How many in this club?

[Jon Kraus]

Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride" club.
It seems that the fail rate for the IFR checkride is more prevalent than
the Private. So swallow that false pride and speak up. I'll be first. I
flunked my IFR checkride by busting on holding pattern entry. Anyone
else? Cecil? Jeff? :-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Mooney Owner

[Wizard of Draws]

On 12/18/04 8:41 AM, in article ,
"Jon Kraus" > wrote:

> Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride" club.
> It seems that the fail rate for the IFR checkride is more prevalent than
> the Private. So swallow that false pride and speak up. I'll be first. I
> flunked my IFR checkride by busting on holding pattern entry. Anyone
> else? Cecil? Jeff? :-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student Mooney Owner
>

I'm #2.
I took my IFR checkride twice and honestly can't say I'm embarrassed about
it. It keeps me humble in the cockpit.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

The Wizard's 2004 Christmas newsletter
http://www.wizardofdraws.com/main/xmas04.html

[Peter R.]

Jon Kraus ) wrote:

> I flunked my IFR checkride by busting on holding pattern entry.

Could you provide more details of this? Was it that you flew outside
the protected airspace of the hold that caused your bust, or was it that
you used the incorrect entry but stayed within the confines of the hold?

I ask this because when I took my checkride a couple of years ago, both
the flight school and ultimately the examiner *de-emphasized* the need
for the correct type of entry. In other words, if a student didn't
execute the correct entry, s/he would still pass as long as s/he did get
established and did not fly outside of the protected airspace of the
hold while doing so.


--
Peter

[Kevin Dunlevy]

I flunked my checkride for private. I was flying a C-150 mostly in the
mornings to avoid the turbulence from thermals and gusts. I took my
checkride in the 150 on a hot, gusty day. The examiner, after flunking me,
said if I could do four good crosswind landings I would pass. So I did a
hundred practice landings, then did four bad crosswind landings for the
examiner and passed.

Now I can handle crosswinds better than many of the pilots I fly with,
because I took them as a personal challenge.

What I learned: Don't avoid flying in thermals, gusts and crosswinds unless
they are beyond reason, tighten up the lapbelt and get used to the bumps.

Kevin Dunlevy

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride" club.
> It seems that the fail rate for the IFR checkride is more prevalent than
> the Private. So swallow that false pride and speak up. I'll be first. I
> flunked my IFR checkride by busting on holding pattern entry. Anyone
> else? Cecil? Jeff? :-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student Mooney Owner
>

[Jon Kraus]

Peter,
Basically I got confused and didn't even get to do the hold because I
forgot where in the hell I was... By the time I got it figured out it
was too late. I really got down on myself and was humbled and
embarrassed. ut, at this point it is a distant memory and I don't think
too much about it other than it was a great learning experience.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Mooney Owner

Peter R. wrote:
> Jon Kraus ) wrote:
>
>
>>I flunked my IFR checkride by busting on holding pattern entry.
>
>
> Could you provide more details of this? Was it that you flew outside
> the protected airspace of the hold that caused your bust, or was it that
> you used the incorrect entry but stayed within the confines of the hold?
>
> I ask this because when I took my checkride a couple of years ago, both
> the flight school and ultimately the examiner *de-emphasized* the need
> for the correct type of entry. In other words, if a student didn't
> execute the correct entry, s/he would still pass as long as s/he did get
> established and did not fly outside of the protected airspace of the
> hold while doing so.
>
>

[Cecil Chapman]

Jon, you are NOT alone at all. In fact, from conversations with some other
pilots, I'm certain we could assemble a sizeable club of individuals who
didn't pass their Instrument on the first try.
So, if it's any relief to you; you are NOT alone in not having passed the
IFR checkride the first time. <GRIN>

I passed on the THIRD time. The first checkride I mussed it on my hold,
then immediately after (while still kicking myself for messing up the hold)
I messed up on the ILS approach (which was weird because I was looking
forward to 'showing it off' since I had done so well before). The second
time I passed everything I had missed before but then messed up when asked
to do a hold at an arbitrarily selected intersection -- not a regular 'hold'
intersection with a leg described by an airway. It then occurred to me,
short of drawing it on the enroute chart, that I had NO method of
'picturing' the arbitrary hold (that is a hold withOUT at least one victor
airway as a leg). Thankfully, when this happened I was doing it on the sim
and after the D.E. left for an hour or so, while I got a quick method of
determining the entry for any hold from an available CFII (without having a
drawing or an actual airway as a leg of the hold). The D.E. came back an
hour or so later (filling out the dreaded no-pass slip for the second time
((but different issue))) retested me and I did fine and got my pass slip, on
my THIRD try <argh>

So, I accumulated two of the dreaded no-pass slips and passed my Instrument
Checkride on the third. So, passing was more of a 'relief' at that point
than a joyous celebration (which came a week later <g>). The D.E. was
nothing but nice as possible and told me after I finally got the pass that
in his opinion the Instrument Checkride was easily among the hardest.


--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL-IA
Student - CP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
on holding pattern entry. Anyone
> else? Cecil? Jeff? :-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student Mooney Owner
>

[Jon Kraus]

Peter,
Basically I got confused and didn't even get to do the hold because I
forgot where in the hell I was... By the time I got it figured out it
was too late. Then on the retest I got nervous and did the same thing
again (another bust) I really got down on myself and was humbled and
embarrassed. The third time aas the charm. I wasn't nervous because I
knew I would pass this time and I was right. At this point it is a
distant memory and I don't think too much about it other than it was a
great learning experience.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Mooney Owner

Peter R. wrote:
> Jon Kraus ) wrote:
>
>
>>I flunked my IFR checkride by busting on holding pattern entry.
>
>
> Could you provide more details of this? Was it that you flew outside
> the protected airspace of the hold that caused your bust, or was it that
> you used the incorrect entry but stayed within the confines of the hold?
>
> I ask this because when I took my checkride a couple of years ago, both
> the flight school and ultimately the examiner *de-emphasized* the need
> for the correct type of entry. In other words, if a student didn't
> execute the correct entry, s/he would still pass as long as s/he did get
> established and did not fly outside of the protected airspace of the
> hold while doing so.
>
>

[Jon Kraus]

Cecil,
I knew you and I had a lot of things in common. :-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Mooney Owner

Cecil Chapman wrote:

> Jon, you are NOT alone at all. In fact, from conversations with some other
> pilots, I'm certain we could assemble a sizeable club of individuals who
> didn't pass their Instrument on the first try.
> So, if it's any relief to you; you are NOT alone in not having passed the
> IFR checkride the first time. <GRIN>
>
> I passed on the THIRD time. The first checkride I mussed it on my hold,
> then immediately after (while still kicking myself for messing up the hold)
> I messed up on the ILS approach (which was weird because I was looking
> forward to 'showing it off' since I had done so well before). The second
> time I passed everything I had missed before but then messed up when asked
> to do a hold at an arbitrarily selected intersection -- not a regular 'hold'
> intersection with a leg described by an airway. It then occurred to me,
> short of drawing it on the enroute chart, that I had NO method of
> 'picturing' the arbitrary hold (that is a hold withOUT at least one victor
> airway as a leg). Thankfully, when this happened I was doing it on the sim
> and after the D.E. left for an hour or so, while I got a quick method of
> determining the entry for any hold from an available CFII (without having a
> drawing or an actual airway as a leg of the hold). The D.E. came back an
> hour or so later (filling out the dreaded no-pass slip for the second time
> ((but different issue))) retested me and I did fine and got my pass slip, on
> my THIRD try <argh>
>
> So, I accumulated two of the dreaded no-pass slips and passed my Instrument
> Checkride on the third. So, passing was more of a 'relief' at that point
> than a joyous celebration (which came a week later <g>). The D.E. was
> nothing but nice as possible and told me after I finally got the pass that
> in his opinion the Instrument Checkride was easily among the hardest.
>
>

[Dan Luke]

"Jon Kraus" wrote:
> Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride"
> club. It seems that the fail rate for the IFR checkride is more
> prevalent than the Private. So swallow that false pride and speak up.
> I'll be first. I flunked my IFR checkride by busting on holding
> pattern entry. Anyone else? Cecil? Jeff? :-)

As did about half the pilots I know, I busted one element of my IFR
'ride and had to retest it.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Bob Gardner]

Count me in. No details.

Bob Gardner

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride" club.
> It seems that the fail rate for the IFR checkride is more prevalent than
> the Private. So swallow that false pride and speak up. I'll be first. I
> flunked my IFR checkride by busting on holding pattern entry. Anyone else?
> Cecil? Jeff? :-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student Mooney Owner
>

[Bob Chilcoat]

I passed my Private checkride on the first attempt, but 40 years earlier I
flunked my driving test TWICE. Now THAT was embarassing, considering it was
in PA where the test is on a closed course.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
America

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride" club.
> It seems that the fail rate for the IFR checkride is more prevalent than
> the Private. So swallow that false pride and speak up. I'll be first. I
> flunked my IFR checkride by busting on holding pattern entry. Anyone
> else? Cecil? Jeff? :-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student Mooney Owner
>

[C J Campbell]

Of course I have flunked a check ride. It seems a long time ago.

[Jon Kraus]

Wow!! There are really some distinguished names appearing in this club.
I guess it really isn't a big deal after all...

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Money Owner

C J Campbell wrote:

> Of course I have flunked a check ride. It seems a long time ago.
>
>

[Andrew Gideon]

Kevin Dunlevy wrote:

> I flunked my checkride for private.

So did I. In my case, it was the hoodwork that did me in. I find it a
little ironic therefore that I'd little difficulty with the instrument
ride. However, I had a bit of "help".

The first demonstration I had to do was hold at an IAF and then execute that
approach. I was flying an aircraft to which I wasn't used ("mine" had just
been rented away for several weeks), and I guess I just became nervous or
something. I became very frazzled during the hold entry.

I did manage to keep it on the correct side, and I maintained situational
awareness. I think I even commented on my poor execution and how I was
planning to fix it, but I don't recall for sure. However, I was *certain*
that I'd blown the ride, even though the DE said nothing. Just as I'd
settled down into a rhythm in the hold, the DE told me to begin the
approach.

From that point on, everything was good. My one other error was letting the
HI slip a bit (I didn't check the compass enough) during the NDB approach.
But I was still in PTS. Did I mention that "my" airplane didn't have an
NDB?

My ILS earned a compliment.

I'm sure that I'd have done much less well had I been worried about the
checkride. But my certainty at having failed let me relax enough that it
was "just another flight" for me.

When I go for my commercial ride, I'll try to be sure to make my screw-up as
early as possible.

- Andrew

[Andrew Sarangan]

I flunked my IR checkride. Like many others, I messed up the holding
pattern. After making the teardrop entry, instead of making a right turn
back to the holding fix, I turned left. Technically I was still on the
protected side, but it was still a bust. The only consolation was that the
examiner seemed to have more confidence in me than I had in myself. He said
he would have bet money on me passing the checkride.


Jon Kraus > wrote in news:MrWwd.6737$xW3.3525
@fe1.columbus.rr.com:

> Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride" club.
> It seems that the fail rate for the IFR checkride is more prevalent than
> the Private. So swallow that false pride and speak up. I'll be first. I
> flunked my IFR checkride by busting on holding pattern entry. Anyone
> else? Cecil? Jeff? :-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student Mooney Owner
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jon Kraus wrote:
>
> Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride" club.

I've only taken one. Passed that one.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Peter R.]

Jon Kraus ) wrote:

> Wow!! There are really some distinguished names appearing in this club.
> I guess it really isn't a big deal after all...

In the great scheme of things, not passing the checkride at the first
attempt should be no big deal. I'm more worried about flunking the
"real" ride someday, which motivates me to work harder at remaining
proficient.

--
Peter

[Peter R.]

Jon Kraus ) wrote:

> At this point it is a
> distant memory and I don't think too much about it other than it was a
> great learning experience.

Absolutely.

--
Peter

[[email protected]]

I didn't fail a check ride. But I do have an observation to make.

A bit of history: I had all kinds of problems getting my IFR training
done. So I paid some bucks and did it in a 141 school. The SR Trainer
did my check ride which was also training. He required me to get to one
point (VOR) full panel. The rest of the ride was partial panel
including the ILS back into the home field.

My point to this is, at that point in time, I could do partial panel
w/o breaking a sweat. Today, having had it happen in actual on two
different occassions (both times the DG went loopy in IMC at night) I
very nearly bent the plane. I can tell you that failing the real thing
generally doesn't have a good outcome.

Make sure that you can go up in the real stuff now and then (MVFR
works), and cover instruments. And if you can get to a good simulator,
have them fail instruments slowly (just like the real world).

Again, when it happens in the real stuff, if you don't get it right,
you may not get a second chance.

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

[[email protected]]

Well, I had to take the commercial test (CDL, not aircraft) 6 times
before I passed it (pre-trip), twice on the manuvers and twice on the
road test.

For those of you who want to try this (for class A), the trick to the
pre-trip is you are teaching them to do it, not doing it yourself. They
only want to know that you know what and where to check in what order
(for air brakes).

For someone with an instrument rating, having passed all my aviation
stuff on the first try, *this* was really embarrassing.
Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

[Peter Duniho]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Wow!! There are really some distinguished names appearing in this club. I
> guess it really isn't a big deal after all...

No, I agree it's not a big deal. I haven't flunked a checkride yet (out of
only four so far), but I would be foolish to think I or anyone else could
possibly be immune to doing so.

Even the best prepared applicant can potentially freeze up, have a momentary
lapse of reason, etc. Heaven knows I've done things during my regular
flying that would have earned me a pink slip during a checkride
(unintentionally, of course).

IMHO, flunking a checkride just means you need to schedule another one. In
nearly all cases, the applicant IS qualified (I think instructors
*generally* do a good job evaluating readiness of their students, regardless
of the kind of rating being sought), and flunking simply is a matter of bad
luck. Exceptions exist, no doubt, but I believe they are far and few
between.

Pete

[Ditch]

>
>Even the best prepared applicant can potentially freeze up, have a momentary
>lapse of reason, etc.

I agree with that.
I failed my initial CFI checkride 11 years ago over special VFR near the end of
a 5 hour oral. I just couldn't explain it right...for no good reason either.
Never even got to the airplane.
Went back a couple weeks later and breezed thru it, flew and passed.

As for IR stuff...I get to take a checkride every 6 months either with a
company check-airman, the FAA or both.



-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

[Peter R.]

Ditch ) wrote:

> I failed my initial CFI checkride 11 years ago over special VFR near the end of
> a 5 hour oral. I just couldn't explain it right...for no good reason either.
> Never even got to the airplane.

Your DE never let you fly after missing the correct explanation for
SVFR?

After a 5 hour oral, it seems he was looking for any excuse to go
home. :)

--
Peter

[Ditch]

>Your DE never let you fly after missing the correct explanation for
>SVFR?
>After a 5 hour oral, it seems he was looking for any excuse to go
>home. :)
>

It was actually my choice. I could have flown but I wasn't in the best of moods
after blowing a simple explanation.




-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

[Wizard of Draws]

On 12/18/04 12:14 PM, in article , "Bob
Gardner" > wrote:

> Count me in. No details.
>
> Bob Gardner
>

Don't tell me. You fouled up your radio calls...
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

The Wizard's 2004 Christmas newsletter
http://www.wizardofdraws.com/main/xmas04.html

[Judah]

I failed my Private the first time. I couldn't get the plane started using
all of the "tips and tricks" that various instructors and mechanics at the
FBO where I rented from suggested.

The DE said had I used the checklist, he would have called it a mechanical
failure and we would have had a continuance in another plane. But because I
strayed from the checklist, he had to fail me.

Passed the IFR checkride the first time.



Jon Kraus > wrote in news:MrWwd.6737$xW3.3525
@fe1.columbus.rr.com:

> Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride" club.
> It seems that the fail rate for the IFR checkride is more prevalent than
> the Private. So swallow that false pride and speak up. I'll be first. I
> flunked my IFR checkride by busting on holding pattern entry. Anyone
> else? Cecil? Jeff? :-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student Mooney Owner
>

[tscottme]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride" club.
> It seems that the fail rate for the IFR checkride is more prevalent than
> the Private. So swallow that false pride and speak up. I'll be first. I
> flunked my IFR checkride by busting on holding pattern entry. Anyone
> else? Cecil? Jeff? :-)
>
> Jon Kraus

Well a friend of mine, did I say friend, should have flunked his IFR ride.
My friend had excellent test prep, in fact the last training flight was
exactly like the checkride. It seems my friend forgot to take his medical
or private license with him on the ride. Fortunately, when the DE asked for
my friend's license or medical so he could get started typing up the
temporary certificate my friend remembered he needed to sprint to the
restroom, which was right beside his locker where his wallet was at. It all
worked out OK. What makes the story an even bigger bonehead example was
that my friend worked as a dispatcher for the flight school and had been
keeping careful notes on what the DEs asked as stumpers and what were some
of the really dumb ways to bust a ride, and forgetting your license/medical
was probably the dumbest way to bust. The only consolation of busting like
this was the re-test was nothing more than walking to the aircraft and maybe
starting the engine before presenting the documents.

Did I mention is was my friend? ;-)

--

Scott

[Mike Rapoport]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride" club.
> It seems that the fail rate for the IFR checkride is more prevalent than
> the Private. So swallow that false pride and speak up. I'll be first. I
> flunked my IFR checkride by busting on holding pattern entry. Anyone else?
> Cecil? Jeff? :-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student Mooney Owner
>

The examiner shouldn't have busted you if you stayed inside the protected
airspace regardless of the type entry.

Mike
MU-2

[[email protected]]

Jon Kraus wrote :
>Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride"
club.

I'm in that club. I breezed through all of the manuvers on the PPL
ride, went back to the airport and did all of the requisite landings.
On the last time around, the DE asked for a short/soft field landing
and added that he'd be writing up my temporary certificate once it was
completed. Well, that was enough to rattle me. I made two attempts
and both resulted in very ugly landings, with the DE having to apply
power to arrest the sink rate. I'd managed to psyche myself out.

Afterwards, my instructor and I went out and I did 10 of these
landings, all perfect. The DE was still hanging around and both he and
my instructor found this very amusing. The following week I took the
DE up for two more landings and that was the end of it.
John Galban====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[gatt]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message

> Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride" club.
> It seems that the fail rate for the IFR checkride is more prevalent than
> the Private.

I failed my Private because I used a private field as a waypoint in my
cross-country plan. I can claim in my defense that I was my instructor's
first student, and when we were prepping for the checkride and he had me do,
by coincidence, nearly the same cross-country plan, I used the field and he
said it was good.

Passed my IFR on the first try, in IMC, but I can't imagine how. I haven't
been that stressed out since Marine Corps OCS.

-c

[gatt]

"Wizard of Draws" > wrote in message

> I'm #2.
> I took my IFR checkride twice and honestly can't say I'm embarrassed about
> it. It keeps me humble in the cockpit.

My DE STARTED the exam by lecturing to me about how failure wasn't something
to be embarrassed about, how the point wasn't to pass your checkride on the
first try, and how the instructor shares the responsibility for failure,
etc.

The FBO atmosphere was something out of a sitcom. I've never seen so many
instructors so visibly nervous. If I'd have opened the classroom door I'd
have probably caught them all evesdropping.

I was terrified, too. The previous week I heard the DE chewing some kid's
ass about flap usage and a bunch of other things after a Private exam.
Turns out, the kid passed.

-c

[Bob Moore]

"gatt" > wrote

> I failed my Private because I used a private field as a
> waypoint in my cross-country plan.

WHATTT.... No way! You can use a tree as a waypoint as
long as it can be identified from the airplane in flight.
Maybe you failed because you could not identify the "grass"
field as a waypoint, not because it was a "private" field.

Bob Moore

[Rob]

Jon Kraus wrote:
> Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride"
club.

Count me in too. I flunked my private checkride in 2002 on the first
try.

I and my instructor had no doubt that I was ready even with only about
40.5 total hours. The oral portion went splendidly, and I was having a
mostly fun and easy time with the flight portion also when I found
myself suddenly unable to make a 45-degree steep turn (in a Cessna 152)
without gaining 400 to 500 feet of altitude. I later figured that this
equates to about a 5000 F. P. M. climb. Those of you familiar with the
C152 know that a 5000 F. P. M. climb is not typically in the repertoir,
particularly with 45 degrees of bank. Did I mention that I took the
checkride in late June in Phoenix? I now know that I was in a big-time
thermal and mother nature was adding a bunch of external energy to my
carefully planned system. The amount of power reduction and nose-down
pitch that would have been required to stay within the P. T. S. would
have been very counter-intuituve in a steep turn and unlike anything I
had seen in a steep turn up to that point. The D. E. didn't really say
anything, we just went about completing the rest of the maneuvers. I
actually meant to come back to the steep turn later and make another
attempt, and I suspect the D. E. would have allowed me to do that, but
by the time we were ready to head back toward the airport and make some
landings my mind was on about a million other things and I forgot.

The D. E. didn't give me any indication as to my passing or failing as
we tied down the airplane but by then I had remembered that I never
sucessfully completed that steep turn. In fact, the D. E. called me a
prodigy during the de-briefing with my C. F. I. The exam was on a
Wednesday, and early on we had discussed the fact that the examiner
would be available on Friday if we had needed a continuance or a
re-test. In the de-brief, I made the mistake of asking the leading
question "So, do you want to see me on Friday?" instead of "So, did I
pass?" and I got the answer I was dreading. I logged about .6 hours
with my instructor on Thursday trying a few steep turns and about .6
with the examiner on Friday doing a single normal take-off, a steep
turn to the left, a steep turn to the right, and a normal landing, this
time at about 7:30 a.m. instead of 1 p.m. Pass.

In hindsight, I know the examiner knew I was safe enough to be worthy
of a licence to learn after the first test. I think she was looking
for a demonstration of confidence as well as a demonstration of
competence and that if I had phrased my simple question differently the
outcome might have been different. The fact that she also knew I was a
weekend/hobby type pilot with no real career aspirations to be damaged
by a failed checkride might have also played a role. The additional
$150 might also have. I beat myself up pretty good for those two days
between tests, but the rewards of the 150 hours of flying (all in
C152/C150's) in the two years since have been so great that they far
outweigh any grief caused by that minor hiccup.

-R

[Rob]

Jon Kraus wrote:
> Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride"
club.

Count me in too. I flunked my private checkride in 2002 on the first
try.

I and my instructor had no doubt that I was ready even with only about
40.5 total hours. The oral portion went splendidly, and I was having a
mostly fun and easy time with the flight portion also when I found
myself suddenly unable to make a 45-degree steep turn (in a Cessna 152)
without gaining 400 to 500 feet of altitude. I later figured that this
equates to about a 5000 F. P. M. climb. Those of you familiar with the
C152 know that a 5000 F. P. M. climb is not typically in the repertoir,
particularly with 45 degrees of bank. Did I mention that I took the
checkride in late June in Phoenix? I now know that I was in a big-time
thermal and mother nature was adding a bunch of external energy to my
carefully planned system. The amount of power reduction and nose-down
pitch that would have been required to stay within the P. T. S. would
have been very counter-intuituve in a steep turn and unlike anything I
had seen in a steep turn up to that point. The D. E. didn't really say
anything, we just went about completing the rest of the maneuvers. I
actually meant to come back to the steep turn later and make another
attempt, and I suspect the D. E. would have allowed me to do that, but
by the time we were ready to head back toward the airport and make some
landings my mind was on about a million other things and I forgot.

The D. E. didn't give me any indication as to my passing or failing as
we tied down the airplane but by then I had remembered that I never
sucessfully completed that steep turn. In fact, the D. E. called me a
prodigy during the de-briefing with my C. F. I. The exam was on a
Wednesday, and early on we had discussed the fact that the examiner
would be available on Friday if we had needed a continuance or a
re-test. In the de-brief, I made the mistake of asking the leading
question "So, do you want to see me on Friday?" instead of "So, did I
pass?" and I got the answer I was dreading. I logged about .6 hours
with my instructor on Thursday trying a few steep turns and about .6
with the examiner on Friday doing a single normal take-off, a steep
turn to the left, a steep turn to the right, and a normal landing, this
time at about 7:30 a.m. instead of 1 p.m. Pass.

In hindsight, I know the examiner knew I was safe enough to be worthy
of a licence to learn after the first test. I think she was looking
for a demonstration of confidence as well as a demonstration of
competence and that if I had phrased my simple question differently the
outcome might have been different. The fact that she also knew I was a
weekend/hobby type pilot with no real career aspirations to be damaged
by a failed checkride might have also played a role. The additional
$150 might also have. I beat myself up pretty good for those two days
between tests, but the rewards of the 150 hours of flying (all in
C152/C150's) in the two years since have been so great that they far
outweigh any grief caused by that minor hiccup.

-R

[[email protected]]

gatt wrote :
>I failed my Private because I used a private field as a waypoint in my
>cross-country plan.

Eh? There is no requirement for a waypoint, other than it had
better be something you can identify enroute. There has to be more to
this story.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Blueskies]

"Rob" > wrote in message oups.com...
>
> Jon Kraus wrote:
>> Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride"
> club.
>
> Count me in too. I flunked my private checkride in 2002 on the first
> try.
>


Man, I've been trying and trying, but still can't seem to bust a checkride!

;-)

[Corky Scott]

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 20:16:43 GMT, Bob Moore >
wrote:

>"gatt" > wrote
>
>> I failed my Private because I used a private field as a
>> waypoint in my cross-country plan.
>
>WHATTT.... No way! You can use a tree as a waypoint as
>long as it can be identified from the airplane in flight.
>Maybe you failed because you could not identify the "grass"
>field as a waypoint, not because it was a "private" field.
>
>Bob Moore

My feelings exactly. I used private fields for my waypoints on
several cross countries WITH the CFI in the right seat. The only
point he made is that sometimes the private fields are hard to spot.

Corky Scott

[gatt]

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message

> > I failed my Private because I used a private field as a
> > waypoint in my cross-country plan.
>
> WHATTT.... No way! You can use a tree as a waypoint as
> long as it can be identified from the airplane in flight.
> Maybe you failed because you could not identify the "grass"
> field as a waypoint, not because it was a "private" field.

Specifically, the DE knew the owner of the private field. There was an
airstrip that was UNMARKED across a little creek from a field. My
instructor and I incorrectly assumed that the paved strip was the private
airfield on the section. It turns out otherwise; the actual airstrip was
simply a field; when the farmer wanted to fly, he put up his windsock and
mowed himself a runway in the appropriate direction. Because I
misidentified the airport by thinking the strip across the street was
[whatever the private field was called], he busted me.

-c

[gatt]

> wrote in message

> Eh? There is no requirement for a waypoint, other than it had
> better be something you can identify enroute. There has to be more to
> this story.

Just related the whole details. In case you missed it, though; on the
abbreviated x-ctry I pointed out the window to an airstrip and said "there's
my waypoint." Turns out the airstrip indicated on the chart was across the
road. The DE knew the farmer, and knew that he just mowed a runway if he
wanted to fly. I don't know why the airstrip across the street wasn't
marked, but I was the first person to use it as a waypoint with that
particular examiner.

My CFI was less-than-pleased as well. The DE's point was, don't use
private airfields as waypoints.

-c

[Peter Duniho]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
> [...] Because I
> misidentified the airport by thinking the strip across the street was
> [whatever the private field was called], he busted me.

Well, to be fair, that's different than you first described it. You failed
your checkride because you misidentified a waypoint. Not "because [you]
used a private field as a waypoint".

You just as easily could have misidentified a public airport, or you could
have passed your checkride had you correctly identified the private airport.
The choice of a waypoint you had difficulty identifying might have led to
the bust, but the mere choice of a private field didn't directly lead to
failing the checkride.

It's a good lesson though: waypoints should be easily identifiable. Two
similar airports right next to each other would not qualify. For sure, if
you ARE going to use an airport as a waypoint, you need to learn enough
about the airport to know whether you are looking at it or not when you
arrive. Including knowing whether it's paved or not. :)

Sounds like a fair bust to me. I'll bet you learned your lesson from that
though, and I'll bet there are some pilots who passed their checkride on the
first try who still need to learn that lesson.

Pete

[Jose]

> The DE's point was, don't use
> private airfields as waypoints.

That's not what I'd take away from it. I'd take away "don't use
waypoints you can't identify". You in fact did not correctly identify
the waypoint. I bet you'd've passed had you pointed to the grassy
area rather than the paved strip.

Jose
(r.a.student retained, but I don't read that group; I replied from
r.a.piloting)
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[[email protected]]

I'll have a go. I've flunked two; my multi/commercial and my initial
CFI. They are both kind of funny, and both made me a better pilot, even
tho they were both 'borderline' bogus.

My Multi-Comm was weird. I went to an excellent 'flat-rate' program,
had a great MEI and did fine in the training. I went up with the
crusty, old, and brusque DE. Everything went OK (not great...I
certainly could have done better, but within the specs of the PTS),
until the engine-out localizer approach. I flew the approach reasonably
well (again not great), but when we got down, he said he'd have to fail
me because I didn't drop my gear at the outer marker. Now, I've since
added quite a bit of multi time, and talked to a few MEIs and
experienced multi pilots. All have said they wouldn't drop the gear in
a light twin if they had an engine out until they had the airport in
sight; certainly not at the outer marker. It wasn't in the checklist.
What *was* in the checklist was was he *should* have failed me for...I
forgot to turn on the fuel boost pumps (but he didn't even notice, or
say anything about it). So I didn't complain...just went back for
another lesson, did some time in the mockup and passed the ride the
next day. I later found out that this DE seems to have an interesting
pattern. He does most of the checkrides for this company; when I looked
at their checkride log sheet, I noticed that at the beginning of the
month (when money isn't too tight?) he had a first time pass rate of
about 85%, and a second time pass rate of an additional 10%. In the
last week of the month (when I took my ride, and when presumably money
is tight) he seemed to have a first time pass rate of about 45% and a
second time pass rate of about 35% additionally (totalling 80%), Did I
mention he charged 1/2 of his full checkride fee for a 10 minute retest
of the failed component? I'm sure it was all a coincidence.....

I took my initial CFI ride with DE who is reputed to be *very* tough.
After I passed the retest, he told me that he 'thought' the failure
rate for initial CFI should be over 50%...as it was in the 1960s, when
he said it was up near 90%; he told me he failed his initial CFI ride
(as did the above guy). This DE is very experienced, and had a *great*
knowledge of flying...even thought it was pretty grueling, I really got
a lot out of the 8 hour oral, even though it got kind of heated when we
were diuscussing the general relationship between
power/altitude/pitch/airspeed. I quoted Langeweishe and told him I
believe the throttle was the primary altitude control in normal cruise,
and that I liked the acronym "PAYS" Power-altitute Yoke-speed. He said
that was totally wrong and displayed a total lack of understanding of
how an airplane flys. I told him that that that was based on direct
quotes from 'Aerodynamics for Naval Aviatiors', which is a hugely
respected aerodynamics book. As I said, it got kind of heated...at one
point I offered to go outside into my 172RG with him right now...we'd
go out and establish level flight and trim it out...I'd add in power.
If power doesn't control altitude (yes, of course I *do* know it's a
balance with the relationship between lift and airspeed), then the
plane shouldn't climb...it should just speed up. And then when I
chopped the power, the plane shouldn't descend...it should just slow
down. I told him if we went and did that and the plane didn't descend
and climb, then I'd fail myself and just go home. This was after it
started getting heated. I know I probably could have passed by just
agreeing with what he said, but as an instcutor, if I'm *really* wrong,
I want to know about it...and if I'm not wrong, I'm not going to
pretend I am. We ended up basically leaving it with 'well, they are
clearly interrelated controls and concepts'...which didn't resolve
anything, but let us move on :)

*Then* I failed. The DE failed me on my lesson plans. LOL. I have never
met *any* CFI who was failed on his lesson plans. Specifically, he
failed me because I was presenting a lesson on '8's on Pylons' to a
putative commercial student. One of the concepts I explained was how to
estimate initial pivotal altitude, using the FAA's method published in
8083-3. He got visably angry and said that was BS. That nobody needed
to know how to calculate pivotal altitude...that you couldn't calculate
'true' pivotal altitude anyway, as that was a function of groundspeed,
which is of course a function of the specific winds wherever you are. I
agreed, but said that you use the initial pivotal altitude to calculate
your initial entry, then modify your altutide visually once in the
maneuver. At that point he told me that I had failed. I told him that
my Commercial DE asked me to calculate pivotal altitude. He said that
DE was wrong. So I asked him how he'd judge a commercial applicant
doing a pylon 8. He said the applicant *should* start out at a
reasonable altitude, and then judge pivotal altitude from the maneuver
itself....you find 'true' pivotal altitude by being able to perform the
maneuver properly. So I asked him what was reasonable. Would he be OK
with a student spiriling down from 12,000 feet in a 172RG to find the
proper altitude? He said I was just being silly. Anyway, I was pretty
furious at all this BS, so I told him I was going, and he told me to
call and reschedule. I told him that I was going to call somebody...the
FSDO and ask to have a checkride from a FSDO representative..and that
this was BS.

So I flew home, and calmed down. I talked with my training CFI and a
couple other CFIs who told me that yeah, it was BS...but I really
needed to go back to this guy and get it done. *Then* I could file a
complaint with the FSDO, and they'd support me.

So I swallowed my pride, and called the guy...rescheduled (no extra
charge). When I went back up, it was a *totally* different guy. He was
super-nice. He explained to me why he failed me...that he thought I'd
be a good instructor, but that I needed to get away from so much 'book'
stuff. I presented a fairly trivial lesson on turns-about-a-point for a
private student (which he didn't even seem to care about much...he
didn't comment at all, except to say 'good job' at the end.)

Then we went flying, and here is where he could have failed me. My
flying that day was lousy. I don't know if it was because I was upset,
but at least one of my maneuvers was not up to commercial standards,
and none were up to my personal standards. He showed me how to do a few
things differently (he was one *hell* of a pilot...the guy had the best
touch with an airplane I've ever seen). When we got down, he told me I
passed. I told him I could fly better than I did, and he said that the
CFI isn't about flying. He knows I can fly...otherwise I wouldn't have
gotten that far. He wasn't worried about my flying at all...he wanted
to see my teaching.

Very odd...he told me he thought I'd be a fine instructor, and that he
failed his initial CFI, as had almost all the other CFIs he knew and to
use this experience with my students, etc...and wrote me out my
temporary ticket. I ended up leaving with a pretty positive feeling,
and didn't even really consider making a complaint (altho my training
CFI wanted to...he was pretty angry). To this day I don't know what
exactly happened...was that all pre-planned as his 'CFI Initiation'?
Did I get him on a *really* bad day, and he turned into everyone's
favourite uncle when he thought I really would try to burn him with the
FAA (doubtful...I later found out he has some serious juice at both the
FSDO and the national level, with the FAA)? DId he really believe all
the stuff he told me? Did he just feel guilty about overreacting? Who
knows....

But when one of my students tanks a checkride someday, I'll certainly
be able to say "Yeah...I know how that feels...let me tell you a
story..."

Cheers,

Cap


Jon Kraus wrote:
> Just curious as to how many of us are in the "Flunked a Checkride"
club.
> It seems that the fail rate for the IFR checkride is more prevalent
than
> the Private. So swallow that false pride and speak up. I'll be first.
I
> flunked my IFR checkride by busting on holding pattern entry. Anyone
> else? Cecil? Jeff? :-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student Mooney Owner

[Roger]

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 08:09:22 -0500, Corky Scott
> wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 20:16:43 GMT, Bob Moore >
>wrote:
>
>>"gatt" > wrote
>>
>>> I failed my Private because I used a private field as a
>>> waypoint in my cross-country plan.
>>
>>WHATTT.... No way! You can use a tree as a waypoint as
>>long as it can be identified from the airplane in flight.
>>Maybe you failed because you could not identify the "grass"
>>field as a waypoint, not because it was a "private" field.
>>
>>Bob Moore
>
>My feelings exactly. I used private fields for my waypoints on
>several cross countries WITH the CFI in the right seat. The only
>point he made is that sometimes the private fields are hard to spot.

Hard to spot?
I took my check ride the morning after we had a couple inches of snow.
Almost all of my check points were invisible. I never did find most
of them, but by pointing to the map and finding other references I was
able to show I was where I thought I was.

The only reason I could find the Pinconing airstrip was two airplanes
parked outside and it took a relatively low pass to identify those.
The examiner was happy.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Corky Scott

[Bob Moore]

>>>"gatt" > wrote
>>>
>>>> I failed my Private because I used a private field as a
>>>> waypoint in my cross-country plan.

"Private" does not necessarily mean "Grass". Just north of
my location in Tarpon Springs, FL, there were two private
airports, both with 3-4,000' of paved runway. Hidden Lake
and TampaBay Exec which has just recently closed.

Bob Moore

[Roger]

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 19:55:46 GMT, Bob Moore >
wrote:

>>>>"gatt" > wrote
>>>>
>>>>> I failed my Private because I used a private field as a
>>>>> waypoint in my cross-country plan.
>
>"Private" does not necessarily mean "Grass". Just north of
>my location in Tarpon Springs, FL, there were two private
>airports, both with 3-4,000' of paved runway. Hidden Lake
>and TampaBay Exec which has just recently closed.

What'd they do with all the planes out at the Exec? That place was
really handy when the weather turned to crap when we were heading home
between Christmas and New years a few years ago.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Bob Moore

[Bob Moore]

Roger > wrote

> What'd they do with all the planes out at the Exec?

Many went over to Zephyrhills and a few (me) to Pilot
Country. I thought that a lot would wind-up at Tampa
North, but they don't seem to have the necessary facilities.
The State appropriated funds to provide facilities at the
surrounding airports to accommodate the relocation.
I don't hold much hope for Tampa North and Clearwater Exec
due to residential development surrounding them.

Bob Moore

[C J Campbell]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Wow!! There are really some distinguished names appearing in this club.
> I guess it really isn't a big deal after all...

Well, if there is anything I have learned about check rides: don't try to
take three check rides in as many days while running a temperature of 103.
Unfortunately, when you are that sick your judgment is the first thing that
goes out the window. Given some scheduling pressure and peer pressure to get
it done and you can do all kinds of crazy things.

[Andrew Gideon]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "gatt" > wrote in message
> ...
>> [...] Because I
>> misidentified the airport by thinking the strip across the street was
>> [whatever the private field was called], he busted me.
>
> Well, to be fair, that's different than you first described it. You
> failed
> your checkride because you misidentified a waypoint. Not "because [you]
> used a private field as a waypoint".

Hmm. I don't see it quite this way. He called the waypoint the wrong
thing, but that's not a lot different than the "onion fields" north of CDW
that might in fact be tomatoe, grapes, or who knows what else.

He should have called it "road across street from farm with transient
runway", I suppose, but if he did spot the road, does it matter what it was
called?

- Andrew

[Peter Duniho]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
gonline.com...
> Hmm. I don't see it quite this way. He called the waypoint the wrong
> thing, but that's not a lot different than the "onion fields" north of CDW
> that might in fact be tomatoe, grapes, or who knows what else.

Huh? No...seems you misunderstood what he said. He picked airport A for
his waypoint, and then identified airport B as airport A.

It's kind of like if I'd picked Boeing Field in Seattle as my waypoint, and
then pointed out SeaTac (the Class B airport a few miles away), claiming it
was Boeing Field.

Had he selected a private airport, and then upon flying over it, correctly
identified the waypoint, but called it a public airport, that would be akin
to what you describe with respect to "onion fields" versus "tomatoes,
grapes, or who knows what else".

> He should have called it "road across street from farm with transient
> runway", I suppose, but if he did spot the road, does it matter what it
> was
> called?

He wasn't using the "road" as his checkpoint (which was actually another
airport, not a road). He was using an airport that he did not actually
find, even though he claimed to have to the examiner.

It's an unfortunate way to bust a checkride, as in this particular case it
would have had no significant effect on the outcome of the flight. But as a
technicality, it's perfectly valid, and had the other airport not been
there, a pilot trying to use the private airport as a waypoint may have
flown right past it without EVER having seen it. And it's not like he
picked the private airport knowing that there was a paved airport for him to
misidentify as the private airport.

As I said before, it's a very good example of why one needs to learn at
least some basic things about an airport to be used as a waypoint. In this
case, it's debatable whether the private airport is really all that suitable
as a waypoint anyway (since it sounds like it's hard to distinguish from all
the other rural property in the area), but for sure, a person using that or
any other airport as a waypoint needs to know whether the airport they are
looking for is paved or not.

Since from the air, many airports very similar to many others, it would be
much better to know not only whether the airport is paved, but also the
runway direction, location of any windsocks, location relative to any major
roads in the area, among the many distinguishing characteristics an airport
might have. Even knowing just "paved" versus "unpaved" might not be enough,
but for sure one ought to know THAT.

Pete

[gatt]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message

> Well, to be fair, that's different than you first described it. You
failed
> your checkride because you misidentified a waypoint. Not "because [you]
> used a private field as a waypoint".

Sort of. Specifically, he told me not to use a private field as a waypoint.
Whether it or the other is what he based the failure on, I don't really
know. Went I went back for the retest, I used a VOR intersection and that
settled it. In fact, we didn't even go all the way to the waypoint.

> Sounds like a fair bust to me.

I agree. My instructor didn't. That's when I discovered I was his first
student since he graduated from flight school, so I think it hurt his pride
a little, and embarrassed him because he approved of a checkpoint that the
examiner didn't.

-c

[gatt]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message

> Huh? No...seems you misunderstood what he said. He picked airport A for
> his waypoint, and then identified airport B as airport A.
>
> It's kind of like if I'd picked Boeing Field in Seattle as my waypoint,
and
> then pointed out SeaTac (the Class B airport a few miles away), claiming
it
> was Boeing Field.

Well, it's more like, Boeing Field is a little asphalt strip across the
rural road from SeaTac, which is actually a square field in which the farmer
just mows a runway in whichever direction the windsock dictates on the rare
occasion he flies out. :>

The only thing that really bugged me is, they were so close to home I could
pretty much see both from my house. His lesson was important; another
nearby example he pointed out was a "private airstrip" that was merely a
dirt roadway in the center of a Christmas tree farm. On the map it's an
airfield. From the air, it's a farm. You'd NEVER find it if you didn't
know in advance what to look for.

> As I said before, it's a very good example of why one needs to learn at
> least some basic things about an airport to be used as a waypoint.

I agree with you. I was disappointed with busting the checkride and having
to pay the extra cash (as a college student.) He could have simply said
"Guess what...you hit the geographic mark but that isn't the waypoint and
you can be failed for that." I'd have gotten the point. But, in any case,
I didn't contest it and haven't misidentified a waypoint since. :>

-c

[gatt]

"Jose" > wrote in message news:dF3yd.2108

> > The DE's point was, don't use private airfields as waypoints.
>
> That's not what I'd take away from it. I'd take away "don't use
> waypoints you can't identify". You in fact did not correctly identify
> the waypoint. I bet you'd've passed had you pointed to the grassy
> area rather than the paved strip.

Nope, 'cause the grass strip wasn't a strip; it was a square field that
hadn't been mowed in who knows how long (from 3,000 ft.) Had it not been
for the ashpalt strip, I'd not have found it AT ALL. (which was his point,
although in retrospect it may not have been cause of failure, as people are
pointing out.)

What he said, literally, is that you don't know what somebody's going to
call a "private airstrip" and unless you've actually been there and seen it
recently, you don't know whether it's a dirt road, somebody's back acreage
or an ultralight strip.

=c

[Andrew Gideon]

gatt wrote:

> Nope, 'cause the grass strip wasn't a strip; it was a square field that
> hadn't been mowed in who knows how long (from 3,000 ft.) Had it not been
> for the ashpalt strip, I'd not have found it AT ALL.

Okay, I think I did misunderstand the situation. Never mind what the
checkpoint was, you missed it (and mistook something else for it). Yes,
that's a Nasty.

I just did the 100 mile non-solo commercial XC this week, and it was back to
pilotage and ded reckoning (sp?) for me. Every checkpoint consisted of
multiple features. This is something I learned during my PPL. It makes
both mistaken identification and missed checkpoints less likely.

It's important to note that even charted features are not always visible
from the angle at which you approach them (or the season/daylight at the
time of your flight). It is also very useful to make note of additional
features along the way (if there are such features {8^). This way, you
always know where you are. It's not a matter of "finding your location"
every N minutes.

- Andrew