More newbie Qs

[Ramapriya]

I wish you all a very cheery 2005. You really are a nice set of guys
here (those branding me a terrorist notwithstanding), mostly patient
even at clarifying elementary stuff :)

Some more Qs, if you don't mind.

1. How does a pilot get to know the distance to the airport that he has
to land in, so that he plans his descent accordingly, in planes that
don't have an onboard computer? Maps I know would give the distance
between two fixed points, but how does he keep track of distance
covered in flight and that sort of thing? To inquire ground stations
such info would be embarrassing, I guess :p

2. What exactly is a VOR? Sounds like it's a constant all-direction
radio transmission from a fixed point on the airport to help locate
where the airstrip is. If so, does it necessarily have to be from *a*
standard designated point in the airfield, right across all airfields
on earth?

3. If a pilot needs to land at an airport that doesn't have a control
tower, how does he figure its elevation so that he may plan his
descent?

4. When a pilot says, "Give me a vector", what does he actually mean?

5. When pilots use miles in conversations, does it mean the miles we
normally use, or is it always nautical miles?

6. The difference between airspeed and groundspeed is that airspeed is
the net of the plane's speed and opposing windspeed, while groundspeed
is just the plane's speed. Right?

7. What is "density altitude", and how to compute it? If I'm not wrong,
its use is to plan the length of takeoff roll and angle of climb.
Cheers,

Ramapriya

[Tobias Schnell]

On 30 Dec 2004 02:43:33 -0800, "Ramapriya" >
wrote:

>1. How does a pilot get to know the distance to the airport that he has
>to land in, so that he plans his descent accordingly, in planes that
>don't have an onboard computer? Maps I know would give the distance
>between two fixed points, but how does he keep track of distance
>covered in flight and that sort of thing? To inquire ground stations
>such info would be embarrassing, I guess :p

What do you mean by "onboard computer"? Most airplanes nowadays (even
small single-engine-ones) have GPS receivers, for which the easiest
task is "tell me the distance to airport XYZ". Modern airliners are
equipped with flight management systems. These derive information
about the airplane's position from various sources (ground-based
navaids, inertia, GPS...), so no problem there, too.

If you don't have all those toys, it is likely that you have at least
a VOR receiver (see below), an ADF or a DME. With those you can also
calculate distances to a fix, but that may require some mental math to
be done.

Airplanes without any onboard electronics are normally flown day-VFR
only, so distance calculation can be made by dead reckoning or
pilotage. But if you are unsure you can of course ask a radar
controller for assistance.

>2. What exactly is a VOR? Sounds like it's a constant all-direction
>radio transmission from a fixed point on the airport to help locate
>where the airstrip is. If so, does it necessarily have to be from *a*
>standard designated point in the airfield, right across all airfields
>on earth?

VORs are not necessarily located on airports. For technical details do
a google search, I am sue you will find better explanations than what
can be given here in text-only-mode.

Basically a VOR receiver in the airplane tells you the bearing from
the station to the airplane. Pilots are talking about so-called
"radials", e.g. if an airplane is on radial 270 of a VOR, its position
is due west of the VOR.

Most VORs are used for enroute navigation, but there are also
instrument approaches relying on VORs. But as VORs used for approaches
can be located anywhere on the field or even be off-airport, minimums
are usually higher than for an ILS approach.

>3. If a pilot needs to land at an airport that doesn't have a control
>tower, how does he figure its elevation so that he may plan his
>descent?

The elevation of an airport is published. And even non-attended
filelds often have automatic weather reporting that provides an
altimeter setting. If not, you can use the altimeter seting from a
nearby airport which is nomally not too far off.

>4. When a pilot says, "Give me a vector", what does he actually mean?

He requests heading instructions from a radar controller, for example
to intercept an ILS or to an airport.

>5. When pilots use miles in conversations, does it mean the miles we
>normally use, or is it always nautical miles?

Pilots are using nautical miles.

>6. The difference between airspeed and groundspeed is that airspeed is
>the net of the plane's speed and opposing windspeed, while groundspeed
>is just the plane's speed. Right?

If a plane would fly at sea level with an airspeed of 100 kts and
there was a headwind of, let's say 50 kts, its groundspeed would be 50
kts. With calm winds, the groundspeed would also be 100 kts.

When flying higher, air- and groundspeed differ even with no wind, as
the air becomes less dense with altitude, so indicated airspeed
decreases.

Look for "indicated" and "true" airspeed in the books you should have
bought by now ;-).

>7. What is "density altitude", and how to compute it? If I'm not wrong,
>its use is to plan the length of takeoff roll and angle of climb.

Uh, I'll leave that to someone else now...

Regards
Tobias

[Stealth Pilot]

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 12:53:14 +0100, Tobias Schnell >
wrote:


>
>>7. What is "density altitude", and how to compute it? If I'm not wrong,
>>its use is to plan the length of takeoff roll and angle of climb.
>
>Uh, I'll leave that to someone else now.

set the altimeter subscale to 1013millibars and read off the apparent
height.

it is not used to *plan* the length of the takeoff roll. you takeoff
in whatever distance the aircraft takes to accelerate to a speed
generating adequate lift.
similarly you cant *plan* the angle of climb. you take what you get.

what you get can be predicted. ask your flying instructor.

[kontiki]

Stealth Pilot wrote:

>> set the altimeter subscale to 1013millibars and read off the apparent
> height.

Actually, that is pressure altitude. Density altitude is pressure altitude
adjusted for non-standard temperature and pressure.
>
> it is not used to *plan* the length of the takeoff roll. you takeoff
> in whatever distance the aircraft takes to accelerate to a speed
> generating adequate lift.
> similarly you cant *plan* the angle of climb. you take what you get.
>
> what you get can be predicted. ask your flying instructor.

Density altitude is in fact used to figure the takeoff distance required
for a given aircraft at a given weight. When the density altitude is
high you need to carefully plan this out... even allowing for some
extra margin of safety. That's part of flight planning.

[Ramapriya]

kontiki wrote:
> Stealth Pilot wrote:
>
> >> set the altimeter subscale to 1013millibars and read off the
apparent
> > height.
>
> Actually, that is pressure altitude. Density altitude is pressure
altitude
> adjusted for non-standard temperature and pressure.
> >
> > it is not used to *plan* the length of the takeoff roll. you
takeoff
> > in whatever distance the aircraft takes to accelerate to a speed
> > generating adequate lift.
> > similarly you cant *plan* the angle of climb. you take what you
get.
> >
> > what you get can be predicted. ask your flying instructor.
>
> Density altitude is in fact used to figure the takeoff distance
required
> for a given aircraft at a given weight. When the density altitude is
> high you need to carefully plan this out... even allowing for some
> extra margin of safety. That's part of flight planning.

I haven't failed to notice that some of my threads have generated
confusion among contributors, with folks disagreeing with each other,
etc.

Is it because I'm unknowingly using terms that are nonstandard, being
not a mainstream aviator?

Ramapriya

[Brian]

Try the link below for a very simple Simulator of Aircraft Navigation
Instruments.
Even experienced pilots can learn a lot from this simulator.
http://www.vrotate.com/VOR/vor.html

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

[Brian]

Try the link below for a very simple Simulator of Aircraft Navigation
Instruments.
Even experienced pilots can learn a lot from this simulator.
http://www.vrotate.com/VOR/vor.html

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

[[email protected]]

When the density altitude is
high you need to carefully plan this out... even allowing for some
extra margin of safety. That's part of flight planning.

I have a simpler trick.
The longest takeoff distance in my POH mentioned is 350mtr (1150ft).
I multiplied this by 2(grass, upslope, etc.) , so anything longer than
700 mtr (2300 ft) is fine.
I know this number, only if I'm going to something shorter I calculate
the whole thing again.

Anyway,

Happy New Year to you all.
Kees

[Dudley Henriques]

"Ramapriya" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> kontiki wrote:
>> Stealth Pilot wrote:
>>
>> >> set the altimeter subscale to 1013millibars and read off the
> apparent
>> > height.
>>
>> Actually, that is pressure altitude. Density altitude is pressure
> altitude
>> adjusted for non-standard temperature and pressure.
>> >
>> > it is not used to *plan* the length of the takeoff roll. you
> takeoff
>> > in whatever distance the aircraft takes to accelerate to a speed
>> > generating adequate lift.
>> > similarly you cant *plan* the angle of climb. you take what you
> get.
>> >
>> > what you get can be predicted. ask your flying instructor.
>>
>> Density altitude is in fact used to figure the takeoff distance
> required
>> for a given aircraft at a given weight. When the density altitude is
>> high you need to carefully plan this out... even allowing for some
>> extra margin of safety. That's part of flight planning.
>
> I haven't failed to notice that some of my threads have generated
> confusion among contributors, with folks disagreeing with each other,
> etc.
>
> Is it because I'm unknowingly using terms that are nonstandard, being
> not a mainstream aviator?
>
> Ramapriya

I have a question for you, after watching these endless series of
questions, and it's not meant to be hostile in any way; just curious.

The questions you ask on these groups are quite complex, and require
substantial effort to answer by the returning posters. I can't speak for
the rest of the group, but I for one have avoided you because the
questions you are asking are readily available in books and manuals that
you can purchase easily if you take the time and effort to do so.
I have watched as people here have attempted to explain extremely
complicated theory and procedure for you that takes a great deal of
their time to do. Although you seem appreciative of this effort, I am
still left with the feeling that you should be learning these things
through your own effort, not ours! The reason I say this to you is that
I already know what you have noted in this last post, and that is one
reason I haven't taken part in your little learning venture. You are
getting differing opinion and that is quite natural on a newsgroup. Now
you are noting that differing opinion and actually asking people to
rectify it for you.
Don't you think it's time you did some learning on your own?
No offense meant, and for those who wish to deal with you on a daily
basis, I have no problem at all. I just won't offer my assistance to you
for the reasons I've given.
Best of luck
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for email; take out the trash

[Stealth Pilot]

On 30 Dec 2004 05:15:01 -0800, "Ramapriya" >
wrote:

>
>I haven't failed to notice that some of my threads have generated
>confusion among contributors, with folks disagreeing with each other,
>etc.
>
>Is it because I'm unknowingly using terms that are nonstandard, being
>not a mainstream aviator?
>
no, some of us learnt the stuff a while ago and apply it but dont go
over the basics often enough to not make mistakes when answering.

if you see someone correct a point unanswered then the correction was
probably correct. if you see a battle raging then either both are
incorrect but dont realise it or have misread what was posted and are
shooting blindly from the hip. it is usenet not a research facility
:-)

[Tobias Mock]

> 7. What is "density altitude", and how to compute it?

The best I've found about calculating it is here:

http://wahiduddin.net/calc/density_altitude.htm

The author's main interests seem to be "spiritual life" and
"density altitude". Haven't read the "spiritual life" part, but
the "density altitude" part is profound.

Tobias

[Terry]

Couldn't have said it better Dudley...

My personal opinion is "he" likes the attention from the newsgroup vets
rather than the information from those trying to help. Most questions are
easily answered on his own computer and using a search engine.

BTW Dudley, I have been flying for over 22 years now with over 1800
hours,
I still have many things to learn. I have learned from you and the others
in this
newsgroup.

Thank You for your contribution....

Terry
N6401F + Flightstar Ultralight


"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Ramapriya" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
> I have a question for you, after watching these endless series of
> questions, and it's not meant to be hostile in any way; just curious.
>
> snipped

> Don't you think it's time you did some learning on your own?
> No offense meant, and for those who wish to deal with you on a daily
> basis, I have no problem at all. I just won't offer my assistance to you
> for the reasons I've given.
> Best of luck
> Dudley Henriques
> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
> for email; take out the trash
>
>

[Dudley Henriques]

"Terry" > wrote in message
k.net...
> Couldn't have said it better Dudley...
>
> My personal opinion is "he" likes the attention from the newsgroup
> vets
> rather than the information from those trying to help. Most questions
> are
> easily answered on his own computer and using a search engine.
>
> BTW Dudley, I have been flying for over 22 years now with over 1800
> hours,
> I still have many things to learn. I have learned from you and the
> others in this
> newsgroup.
>
> Thank You for your contribution....
>
> Terry
> N6401F + Flightstar Ultralight

Thank you.
I've always told instructors I've trained that the two best learning
tools in aviation are the airplane and the student in that order. Each
one will teach you something every second you're exposed to them if
you're receptive to continuous learning. I'm still learning after fifty
years in aviation :-)
Dudley

[G.R. Patterson III]

Ramapriya wrote:
>
> 1. How does a pilot get to know the distance to the airport that he has
> to land in, so that he plans his descent accordingly, in planes that
> don't have an onboard computer?

If the aircraft has no electronic means of determining position, the pilot uses
"pilotage" to keep track of his location. Basically, the pilot notes things on
the chart close to his course that can be seen from the air; these are called
"waypoints". Once in the air, the speed over the ground can be determined by
timing how long it takes to fly between two of these waypoints. The pilot can
then figure out the point at which he wants to start the descent and how long it
will take to reach that point from the closest waypoint to it. Pass over that
waypoint and start your descent at the appropriate time.

> 2. What exactly is a VOR? Sounds like it's a constant all-direction
> radio transmission from a fixed point on the airport to help locate
> where the airstrip is.

Pretty much, except that VORs aren't always (or even usually) located at
airports. The transmitter broadcasts a signal that is modulated in such a way
that the receiver can tell in what direction the transmitter lies. The pilot can
then twist a dial to center a needle on an instrument called a "course deviation
indicator" and read off the direction.

> 3. If a pilot needs to land at an airport that doesn't have a control
> tower, how does he figure its elevation so that he may plan his
> descent?

The elevation is recorded on charts and in airport directories.

> 4. When a pilot says, "Give me a vector", what does he actually mean?

He's asking someone to tell him what heading to fly.

> 5. When pilots use miles in conversations, does it mean the miles we
> normally use, or is it always nautical miles?

In conversation with ATC, we use nautical miles.

> 6. The difference between airspeed and groundspeed is that airspeed is
> the net of the plane's speed and opposing windspeed, while groundspeed
> is just the plane's speed. Right?

Airspeed is the speed the aircraft is traveling through the air. Groundspeed is
the speed the aircraft is traveling over the ground. The speedometer in an
aircraft measures airspeed (with varying degrees of accuracy). This is called
"indicated airspeed". Pilots can correct this for inaccuracies to determine the
actual (or "true") airspeed. Let's say that I'm flying into a 20 knot wind and
my airspeed indicator shows I'm going 100 knots and it's accurate. My
groundspeed will be 80 knots. If I then turn around and go the other way, my
groundspeed will be 120 knots, but my airspeed will not change.

> 7. What is "density altitude", and how to compute it? If I'm not wrong,
> its use is to plan the length of takeoff roll and angle of climb.

It's a measure of air density and, yes, we use it to calculate the effects of
atmosperic conditions on the performance of the plane. Low pressure, high
temperature, and high humidity all reduce air density and reduce performance. An
airport may be at 90' ASL, but the plane performs as if the airport were at
3,000' ASL if the density altitude is 3,000' (as it may be in high summer).
Usually charts or calculators are used to determine density altitude. I get the
current figures as part of weather briefings.

First, set the altimeter to 29.92 Hg and read the altitude. This is called the
"pressure altitude" and will frequently be different from the actual elevation
of the airport. Then I would use a graph from my pilot's manual to determine the
density altitude for that pressure altitude and the current temperature. It's 7
degrees C at the moment and I am close to sea level. From my graph, that
temperature at that level reduces density altitude by about 800', so an aircraft
will perform better than usual. If the temperature were 30 degrees C, the
density altitude at sea level would be about 2,000' when the air pressure is
29.92 Hg.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Ramapriya wrote:
>
> Is it because I'm unknowingly using terms that are nonstandard, being
> not a mainstream aviator?

Not in this post, at least.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Peter Duniho]

"Ramapriya" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I haven't failed to notice that some of my threads have generated
> confusion among contributors, with folks disagreeing with each other,
> etc.
>
> Is it because I'm unknowingly using terms that are nonstandard, being
> not a mainstream aviator?

No, not always. Most recently anyway, it's simply due to incorrect answers
being given initially (and then subsequently as well).

To reiterate a previous reply: you are asking these questions on Usenet.
Not everyone answering is necessarily qualified to answer. Regardless of
the outcome, you should be VERY wary of believing without question answers
you receive here.

I agree that in general, when a correction doesn't degenerate into a long
debate, probably the correction was correct (and the original answer
incorrect, of course). But even that's not 100% reliable.

If you want to know the absolutely most accurate answers to your questions,
you need to do the work to study the material yourself. If you get a kick
out of the immediacy of the Internet and dozens of people stumbling over
themselves to be the first to respond to your pop quizzes, and don't mind
not knowing whether an answer you receive is actually correct, then right
here on Usenet is the place to be. :)

Pete

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> When the density altitude is
> high you need to carefully plan this out... even allowing for some
> extra margin of safety. That's part of flight planning.
>
> I have a simpler trick.
> The longest takeoff distance in my POH mentioned is 350mtr (1150ft).
> I multiplied this by 2(grass, upslope, etc.) , so anything longer
than
> 700 mtr (2300 ft) is fine.
> I know this number, only if I'm going to something shorter I
calculate
> the whole thing again.
>

That may work well if you only fly out of lower elevations, but go
back and look at your first sentence. When density altitude is high,
you need to CAREFULLY plan this out. The simple trick that you
mentioned in your post has resulted in many flatland pilots getting
killed while operating out of high mountain airports in the summer.

To illustrate this, one of my primary instructors had me plan some
flights out of high mountain airports on a hot summer day. In several
cases, the density altitude was slightly higher than the plane's
service ceiling and the takeoff distance exceeded the (apparently) long
runway length.

It's possible that your particular plane could get out of any 2,300
ft. field at any density altitude, but that rule of thumb will not work
with many planes.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[BTIZ]

Man.. just sign up for and take a ground school..

Ground school by Newsgroup or Usenet is getting old..

BT

"Ramapriya" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I wish you all a very cheery 2005. You really are a nice set of guys
> here (those branding me a terrorist notwithstanding), mostly patient
> even at clarifying elementary stuff :)
>
> Some more Qs, if you don't mind.
>
> 1. How does a pilot get to know the distance to the airport that he has
> to land in, so that he plans his descent accordingly, in planes that
> don't have an onboard computer? Maps I know would give the distance
> between two fixed points, but how does he keep track of distance
> covered in flight and that sort of thing? To inquire ground stations
> such info would be embarrassing, I guess :p
>
> 2. What exactly is a VOR? Sounds like it's a constant all-direction
> radio transmission from a fixed point on the airport to help locate
> where the airstrip is. If so, does it necessarily have to be from *a*
> standard designated point in the airfield, right across all airfields
> on earth?
>
> 3. If a pilot needs to land at an airport that doesn't have a control
> tower, how does he figure its elevation so that he may plan his
> descent?
>
> 4. When a pilot says, "Give me a vector", what does he actually mean?
>
> 5. When pilots use miles in conversations, does it mean the miles we
> normally use, or is it always nautical miles?
>
> 6. The difference between airspeed and groundspeed is that airspeed is
> the net of the plane's speed and opposing windspeed, while groundspeed
> is just the plane's speed. Right?
>
> 7. What is "density altitude", and how to compute it? If I'm not wrong,
> its use is to plan the length of takeoff roll and angle of climb.
> Cheers,
>
> Ramapriya
>
>

[BTIZ]

"Ramapriya" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I wish you all a very cheery 2005. You really are a nice set of guys
> here (those branding me a terrorist notwithstanding), mostly patient
> even at clarifying elementary stuff :)
>
> Some more Qs, if you don't mind.
>
> 1. How does a pilot get to know the distance to the airport that he has
> to land in, so that he plans his descent accordingly, in planes that
> don't have an onboard computer? Maps I know would give the distance
> between two fixed points, but how does he keep track of distance
> covered in flight and that sort of thing? To inquire ground stations
> such info would be embarrassing, I guess :p

It's called pilotage, you always know where you are.

>
> 2. What exactly is a VOR? Sounds like it's a constant all-direction
> radio transmission from a fixed point on the airport to help locate
> where the airstrip is. If so, does it necessarily have to be from *a*
> standard designated point in the airfield, right across all airfields
> on earth?
>

not on all airfields and not always at airfields..

> 3. If a pilot needs to land at an airport that doesn't have a control
> tower, how does he figure its elevation so that he may plan his
> descent?
>
he looks up the airport information before he starts out, the control tower
is not going to tell you the airfield elevation unless you ask, and then it
just shows that you did not do your preflight planning., very unprofessional

> 4. When a pilot says, "Give me a vector", what does he actually mean?
>
he needs a heading to fly to get somewhere, normally to get started while he
sorts it out in the cockpit, or the navigational aid he is heading to is to
far away to recieve

> 5. When pilots use miles in conversations, does it mean the miles we
> normally use, or is it always nautical miles?
>
professional pilots use nautical, it is one arc minute of latitude on the
navigational charts

> 6. The difference between airspeed and groundspeed is that airspeed is
> the net of the plane's speed and opposing windspeed, while groundspeed
> is just the plane's speed. Right?

you got that backwards, ground speed is the net of airspeed and wind
effect..
airspeed is the speed of the aircraft through the air mass, regardless of
how the airmass is moving in respect to terra firma

> 7. What is "density altitude", and how to compute it? If I'm not wrong,
> its use is to plan the length of takeoff roll and angle of climb.

there you are correct, density altitude will affect engine, propellor and
wing performance.
it is the air at elevation, normally measured by pressure and affected by
temperature.

high hot and humid is a bad combo

> Cheers,
>
> Ramapriya
>
>

[ohfuk24]

These are questions that EVERY student pilot has. Hence the reason that you
are a student pilot. You need to talk face to face with an instructor
and/or take a ground school at your local FBO. ALL of your questions will
be answered, as well many other things.

It is ridiculous to think that you can try to get your groundschool
knowledge and studying done by writing to a usenet group. It doesn't matter
how qualified the respondants are, you are wasting your time. You are not
gonna get any sign offs for this studying, if you wanna call it that. Take
the ground school and start flying. Get off your bum and make it happen.
The world will open up and the sun will shine so much brighter on your
knowledge level and you won't be wasting everyone else's time either. By
the way, everything that you don't understand on the ground will be a whole
lot clearer when you are in the air seeing how it works first hand.





"Tobias Schnell" > wrote in message
...
> On 30 Dec 2004 02:43:33 -0800, "Ramapriya" >
> wrote:
>
>>1. How does a pilot get to know the distance to the airport that he has
>>to land in, so that he plans his descent accordingly, in planes that
>>don't have an onboard computer? Maps I know would give the distance
>>between two fixed points, but how does he keep track of distance
>>covered in flight and that sort of thing? To inquire ground stations
>>such info would be embarrassing, I guess :p
>
> What do you mean by "onboard computer"? Most airplanes nowadays (even
> small single-engine-ones) have GPS receivers, for which the easiest
> task is "tell me the distance to airport XYZ". Modern airliners are
> equipped with flight management systems. These derive information
> about the airplane's position from various sources (ground-based
> navaids, inertia, GPS...), so no problem there, too.
>
> If you don't have all those toys, it is likely that you have at least
> a VOR receiver (see below), an ADF or a DME. With those you can also
> calculate distances to a fix, but that may require some mental math to
> be done.
>
> Airplanes without any onboard electronics are normally flown day-VFR
> only, so distance calculation can be made by dead reckoning or
> pilotage. But if you are unsure you can of course ask a radar
> controller for assistance.
>
>>2. What exactly is a VOR? Sounds like it's a constant all-direction
>>radio transmission from a fixed point on the airport to help locate
>>where the airstrip is. If so, does it necessarily have to be from *a*
>>standard designated point in the airfield, right across all airfields
>>on earth?
>
> VORs are not necessarily located on airports. For technical details do
> a google search, I am sue you will find better explanations than what
> can be given here in text-only-mode.
>
> Basically a VOR receiver in the airplane tells you the bearing from
> the station to the airplane. Pilots are talking about so-called
> "radials", e.g. if an airplane is on radial 270 of a VOR, its position
> is due west of the VOR.
>
> Most VORs are used for enroute navigation, but there are also
> instrument approaches relying on VORs. But as VORs used for approaches
> can be located anywhere on the field or even be off-airport, minimums
> are usually higher than for an ILS approach.
>
>>3. If a pilot needs to land at an airport that doesn't have a control
>>tower, how does he figure its elevation so that he may plan his
>>descent?
>
> The elevation of an airport is published. And even non-attended
> filelds often have automatic weather reporting that provides an
> altimeter setting. If not, you can use the altimeter seting from a
> nearby airport which is nomally not too far off.
>
>>4. When a pilot says, "Give me a vector", what does he actually mean?
>
> He requests heading instructions from a radar controller, for example
> to intercept an ILS or to an airport.
>
>>5. When pilots use miles in conversations, does it mean the miles we
>>normally use, or is it always nautical miles?
>
> Pilots are using nautical miles.
>
>>6. The difference between airspeed and groundspeed is that airspeed is
>>the net of the plane's speed and opposing windspeed, while groundspeed
>>is just the plane's speed. Right?
>
> If a plane would fly at sea level with an airspeed of 100 kts and
> there was a headwind of, let's say 50 kts, its groundspeed would be 50
> kts. With calm winds, the groundspeed would also be 100 kts.
>
> When flying higher, air- and groundspeed differ even with no wind, as
> the air becomes less dense with altitude, so indicated airspeed
> decreases.
>
> Look for "indicated" and "true" airspeed in the books you should have
> bought by now ;-).
>
>>7. What is "density altitude", and how to compute it? If I'm not wrong,
>>its use is to plan the length of takeoff roll and angle of climb.
>
> Uh, I'll leave that to someone else now...
>
> Regards
> Tobias
>

[Bob Moore]

"ohfuk24" > wrote

> These are questions that EVERY student pilot has. Hence the reason
> that you are a student pilot. You need to talk face to face with an
> instructor and/or take a ground school at your local FBO. ALL of your
> questions will be answered, as well many other things.

Going back to Ramapriya's first posts, I don't recall him ever stating
that he is/was a student pilot or has any intention of becoming one.
His questions arise from a trip during which he rode in the cockpit of
an Airbus jetliner and overhearing the conversations between the pilots.

> It is ridiculous to think that you can try to get your groundschool
> knowledge and studying done by writing to a usenet group.

Again, (I might be wrong) I don't think that groundschool is his goal.
As a retired airline pilot, I understand where his questions are coming
from. Many of those responding to his questions do so from a Private
Pilot perspective, not understanding that his line of questioning began
with jet Transport Category aircraft... thus many answers that he finds
to be in conflict.

Out of curiosity, I had just as many questions after my first trip to
the cockpit of a Piedmont DC-3 back in 1955. I had no intention of ever
becoming a pilot. Now, after 25 years of airline flying, I'm glad to
answer some of Ramapriya's questions from the Jet Transport perspective
where his series of questions started.

> and you won't be wasting everyone else's time either.

Speak for yourself, not everyone else.

"Ramapriya" > wrote
>>>1. How does a pilot get to know the distance to the airport that he
>>>has to land in, so that he plans his descent accordingly,

Three miles out for every thousand feet of altitude works
quite well for most jetliners.

Bob Moore
CFI ATP B-707 B-727
PanAM (retired)

[Christopher Brian Colohan]

"Ramapriya" > writes:

> I wish you all a very cheery 2005. You really are a nice set of guys
> here (those branding me a terrorist notwithstanding), mostly patient
> even at clarifying elementary stuff :)
>
> Some more Qs, if you don't mind.

This is not technically an answer to your questions, but I may be able
to answer all of them at once. :-) Go look on ebay.com for some books
on flying. People who have finsihed their training are selling them
all the time for dirt cheap prices. I managed to pick up an outdated
copy of the Jeppesen Private Pilot textbook for $5. This book would
answer every one of your questions, and more, with much more detail
and better pictures than you are likely to find on this newsgroup or
on the web.

You probably don't want an outdated textbook to work from if you are
currently studying for a license, but if you are merely curious, want
more information for playing with flight simulators, or may be
studying flying at some undetermined point in the future when you have
more cash (like me) then it is perfect.

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751

[Ron Garret]

In article . com>,
"Ramapriya" > wrote:

> I wish you all a very cheery 2005. You really are a nice set of guys
> here (those branding me a terrorist notwithstanding), mostly patient
> even at clarifying elementary stuff :)
>
> Some more Qs, if you don't mind.

Since I have nothing better to do at the moment...

> 1. How does a pilot get to know the distance to the airport that he has
> to land in, so that he plans his descent accordingly, in planes that
> don't have an onboard computer? Maps I know would give the distance
> between two fixed points, but how does he keep track of distance
> covered in flight and that sort of thing?

It's a learned skill, a combination of keeping track of where you are
relative to the ground and using charts, and learning to judge distances
visually in the air.

> To inquire ground stations
> such info would be embarrassing, I guess :p

A little perhaps, but pilots get lost regularly. It's much better to be
a little embarrassed than totally lost.

> 2. What exactly is a VOR? Sounds like it's a constant all-direction
> radio transmission from a fixed point

That's more or less correct. There are actually two different kinds of
such ground-based transmitters: VORs and NDBs. As others have mentioned
in this thread, Google is your friend.

> on the airport

That's not correct. Some VOR transmitters are at airports. Others
aren't.

> 3. If a pilot needs to land at an airport that doesn't have a control
> tower, how does he figure its elevation so that he may plan his
> descent?

He consults a chart or an airport directory.

> 4. When a pilot says, "Give me a vector", what does he actually mean?

He's asking air traffic control to tell him which direction to fly.
(It's a less embarrassing way of saying, "I'm lost".)

> 5. When pilots use miles in conversations, does it mean the miles we
> normally use, or is it always nautical miles?

It's supposed to be always nautical, but distance estimates are often
wrong by more than 10%, which is the different between nautical and
statute miles, so it often doesn't really matter.

> 6. The difference between airspeed and groundspeed is that airspeed is
> the net of the plane's speed and opposing windspeed, while groundspeed
> is just the plane's speed. Right?

Not quite. There's no such thing as "just the plane's speed." There is
only the plane's speed with respect to other things. Airspeed is the
plane's speed with respect to the air. Ground speed is the plane's
speed with respect to the ground.

> 7. What is "density altitude"

It's a way of expressing the air's capacity for supporting the
airplane's weight taking into account the effect of both altitude and
temperature. When the air gets hot it expands and effectively gets
"thinner". Aircraft performance figures assume a standard temperature.
When the air is hotter than that temperature you take that into account
by figuring out what the "effective" altitude is, that is, the altitude
which, at standard temperature, has the same capacity for supporting the
airplane's weight at whatever the temperature happens to actually be.

> , and how to compute it?

It's usually done by looking it up in a table. There's a formula, but
few people actually use it.

> If I'm not wrong,
> its use is to plan the length of takeoff roll and angle of climb.

Yep.

rg

[G.R. Patterson III]

Christopher Brian Colohan wrote:
>
> I managed to pick up an outdated
> copy of the Jeppesen Private Pilot textbook for $5. This book would
> answer every one of your questions, and more, with much more detail
> and better pictures than you are likely to find on this newsgroup or
> on the web.

Yep. That's really what you should do, Rama. That's an excellent book.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[BTIZ]

>> 5. When pilots use miles in conversations, does it mean the miles we
>> normally use, or is it always nautical miles?
>
> It's supposed to be always nautical, but distance estimates are often
> wrong by more than 10%, which is the different between nautical and
> statute miles, so it often doesn't really matter.

how can that be.. a distance is a distance.. who said anything about
"estimates"..
If I measure 10nm then it is 10nm.. if my DME says I'm x miles from station
y, then that's where I am... there is no 10% error..

BT

[Ron Garret]

In article <SL5Bd.2351$232.844@fed1read05>,
"BTIZ" > wrote:

> >> 5. When pilots use miles in conversations, does it mean the miles we
> >> normally use, or is it always nautical miles?
> >
> > It's supposed to be always nautical, but distance estimates are often
> > wrong by more than 10%, which is the different between nautical and
> > statute miles, so it often doesn't really matter.
>
> how can that be.. a distance is a distance.. who said anything about
> "estimates"..
> If I measure 10nm then it is 10nm.. if my DME says I'm x miles from station
> y, then that's where I am... there is no 10% error..

Read the question again: "When pilots use miles in conversations..."
When a pilot says, "Five miles from the field" the actual physical
distance is never exactly five miles.

Even when your DME says x miles from station y that is *not* where you
are. At best, it is the slant-line distance, and at worst it's a
completely arbitrary number because your DME could be kerfliggered.
Furthermore, a VORTAC is more or less a point, but an airport isn't. A
typical airport is many tenths of miles (of either flavor) long/wide.
You'd have to pick an arbitrary point on the field and measure your
distance to that. What do you pick? The tower? What if there is no
tower? The middle of the runway? What if there's more than one runway?
The end of the runway? Which end?

So you see, the actual physical distance from your airplane to an
airport is not even well defined. So when a pilot says "I'm five miles
from the field" what he really means is "I'm somewhere in the vicinity
of five miles" at which point it doesn't much matter what kind of miles
are meant.

rg

[Ramapriya]

Terry wrote:
> Couldn't have said it better Dudley...
>
> My personal opinion is "he" likes the attention from the
newsgroup vets
> rather than the information from those trying to help. Most
questions are
> easily answered on his own computer and using a search engine.


I respect both your and Dudley's views, though your "personal opinion"
couldn't have been more incorrect.

Bob Moore is closest to feeling my pulse on all this, with one little
difference - my Qs haven't exactly arisen only out of the Airbus
cockpit ride. In fact, I did whatever it took to get the pilots agree
to have me in the jumpseat with them because I really, really wanted
to. I've wanted to do that real-time for a very long time, and probably
would've, had it not been for restrictive reasons.

Thanks a lot to guys like Bob, Jim, Patterson and Sarangan. I'll pick
up "Sticks and rudder" from somewhere too, to supplement info from this
ng.

Cheers,

Ramapriya

[Dudley Henriques]

"Ramapriya" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Terry wrote:
>> Couldn't have said it better Dudley...
>>
>> My personal opinion is "he" likes the attention from the
> newsgroup vets
>> rather than the information from those trying to help. Most
> questions are
>> easily answered on his own computer and using a search engine.
>
>
> I respect both your and Dudley's views, though your "personal opinion"
> couldn't have been more incorrect.
>
> Bob Moore is closest to feeling my pulse on all this, with one little
> difference - my Qs haven't exactly arisen only out of the Airbus
> cockpit ride. In fact, I did whatever it took to get the pilots agree
> to have me in the jumpseat with them because I really, really wanted
> to. I've wanted to do that real-time for a very long time, and
> probably
> would've, had it not been for restrictive reasons.
>
> Thanks a lot to guys like Bob, Jim, Patterson and Sarangan. I'll pick
> up "Sticks and rudder" from somewhere too, to supplement info from
> this
> ng.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ramapriya
>

If you want to deal with my opinion on something, deal with it directly
please, and don't couple me with what someone else has said which is
only related to a post of mine by THEIR inference .
Actually I offered you no opinion, which was the subject of my post to
you, but rather posed a question to you that you didn't answer.
I'm glad you obtained the information you were seeking and will now
supplement that information with what you ACTUALLY need to supply the
complex laundry list of information you require......a textbook! :-)

All the best to you,
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for private email; make necessary changes between ( )
dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net

[Andrew Sarangan]

I would not recommend stick & rudder. John Denker's online book is much
better. Stick & rudder is very old, and a lot of things presented there
as 'revolutionary ideas' have been well known for many years. It gets
dry pretty fast.



"Ramapriya" > wrote in news:1104475759.841789.102900
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

>
> Terry wrote:
>> Couldn't have said it better Dudley...
>>
>> My personal opinion is "he" likes the attention from the
> newsgroup vets
>> rather than the information from those trying to help. Most
> questions are
>> easily answered on his own computer and using a search engine.
>
>
> I respect both your and Dudley's views, though your "personal opinion"
> couldn't have been more incorrect.
>
> Bob Moore is closest to feeling my pulse on all this, with one little
> difference - my Qs haven't exactly arisen only out of the Airbus
> cockpit ride. In fact, I did whatever it took to get the pilots agree
> to have me in the jumpseat with them because I really, really wanted
> to. I've wanted to do that real-time for a very long time, and
probably
> would've, had it not been for restrictive reasons.
>
> Thanks a lot to guys like Bob, Jim, Patterson and Sarangan. I'll pick
> up "Sticks and rudder" from somewhere too, to supplement info from
this
> ng.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ramapriya
>
>
>

[Dudley Henriques]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
1...
>I would not recommend stick & rudder. John Denker's online book is much
> better. Stick & rudder is very old, and a lot of things presented
> there
> as 'revolutionary ideas' have been well known for many years. It gets
> dry pretty fast.

I would agree with this. Stick and Rudder is a fine book; and it
performed a useful purpose in it's day, but there are much better books
out here that
contain much needed updated information on aerodynamics.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for private email; make necessary changes between ( )
dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net

[Bob Moore]

Andrew Sarangan > wrote

> I would not recommend stick & rudder. John Denker's online book is much
> better. Stick & rudder is very old, and a lot of things presented there
> as 'revolutionary ideas' have been well known for many years. It gets
> dry pretty fast.

I completely concur.

Bob Moore

[BTIZ]

in any case.... the reference is always to nautical.. in this day and age..

BT

"Ron Garret" > wrote in message
...
> In article <SL5Bd.2351$232.844@fed1read05>,
> "BTIZ" > wrote:
>
>> >> 5. When pilots use miles in conversations, does it mean the miles we
>> >> normally use, or is it always nautical miles?
>> >
>> > It's supposed to be always nautical, but distance estimates are often
>> > wrong by more than 10%, which is the different between nautical and
>> > statute miles, so it often doesn't really matter.
>>
>> how can that be.. a distance is a distance.. who said anything about
>> "estimates"..
>> If I measure 10nm then it is 10nm.. if my DME says I'm x miles from
>> station
>> y, then that's where I am... there is no 10% error..
>
> Read the question again: "When pilots use miles in conversations..."
> When a pilot says, "Five miles from the field" the actual physical
> distance is never exactly five miles.
>
> Even when your DME says x miles from station y that is *not* where you
> are. At best, it is the slant-line distance, and at worst it's a
> completely arbitrary number because your DME could be kerfliggered.
> Furthermore, a VORTAC is more or less a point, but an airport isn't. A
> typical airport is many tenths of miles (of either flavor) long/wide.
> You'd have to pick an arbitrary point on the field and measure your
> distance to that. What do you pick? The tower? What if there is no
> tower? The middle of the runway? What if there's more than one runway?
> The end of the runway? Which end?
>
> So you see, the actual physical distance from your airplane to an
> airport is not even well defined. So when a pilot says "I'm five miles
> from the field" what he really means is "I'm somewhere in the vicinity
> of five miles" at which point it doesn't much matter what kind of miles
> are meant.
>
> rg

[Ron Garret]

In article <FviBd.3074$232.1342@fed1read05>,
"BTIZ" > wrote:

> in any case.... the reference is always to nautical.. in this day and age..

Not quite. The correct answer is the one I originally gave:

> >> > It's supposed to be always nautical...

Whether the reference actually *is* to nautical or not (and, somewhat
orthogonally, whether this number actually has any relation to physical
reality) depends on whether the pilot knows what they're doing. But,
again, the vast majority of the time it doesn't matter.

rg

[Paul Sengupta]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> I have a question for you, after watching these endless series of
> questions, and it's not meant to be hostile in any way; just curious.
>
> The questions you ask on these groups are quite complex, and require
> substantial effort to answer by the returning posters. I can't speak for
> the rest of the group, but I for one have avoided you because the
> questions you are asking are readily available in books and manuals that
> you can purchase easily if you take the time and effort to do so.

Hi Dudley,

I think part of the problem is that if I read it correctly, Ramapriya
is in India...it's an Indian name and his sig used to say vsnl which
is an Indian ISP. It may not be quite so easy as to go along to his
local FBO or hang out at the local flying club, as this may be
hundreds of miles away.

Maybe someone could suggest some links on the net that he
could look up to do some reading on the subject of airliner flights
and how they compare to private flights and perhaps recommend
some ground study material for the various questions one is likely
to come across, either on the net or as books he can purchase
from Amazon or somewhere.

I could suggest that a lot of the questions would be covered by
the groundschool course for the FAA PPL?

Cheers,
Paul (UK)

[Dudley Henriques]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in
message ...
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>> I have a question for you, after watching these endless series of
>> questions, and it's not meant to be hostile in any way; just curious.
>>
>> The questions you ask on these groups are quite complex, and require
>> substantial effort to answer by the returning posters. I can't speak
>> for the rest of the group, but I for one have avoided you because the
>> questions you are asking are readily available in books and manuals
>> that you can purchase easily if you take the time and effort to do
>> so.
>
> Hi Dudley,
>
> I think part of the problem is that if I read it correctly, Ramapriya
> is in India...it's an Indian name and his sig used to say vsnl which
> is an Indian ISP. It may not be quite so easy as to go along to his
> local FBO or hang out at the local flying club, as this may be
> hundreds of miles away.
>
> Maybe someone could suggest some links on the net that he
> could look up to do some reading on the subject of airliner flights
> and how they compare to private flights and perhaps recommend
> some ground study material for the various questions one is likely
> to come across, either on the net or as books he can purchase
> from Amazon or somewhere.
>
> I could suggest that a lot of the questions would be covered by
> the groundschool course for the FAA PPL?
>
> Cheers,
> Paul (UK)

If this is true, that would be a perfectly reasonable explanation and a
workable scenario for a newsgroup "quiz quest" I'll have to admit. It
would really have helped his approach, assuming something like this is
the case, had he mentioned this up front.
Actually, since all of what he wants to know has already been printed,
and much of it is available on the net, my option would still be to
point him to the correct links rather than sit down and type out all
these complicated answers; not to mention the usual Usenet confusion
between the answers being offered by various posters :-)
Because this poster has been so respectful to everyone, I tried my best
not to seem hostile when I posted to him. I'm fairly sure his intent
hasn't been to put anyone out.
These kinds of posts have always posed a problem for me. On one hand,
you want to try and help people. Actually, that's why most of us post
here to begin with.
I know over on the student group I always shy away from answering posts
from students asking questions their instructors should be answering for
them like, " I'm having trouble with my flare. What am I doing wrong?"
Over here on "piloting", it's the "laundry list" post that I try and
avoid for basically the same reason. There are available sources already
in place that can deal directly with the issues being asked about.
Rather than answer something like "how does a VOR work?", I've always
felt it better to give a link to a competent source of that information
for the poster rather than sit down at the keyboard and type out a
meaningful and accurate explanation on how a VOR functions. It's just me
I guess, but to me it makes sense that way.
If, on the other hand, a poster asks a specific question that can be
answered directly and without a lot of unnecessary typing, I'll post on
it.
I think in retrospect, that you might be right about this poster's
location.
Perhaps if he changes that "laundry list" approach a bit and addresses
things one at a time, he'll have a much improved and more enthusiastic
response on the groups.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for private email; make necessary changes between ( )
dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net

[Morgans]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote

> I think in retrospect, that you might be right about this poster's
> location.
> Perhaps if he changes that "laundry list" approach a bit and addresses
> things one at a time, he'll have a much improved and more enthusiastic
> response on the groups.
> Dudley Henriques

He has posted this information before, about where he lives, but I forgot.
He travels out of his country for work quite a bit, and basically, is all
alone at night with his computer for company.

Interest, and free time to post, and... <g>

I agree, about the laundry list. One question to respond to is doable. 2,
ok. 6 or 8, no way that many are going to take the time.
--
Jim in NC

[Dudley Henriques]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote
>
>> I think in retrospect, that you might be right about this poster's
>> location.
>> Perhaps if he changes that "laundry list" approach a bit and
>> addresses
>> things one at a time, he'll have a much improved and more
>> enthusiastic
>> response on the groups.
>> Dudley Henriques
>
> He has posted this information before, about where he lives, but I
> forgot.
> He travels out of his country for work quite a bit, and basically, is
> all
> alone at night with his computer for company.
>
> Interest, and free time to post, and... <g>
>
> I agree, about the laundry list. One question to respond to is
> doable. 2,
> ok. 6 or 8, no way that many are going to take the time.
> --
> Jim in NC

I think if in the future he simply tackles them one at a time, he'll
have much better general response as we're saying.
He was lucky he ran into a couple of the regulars this time out who felt
like dealing with the "list", but for a general rule, the simple, non
complicated approach is better for him I think.
Have a great new year,
Dudley

[G.R. Patterson III]

Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
> If this is true, that would be a perfectly reasonable explanation and a
> workable scenario for a newsgroup "quiz quest" I'll have to admit. It
> would really have helped his approach, assuming something like this is
> the case, had he mentioned this up front.

He did. Long ago.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Dudley Henriques]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>>
>> If this is true, that would be a perfectly reasonable explanation and
>> a
>> workable scenario for a newsgroup "quiz quest" I'll have to admit. It
>> would really have helped his approach, assuming something like this
>> is
>> the case, had he mentioned this up front.
>
> He did. Long ago.

That's fine, but with "laundry list" posts, it might be advisable that
people posting them mention these things more than "long ago" so that
those who might have missed that "long ago" post are aware of it.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for private email; make necessary changes between ( )
dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net