices by checking
out the NTSB database.

Michael

[houstondan]

michael...thanks for the follow-up. yes, now that you mention it, i do
remember someone last spring mentioning that after i got my ppl, i
needed to get with "a woman" somewhere southish about tailwheel etc.

very good, i will look into that further. if i can impose (on someone)
some more; how do i find anything about "harvey & rihn" on the ntsb
site. also, isn't there a site where i can plug in a tail # and get
details on the plane, owner history etc???

dan

[Michael]

houstondan wrote:
> michael...thanks for the follow-up. yes, now that you mention it, i
do
> remember someone last spring mentioning that after i got my ppl, i
> needed to get with "a woman" somewhere southish about tailwheel etc.

That would be the one. Joy is very highly regarded. I've never flown
with her (or at her flight school), but I have seen the results when
people do. I've seen her take marginal pilots and make excellent
pilots in just a few hours.

> very good, i will look into that further. if i can impose (on
someone)
> some more; how do i find anything about "harvey & rihn" on the ntsb
> site.

Go to the search engine:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp

You can get a good start just by entering rihn (or harvey % rihn) into
the text box that says:
Enter your word string below
This won't get you everything, but it will be a start.

You can learn more about how to do searches simply by clicking on the
Examples link to the right of that text box.

You can learn more by searching for accidents at LaPorte, but you have
to be more careful there because H&R isn't the only FBO there.

In general, you can learn a lot about a flight school by looking
through the NTSB reports. While the NTSB will not report the name of
the pilot, it will report the name of the owner and operator if this is
not the pilot. However, even when maintenance is clearly the cause of
the accident, the NTSB will not report what maintenance facility did
the work unless it was under the control of the owner-operator (just a
bit of bias there, don't you think?) which makes it difficult to
evaluate the maintenance practices of a flight school/FBO unless they
are so bad that their own aircraft are crashing due to poor
maintenance.

> also, isn't there a site where i can plug in a tail # and get
> details on the plane, owner history etc???

http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/acmain.htm

And for pilots, the site is:
http://162.58.35.241/aadatabase/login.asp

Michael

[houstondan]

wow...thanks for the help. just exactly what i need. i'll be calling
them to set something up soon. houston-southwest is another one of
those airports that's set up east-west and pretty well guranteeing a
crosswind most days. perfect for training. really appreciate all the
help.
dan