Logging Total Time?

[zatatime]

Does anyone know what the rules are around logging total time?

My specific example is a person who flew literally hundreds of hours
before getting a license (no solo privs either). He performed all the
duties of the flight including take-off, cross country navigation,
landing, communications, maneuvers, etc... He was always accompanied
by someone who was acting as pilot in command, but whom never touched
the stick. Is it legal for him to log total time for these flights?
Is there a way to log total time without logging either PIC, SIC, or
Dual Received/Given?

Thanks for any responses to this.

z

[BTIZ]

You cannot log PIC unless you are rated, receiving dual, or sole manipulator
(solo or with a safety pilot).. and a whole bunch of other reasons.. Total
time can be logged for the "acting PIC", again need to be rated, the safety
pilot for his buddy under the IFR hood, etc.

actually.. this guy in your example can log anything he wants.. it's his log
book, the question is.. will the huge total time hours before he actually
logs any dual received or solo time count towards anything as far as
additional ratings...??? NO

but if he wants to log total time in the air... even as a pax.. that's his
log book..

BT

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
> Does anyone know what the rules are around logging total time?
>
> My specific example is a person who flew literally hundreds of hours
> before getting a license (no solo privs either). He performed all the
> duties of the flight including take-off, cross country navigation,
> landing, communications, maneuvers, etc... He was always accompanied
> by someone who was acting as pilot in command, but whom never touched
> the stick. Is it legal for him to log total time for these flights?
> Is there a way to log total time without logging either PIC, SIC, or
> Dual Received/Given?
>
> Thanks for any responses to this.
>
> z

[Greg Esres]

<<rules are around logging total time>>

The FAA has not defined "Total Time", so there are no rules about it.

[Hilton]

BTIZ wrote:
> You cannot log PIC unless you are rated, receiving dual, or sole
manipulator
> (solo or with a safety pilot).. and a whole bunch of other reasons.. Total
> time can be logged for the "acting PIC", again need to be rated, the
safety
> pilot for his buddy under the IFR hood, etc.

"Receiving dual" has nothing to do with logging PIC. If you believe it
does, please quote the FAR.

Hilton

[Frank Ch. Eigler]

Greg Esres wrote:

> <<rules are around logging total time>>
>
> The FAA has not defined "Total Time", so there are no rules about it.

.... except for the rules of arithmetic, a total being the sum of the
various categorized flight times.

As far as logging time in the OP's case, dual would come closest, but
then the person giving instruction and the circumstances would have to
qualify.

- FChE

[Helen Woods]

There are no regs for logging total time, only logging PIC.

Helen

[Helen Woods]

Ther are no rules for logging Total time, only PIC and SIC.

Helen

[Gary Drescher]

"Greg Esres" > wrote in message
...
> <<rules are around logging total time>>
>
> The FAA has not defined "Total Time", so there are no rules about it.

True, but 61.1b12 does define "pilot time" as the total of various types of
time. And the aeronautical experience sections of part 61 refer to "total
time as a pilot", which presumably is synonymous with "pilot time".

--Gary

[houstondan]

i suppose the real issue would be how you intend to use that tabulation
of "total hours".

near as i can tell, it wouldn't qualify for anything as far as ratings
or insurance and trying to use it as such could be really bad.
dan

[Nathan Young]

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 03:11:03 GMT, zatatime > wrote:

>Does anyone know what the rules are around logging total time?
>
>My specific example is a person who flew literally hundreds of hours
>before getting a license (no solo privs either). He performed all the
>duties of the flight including take-off, cross country navigation,
>landing, communications, maneuvers, etc... He was always accompanied
>by someone who was acting as pilot in command, but whom never touched
>the stick. Is it legal for him to log total time for these flights?
>Is there a way to log total time without logging either PIC, SIC, or
>Dual Received/Given?

Unless the PIC was a CFI and these are logged as training flights -
they cannot be logged.

-Nathan

[Marty]

"Frank Ch. Eigler" > wrote in message
...
>
> ... except for the rules of arithmetic, a total being the sum of the
> various categorized flight times.
>
> As far as logging time in the OP's case, dual would come closest, but
> then the person giving instruction and the circumstances would have to
> qualify.
>
> - FChE

Agreed,

I have logged every flight "experience" but unless I qualified as PIC(which
includes safety pilot of simulated instrument), or the other pilot was a
CFI. The "time" was not loggable to "Total Time".
Example: First ride in a taildragger, me a student, pilot a PPL, I was
allowed to manipulate controls in cruise. Log
entry-Date,Place,Aircraft,First ride in taildragger,0-Landings,0-Time

This is what I was instructed and how I understand it.

Marty

[Greg Esres]

<<... except for the rules of arithmetic, a total being the sum of the
various categorized flight times.>>

Still just speculation on your part. There is no reason to think that
the listed categorized kinds of time are exhaustive.

The person the OP mentioned got valuable experience, but which may not
fall into any official category.

He can certainly log it as "Total Time" because Total Time can mean
whatever he wants it to mean.

Much of the confusion over this subject would go away if people would
use the proper terms.

[zatatime]

On 19 Dec 2004 04:36:55 -0500, (Frank Ch. Eigler)
wrote:

>
>Greg Esres wrote:
>
>> <<rules are around logging total time>>
>>
>> The FAA has not defined "Total Time", so there are no rules about it.
>
>... except for the rules of arithmetic, a total being the sum of the
>various categorized flight times.
>
>As far as logging time in the OP's case, dual would come closest, but
>then the person giving instruction and the circumstances would have to
>qualify.
>
>- FChE

Unfortunately the PIC was an ATP.

z

[zatatime]

On 19 Dec 2004 06:53:26 -0800, "houstondan"
> wrote:

>i suppose the real issue would be how you intend to use that tabulation
>of "total hours".
>
>near as i can tell, it wouldn't qualify for anything as far as ratings
>or insurance and trying to use it as such could be really bad.
>dan


The intent was for adherance to insurance requirements for employment,
and while it seems there isn't a cut and dry answer, your "could be
real bad" comment about sums up how to proceed.

Thanks.
z

[Gary Drescher]

"Greg Esres" > wrote in message
...
> <<... except for the rules of arithmetic, a total being the sum of the
> various categorized flight times.>>
>
> Still just speculation on your part. There is no reason to think that
> the listed categorized kinds of time are exhaustive.
>
> The person the OP mentioned got valuable experience, but which may not
> fall into any official category.
>
> He can certainly log it as "Total Time" because Total Time can mean
> whatever he wants it to mean.
>
> Much of the confusion over this subject would go away if people would
> use the proper terms.

Yes, especially the FAA. But as long as the FAA's aeronautical-experience
regulations speak of "total time as a pilot" (presumably meaning the same
thing as the defined term "pilot time"), it seems reasonable for pilots
abbreviate that phrase to "total time" (in a context that clearly refers to
time as a pilot).

--Gary

[G.R. Patterson III]

zatatime wrote:
>
> My specific example is a person who flew literally hundreds of hours
> before getting a license (no solo privs either). He performed all the
> duties of the flight including take-off, cross country navigation,
> landing, communications, maneuvers, etc... He was always accompanied
> by someone who was acting as pilot in command, but whom never touched
> the stick. Is it legal for him to log total time for these flights?

My logbook has several columns for time. He could log the time under the
"aircraft category" column, under "class" (if applicable), under "conditions of
flight" (if applicable), under "cross country" (if applicable), and under "total
duration of flight." He cannot log it under "pilot in command", since he was not
rated. He cannot log it as "dual received" unless the other person in the plane
was a CFI.

That what he *can* do. IMO, it's going to make his logbook look really weird,
which invites hostile scrutiny by the FAA if they ever get a look at it. It
probably would also confuse insurance companies if he ever tries to insure an
aircraft an aircraft. That's two big disadvantages right there. What does
logging the time buy him? Nothing that I can see. None of this time counts in
furtherance of any certificates.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[zatatime]

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 20:51:26 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

> What does
>logging the time buy him? Nothing that I can see. None of this time counts in
>furtherance of any certificates.


He doesn't "need" anymore certificates right now. What it would buy
him is meeting a total time requirement for a job, and meeting
insurance requirements for insurance on planes his family own part or
all of. Right now he's got about 750-800 hours with 500 in
multi-engine airplanes. Most jobs want 1000 total, as do his
insurance companies. (I saw the other thread on getting insurance...I
don't want to go there for right now, and am only relating what he and
his father have told me about their insurance woes.) So when he flies
the Aztec, Stomp, or Great Lakes he isn't insured. He did finally get
put on the policy for the SNJ.

His father has always kept a log book and noted when the son was with
him doing the flying. Turns out the kid had about 400 hours before he
ever turned 16 (and that doesn't include time he was in the airplane
with someone else doing the flying)! Being able to capture some of
that time would put him over the 1000 hour mark, and send him on his
career path more quickly.

When I made the post, I was thinking along the same lines to what you
and Gregg have posted. What I'm not sure about are the possible
repercussions if something were to happen.

z

[G.R. Patterson III]

zatatime wrote:
>
> When I made the post, I was thinking along the same lines to what you
> and Gregg have posted. What I'm not sure about are the possible
> repercussions if something were to happen.

Well, I've attended some discussions of this sort of thing at FAA seminars.
Inspector Ryan of the Allentown FAA made the statement at one that "It's your
logbook; you can put anything in it you want to." He continued on to state that
the FAA only cares if you try to use a false entry to obtain certification. That
was about 8 years ago, but nothing's changed AFAIK.

The regulations describe what you can and cannot log as PIC and dual
instruction. There doesn't appear to be any regulation that states that a
non-rated pilot can't log the time in other categories. If there is no
prohibition against doing something, it is, by definition, legal to do it.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Tim B]

I don't think he can log PIC time. That is also true of student pilots
receiving dual. They don't get PIC time unless they are alone in the
aircraft except on their checkride. At least that's what it was when I was
getting my private. But my instrument rating was all PIC because I was
rated in the airplane and the sole manipulator of the controls.

Interestingly, while getting twin-time instruction, it is also not PIC time
until the rating even though I have private SEL rating.


"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
> Does anyone know what the rules are around logging total time?
>
> My specific example is a person who flew literally hundreds of hours
> before getting a license (no solo privs either). He performed all the
> duties of the flight including take-off, cross country navigation,
> landing, communications, maneuvers, etc... He was always accompanied
> by someone who was acting as pilot in command, but whom never touched
> the stick. Is it legal for him to log total time for these flights?
> Is there a way to log total time without logging either PIC, SIC, or
> Dual Received/Given?
>
> Thanks for any responses to this.
>
> z

[Frank Ch. Eigler]

Greg Esres wrote:

> <<... except for the rules of arithmetic, a total being the sum of the
> various categorized flight times.>>
>
> Still just speculation on your part. There is no reason to think that
> the listed categorized kinds of time are exhaustive.

Fine. He can invent a "was a helpful passenger" column/category in a
log book, and add it there, and thence accumulate into a "total".

> The person the OP mentioned got valuable experience, but which may not
> fall into any official category. [...]

That's true. Nevertheless, if the person is proposing to use this
valuable but unofficial time in furtherance of ratings or insurance
experience credits, he had better discuss this with the respective
agency, lest he be suspected of fraud.

- FChE