Pilot Training Contract

[Bravo8500]

I signed a training contract with a small 121 airline as first officer
(19 pax turbo prop). I left just before training was finished (after my
first round of IOE) because I felt the job was too stressful for me to
accomplish safely, and that's what I told them when I left. They want
to sue me now for breach of contract, saying I left voluntarily. I'm
thinking it's a conflict of interest for them to create financial
pressure on a pilot to remain in a position against his best judgment.
What if I couldn't afford to pay the money and stayed, and caused an
accident? I hope you don't mind this legal-type question. Any advice?
Bravo8500

[BTIZ]

looks to me like you signed a contract.. for training which required x
number of months flying for the company after training was completed.. if
they felt you were unsafe.. they would have drummed you out... but you broke
the contract.. they provided training as agreed... you owe them $$ or time
on the stick... as most of those agreements state up front.

I'm not the lawyer.. but I don't think you have a wing and a prayer to get
out of paying the fee.. and if they end up taking you to court.. they may
also get the legal fees added on.

Bottom line, you did leave voluntarily, they did not force you out.

BT


"Bravo8500" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I signed a training contract with a small 121 airline as first officer
> (19 pax turbo prop). I left just before training was finished (after my
> first round of IOE) because I felt the job was too stressful for me to
> accomplish safely, and that's what I told them when I left. They want
> to sue me now for breach of contract, saying I left voluntarily. I'm
> thinking it's a conflict of interest for them to create financial
> pressure on a pilot to remain in a position against his best judgment.
> What if I couldn't afford to pay the money and stayed, and caused an
> accident? I hope you don't mind this legal-type question. Any advice?
> Bravo8500
>

[Bravo8500]

How much would you guess legal fees would be if I lose - the contract
provides that they can sue for them.

[Morgans]

"Bravo8500" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> How much would you guess legal fees would be if I lose - the contract
> provides that they can sue for them.

Would you lose? Are you kidding me? Read the writing on the wall. You
WILL lose. They have people do what you are doing, although for different
reasons than yours, and are very good at winning these type of court cases.
Pay up, or work on, your choice, but to take the chance of having to pay
legal fees on top is senseless.

--
Jim in NC

[G.R. Patterson III]

Bravo8500 wrote:
>
> How much would you guess legal fees would be if I lose - the contract
> provides that they can sue for them.

The last time I considered going to court to defend a lawsuit, my attorney told
me his fees would be around $3,000. The actual cost of filing in New Jersey is
$50. If it actually goes to court, there will be court costs at several hundred
dollars per hour. So, if they have two attorneys and the case takes a couple
days in court, you're over $10,000 in legal costs. Plus your own lawyer's fees.

Your mileage *will* vary.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[BTIZ]

if you loose??

If I were a betting man.. I would say you WILL loose..

it would be better to complete the training.. work the required servitude
off.. and then quit..

they are protecting their investment.. that you get training.. and then go
work for someone else..

that is the standard contract around here.. with two small "commuter" Ditch
Running airlines..

They provide training, type certificates.. and you fly for them for a year..
or pay them $5000 (was the last going rate)

BT

"Bravo8500" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> How much would you guess legal fees would be if I lose - the contract
> provides that they can sue for them.
>

[569]

You might be stuck, but I'd call the AOPA Legal Services and ask
around. If you honestly saw some violations of FAR, you should report
them. This is a tricky subject. What if you were flying as a captain
and didn't want to fly a leg due to weather or any other issue, but
dispatch insisted the flight was safe. You are PIC, but they pay your
check. I am sure many people have died flying because of pressures
from the employer. You made the right choice.

[aluckyguess]

How do you find out about these programs? Sounds interesting.
"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:Eh3Ad.59734$QR1.19997@fed1read04...
> if you loose??
>
> If I were a betting man.. I would say you WILL loose..
>
> it would be better to complete the training.. work the required servitude
> off.. and then quit..
>
> they are protecting their investment.. that you get training.. and then go
> work for someone else..
>
> that is the standard contract around here.. with two small "commuter"
> Ditch Running airlines..
>
> They provide training, type certificates.. and you fly for them for a
> year.. or pay them $5000 (was the last going rate)
>
> BT
>
> "Bravo8500" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> How much would you guess legal fees would be if I lose - the contract
>> provides that they can sue for them.
>>
>
>

[Bravo8500]

Just go to any small airlines website and look at hiring requirements.
Most are 1500 total and 100 multi I think. Apply, and they'll have you
sign a wonderful training contract.

[BTIZ]

Scenic Airlines, Vision Airlines, Air Vegas (closed?) all at KVGT, Las Vegas
NV
Flying Twin Otters, Beech 99s, etc..

BT

"aluckyguess" > wrote in message
...
> How do you find out about these programs? Sounds interesting.
> "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> news:Eh3Ad.59734$QR1.19997@fed1read04...
>> if you loose??
>>
>> If I were a betting man.. I would say you WILL loose..
>>
>> it would be better to complete the training.. work the required servitude
>> off.. and then quit..
>>
>> they are protecting their investment.. that you get training.. and then
>> go work for someone else..
>>
>> that is the standard contract around here.. with two small "commuter"
>> Ditch Running airlines..
>>
>> They provide training, type certificates.. and you fly for them for a
>> year.. or pay them $5000 (was the last going rate)
>>
>> BT
>>
>> "Bravo8500" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> How much would you guess legal fees would be if I lose - the contract
>>> provides that they can sue for them.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[BTIZ]

The original poster said nothing of FAR violations... only that he realized
that flying the line as a co-pilot for a part 121 operation was too
stressful for him.. and he decided to leave the FREE training before
graduation... now the part 121 operator wants payment for him not fulfilling
his portion of the contract... they wasted time and energy and flying costs
to not get a qualified copilot.

BT

"569" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> You might be stuck, but I'd call the AOPA Legal Services and ask
> around. If you honestly saw some violations of FAR, you should report
> them. This is a tricky subject. What if you were flying as a captain
> and didn't want to fly a leg due to weather or any other issue, but
> dispatch insisted the flight was safe. You are PIC, but they pay your
> check. I am sure many people have died flying because of pressures
> from the employer. You made the right choice.
>

[aluckyguess]

"Bravo8500" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Just go to any small airlines website and look at hiring requirements.
> Most are 1500 total and 100 multi I think. Apply, and they'll have you
> sign a wonderful training contract.
>
Well I have a way to go before I can apply.

[Bravo8500]

The only FAR I had in mind would be the validity of my medical if I
find I'm under all this stress. It's probably a far stretch. What about
the fact that I was never shown a typical schedule until IOE, which
includes about 15hours in uniform for three days each?

[Colin W Kingsbury]

This is a stretch but you might be able to make a claim under the Americans
with Disabilities Act if the schedule was truly going to make you unable to
maintain medical certification versus just hating your job. It might not be
the ethical thing to do but employers hate ADA cases and might very well eat
the bill rather than fight something that could blow up in their face.

"Bravo8500" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The only FAR I had in mind would be the validity of my medical if I
> find I'm under all this stress. It's probably a far stretch. What about
> the fact that I was never shown a typical schedule until IOE, which
> includes about 15hours in uniform for three days each?
>

[Gig Giacona]

"Colin W Kingsbury" > wrote in message
k.net...
> This is a stretch but you might be able to make a claim under the
> Americans
> with Disabilities Act if the schedule was truly going to make you unable
> to
> maintain medical certification versus just hating your job. It might not
> be
> the ethical thing to do but employers hate ADA cases and might very well
> eat
> the bill rather than fight something that could blow up in their face.
>
> "Bravo8500" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> The only FAR I had in mind would be the validity of my medical if I
>> find I'm under all this stress. It's probably a far stretch. What about
>> the fact that I was never shown a typical schedule until IOE, which
>> includes about 15hours in uniform for three days each?
>>
>
>

The smart thing to do was to go to his Doctor and request medicine for the
stress on the job. Then he would have been required to report it to the FAA
and his flying days would have been over.

[NW_PILOT]

"Bravo8500" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> How much would you guess legal fees would be if I lose - the contract
> provides that they can sue for them.
>

Civil Judgments, Can be long and costly.

[NW_PILOT]

You see that a lot in truck driving schools/company's had a friend that got
sick during a long haul job just after truck driving school went to the
hospital they kept him for 6 weeks he know has to pay for his truck driving
training, medical bills ect because of 30 day's of job abandonment was not
ann employee for 90 day for medical to kick in. It will cost him more in
attorneys fees than it would cost just to pay for the truck driving
training. I think he worked for Werner Trucking


"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:Eh3Ad.59734$QR1.19997@fed1read04...
> if you loose??
>
> If I were a betting man.. I would say you WILL loose..
>
> it would be better to complete the training.. work the required servitude
> off.. and then quit..
>
> they are protecting their investment.. that you get training.. and then go
> work for someone else..
>
> that is the standard contract around here.. with two small "commuter"
Ditch
> Running airlines..
>
> They provide training, type certificates.. and you fly for them for a
year..
> or pay them $5000 (was the last going rate)
>
> BT
>
> "Bravo8500" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > How much would you guess legal fees would be if I lose - the contract
> > provides that they can sue for them.
> >
>
>

[Ditch]

>The only FAR I had in mind would be the validity of my medical if I
>find I'm under all this stress. It's probably a far stretch. What about
>the fact that I was never shown a typical schedule until IOE, which
>includes about 15hours in uniform for three days each?

Did you not do any research before you applied and signed the training
contract? You didn't talk to anyone before you signed on? 15 hour days are
typical. Big deal...I don't see the stress in that, but that is me. BTW, since
you signed the contract, they will come after you.
In the days past, it used to not be that way. But a few companies went after a
couple of pilots that did what you did...and they won! So now, every company is
trying to do this.
Good luck getting another 121 or 135 job (with someone respectable)...try
explaining that you left during IOE at an interview.





-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

[Bravo8500]

>but that is me.

Yep.


> Good luck getting another 121 or 135 job (with someone
respectable)...try
> explaining that you left during IOE at an interview.
Disrespectable's not all bad.

[houstondan]

i expect everybody is right about your chances of getting out of the
contract. you have not said but i expect it's written as an
employment OR training contract . if you decide to walk it then the
companys lawyers will try to make a guess at how much you're worth
before they stack the billing. if they give you a discovery demand
that looks like the new york phone directory then they've decided
you've got some money and 3 senior lawyers and several helpers will
show up at the first disposition, happily talking about baseball and
such.
then again....are you familiar with the term "judgment-proof"?

dan

[Capt.Doug]

>"aluckyguess" wrote in message > Well I have a way to go before I can
apply.

Forget about those programs. Flight instruct for a while. Work your way into
a charter job. The bigger regionals will hire you without a stupid contract.

D.

[Capt.Doug]

>"Bravo8500" wrote in message >
> The only FAR I had in mind would be the validity of my medical if I
> find I'm under all this stress. It's probably a far stretch. What about
> the fact that I was never shown a typical schedule until IOE, which
> includes about 15hours in uniform for three days each?

Be a man! Admit that you could not hack it. Offer them their money back.
Hold yourself personally accountable!

D.

[NW_PILOT]

"houstondan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> i expect everybody is right about your chances of getting out of the
> contract. you have not said but i expect it's written as an
> employment OR training contract . if you decide to walk it then the
> companys lawyers will try to make a guess at how much you're worth
> before they stack the billing. if they give you a discovery demand
> that looks like the new york phone directory then they've decided
> you've got some money and 3 senior lawyers and several helpers will
> show up at the first disposition, happily talking about baseball and
> such.
> then again....are you familiar with the term "judgment-proof"?
>
> dan
>

Yep, Dan has it right! but he forgot to tell you that Discovery can be very
very costly also lots of your time sitting in a gathering documents
responding with 3 or more copy's of every thing. If they go after you at the
federal level then the venue can be held very far away at your districts
court house or the district the contract was signed in then you have travel
expenses. If you don't show they get a default for full amount + their
attorney fees. If their attorneys on the east coast and you are on the west
coast each disposition if the attorneys come to you can lead to the
thousands of dollars because attorneys get paid from portal to portal and do
you think they travel coach? and sleep in a motel 8? don't think so! If you
signed a contract abide by it or pay the contract off very simple.

[NW_PILOT]

"Capt.Doug" > wrote in message
...
> >"Bravo8500" wrote in message >
> > The only FAR I had in mind would be the validity of my medical if I
> > find I'm under all this stress. It's probably a far stretch. What about
> > the fact that I was never shown a typical schedule until IOE, which
> > includes about 15hours in uniform for three days each?
>
> Be a man! Admit that you could not hack it. Offer them their money back.
> Hold yourself personally accountable!
>
> D.
>
>

Capt.Doug said it all, well said Capt.Doug

[Ditch]

>Disrespectable's not all bad.
>

If that is where you want to stop your career, then go for it. But if you think
working a 15 hour day is stressful, try flying an ill-maintained airplane in
hard IMC at night at one of these not all bad disrespectable outfits that just
as soon spit on you than anything else.
Welcome to the real world.




-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

[NW_PILOT]

"Ditch" > wrote in message
...
> >Disrespectable's not all bad.
> >
>
> If that is where you want to stop your career, then go for it. But if you
think
> working a 15 hour day is stressful, try flying an ill-maintained airplane
in
> hard IMC at night at one of these not all bad disrespectable outfits that
just
> as soon spit on you than anything else.
> Welcome to the real world.
>
>
>
>
> -John
> *You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or
North
> American*


John, I have found that most people that complain about how stressful their
jobs are have never lived on the streets and have never been forced to eat
out of a trash can to survive! They are the same people that are selfish and
don't give all year around to help their fellow humans survive. This guy
needs to fess up that he needs to complete the contract he signed or pay up
that's it, maybe this guy needs to learn a lesson or two about how not to be
a pansy/flake and get his balls busted by corporate scum once in his life!

[TaxSrv]

"NW_PILOT" wrote:
>
> Yep, Dan has it right! but he forgot to tell you that Discovery can
be very
> costly also lots of your time sitting in a gathering documents...

What exact documents in your possession and of possible interest to
the other side, to be approved by the Court, would be relevant here?
You simply quit. Contract says you owe $5,000 if you do so
prematurely.

> If they go after you at the federal level...

Where is automatic federal jurisdiction here in this private,
contractual matter? Doesn't really matter...see below.

> If their attorneys on the east coast and you are on the west
> coast each disposition if the attorneys come to you can lead
> to the thousands of dollars because attorneys get paid from
> portal to portal and do you think they travel coach?

Huh? You mean "deposition," also as approved by the court. Your atty
can inform the Court of your position pre-trial in this simple matter
and better do so truthfully and carefully, as your testimony may come
later on trial date. Venue and jurisdiction is covered by basic law,
including considerations of travel burdens on you. It could easily be
the County where you live and commuted to work, until breach of
performance occurred when you stopped doing so. It doesn't really
matter. Each party must be represented, unless pro se, by attys
admitted to the bar where the suit is filed, so each engages local
counsel and could be more expensive for the employer in this case.

Fred F.

[Michelle P]

Work out a payment plan before your costs soar to the point that you are
broke until you die.

Bravo8500 wrote:

>I signed a training contract with a small 121 airline as first officer
>(19 pax turbo prop). I left just before training was finished (after my
>first round of IOE) because I felt the job was too stressful for me to
>accomplish safely, and that's what I told them when I left. They want
>to sue me now for breach of contract, saying I left voluntarily. I'm
>thinking it's a conflict of interest for them to create financial
>pressure on a pilot to remain in a position against his best judgment.
>What if I couldn't afford to pay the money and stayed, and caused an
>accident? I hope you don't mind this legal-type question. Any advice?
>Bravo8500
>
>
>

[Dave S]

You signed a financial obligation for some very pricey training. You
have already left the position. You rightfully owe the contracting
company some $$$.

You have quite a bit of marketable experience that you can take and use
to make good on a minimum wage job at a competing carrier

And.. you DID leave voluntarily.

What kind of accident would you have planned on causing (considering all
the other links in the system that are supposed to be there to protect
you and crew and passengers)?

Dave

Bravo8500 wrote:
> I signed a training contract with a small 121 airline as first officer
> (19 pax turbo prop). I left just before training was finished (after my
> first round of IOE) because I felt the job was too stressful for me to
> accomplish safely, and that's what I told them when I left. They want
> to sue me now for breach of contract, saying I left voluntarily. I'm
> thinking it's a conflict of interest for them to create financial
> pressure on a pilot to remain in a position against his best judgment.
> What if I couldn't afford to pay the money and stayed, and caused an
> accident? I hope you don't mind this legal-type question. Any advice?
> Bravo8500
>