filling Oxygen tanks

[Bruce McFadden]

Santa's wife has decided that she would prefer that I fly with oxygen
even below 12.5K and especially at night. So I've been given a tank et
al. I was shocked today when I had it filled at Merucry Air. It is a
415 L size D tank. Because the pressure in their filling tanks were a
bit low, they could only fill my new tank to 1700 lbs, not to a fully
topped off level of 2000 lbs.
They charged me $40 flat fee..... a discount they said because it is a
small cylinder. That seem really steep to me.

Is this about right fur filling an O2 tank. I've heard that it is OK to
have the tank filled at other places such as with medical O2 or welding
O2. Is that OK?

Bruce McFadden Birmingham, AL
PA32-260 N5594J

[John Clear]

In article >,
Bruce McFadden > wrote:
>
>Is this about right fur filling an O2 tank. I've heard that it is OK to
>have the tank filled at other places such as with medical O2 or welding
>O2. Is that OK?

Take a look at http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html

Basically, welding 02, medical O2 and aviation O2 are the same.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.panix.com/~jac

[Len]

John Clear wrote:
> In article >,
> Bruce McFadden > wrote:
>
>>Is this about right fur filling an O2 tank. I've heard that it is OK to
>>have the tank filled at other places such as with medical O2 or welding
>>O2. Is that OK?
>
>
> Take a look at http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html
>
> Basically, welding 02, medical O2 and aviation O2 are the same.
>
> John

I used to work as a plant engineer for a large company that made Liquid
Oxygen, Liquid Argon and Liquid Nitrogen.

The other thing the article fails to cover is that ABO (aviator's
breathing oxygen) and Medical grade oxygen are filtered and tested for
particulates. When making the Liquid oxygen, the air is compressed and
expanded through several compressors and turbines. It is also passed
through a bed of Alumina and Molecular Sieve, all which can leave some
particulates. ABO and medical grade are tested for these, and have
specific requirements. Welding grade O2 doesn't have a filtering
requirement.

In some cases the LOX comes from the same source, so you would probably
be safe to use welding grade oxygen, however, in some facilities, they
are not equipped with the filters nor do they test for particles. You
may be exposing yourself to minute particles of compressors, molecular
sieve, alumina, etc. Is this bad for you?- I don't know.

Finally, if you do decide to do any sort of oxygen re-filling yourself,
you should really give it some healthy respect. Oxygen, if mistreated
can be extremely dangerous (hey- it's the perfect oxidizer). I've seen
heavy stainless steel valves, aluminum and steel piping melted like
butter during a flash fire in an oxygen system. Make sure to use oxygen
compatible materials. Even the oils in your hands can cause a fire in a
pure oxygen environment.

The Compress Gas Association has guidelines for working with it, and
using proper materials for refilling cylinders. Check out
www.cganet.com. Like the article says, a good Oxygen supply company can
help with the components as well.


Len

[Robert M. Gary]

Bruce McFadden wrote:
> Santa's wife has decided that she would prefer that I fly with oxygen
> even below 12.5K and especially at night. So I've been given a tank
et
> al. I was shocked today when I had it filled at Merucry Air. It is
a
> 415 L size D tank. Because the pressure in their filling tanks were
a
> bit low, they could only fill my new tank to 1700 lbs, not to a fully
> topped off level of 2000 lbs.
> They charged me $40 flat fee..... a discount they said because it is
a
> small cylinder. That seem really steep to me.
>
> Is this about right fur filling an O2 tank. I've heard that it is OK
to
> have the tank filled at other places such as with medical O2 or
welding
> O2. Is that OK?

Yes, but good luck. I don't know of any medical O2 vendors that fill
bottles. They exchange bottles with medical bottles (they also require
a Dr note). I've never found any welding suppliers that have the right
attachment. I normally pay between $50 and $80. I'm not sure where you
got it for $40, but I'd love to share some of it!!

-Robert

[BTIZ]

if you own your own aircraft.. and a hanger to keep it in.. and do a lot of
flying.
check out the local gas supply sources.. our glider club keeps two tanks
on hand, one full, and one partly full, we swap them out one at a time, one
tank we own, one we rent ($9/month)..

to get a full tank is $50 at swap out, and it will fill that tank of yours
a few times... and if you get short changed on a fillup, it's your doing..

BT

"Bruce McFadden" > wrote in message
...
> Santa's wife has decided that she would prefer that I fly with oxygen
> even below 12.5K and especially at night. So I've been given a tank et
> al. I was shocked today when I had it filled at Merucry Air. It is a
> 415 L size D tank. Because the pressure in their filling tanks were a
> bit low, they could only fill my new tank to 1700 lbs, not to a fully
> topped off level of 2000 lbs.
> They charged me $40 flat fee..... a discount they said because it is a
> small cylinder. That seem really steep to me.
>
> Is this about right fur filling an O2 tank. I've heard that it is OK to
> have the tank filled at other places such as with medical O2 or welding
> O2. Is that OK?
>
> Bruce McFadden Birmingham, AL
> PA32-260 N5594J
>

[Michelle P]

Bruce,
The $40 is for the labor. the cost of the O2 is small. Filling your own
is risky if you have not been trained in high pressure gas handling.
Michelle

Bruce McFadden wrote:

>Santa's wife has decided that she would prefer that I fly with oxygen
>even below 12.5K and especially at night. So I've been given a tank et
>al. I was shocked today when I had it filled at Merucry Air. It is a
>415 L size D tank. Because the pressure in their filling tanks were a
>bit low, they could only fill my new tank to 1700 lbs, not to a fully
>topped off level of 2000 lbs.
>They charged me $40 flat fee..... a discount they said because it is a
>small cylinder. That seem really steep to me.
>
>Is this about right fur filling an O2 tank. I've heard that it is OK to
>have the tank filled at other places such as with medical O2 or welding
>O2. Is that OK?
>
>Bruce McFadden Birmingham, AL
>PA32-260 N5594J
>
>
>

[Michelle P]

Oh yeah,
I take mine to work and fill it on a break :-)
Michelle

Bruce McFadden wrote:

>Santa's wife has decided that she would prefer that I fly with oxygen
>even below 12.5K and especially at night. So I've been given a tank et
>al. I was shocked today when I had it filled at Merucry Air. It is a
>415 L size D tank. Because the pressure in their filling tanks were a
>bit low, they could only fill my new tank to 1700 lbs, not to a fully
>topped off level of 2000 lbs.
>They charged me $40 flat fee..... a discount they said because it is a
>small cylinder. That seem really steep to me.
>
>Is this about right fur filling an O2 tank. I've heard that it is OK to
>have the tank filled at other places such as with medical O2 or welding
>O2. Is that OK?
>
>Bruce McFadden Birmingham, AL
>PA32-260 N5594J
>
>
>

[Dave S]

Robert M. Gary wrote:


>
>
I've never found any welding suppliers that have the right
> attachment.
>
> -Robert
>

The welding suppliers should have catalogs from their suppliers. ALL the
fittings are made to CGA standards (Compressed Gas Association). They
dictate things like thread pitch and direction for specific gas mixtures
to keep say.. an oxygen tank from going on a nitrogen fitting, etc.

If you dig enough, you WILL find the fittings.

Dave

[Roger]

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:41:07 -0800, "BTIZ" >
wrote:

>if you own your own aircraft.. and a hanger to keep it in.. and do a lot of
>flying.
>check out the local gas supply sources.. our glider club keeps two tanks
>on hand, one full, and one partly full, we swap them out one at a time, one
>tank we own, one we rent ($9/month)..
>
>to get a full tank is $50 at swap out, and it will fill that tank of yours
>a few times... and if you get short changed on a fillup, it's your doing..

Good GAWD, I've been paying a tad over $20 USD for a full size tank
exchange. I lease them. No hassles of testing. Just take in when I
need gas. I think it was around a $100 for the 10 year lease. I
don't know if I could still find the papers.

Just be careful when working with pressures that high. That stuff is
dangerous. Don't get it near any oil and don't even leave body oil on
connections. I've plumbed many a manifold with up to 8 high pressure
tanks and not lost one yet. Although not set up now, I used 1/4 SS
tubing for the connections when filling tanks. Nothing larger.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>BT
>
>"Bruce McFadden" > wrote in message
...
>> Santa's wife has decided that she would prefer that I fly with oxygen
>> even below 12.5K and especially at night. So I've been given a tank et
>> al. I was shocked today when I had it filled at Merucry Air. It is a
>> 415 L size D tank. Because the pressure in their filling tanks were a
>> bit low, they could only fill my new tank to 1700 lbs, not to a fully
>> topped off level of 2000 lbs.
>> They charged me $40 flat fee..... a discount they said because it is a
>> small cylinder. That seem really steep to me.
>>
>> Is this about right fur filling an O2 tank. I've heard that it is OK to
>> have the tank filled at other places such as with medical O2 or welding
>> O2. Is that OK?
>>
>> Bruce McFadden Birmingham, AL
>> PA32-260 N5594J
>>
>

[Marty]

"Len" > wrote in message
...
> I used to work as a plant engineer for a large company that made Liquid
> Oxygen, Liquid Argon and Liquid Nitrogen.
> --snip--
Welding grade O2 doesn't have a filtering
> requirement.
> --snip--
> Len

Would a final filter for a medical O2 concentrator be of any benefit?

Just curious,

Marty

[Dan Foster]

Aviation oxygen is also guaranteed for a particular maximum moisture
level -- premise being that it would be 'a bad day' if there were excess
moisture and if it froze (impeding oxygen delivery) while at the
higher/colder altitudes.

Other than that, I'd agree that these three sources are, for most
practical purposes, identical aside from the cost.

Some more details including regulatory citations:

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html

-Dan

(Wondering if Santa is going to deliver a plane that will allow me to
finally start worrying about needing supplementary oxygen. Probably not,
but one can dream. :-) )

[Roger]

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 09:36:29 +0000 (UTC), Dan Foster
> wrote:

>Aviation oxygen is also guaranteed for a particular maximum moisture
>level -- premise being that it would be 'a bad day' if there were excess
>moisture and if it froze (impeding oxygen delivery) while at the
>higher/colder altitudes.
>
>Other than that, I'd agree that these three sources are, for most
>practical purposes, identical aside from the cost.
>
>Some more details including regulatory citations:
>
>http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html

Although he recommends storing the tanks laying down, some regulations
may require storing them upright and safety chained to prevent falling
over. It's certainly handier than with the tanks laying on the floor.

One thing he didn't mention about transportation: Never, move or
transport a high pressure cylinder without the screw on cap in place!
I don't even move them around the shop without that cap in place. It's
really good protection for that high pressure valve. I certainly would
want it in place any time I was not using the tank(s) if they were
laying down.

I don't do that much flying at altitude, but once the tanks got down
to 1000 PSI I could use them with the welder and cutting torch. With
the Cutting torch or "Rosebud" tip you go through O2 in a hurry.

>
>-Dan
>
>(Wondering if Santa is going to deliver a plane that will allow me to
>finally start worrying about needing supplementary oxygen. Probably not,
>but one can dream. :-) )

If you fly at night, or above 5 or 6,000 feet it might be worth while
considering now. <:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[G.R. Patterson III]

Roger wrote:
>
> Although he recommends storing the tanks laying down, some regulations
> may require storing them upright and safety chained to prevent falling
> over.

Any idea why upright is a good idea? I've always heard it's safer, but never
heard a reason why that would be true.

> One thing he didn't mention about transportation: Never, move or
> transport a high pressure cylinder without the screw on cap in place!

Neither of my tanks (neither acetylene nor oxygen) has provision for a cap.
Unfortunately.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[rocky]

G.R. Patterson III wrote:
>
> Roger wrote:
>
>>Although he recommends storing the tanks laying down, some regulations
>>may require storing them upright and safety chained to prevent falling
>>over.
>
>
> Any idea why upright is a good idea? I've always heard it's safer, but never
> heard a reason why that would be true.
>
>
>>One thing he didn't mention about transportation: Never, move or
>>transport a high pressure cylinder without the screw on cap in place!
>
>
> Neither of my tanks (neither acetylene nor oxygen) has provision for a cap.
> Unfortunately.
>
> George Patterson
> The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.
Storing tanks upright puts the thickest part of the tank (the bottom)
exactly where any moisture will settle. Thus giving the tank a much
longer life span against rusting thru.

[G.R. Patterson III]

rocky wrote:
>
> Storing tanks upright puts the thickest part of the tank (the bottom)
> exactly where any moisture will settle. Thus giving the tank a much
> longer life span against rusting thru.

Ok -- thanks.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Roger]

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 00:27:29 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>
>
>Roger wrote:
>>
>> Although he recommends storing the tanks laying down, some regulations
>> may require storing them upright and safety chained to prevent falling
>> over.
>
>Any idea why upright is a good idea? I've always heard it's safer, but never
>heard a reason why that would be true.
>
>> One thing he didn't mention about transportation: Never, move or
>> transport a high pressure cylinder without the screw on cap in place!
>
>Neither of my tanks (neither acetylene nor oxygen) has provision for a cap.
>Unfortunately.
>

I didn't think they could sell them without them.
Tanks have had to have that provision for years. OTOH there are a lot
of lost caps floating around... some where.

The acetylene and Oxygen tanks on my welding cart both have the caps,
but you'd never be able to put them on with the regulators in place.
Still, when in the cart they are pretty much protected even if the
cart were to tip over. Hasn't yet.

If the Acetylene tank were laying down I think I'd have a problem with
all the acetone coming out the torch tip.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>George Patterson
> The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Blanche]

I thought acetylene had to be stored upright?

[G.R. Patterson III]

Roger wrote:
>
> I didn't think they could sell them without them.

I don't remember what they call the sizes of my bottles. The acetylene is about
32" high and maybe 7" or 9" diameter. The oxygen is shorter but about as fat.
Neither has the threaded collar for a cap.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Blanche wrote:
>
> I thought acetylene had to be stored upright?

Well, my bottle gets transported in a horizontal position when I have to take it
on a job, but I've always stored it and used it in a vertical position. I was
told there are safety reasons for that, so I've always done that. I was always
curious as to what those reasons are, though.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Morgans]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> rocky wrote:
> >
> > Storing tanks upright puts the thickest part of the tank (the bottom)
> > exactly where any moisture will settle. Thus giving the tank a much
> > longer life span against rusting thru.
>
> Ok -- thanks.
>
> George Patterson

Also, and this is a big one, if the valve were knocked off in a vertical
position and chained, it would hiss very loudly, and not go anywhere.
Horizontal positioned bottles with suddenly removed valves, turn into
rockets, and have been known to leave the area at great rates of speed,
regardless of what obstacles stand in their ways. I have heard of a tank
going through a cement block wall, but I would not doubt that this is an
"urban legend".
--
Jim in NC

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 04:24:18 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

snip

>> I thought acetylene had to be stored upright?
>
>Well, my bottle gets transported in a horizontal position when I have to take it
>on a job, but I've always stored it and used it in a vertical position. I was
>told there are safety reasons for that, so I've always done that. I was always
>curious as to what those reasons are, though.

snip

from http://www.thebestlinks.com/Gas_welding.html

Acetylene is obtained from the action of water upon calcium carbide.
Calcium carbide in turn is produced by the reaction together in an
electric arc furnace of carbon and calcium carbonate. Acetylene can be
produced near where the welding is being done in an acetylene
generator. More commonly it is produced in a central plant and then
shipped to the welding site in special containers. These containers
are packed with various porous materials (kapok fibre), then filled
about half way with acetone. The acetylene dissolves into the acetone.
This method is necessary because acetylene is unstable above 207 kPa
(30 lb/in²) and may explode. There is about 1700 kPa (250 lb/in&sup2)
of pressure in the tank when full. Acetylene gives a temperature of
3200 to 3500 ?C (5800 to 6300 ?F) when burned with oygen, which is the
highest temperature of any of the gases mentioned here.

TC

[Morgans]

"Roger" > wrote

> I didn't think they could sell them without them. (caps)
> Tanks have had to have that provision for years. OTOH there are a lot
> of lost caps floating around... some where.

I *think* tanks with a guard around the valve, (so a blow sideways can not
knock off the valve) are still legal. I have an old acetylene tank like
that.

> If the Acetylene tank were laying down I think I'd have a problem with
> all the acetone coming out the torch tip.

Correct. Acetylene is actually dissolved in acetone, so as you use the gas
and the pressure gets lower, the acetylene "evaporates" or "comes out of
solution" to come out the tip as a gas. If the tank were on its side, you
would get acetone coming out of the tip.

There is also another difference in the tanks, between Oxy and Acety.

The Oxy tank is a big open container on the inside. The Acety. is like a
metal honeycomb, or metal sponge, with the acetylene and acetone in the
little cells. I think it has something to do with providing maximum surface
area of the liquid, allowing the acetylene to come out of solution at rapid
flow rates.
--
Jim in NC

[G.R. Patterson III]

wrote:
>
> from http://www.thebestlinks.com/Gas_welding.html

Ok, I read everything there. IIUC, my welding bottle is filled with some sort of
porous foam and the contents are actually a mix of acetylene and acetone. That
doesn't seem to give any reason for storing the bottle upright -- the acetylene
ought to stay in solution regardless of position. Use would be a different
matter, I suppose. If the bottle is upright, I'll get acetylene gas out of it
when I open the valve. If it's on its side, I'm likely to get acetone out,
right? And if too much of the acetone comes out, the remaining acetylene will
blow.

Hummmmmmmm. Maybe I need to start transporting the stuff upright too, just in
case. While we're at it, let's get it a lot further away from me too.

Thanks.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Morgans]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote

> Well, my bottle gets transported in a horizontal position when I have to
take it
> on a job, but I've always stored it and used it in a vertical position. I
was
> told there are safety reasons for that, so I've always done that. I was
always
> curious as to what those reasons are, though.
>
> George Patterson

Although I have also transported cylinders horizontal at times, you (and
I)are violating DOT regulation when we do. They must be vertical, and
chained. (not bungee strapped, or tied with rope) There may be an out, if
the cylinders are under a certain size.
--
Jim in NC

[G.R. Patterson III]

Morgans wrote:
>
> I have heard of a tank
> going through a cement block wall, but I would not doubt that this is an
> "urban legend".

I'm sure one could do that. Toecutter just posted a link that states that
acetylene bottles are pressurized to 250 pounds per square inch. I know the big
bottles weigh something over 150 pounds. A concrete block can be easily
shattered with a sledge hammer. Let one of those big bottles accelerate about
ten feet, and I'd bet it wouldn't slow down noticeably going through that wall.

Now that you mention it, I remember someone on the airport job telling me about
an oxygen bottle that went through something substantial. Don't remember the
details, though. I do remember the acetylene bottle that cracked at the neck on
that job. Most of us smoked, of course, and it caught fire. The jet of flame was
well over 60 feet high - it was higher than the tunnel wall, and that was 60
feet high (or deep, depending on how you want to look at it).

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Morgans wrote:
>
> Although I have also transported cylinders horizontal at times, you (and
> I)are violating DOT regulation when we do. They must be vertical, and
> chained. (not bungee strapped, or tied with rope) There may be an out, if
> the cylinders are under a certain size.

Mine may be under that size, but vertical it will be from now on.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Blanche]

The local A&P school in Denver keeps the O2 bottles inside but the
acetylene is stored upright outside the building in a chained off
area (right outside the door). According to them, the threads on
the bottles are left-handed, to ensure that the O2 (and nitrogen)
valves cannot be accidentally installed on them. Plus, all 3 gases
are in different colored tanks (O2 is green, as we all know...)
The nitrogen is in black bottles. Forgot what color the
acetylene is...

[G.R. Patterson III]

Blanche wrote:
>
> According to them, the threads on
> the bottles are left-handed, to ensure that the O2 (and nitrogen)
> valves cannot be accidentally installed on them.

That's correct. The threads on flammable gases are the reverse of non-flammable.

> Plus, all 3 gases
> are in different colored tanks (O2 is green, as we all know...)
> The nitrogen is in black bottles. Forgot what color the
> acetylene is...

I used to have a small one that was orange. What paint there is on my current
bottle is silver. IIRC, nitrous oxide bottles are blue.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[AES/newspost]

In article >,
"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote:

> Now that you mention it, I remember someone on the airport
> job telling me about an oxygen bottle that went through
> something substantial.

I was told once that by an aero & astro faculty colleague if you were to
make a gas bottle out of the best available steel, optimize the wall
thickness for best tradeoff between weight and bursting strength, fill
it with water, put a big Bunsen burner under it and heat it until it was
just on the edge of bursting, tilt it at the right angle, and knock off
the valve end, you'd have a steam rocket that could (just barely)
achieve Earth orbit. Can't vouch for the numbers myself.

The jet cycle that Evel Knievel attempted to fly across the Snake River
Canyon in was a steam rocket.

[MLenoch]

>Horizontal positioned bottles with suddenly removed valves, turn into
>rockets, and have been known to leave the area at great rates of speed,
>regardless of what obstacles stand in their ways.

I've seen old USAF photos of the aftermath of one such 'rocket'. Concrete
walls do not stand a chance. You suddenly get religon.......and start storing
them correctly, right away.

But, old USAF O2 refill carts contained 4 or 6 bottles (or maybe 8)
horizontally strapped onto wheeled carts. I always wondered why this
horizontal configuration was used. The bottles were connected into a manifold
array and well protected from potential valve damage exposure.
VL

[G.R. Patterson III]

AES/newspost wrote:
>
> Can't vouch for the numbers myself.

Well, the memories are 25 years old, but, IIRC, somebody slipped, the bottle
tipped over, and the fall snapped the valve off. It was really moving by the
time it hit a tunnel wall. Knocked a hole in a concrete wall but was stopped by
the mesh of rebar. The exterior walls on those tunnels are 18" thick; inner
partition walls somewhat less (maybe 12"). The rebar on those walls is #10
(10/8" diameter) spaced about 6" apart. There are also some stub walls that are
"only" about 6" or 8" thick with smaller rebar. Dunno which wall it hit. The
concrete it hit might've been less than 30 days old but was not fresh.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Marty]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>> Plus, all 3 gases
>> are in different colored tanks (O2 is green, as we all know...)
>> The nitrogen is in black bottles. Forgot what color the
>> acetylene is...
>
> I used to have a small one that was orange. What paint there is on my
> current
> bottle is silver. IIRC, nitrous oxide bottles are blue.
>
> George Patterson
> The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

The transport and storage of compressed cyls are controlled primarily by two
organizations.
The Dept of Transportation (gov), and The National Fire Protection
Agency(non-gov)
Both are to enable Fire and EMS responders to identify hazards at a glance

1. The DOT (Law)

Acetylene-Red Hazard Placard for a 2.1 flammable compressed gas
Oxygen-Yellow Hazard Placard for 2.2 non-flammable compressed gas
Nitrous Oxide-Green Hazard Placard for a 2.2 non-flammable gas
The vehicle carrying the HazMat, must display placards as required.

2.The NFPA (Standard but not law)

Acetylene-Red Paint
Oxygen-Green Paint
Nitrous Oxide-Blue Paint

With the exception of O2, I've seen many colors used on gas cylinders like
silver, red orange and even black on acetylene tanks. My current tank is
orange.
The color placarding and painting requirements of hazardous materials
containers is for the use of these items "IN COMMERCE". For aircraft the FAA
and DOT may have separate rules.
For personal use these requirements are invalid. As an example, a nitrous
bottle in a hot rod can be any color and not placarded. It is personally
owned and transported.

HTH,
Marty

[CV]

Len wrote:

> John Clear wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> Bruce McFadden > wrote:
>>
>>> Is this about right fur filling an O2 tank. I've heard that it is OK to
>>> have the tank filled at other places such as with medical O2 or welding
>>> O2. Is that OK?
>>
>>
>>
>> Take a look at http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html
>>
>> Basically, welding 02, medical O2 and aviation O2 are the same.
>>
>> John
>
>
> I used to work as a plant engineer for a large company that made Liquid
> Oxygen, Liquid Argon and Liquid Nitrogen.
>
> The other thing the article fails to cover is that ABO (aviator's

Which was the first ?
CV

[Len]

Marty wrote:
> "Len" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I used to work as a plant engineer for a large company that made Liquid
>>Oxygen, Liquid Argon and Liquid Nitrogen.
>>--snip--
>
> Welding grade O2 doesn't have a filtering
>
>>requirement.
>>--snip--
>>Len
>
>
> Would a final filter for a medical O2 concentrator be of any benefit?
>
> Just curious,
>
> Marty
>
>
>
Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the medical end devices. If the
filter is "pure" oxygen compatible, and can handle the line pressure, it
might be able to. But, since I'm not familiar with concentrators I would
suggest to ask the concentrator manufacturer or the filter manufacturer.

Len

[Roger]

On 27 Dec 2004 02:24:29 GMT, (MLenoch) wrote:

>>Horizontal positioned bottles with suddenly removed valves, turn into
>>rockets, and have been known to leave the area at great rates of speed,
>>regardless of what obstacles stand in their ways.
>
>I've seen old USAF photos of the aftermath of one such 'rocket'. Concrete
>walls do not stand a chance. You suddenly get religon.......and start storing
>them correctly, right away.
>
>But, old USAF O2 refill carts contained 4 or 6 bottles (or maybe 8)
>horizontally strapped onto wheeled carts. I always wondered why this
>horizontal configuration was used.

Mainly because it's a lot more convenient.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>The bottles were connected into a manifold
>array and well protected from potential valve damage exposure.
>VL

[Roger]

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 05:57:43 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>
>
>Morgans wrote:
>>
>> I have heard of a tank
>> going through a cement block wall, but I would not doubt that this is an
>> "urban legend".
>
>I'm sure one could do that. Toecutter just posted a link that states that
>acetylene bottles are pressurized to 250 pounds per square inch. I know the big
>bottles weigh something over 150 pounds. A concrete block can be easily
>shattered with a sledge hammer. Let one of those big bottles accelerate about
>ten feet, and I'd bet it wouldn't slow down noticeably going through that wall.

Acetylene bottles present a different hazard than the O2 bottles.
In addition to the Acetylene it should be noted how the Acetylene is
stored.

Acetylene is unstable over 15 psi. It will explosively and
spontaneously decompose.

That brings up the question as to how then do they store it at 250
psi? They dissolve the Acetylene in Acetone. Liquid Acetone can hold
a tremendous amount of Acetylene and it does it safely.

However if the bottle is tipped on its side you can lose Acetone out
the valve. This produces a fire hazard from the liquid Acetone, but
it also can produce a void where the Acetylene is trapped and under
high pressure. As Acetone has such a high affinity for Acetylene this
normally doesn't produce a dangerous situation as the Acetylene will
still be absorbed. Still, if the amount of Acetone allowed to escape
is sufficient you end up with a very dangerous situation.

The end result is "Never store an acetylene cylinder on its side!"
They tell us not to even transport them laying down, but it is done.
It is also a good idea to let the cylinder set in the upright position
for an hour or two before using (if the cylinder was transported
horizontally) I have no idea as to what the actual required time
would be, but I'd assume the couple of hours includes a generous
safety factor.

>
>Now that you mention it, I remember someone on the airport job telling me about
>an oxygen bottle that went through something substantial. Don't remember the
>details, though. I do remember the acetylene bottle that cracked at the neck on
>that job. Most of us smoked, of course, and it caught fire. The jet of flame was
>well over 60 feet high - it was higher than the tunnel wall, and that was 60
>feet high (or deep, depending on how you want to look at it).

Contrary to some reports, Oxygen bottles won't go into orbit <G>. If
they did it'd be one whale of a lot cheaper than current methods.
<:-)) BUT they will go a long way (reports of a quarter of a mile to a
full mile), They will go through concrete walls. Cinder block walls
barely slow one down and any one unfortunate enough to be near one
when it loses a valve is going to suffer some serous hearing problems
at the least.

They can be lethal from a mechanical standpoint and dumping that much
pure oxygen into a room with open fire can be quite spectacular as
well.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>George Patterson
> The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Roger]

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 04:21:24 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>
>
>Roger wrote:
>>
>> I didn't think they could sell them without them.
>
>I don't remember what they call the sizes of my bottles. The acetylene is about
>32" high and maybe 7" or 9" diameter. The oxygen is shorter but about as fat.
>Neither has the threaded collar for a cap.

Usually the Acetylene is the short and fat bottle (due mainly to
holding all that liquid Acetone) while the Oxygen is taller and
thinner. Acetylene tank is painted silver with the Oxygen being
Green. One has Left hand threads and the other, right as I recall.
The fittings are not interchangeable.

I use the full size bottles.

In another life I used to repair those regulators along with a lot of
other stuff.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>George Patterson
> The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Roger]

<snip>
>The Dept of Transportation (gov), and The National Fire Protection
>Agency(non-gov)
>Both are to enable Fire and EMS responders to identify hazards at a glance
>
>1. The DOT (Law)
>
>Acetylene-Red Hazard Placard for a 2.1 flammable compressed gas


Although they call for red the only red Acetylene tanks I've ever seen
were the small, low pressure ones. I've never seen a large Acetylene
tank any color other than Silver. That doesn't mean there aren't any,
I've just never seen any in industry, or at the supplier.

In addition to the right and left hand thread convention, there are
numerous iterations of these for different classes of gasses.

As I recall, there are male and female connectors with both the size
of the connector and number of threads per inch varying.

If you ever work on the regulators, or if you deal with numerous kinds
of gasses you will find *in general* it's pretty difficult to get the
wrong connections made. OTOH I've found regulators where someone
changed the fitting so they could use in on a tank they had handy.

One other caution about welding and aircraft setups. Never lubricate
the threads of an Oxygen carrying system, and particularly a high
pressure system. Even a tiny amount of lubricant exposed to high
pressure Oxygen literally explodes.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>Oxygen-Yellow Hazard Placard for 2.2 non-flammable compressed gas
>Nitrous Oxide-Green Hazard Placard for a 2.2 non-flammable gas
>The vehicle carrying the HazMat, must display placards as required.
<snip>

[Marty]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 04:21:24 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> > wrote:
-Snip-
> Usually the Acetylene is the short and fat bottle (due mainly to
> holding all that liquid Acetone) while the Oxygen is taller and
> thinner. Acetylene tank is painted silver with the Oxygen being
> Green. One has Left hand threads and the other, right as I recall.
> The fittings are not interchangeable.
>
> I use the full size bottles.
>
> In another life I used to repair those regulators along with a lot of
> other stuff.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
>

Your right Roger, I have always had my Acetylene come in silver. For some
reason when I moved from IL to MO I got an orange tank.????

Just a bit of trivia, when I met my wife (mid 70s) her Dad showed me his
shop. His welding set included an acetylene tank with NO paint. He hadn't
used it in years,obviously.

Reflection, my first Deb experience. Gotta tell ya,
In the early 80s I was working off my flying lessons at the airport ( C09 ).
One Sat a Bonanza came in and had me top off the tanks. I told him that it
was the first time I had seen a Bonanza with a conventional tail. Instead
of outright correcting me, he inquired me of my experience in general
conversation (I was a student w <15hrs in a C-152). Somewhere in the
discussion he told me of the Bone/Deb differences. A really nice guy.
After fueling up, he invited me to taxi the Deb to a tie-down, with him
guiding me from the right seat of course.
I didn't get much sleep that night. ;-)

A year later I was able to return the favor and took him for a ride in my
new (to me ) Tri Pacer.

Marty

[Roger]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:08:47 -0600, "Marty" >
wrote:

>
>"Roger" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 04:21:24 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
>> > wrote:
>-Snip-
>> Usually the Acetylene is the short and fat bottle (due mainly to
>> holding all that liquid Acetone) while the Oxygen is taller and
>> thinner. Acetylene tank is painted silver with the Oxygen being
>> Green. One has Left hand threads and the other, right as I recall.
>> The fittings are not interchangeable.
>>
>> I use the full size bottles.
>>
>> In another life I used to repair those regulators along with a lot of
>> other stuff.
>>
>> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
>> www.rogerhalstead.com
>>
>
>Your right Roger, I have always had my Acetylene come in silver. For some
>reason when I moved from IL to MO I got an orange tank.????
I remember seeing an orange tank at a welding shop a few years back
and wondering what the devil was in that<:-))
>
>Just a bit of trivia, when I met my wife (mid 70s) her Dad showed me his
>shop. His welding set included an acetylene tank with NO paint. He hadn't
>used it in years,obviously.
>
>Reflection, my first Deb experience. Gotta tell ya,
>In the early 80s I was working off my flying lessons at the airport ( C09 ).
>One Sat a Bonanza came in and had me top off the tanks. I told him that it
>was the first time I had seen a Bonanza with a conventional tail. Instead
>of outright correcting me, he inquired me of my experience in general
>conversation (I was a student w <15hrs in a C-152). Somewhere in the
>discussion he told me of the Bone/Deb differences. A really nice guy.
>After fueling up, he invited me to taxi the Deb to a tie-down, with him
>guiding me from the right seat of course.
>I didn't get much sleep that night. ;-)

Those first experiences really stand out in our memories don't they?

I remember being at a "Flying Farmers" Dawn Patrol at 3BS in 1960.
here in Midland. I saw a Debonair and said, "Some day I'm going to
have one of those". Little did I know that was probably the plane I
have now as Mine flew around the US for a year as a demonstrator.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>A year later I was able to return the favor and took him for a ride in my
>new (to me ) Tri Pacer.
>
>Marty
>
>

[[email protected]]

You may want to check with a scuba diving shop. Most shops that I know
provide Nitrox (enriched oxygen air) refills for something like $10 and
should be able to fill oxygen tanks as well. Some shops also sell DAN
medical oxygen bottles and definitely would refill oxygen.