What is Southwest airlines Nuts ?

[iflyatiger]

Why in the world would they let us see what goes on at that airline on the
show AIRLINE
on A&E Mondays at 8:00pm eastern.

They overbook and strand passengers and families headed for vacations booked
months in advance.
Remove paying passengers from the plane to accommodate deadheading crew.

I am sure it is written into a law favoring the airline that they can do
this but still it makes me think twice about flying them.

[569]

That airline is pure hell. I used to travel 250,000 miles a year for
business, all domestic. I refused and still refuse to fly them. It's
no better then the Greyhound bus.

[Jim Herring]

It's no different from any other airline. The show is about the day to day
issues the airline and pacs have. Grow up and get over it.

--
Jim

carry on

[C J Campbell]

"569" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> That airline is pure hell. I used to travel 250,000 miles a year for
> business, all domestic. I refused and still refuse to fly them. It's
> no better then the Greyhound bus.
>

Well, you get what you pay for. That is the market that Southwest caters to.

[Dave Stadt]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "569" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > That airline is pure hell. I used to travel 250,000 miles a year for
> > business, all domestic. I refused and still refuse to fly them. It's
> > no better then the Greyhound bus.
> >
>
> Well, you get what you pay for. That is the market that Southwest caters
to.

Southwest flies more passengers by far than any other airline and is one of
a few actually making money. If other airlines want to survive it is the
Southwest model they will have to adopt.

[C J Campbell]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "569" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > > That airline is pure hell. I used to travel 250,000 miles a year for
> > > business, all domestic. I refused and still refuse to fly them. It's
> > > no better then the Greyhound bus.
> > >
> >
> > Well, you get what you pay for. That is the market that Southwest caters
> to.
>
> Southwest flies more passengers by far than any other airline and is one
of
> a few actually making money. If other airlines want to survive it is the
> Southwest model they will have to adopt.

Southwest is the most profitable, but although some other airlines have
tried to copy them, they have so far not been nearly as successful.

I wonder if business travelers should bother with the airlines at all
anymore.

[Dan Luke]

"C J Campbell" wrote:
> I wonder if business travelers should bother with the airlines at all
> anymore.

??

What's the alternative for most of them? High-power bigwigs who can
justify charter or private jet travel are a small fraction of business
travelers.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Peter MacPherson]

I read an article recently that most business travelers that used to fly on
trips
of 300 miles or less, now drive. This is where being a pilot really pays
off.
I've flown myself on trips like this(and longer) where other guys have
driven.
Can't blame them. After driving to the airport, getting there 2 hours early
for
security, praying your flight leaves on time(or at all), it's easier to
drive.



"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "569" > wrote in message
>> > oups.com...
>> > > That airline is pure hell. I used to travel 250,000 miles a year for
>> > > business, all domestic. I refused and still refuse to fly them.
>> > > It's
>> > > no better then the Greyhound bus.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Well, you get what you pay for. That is the market that Southwest
>> > caters
>> to.
>>
>> Southwest flies more passengers by far than any other airline and is one
> of
>> a few actually making money. If other airlines want to survive it is the
>> Southwest model they will have to adopt.
>
> Southwest is the most profitable, but although some other airlines have
> tried to copy them, they have so far not been nearly as successful.
>
> I wonder if business travelers should bother with the airlines at all
> anymore.
>
>

[C J Campbell]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C J Campbell" wrote:
> > I wonder if business travelers should bother with the airlines at all
> > anymore.
>
> ??
>
> What's the alternative for most of them? High-power bigwigs who can
> justify charter or private jet travel are a small fraction of business
> travelers.

The vast majority of corporate level flying is now done by middle level
managers. Corporate aviation is very competitive with the airlines when you
consider the cost of transporting a workgroup to and from a distant airport,
getting them through security, arranging their schedule around that of the
airline, and possibly putting them up for a day or two instead of having
them return right away.

What if, for example, Microsoft wants to send a team from Redmond to Intel
in Hillsboro? They could drive, which takes about six hours each way. They
could take Horizon, showing up two hours early for the flight, etc., again
taking about six hours each way. Or they could charter a King Air and have
everybody down there in an hour and back that afternoon for less than the
cost of the air fare. Hmmm. What to do? What to do?

[Stefan]

C J Campbell wrote:

> What if, for example, Microsoft wants to send a team from Redmond to Intel
....
> cost of the air fare. Hmmm. What to do? What to do?

Buy a Macintosh? :-P

Stefan

[Stefan]

C J Campbell wrote:

> What if, for example, Microsoft wants to send a team from Redmond to Intel
....
> Hmmm. What to do? What to do?

Buy a Macintosh? :-P

Stefan

[Matt Barrow]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> The vast majority of corporate level flying is now done by middle level
> managers. Corporate aviation is very competitive with the airlines when
you
> consider the cost of transporting a workgroup to and from a distant
airport,
> getting them through security, arranging their schedule around that of the
> airline, and possibly putting them up for a day or two instead of having
> them return right away.

I have four people working for me. None of them makes much over $150K a
year. But I have an aircraft (B36TC) and am contemplating getting another
(TurboProp) to run them around the midwest.

Here's why: When we go out to meet sub-xontractors, negotiate business,
inspection construction sites, insppect potential builinf sites, we can hit
two or three a day.

To cover that much territory I'd need to double my staff. That would cost
another $500K per year.

A B36TC and a turboprop are cheap by comparison.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[houstondan]

best i can tell, "airline" is a fairly accurate depiction of the joys
of airline travel complete with crowds of irritable (and irritating)
people mashed together in cattle-car fashion by irritating uniformed
minimum wage workers.

that's entertainment.

dan

[Marco Leon]

I thought the same thing about driving from NY to Virginia on biz. Then I
got caught in the Wash DC Beltway traffic... NYC traffic pales in
comparison. Next time I fly.

Marco Leon


"Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message:

> Can't blame them. After driving to the airport, getting there 2 hours
early
> for
> security, praying your flight leaves on time(or at all), it's easier to
> drive.
>
>
>
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> > "569" > wrote in message
> >> > oups.com...
> >> > > That airline is pure hell. I used to travel 250,000 miles a year
for
> >> > > business, all domestic. I refused and still refuse to fly them.
> >> > > It's
> >> > > no better then the Greyhound bus.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Well, you get what you pay for. That is the market that Southwest
> >> > caters
> >> to.
> >>
> >> Southwest flies more passengers by far than any other airline and is
one
> > of
> >> a few actually making money. If other airlines want to survive it is
the
> >> Southwest model they will have to adopt.
> >
> > Southwest is the most profitable, but although some other airlines have
> > tried to copy them, they have so far not been nearly as successful.
> >
> > I wonder if business travelers should bother with the airlines at all
> > anymore.
> >
> >
>
>

[Peter MacPherson]

True, but this is where flying yourself really pays off. NY - VA would
be a nice quick trip flying yourself. I have a friend in the Boston area
who flies to DC area every week. Before he bought his Bonanza he was
flying down there on the airlines. The flight on the airlines is only an
hour
to DC from Boston, but when he factored in the drive to the airport, getting
there early for security, etc.., he could get there faster in his own plane.
Now he drives 10 minutes from his house to the airport where the plane
is hangared, lands at JYO(Leesburg, VA) and grabs a rental car. To me this
is the perfect way to use GA for business travel. His company loves it
too....
they don't have to shell out $600 for the airline tickets. <g>



"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
...
>I thought the same thing about driving from NY to Virginia on biz. Then I
> got caught in the Wash DC Beltway traffic... NYC traffic pales in
> comparison. Next time I fly.
>
> Marco Leon
>
>
> "Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message:
>
>> Can't blame them. After driving to the airport, getting there 2 hours
> early
>> for
>> security, praying your flight leaves on time(or at all), it's easier to
>> drive.
>>
>>
>>
>> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >>
>> >> "C J Campbell" > wrote in
>> >> message
>> >> ...
>> >> >
>> >> > "569" > wrote in message
>> >> > oups.com...
>> >> > > That airline is pure hell. I used to travel 250,000 miles a year
> for
>> >> > > business, all domestic. I refused and still refuse to fly them.
>> >> > > It's
>> >> > > no better then the Greyhound bus.
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> > Well, you get what you pay for. That is the market that Southwest
>> >> > caters
>> >> to.
>> >>
>> >> Southwest flies more passengers by far than any other airline and is
> one
>> > of
>> >> a few actually making money. If other airlines want to survive it is
> the
>> >> Southwest model they will have to adopt.
>> >
>> > Southwest is the most profitable, but although some other airlines have
>> > tried to copy them, they have so far not been nearly as successful.
>> >
>> > I wonder if business travelers should bother with the airlines at all
>> > anymore.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Dan Luke wrote:
> "C J Campbell" wrote:
> > I wonder if business travelers should bother with the airlines at
all
> > anymore.
>
> ??
>
> What's the alternative for most of them?
<snip>

A lot of them are reevaluating the need to travel at all. In the IT
world, audio/video conferencing and remote access has become an
attractive alternative to travelling in the TSA controlled, commercial
airline environment. It has become such a hassle, that it is no longer
convenient or cost effective.

I'm not surprised at the number of airlines that are in or facing
bankruptcy these days. Their product has changed from something that
was a convenient way to generate business in remote locations, to
something that is dreaded and considered a last resort.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Dan Luke]

"C J Campbell" wrote:
> > "C J Campbell" wrote:
> > > I wonder if business travelers should bother with the airlines at all
> > > anymore.
> >
> > ??
> >
> > What's the alternative for most of them? High-power bigwigs who can
> > justify charter or private jet travel are a small fraction of business
> > travelers.
>
> The vast majority of corporate level flying is now done by middle level
> managers.

How do you know? (I withdraw my statement that high-power bigwigs who can
justify charter or private jet travel are a small fraction of business
travelers, since I based it on my own anecdotal observations). Even if this
is so, how frequently does the average MLM traveler fly?

> Corporate aviation is very competitive with the airlines when you
> consider the cost of transporting a workgroup

But how many business travelers are parts of workgroups? How many are single
travelers? It's true that GA is skimming off a lot of business class
travelers from the airlines, but how many are left that could economically go
GA? Your statement seemed to include them all.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
...
>
> Southwest flies more passengers by far than any other airline

Actually SWA has only become a top-5 player in the past five years or so.
Last I checked, DL, SW, and AA were all pretty close to each other.

http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2004/bts019_04/html/bts019_04.html

> and is one of
> a few actually making money. If other airlines want to survive it is the
> Southwest model they will have to adopt.
>

Southwest does not operate a national network, but rather flies a large
number of point-to-point flights. The difference is subtle but significant.
SW is fine if you're going from Manchester to Midway, but if you're trying
to get to Boise it doesn't necessarily work so well and connection times
often run over two hours versus 60mins on a hub-and-spoke carrier. As
Southwest has gotten bigger and served more cities with higher frequency
this has become less of a problem, but their model has its limits. They
intentionally avoid most large airports (BOS, ORD, JFK, LGA, EWK, SFO) as
well.

-cwk.

[G.R. Patterson III]

C J Campbell wrote:
>
> I wonder if business travelers should bother with the airlines at all
> anymore.

A few years ago, my job took me to Atlanta frequently, so we'll take that as an
example. A flight from Newark to Atlanta takes about 4.5 hours from my door to
the hotel near BellSouth headquarters (flight time about 2 hours 15 minutes). If
I were stupid enough to drive it, we're talking about 18 hours at 5-10 mph over
the speed limit. Even that would beat Amtrak.

And "conference calls" will not do the job in many cases. We would've lost a 50
mil contract if I couldn't have been face to face with the subject matter
experts on one occasion (our competition *was* face to face with them).

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Dan Luke wrote:
>
> Even if this
> is so, how frequently does the average MLM traveler fly?

At my former employer, most of them flew somewhere about twice a year. Then
there's a person for whom I used to work who flies to Birmingham every week. At
that, it's cheaper than moving her there (if she'd even agree to move).

> But how many business travelers are parts of workgroups? How many are single
> travelers?

The vast majority of ours were single travelers. At times we might send as many
as three people down, but that was rare.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Bob Noel]

In article <xfgAd.716149$mD.426940@attbi_s02>,
"Peter MacPherson" > wrote:

> is the perfect way to use GA for business travel. His company loves it
> too....
> they don't have to shell out $600 for the airline tickets. <g>

the shuttle from KBOS to KDCA is substantially less than that.
Last I time I took the shuttle, it was $341.50.

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[Ditch]

>The vast majority of corporate level flying is now done by middle level
>managers.

Well...I guess. My mother-in-law is a vice pres (one of many) at the largest
bank in the country....they stick her on airline flights left and right.
It used to be that she flew in G-IV, but that ended about 7 years ago. The only
people that see the inside of a corp. jet are the CEO and his cronies.


-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

[Marco Leon]

I know--it's perfect. My company has a little clause in their travel policy
about using private aircraft for business only when another commercial pilot
is flying. It obviously was not written by a pilot! I'll just have to claim
regular automobile mileage reimbursement instead of listing aircraft-related
expenses. They shouldn't care how I get there. I couldn't do it last time
because my family came down and visited relatives in VA therefore needing a
car to get back to NY earlier than me.

My trip should be a little longer in my Warrior than your friend's
Bonanza...but who cares!

Marco Leon

"Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message
news:xfgAd.716149$mD.426940@attbi_s02...
> True, but this is where flying yourself really pays off. NY - VA would
> be a nice quick trip flying yourself. I have a friend in the Boston area
> who flies to DC area every week. Before he bought his Bonanza he was
> flying down there on the airlines. The flight on the airlines is only an
> hour
> to DC from Boston, but when he factored in the drive to the airport,
> getting
> there early for security, etc.., he could get there faster in his own
> plane.
> Now he drives 10 minutes from his house to the airport where the plane
> is hangared, lands at JYO(Leesburg, VA) and grabs a rental car. To me this
> is the perfect way to use GA for business travel. His company loves it
> too....
> they don't have to shell out $600 for the airline tickets. <g>
>
>
>
> "Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
> ...
>>I thought the same thing about driving from NY to Virginia on biz. Then I
>> got caught in the Wash DC Beltway traffic... NYC traffic pales in
>> comparison. Next time I fly.
>>
>> Marco Leon
>>
>>
>> "Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message:
>>
>>> Can't blame them. After driving to the airport, getting there 2 hours
>> early
>>> for
>>> security, praying your flight leaves on time(or at all), it's easier to
>>> drive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> >
>>> > "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
>>> > ...
>>> >>
>>> >> "C J Campbell" > wrote in
>>> >> message
>>> >> ...
>>> >> >
>>> >> > "569" > wrote in message
>>> >> > oups.com...
>>> >> > > That airline is pure hell. I used to travel 250,000 miles a year
>> for
>>> >> > > business, all domestic. I refused and still refuse to fly them.
>>> >> > > It's
>>> >> > > no better then the Greyhound bus.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Well, you get what you pay for. That is the market that Southwest
>>> >> > caters
>>> >> to.
>>> >>
>>> >> Southwest flies more passengers by far than any other airline and is
>> one
>>> > of
>>> >> a few actually making money. If other airlines want to survive it is
>> the
>>> >> Southwest model they will have to adopt.
>>> >
>>> > Southwest is the most profitable, but although some other airlines
>>> > have
>>> > tried to copy them, they have so far not been nearly as successful.
>>> >
>>> > I wonder if business travelers should bother with the airlines at all
>>> > anymore.
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Dan Luke]

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:
>> Even if this
>> is so, how frequently does the average MLM traveler fly?
>
> At my former employer, most of them flew somewhere about twice a year.
> Then
> there's a person for whom I used to work who flies to Birmingham every
> week. At
> that, it's cheaper than moving her there (if she'd even agree to
> move).
>
>> But how many business travelers are parts of workgroups? How many
>> are single
>> travelers?
>
> The vast majority of ours were single travelers. At times we might
> send as many
> as three people down, but that was rare.

That matches my experience when I worked for a large corporation: 3-5
flights/year for most middle managers.

At [Big Company] we peons took the cattle cars and the bigwigs took the
Gulfstreams and King Airs. The top brass used the corporate fleet to
haul their families around also; the planes were a perq.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Gig Giacona]

I don't know who you work for or what you do but there are several workers'
compensation carriers that flatly refuse to cover companies that allow use
of GA aircraft for business travel.


"Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote in message
...
>I know--it's perfect. My company has a little clause in their travel policy
>about using private aircraft for business only when another commercial
>pilot is flying. It obviously was not written by a pilot! I'll just have to
>claim regular automobile mileage reimbursement instead of listing
>aircraft-related expenses. They shouldn't care how I get there. I couldn't
>do it last time because my family came down and visited relatives in VA
>therefore needing a car to get back to NY earlier than me.
>
> My trip should be a little longer in my Warrior than your friend's
> Bonanza...but who cares!
>
> Marco Leon
>
> "Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message
> news:xfgAd.716149$mD.426940@attbi_s02...
>> True, but this is where flying yourself really pays off. NY - VA would
>> be a nice quick trip flying yourself. I have a friend in the Boston area
>> who flies to DC area every week. Before he bought his Bonanza he was
>> flying down there on the airlines. The flight on the airlines is only an
>> hour
>> to DC from Boston, but when he factored in the drive to the airport,
>> getting
>> there early for security, etc.., he could get there faster in his own
>> plane.
>> Now he drives 10 minutes from his house to the airport where the plane
>> is hangared, lands at JYO(Leesburg, VA) and grabs a rental car. To me
>> this
>> is the perfect way to use GA for business travel. His company loves it
>> too....
>> they don't have to shell out $600 for the airline tickets. <g>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> ...
>>>I thought the same thing about driving from NY to Virginia on biz. Then I
>>> got caught in the Wash DC Beltway traffic... NYC traffic pales in
>>> comparison. Next time I fly.
>>>
>>> Marco Leon
>>>
>>>
>>> "Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message:
>>>
>>>> Can't blame them. After driving to the airport, getting there 2 hours
>>> early
>>>> for
>>>> security, praying your flight leaves on time(or at all), it's easier to
>>>> drive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>> >
>>>> > "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
>>>> > ...
>>>> >>
>>>> >> "C J Campbell" > wrote in
>>>> >> message
>>>> >> ...
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > "569" > wrote in message
>>>> >> > oups.com...
>>>> >> > > That airline is pure hell. I used to travel 250,000 miles a
>>>> >> > > year
>>> for
>>>> >> > > business, all domestic. I refused and still refuse to fly them.
>>>> >> > > It's
>>>> >> > > no better then the Greyhound bus.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Well, you get what you pay for. That is the market that Southwest
>>>> >> > caters
>>>> >> to.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Southwest flies more passengers by far than any other airline and is
>>> one
>>>> > of
>>>> >> a few actually making money. If other airlines want to survive it
>>>> >> is
>>> the
>>>> >> Southwest model they will have to adopt.
>>>> >
>>>> > Southwest is the most profitable, but although some other airlines
>>>> > have
>>>> > tried to copy them, they have so far not been nearly as successful.
>>>> >
>>>> > I wonder if business travelers should bother with the airlines at all
>>>> > anymore.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Marco Leon wrote:
>
> I know--it's perfect. My company has a little clause in their travel policy
> about using private aircraft for business only when another commercial pilot
> is flying. It obviously was not written by a pilot! I'll just have to claim
> regular automobile mileage reimbursement instead of listing aircraft-related
> expenses. They shouldn't care how I get there.

My former employer would fire you for that behavior. Their policy is that they
will not reimburse you for travel by private aircraft. If you claim to have
driven and didn't, that's fraud.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Peter MacPherson]

Not sure why the difference. Maybe his company buys the more expensive
open ended tickets where there is no charge for changing your travel
dates/time.
I worked for a company that did this all the time. They would pay 2-3 times
more
for the ticket than it would cost if it were bought with restrictions. The
silly part was
my itinerary was pretty much set in stone, so I didn't need the more
expensive ticket
with more flexibility(and cost). But that was their policy and they weren't
changing it.



"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article <xfgAd.716149$mD.426940@attbi_s02>,
> "Peter MacPherson" > wrote:
>
>> is the perfect way to use GA for business travel. His company loves it
>> too....
>> they don't have to shell out $600 for the airline tickets. <g>
>
> the shuttle from KBOS to KDCA is substantially less than that.
> Last I time I took the shuttle, it was $341.50.
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[Peter MacPherson]

I've never heard of a company that wouldn't allow you to fly yourself.
That would drive me nuts.....being a pilot, having a plane and not being
able to fly myself and have to go the airline route.


"Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote in message
...
>I know--it's perfect. My company has a little clause in their travel policy
>about using private aircraft for business only when another commercial
>pilot is flying. It obviously was not written by a pilot! I'll just have to
>claim regular automobile mileage reimbursement instead of listing
>aircraft-related expenses. They shouldn't care how I get there. I couldn't
>do it last time because my family came down and visited relatives in VA
>therefore needing a car to get back to NY earlier than me.
>
> My trip should be a little longer in my Warrior than your friend's
> Bonanza...but who cares!
>
> Marco Leon
>
> "Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message
> news:xfgAd.716149$mD.426940@attbi_s02...
>> True, but this is where flying yourself really pays off. NY - VA would
>> be a nice quick trip flying yourself. I have a friend in the Boston area
>> who flies to DC area every week. Before he bought his Bonanza he was
>> flying down there on the airlines. The flight on the airlines is only an
>> hour
>> to DC from Boston, but when he factored in the drive to the airport,
>> getting
>> there early for security, etc.., he could get there faster in his own
>> plane.
>> Now he drives 10 minutes from his house to the airport where the plane
>> is hangared, lands at JYO(Leesburg, VA) and grabs a rental car. To me
>> this
>> is the perfect way to use GA for business travel. His company loves it
>> too....
>> they don't have to shell out $600 for the airline tickets. <g>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> ...
>>>I thought the same thing about driving from NY to Virginia on biz. Then I
>>> got caught in the Wash DC Beltway traffic... NYC traffic pales in
>>> comparison. Next time I fly.
>>>
>>> Marco Leon
>>>
>>>
>>> "Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message:
>>>
>>>> Can't blame them. After driving to the airport, getting there 2 hours
>>> early
>>>> for
>>>> security, praying your flight leaves on time(or at all), it's easier to
>>>> drive.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>> >
>>>> > "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
>>>> > ...
>>>> >>
>>>> >> "C J Campbell" > wrote in
>>>> >> message
>>>> >> ...
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > "569" > wrote in message
>>>> >> > oups.com...
>>>> >> > > That airline is pure hell. I used to travel 250,000 miles a
>>>> >> > > year
>>> for
>>>> >> > > business, all domestic. I refused and still refuse to fly them.
>>>> >> > > It's
>>>> >> > > no better then the Greyhound bus.
>>>> >> > >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Well, you get what you pay for. That is the market that Southwest
>>>> >> > caters
>>>> >> to.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Southwest flies more passengers by far than any other airline and is
>>> one
>>>> > of
>>>> >> a few actually making money. If other airlines want to survive it
>>>> >> is
>>> the
>>>> >> Southwest model they will have to adopt.
>>>> >
>>>> > Southwest is the most profitable, but although some other airlines
>>>> > have
>>>> > tried to copy them, they have so far not been nearly as successful.
>>>> >
>>>> > I wonder if business travelers should bother with the airlines at all
>>>> > anymore.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Peter MacPherson]

Even if the private aircraft is cheaper than the airlines? Was this put in
so
employees weren't chartering G-V's <g> and not really meant for personal
aircraft that could save them money?



"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Marco Leon wrote:
>>
>> I know--it's perfect. My company has a little clause in their travel
>> policy
>> about using private aircraft for business only when another commercial
>> pilot
>> is flying. It obviously was not written by a pilot! I'll just have to
>> claim
>> regular automobile mileage reimbursement instead of listing
>> aircraft-related
>> expenses. They shouldn't care how I get there.
>
> My former employer would fire you for that behavior. Their policy is that
> they
> will not reimburse you for travel by private aircraft. If you claim to
> have
> driven and didn't, that's fraud.
>
> George Patterson
> The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Peter MacPherson wrote:
>
> Even if the private aircraft is cheaper than the airlines? Was this put in
> so
> employees weren't chartering G-V's <g> and not really meant for personal
> aircraft that could save them money?

I don't know the reason for the policy. There was a rumour that it was reaction
to a guy who tried to write off his loaded expenses (hangar rent, annual
maintenance, etc.), but I suspect it was simply that they didn't want to
encourage business use of private aircraft for fear of liability issues. If they
had wanted to take steps against overcharging, they could simply have set limits
(such as allowing one to charge the auto mileage rate).

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Denny]

RE Airline... I have never seen the program... And, I rarely fly the
cattle carriers as we fly ourselves as much as possible.. A few years
ago we were forced to fly out of Detroit - North West - and of course
our plane had problems (dumping hydraulic fluid all over the ramp as I
watched from my window seat)... So, we were unloaded, run to another
gate, got boarded, Sat there for 20 minutes then everyone told to get
off as that pilot would go overtime if he flew it.. Sent to another
gate, long breathless run to find no airplane there... By this time
the crowd attacking the little girl at the counter was chanting for a
hanging... People were swearing at her (elegantly dressed lady with
more than my net worth in jewelery hanging on her, was cursing like an
iron worker)... I got in line to the counter... When I got up there I
leaned forward so the others couldn't hear and quietly told her that I
had no questions, but she looked like she needed a break... So, I stood
there and chatted about her kids, and her husband, the family's dog,
etc., for a good five minutes, then went and sat down... When they
finally found a crew to fly the stray airplane they had dredged up, the
girl at the counter went over to the big guy at the boarding ramp and
whispered to him... He came over and boarded us on the plane ahead of
everyone and had the stew bring us hot tea and sandwiches at no
charge... Those minimum wages workers are victims just as much as the
customers are...

Denny

[Bob Noel]

In article <cdAAd.279957$V41.146170@attbi_s52>,
"Peter MacPherson" > wrote:

> Not sure why the difference. Maybe his company buys the more expensive
> open ended tickets where there is no charge for changing your travel
> dates/time.

Mine were also refundable.

curious.

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[Bob Noel]

In article <SiAAd.39008$k25.3005@attbi_s53>,
"Peter MacPherson" > wrote:

> Even if the private aircraft is cheaper than the airlines?

A travel accounting person actually told me once that cheaper
was not a justification that the auditers would allow!

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[Peter MacPherson]

Yep, sounds like the company I used to work at.


"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article <SiAAd.39008$k25.3005@attbi_s53>,
> "Peter MacPherson" > wrote:
>
>> Even if the private aircraft is cheaper than the airlines?
>
> A travel accounting person actually told me once that cheaper
> was not a justification that the auditers would allow!
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[Peter MacPherson]

Not sure.


"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article <cdAAd.279957$V41.146170@attbi_s52>,
> "Peter MacPherson" > wrote:
>
>> Not sure why the difference. Maybe his company buys the more expensive
>> open ended tickets where there is no charge for changing your travel
>> dates/time.
>
> Mine were also refundable.
>
> curious.
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[[email protected]]

G.R. Patterson III wrote:
<snip>
> but I suspect it was simply that they didn't want to
> encourage business use of private aircraft for fear of liability
issues.

Give that man a cigar. That's the number one reason corporations
look down on the use of private aircraft for business travel. The
folks in the risk management department just tremble at the thought of
the liabilities that could be incurred if an employee crashed while on
the clock.

I'd love myself on company business, but I realize that flying my
plane poses a much greater risk to the company than going commercial.
For the company, it's just not worth the few dollars I'd save them
(unless I was insured for some ridiculously high amount).
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[zatatime]

On 29 Dec 2004 08:39:22 -0800, "Denny" > wrote:

>People were swearing at her (elegantly dressed lady with
>more than my net worth in jewelery hanging on her, was cursing like an
>iron worker)... I got in line to the counter... When I got up there I
>leaned forward so the others couldn't hear and quietly told her that I
>had no questions, but she looked like she needed a break... So, I stood
>there and chatted about her kids, and her husband, the family's dog,
>etc., for a good five minutes, then went and sat down...


Well done Denny.

z

[[email protected]]

wrote:
>
> I'd love myself on company business,...

Make that "I'd love to fly myself on company business"
Where's my coffee!

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Stefan]

Peter MacPherson wrote:

> I've never heard of a company that wouldn't allow you to fly yourself.
> That would drive me nuts.....being a pilot, having a plane and not being
> able to fly myself and have to go the airline route.

It may be an insurance and/or liability issue. I used to work for a
water research department. We were several SCUBA divers, some of us very
experienced, but we were not allowed to do the underwater part
ourselves, they rather hired professionals. Drove us nuts, too, but it
was an insurance issue.

Stefan

[Blueskies]

"569" > wrote in message oups.com...
> That airline is pure hell. I used to travel 250,000 miles a year for
> business, all domestic. I refused and still refuse to fly them. It's
> no better then the Greyhound bus.
>
>

Southwest leads the pack for good reason. I have not had a good experience on any of the 'majors' for a very long time,
but every time I fly Southwest, I have a great time - departures on time, friendly and motivated flight crews and gate
personnel, bags are there, airfare (about half?!?!), everything. I suppose it is a matter of expectations. If you pay
the really big bucks you can maybe get a good seat on a major, but they still will be late and loose your bags and the
crews are so de-motivated from all the false promises. I just wish Southwest was closer to us - I have to drive 2 1/2
hours just to catch a flight with them...

--
Dan D.
http://www.ameritech.net/users/ddevillers/start.html


..

[RST Engineering]

Just as an aside...

I was Pacific Southwest Airlines (PSA, the giant smile on the radome)
employee #521. Best college job a kid could have, four years with an
airline. Sold my car, used my savings bonds, bought all the stock I could
get my hands on at the employee sale the day before the stock went public.
Bought my first airplane AND house with the profits from that little deal.
(And that, boys and girls, is why RST Engineering's first product was called
the RST-521.)

Some years later at a banquet I happened to be sitting next to the Southwest
VP-Ops. We got to chatting and I found out that he had bagged a set of the
business documents when PSA went belly-up and sold out to US Air, who
promptly trashed the purchase. Seems that Southwest was built on the PSA
model, right down to the decision to have ONE airplane type in the fleet and
know that airplane inside and out.

Sure, PSA made a ton of money by putting butts in chairs; that's what paid
the kerosene bills. Sure, we packed the old Electras and 3-holers as tight
as we could, but we had fun doing it. We had stews (no, dammit, in the '60s
they were STEWARDESSES, not flight attendants) who would play guitar and
lead the whole danged airplane singing from SanFran to SanDiego, we had a
couple who were caricature artists, some who took on all comers in chess,
anything to have FUN flying.

Southwest still reminds me a lot of those days. If you don't like
cattle-call airlines, there are a lot of old stodgy companies still doing it
the old way. Reno Air (now gone), Southwest, a handful of other little
startups are doing it the way I think it should be done.

Jim





"Blueskies" > wrote in message
m...

> Southwest leads the pack for good reason. I have not had a good experience
> on any of the 'majors' for a very long time

[C Kingsbury]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> C J Campbell wrote:
> >
> > I wonder if business travelers should bother with the airlines at all
> > anymore.
>
> And "conference calls" will not do the job in many cases. We would've lost
a 50
> mil contract if I couldn't have been face to face with the subject matter
> experts on one occasion (our competition *was* face to face with them).

C-Calls are limited but with web-conferencing like WebEx the gap closes
meaningfully. No question that WebEx probably displaced 10-15% of my last
employer's travel budget. This is one of those "inflection point" issues.
Once people start assuming their competitors aren't getting on a plane they
won't get on one either. There will always be things that demand the
in-person presence but that list will shrink by 5% or so per year. A 35%
drop in business travel over the next five years is not out of the question
and would make 9/11 a footnote to the collapse of the airline industry.

-cwk.

[Dave Stadt]

"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > C J Campbell wrote:
> > >
> > > I wonder if business travelers should bother with the airlines at all
> > > anymore.
> >
> > And "conference calls" will not do the job in many cases. We would've
lost
> a 50
> > mil contract if I couldn't have been face to face with the subject
matter
> > experts on one occasion (our competition *was* face to face with them).
>
> C-Calls are limited but with web-conferencing like WebEx the gap closes
> meaningfully. No question that WebEx probably displaced 10-15% of my last
> employer's travel budget. This is one of those "inflection point" issues.
> Once people start assuming their competitors aren't getting on a plane
they
> won't get on one either. There will always be things that demand the
> in-person presence but that list will shrink by 5% or so per year. A 35%
> drop in business travel over the next five years is not out of the
question
> and would make 9/11 a footnote to the collapse of the airline industry.
>
> -cwk.


That loss in business travel is more than enough to put one or two majors
out of business. They have only themselves to blame due to the fact they
ripped and continue to rip off the business traveler which for years has
paid top dollar for a seat.

[[email protected]]

On 27 Dec 2004 18:20:33 -0800, "569" > wrote:

>That airline is pure hell. I used to travel 250,000 miles a year for
>business, all domestic. I refused and still refuse to fly them. It's
>no better then the Greyhound bus.

I have flown them several times. They are good at what they do, and I
try not to have any illusions about flying with them. I call them
"Cattlewest".

[Matt Barrow]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
m...
>
>
> That loss in business travel is more than enough to put one or two majors
> out of business. They have only themselves to blame due to the fact they
> ripped and continue to rip off the business traveler which for years has
> paid top dollar for a seat.

First, the "business traveler" typically fly's on one or two days
notice...that's why they spend more.

Second, alternatives have been available for years...and only very SLOWLY do
businesses adopt them.

Hell, years ago the bitch was the delays and rigid schedules of the
airlines. Many people used GA and charter, but I guess most businesses just
continued to gripe, just like they do about bad employees, foreign
competitors, regulation (that they often asked for), etc., etc.,...


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[C J Campbell]

"Ditch" > wrote in message
...
> >The vast majority of corporate level flying is now done by middle level
> >managers.
>
> Well...I guess. My mother-in-law is a vice pres (one of many) at the
largest
> bank in the country....they stick her on airline flights left and right.
> It used to be that she flew in G-IV, but that ended about 7 years ago. The
only
> people that see the inside of a corp. jet are the CEO and his cronies.

Outrageous misuse of a valuable business tool.

[C J Campbell]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> I'm not surprised at the number of airlines that are in or facing
> bankruptcy these days. Their product has changed from something that
> was a convenient way to generate business in remote locations, to
> something that is dreaded and considered a last resort.

That is really what it comes down to, isn't it?

[Dave Stadt]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> >
> > That loss in business travel is more than enough to put one or two
majors
> > out of business. They have only themselves to blame due to the fact
they
> > ripped and continue to rip off the business traveler which for years has
> > paid top dollar for a seat.
>
> First, the "business traveler" typically fly's on one or two days
> notice...that's why they spend more.

That makes absolutely no sense. The airlines have used it as an excuse to
rip off the business travler for years.

> Second, alternatives have been available for years...and only very SLOWLY
do
> businesses adopt them.

Yep. Most businesses have drastically cut airline travel and now airlines
can't make money even with every seat filled.

> Hell, years ago the bitch was the delays and rigid schedules of the
> airlines. Many people used GA and charter, but I guess most businesses
just
> continued to gripe, just like they do about bad employees, foreign
> competitors, regulation (that they often asked for), etc., etc.,...
> --
> Matt
> ---------------------
> Matthew W. Barrow
> Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> Montrose, CO

United Stews just voted in favor of a strike and are pushing for chaos
strikes. If it happens it will probably be the end of United.

[Matt Barrow]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > First, the "business traveler" typically fly's on one or two days
> > notice...that's why they spend more.
>
> That makes absolutely no sense. The airlines have used it as an excuse to
> rip off the business travler for years.

If everyone waited until the last 24-48 hours to book a reservation (due to
no cost difference) , imagine the chaos that would result. Hotels do it,
concerts do it. Why do you think that is?

>
> > Second, alternatives have been available for years...and only very
SLOWLY
> do
> > businesses adopt them.
>
> Yep. Most businesses have drastically cut airline travel and now airlines
> can't make money even with every seat filled.

True...and their costs keep going up, up, up, while competition (short
sighted) is pushing prices down, down, down.

People want Neiman-Marcus quality for a Wal-mart price.


> > Hell, years ago the bitch was the delays and rigid schedules of the
> > airlines. Many people used GA and charter, but I guess most businesses
> just
> > continued to gripe, just like they do about bad employees, foreign
> > competitors, regulation (that they often asked for), etc., etc.,...
> > --
>
> United Stews just voted in favor of a strike and are pushing for chaos
> strikes. If it happens it will probably be the end of United.

United was a pretty good airline many years ago...before the union got
ownership.

United's union is a laugh riot!!


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Newps]

Matt Barrow wrote:

>>
>>That makes absolutely no sense. The airlines have used it as an excuse to
>>rip off the business travler for years.
>
>
> If everyone waited until the last 24-48 hours to book a reservation (due to
> no cost difference) , imagine the chaos that would result.

Baloney. The cost should be cheaper the closer you get to takeoff.
Basic economic theory, supply and demand. You book early to nail down a
spot.


Hotels do it,
> concerts do it. Why do you think that is?

You can walk in to any half empty hotel at 10 pm and get a better rate
than the guy who booked his in advance.



>
> People want Neiman-Marcus quality for a Wal-mart price.

People simply want to be taken to where they want to go when the airline
says they'll go.


> United was a pretty good airline many years ago...before the union got
> ownership.
>
> United's union is a laugh riot!!

Yep, priced themselves right out of business.

[Dave Stadt]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >
> > "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > First, the "business traveler" typically fly's on one or two days
> > > notice...that's why they spend more.
> >
> > That makes absolutely no sense. The airlines have used it as an excuse
to
> > rip off the business travler for years.
>
> If everyone waited until the last 24-48 hours to book a reservation (due
to
> no cost difference) , imagine the chaos that would result. Hotels do it,
> concerts do it. Why do you think that is?

Not the concerts I go to. You walk up at the last minute and you get a
discounted ticket. I know of no hotels that discount for early
reservations. The airlines should sell open seats for less the closer it is
to departure. Any fare is better than an open seat. I have no idea what
chaos you are talking about or what would cause it. The admin involved is
the same if you reserve a year in advance or a half hour in advance.

> >
> > > Second, alternatives have been available for years...and only very
> SLOWLY
> > do
> > > businesses adopt them.
> >
> > Yep. Most businesses have drastically cut airline travel and now
airlines
> > can't make money even with every seat filled.
>
> True...and their costs keep going up, up, up, while competition (short
> sighted) is pushing prices down, down, down.
>
> People want Neiman-Marcus quality for a Wal-mart price.

No, people simply want what the airlines advertise but often do not deliver.
They are most accomplished at delivering excuses.

[Matt Barrow]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> > >
> > > "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > First, the "business traveler" typically fly's on one or two days
> > > > notice...that's why they spend more.
> > >
> > > That makes absolutely no sense. The airlines have used it as an
excuse
> to
> > > rip off the business travler for years.
> >
> > If everyone waited until the last 24-48 hours to book a reservation (due
> to
> > no cost difference) , imagine the chaos that would result. Hotels do it,
> > concerts do it. Why do you think that is?
>
> Not the concerts I go to.

You need to get out more.

> You walk up at the last minute and you get a
> discounted ticket.

Ever heard of "scalpers"?

> I know of no hotels that discount for early
> reservations.

Ever heard of "vacation packages"? Ever been to a hotel that was overbooked?

> The airlines should sell open seats for less the closer it is
> to departure.

They do...it's called "standby".

> Any fare is better than an open seat. I have no idea what
> chaos you are talking about or what would cause it.

Every one trying to book in the last day or so (not to mention that last few
hours) which would force them to turn many away.

> The admin involved is
> the same if you reserve a year in advance or a half hour in advance.

It's not based on "admin".

>
> > >
> > > > Second, alternatives have been available for years...and only very
> > SLOWLY
> > > do
> > > > businesses adopt them.
> > >
> > > Yep. Most businesses have drastically cut airline travel and now
> airlines
> > > can't make money even with every seat filled.
> >
> > True...and their costs keep going up, up, up, while competition (short
> > sighted) is pushing prices down, down, down.
> >
> > People want Neiman-Marcus quality for a Wal-mart price.
>
> No, people simply want what the airlines advertise but often do not
deliver.
> They are most accomplished at delivering excuses.

And what do they advertise that they don't deliver?

--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Rich Lemert]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
.. .
>>
>>>"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>First, the "business traveler" typically fly's on one or two days
>>>>notice...that's why they spend more.
>>>
>>>That makes absolutely no sense. The airlines have used it as an excuse
>
> to
>
>>>rip off the business travler for years.
>>
>>If everyone waited until the last 24-48 hours to book a reservation (due
>
> to
>
>>no cost difference) , imagine the chaos that would result. Hotels do it,
>>concerts do it. Why do you think that is?
>
>
> Not the concerts I go to. You walk up at the last minute and you get a
> discounted ticket. I know of no hotels that discount for early
> reservations. The airlines should sell open seats for less the closer it is
> to departure. Any fare is better than an open seat. I have no idea what
> chaos you are talking about or what would cause it. The admin involved is
> the same if you reserve a year in advance or a half hour in advance.

Much of the following is conjecture since I have never worked with/for
any airline or in any aviation position. However ...

Passengers booking their trips well in advance tend to be vacationers,
college students, and the like. They have more flexibility in setting
up their schedule, and they are willing to accept the loss of that
flexibility when they buy their ticket. In addition, they are turning
their assets (cash) over to the airline. In return for the passenger's
committing to a flight, and for the earlier access to the passenger's
money, the airline is willing to give the early bookers a discount.

The business travellor often has limited ability to schedule his
travel in advance, and few 'timely' alternatives to air travel. The
service has a high 'value' to the customer ("if I don't make it there
tomorrow, we lose this sale," etc.), and the airlines recognize this.
High demand equals high cost.

Once a flight departs, though, things change. Empty seats represent
lost revenue that can never be recovered. Airlines recognize this, and
have therefore established "stand-by" procedures. As a stand-by
passenger, you are accepting some of the airline's risk of an empty
seat. The airline "rewards" you by sharing some of the financial reward
for that flight with you.

If you check, you'll probably find that 'popular' flights that
usually operate at or near capacity don't often provide late discounts.
Flights with a large number of empty seats are more likely to do so, and
the likelihood increases as departure nears. The point at which this
occurs is up to each airline, and probably varies from flight to flight.

Rich Lemert

[Jose]

> The airlines should sell open seats for less the closer it is
> to departure. Any fare is better than an open seat.

Actually, they used to do that (it was called "standby"). But in any
case it only works "all things being equal". But all things are not
equal - most specifically, the existance of standby alters passenger
behavior, leading to fewer full fare bookings as passengers hope to
snag a standby fare. Profit goes down.

At least (I speculate) that's probably what happened, and probably why
airlines stopped the standby stuff.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.