Bank Check Aviation

[Ron R]

The Los Angeles Times has an article about pilots who fly bank checks
around the country each night. With the modernization of check
processing, these flights will be needed less in the future.

"AirNet's 128 planes, many of them speedy Learjets, are small enough and
nimble enough to pack and leave at a moment's notice. Safety is
important, but so are deadlines."If there's a runway, we'll fly. Ice? No
problem. Tornadoes? Go around 'em," said pilot Joe Pyka. "We had guys
flying checks to the banks during the hurricanes in Florida, even though
the banks were shut down. Nothing stops us."


Los Angles Times Article: http://tinyurl.com/3zeqc

[Robert M. Gary]

Ron R wrote:
> The Los Angeles Times has an article about pilots who fly bank checks
> around the country each night. With the modernization of check
> processing, these flights will be needed less in the future.
>
> "AirNet's 128 planes, many of them speedy Learjets, are small enough
and
> nimble enough to pack and leave at a moment's notice. Safety is
> important, but so are deadlines."If there's a runway, we'll fly. Ice?
No
> problem. Tornadoes? Go around 'em," said pilot Joe Pyka. "We had guys
> flying checks to the banks during the hurricanes in Florida, even
though
> the banks were shut down. Nothing stops us."

Yea, the world seems a bit different when you have a great de-icing
system, weather radar, flight dispatchers updating your weather/route
in flight on company freq.

-Robert

[Matt Barrow]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Ron R wrote:
> > The Los Angeles Times has an article about pilots who fly bank checks
> > around the country each night. With the modernization of check
> > processing, these flights will be needed less in the future.
It's estimated that in less than ten years such tranfser will be equivalent
to the Pony Express.

> >
> > "AirNet's 128 planes, many of them speedy Learjets, are small enough
> and
> > nimble enough to pack and leave at a moment's notice. Safety is
> > important, but so are deadlines."If there's a runway, we'll fly. Ice?
> No
> > problem. Tornadoes? Go around 'em," said pilot Joe Pyka. "We had guys
> > flying checks to the banks during the hurricanes in Florida, even
> though
> > the banks were shut down. Nothing stops us."
>
> Yea, the world seems a bit different when you have a great de-icing
> system, weather radar, flight dispatchers updating your weather/route
> in flight on company freq.

And eventually all for naught.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Jim Fisher]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
>> problem. Tornadoes? Go around 'em," said pilot Joe Pyka. "We had guys
>> flying checks to the banks during the hurricanes in Florida, even
> though
>> the banks were shut down. Nothing stops us."
>
> Yea, the world seems a bit different when you have a great de-icing
> system, weather radar, flight dispatchers updating your weather/route
> in flight on company freq.

Eh? I used to know a couple of check fliers about 20 years ago. They all
flew 150's and 172's. Has the industry changed that much?

--
Jim Fisher

[Robert M. Gary]

Jim Fisher wrote:

> Eh? I used to know a couple of check fliers about 20 years ago.
They all
> flew 150's and 172's. Has the industry changed that much?

Maybe, maybe not. This article was talking about LearJets. I'm sure
others work differently, but I was responding to the article.

[[email protected]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Jim Fisher wrote:
>
> > Eh? I used to know a couple of check fliers about 20 years ago.
> They all
> > flew 150's and 172's. Has the industry changed that much?
>
> Maybe, maybe not. This article was talking about LearJets. I'm sure
> others work differently, but I was responding to the article.

Depends on where the checks are going. If you're hauling large
loads of checks from L.A. to Seattle, you're probably going to get
better service from a well equipped turbine.

The check operations that I'm familiar with used to haul checks
around towns within a state. These generally used smaller piston
powered GA aircraft.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Colin W Kingsbury]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> The check operations that I'm familiar with used to haul checks
> around towns within a state. These generally used smaller piston
> powered GA aircraft.
>

There you have it. With a half dozen banks slowly taking the whole industry
over you're going from a point-to-point operation to a hub-and-spoke one.
Paper checks- just one more piece of the old world that our grandkids will
find impossible to believe ever existed.

-cwk.

[Jürgen Exner]

Colin W Kingsbury wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> The check operations that I'm familiar with used to haul checks
>> around towns within a state. These generally used smaller piston
>> powered GA aircraft.
>>
>
> There you have it. With a half dozen banks slowly taking the whole
> industry over you're going from a point-to-point operation to a
> hub-and-spoke one. Paper checks- just one more piece of the old world
> that our grandkids will find impossible to believe ever existed.

Let's say, the rest of the world finds it impossible to believe, that paper
checks are still being used today in an industrialized country.

Standard personal checks have been replaced by Euro-Checks some 25 or 30
years ago in Europe. However nobody would even think about paying his phone,
dentist, mortgage, power, or whatever bill with a check. It's all electronic
transfer via direct deposit or automated withdrawel, even between private
people.
During maybe 15 years I probably used less than 10 checks total, mostly for
one-time larger purchases.

I was outright flabbergasted when 8 years ago I came to the motherland of
capitalism, working for one of the worlds largest high-tech(!) companies,
and I would get a piece of paper printed with funny numbers instead of money
in my bank account.
The small company where my father worked back in Germany introduced direct
deposit for all their employees somewhere in the mid 60th of the last
century. And believe me, that company was anything but progressive.

And two(?) years ago even the paper Euro check for ad-hoc purchases was
buried and now you only have something similar to direct debit, just with
the same guarantees and security as the former paper Euro check.

This paleozoic banking system of the US of A is nothing but a job guarantee
for the postal service and a permanent annoyance for anyone who has to pay a
bill.

jue

jue

[Dylan Smith]

In article <bfmFd.8172$u47.5515@trnddc09>, Jürgen Exner wrote:
> Let's say, the rest of the world finds it impossible to believe, that paper
> checks are still being used today in an industrialized country.
<snip>
> This paleozoic banking system of the US of A is nothing but a job guarantee
> for the postal service and a permanent annoyance for anyone who has to pay a
> bill.

People use them out of choice in the US. When I lived in the US, I did
the majority of my transactions either with a debit card or automated
bill pay. However, I saw quite a large number of people still paying for
their groceries by check - they had the option of using debit cards, but
for some reason they didn't want to.

Still checks are useful for paying private people. I'd rather pay for a
used car off my neighbour with a check than show up with a suitcase full
of cash or have to arrange a bank transfer.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article <bfmFd.8172$u47.5515@trnddc09>, Jürgen Exner wrote:
> > Let's say, the rest of the world finds it impossible to believe, that
paper
> > checks are still being used today in an industrialized country.
> <snip>
> > This paleozoic banking system of the US of A is nothing but a job
guarantee
> > for the postal service and a permanent annoyance for anyone who has to
pay a
> > bill.
>
> People use them out of choice in the US. When I lived in the US, I did

It's not just the banks, it's the people (companies) you're trying to pay.
Until pretty recently I could not pay my gas or electric bills by non-check
means, and I live in Boston, which is anything but a technological
backwater. Likewise, while banks charge a fee for processing credit or debit
card transactions, check deposits are largely free owing to tradition.

> Still checks are useful for paying private people. I'd rather pay for a
> used car off my neighbour with a check than show up with a suitcase full
> of cash or have to arrange a bank transfer.

I know people who've shared apartments who use PayPal to reconcile all the
bills, but there's the whole inconvenience of getting people to set up
accounts. One of the more interesting ideas is to do it all through mobile
phones. Basically you punch a PIN and type in the number to send money to,
and the recipient can receive a confirmation message right away. Obviously
there's a million details to work out, but what's interesting is that it's
the first concept I've heard that handles the individual-to-individual
transfer of funds well.

-cwk.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Colin W Kingsbury wrote:
>
> It's not just the banks, it's the people (companies) you're trying to pay.
> Until pretty recently I could not pay my gas or electric bills by non-check
> means, and I live in Boston, which is anything but a technological
> backwater.

What's a trip about this is that the actual transaction is frequently still by
check. If you get on a website (CapitalOne is an example) which allows you to
pay a bill the day it's due, the entire transaction is electronic. If you get on
one that requires that you pay several days in advance, you're usually dealing
with a middleman who accepts your payment and cuts a check to the recipient. I
was told this by the payment department of my water company, which uses such a
service.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Matt Barrow]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article <bfmFd.8172$u47.5515@trnddc09>, Jürgen Exner wrote:
> > Let's say, the rest of the world finds it impossible to believe, that
paper
> > checks are still being used today in an industrialized country.
> <snip>
> > This paleozoic banking system of the US of A is nothing but a job
guarantee
> > for the postal service and a permanent annoyance for anyone who has to
pay a
> > bill.
>
> People use them out of choice in the US. When I lived in the US, I did
> the majority of my transactions either with a debit card or automated
> bill pay. However, I saw quite a large number of people still paying for
> their groceries by check - they had the option of using debit cards, but
> for some reason they didn't want to.

Quite so.Any more, the majority of checks are BUSINESS checks where
electronic transfer is not feasible due to the hassle of setting up a one
time transaction.

> Still checks are useful for paying private people. I'd rather pay for a
> used car off my neighbour with a check than show up with a suitcase full
> of cash or have to arrange a bank transfer.

How would you pay someone electronically for, say, doing your yard service
or a baby sitter?


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[ET]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in
:

>
> "Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article <bfmFd.8172$u47.5515@trnddc09>, Jürgen Exner wrote:
>> > Let's say, the rest of the world finds it impossible to believe,
>> > that
> paper
>> > checks are still being used today in an industrialized country.
>> <snip>
>> > This paleozoic banking system of the US of A is nothing but a job
> guarantee
>> > for the postal service and a permanent annoyance for anyone who has
>> > to
> pay a
>> > bill.
>>
>> People use them out of choice in the US. When I lived in the US, I
>> did the majority of my transactions either with a debit card or
>> automated bill pay. However, I saw quite a large number of people
>> still paying for their groceries by check - they had the option of
>> using debit cards, but for some reason they didn't want to.
>
> Quite so.Any more, the majority of checks are BUSINESS checks where
> electronic transfer is not feasible due to the hassle of setting up a
> one time transaction.
>
>> Still checks are useful for paying private people. I'd rather pay for
>> a used car off my neighbour with a check than show up with a suitcase
>> full of cash or have to arrange a bank transfer.
>
> How would you pay someone electronically for, say, doing your yard
> service or a baby sitter?
>
>

PayPal used to have a service where you had an applet on you Palm, then
you could "beam" money to someone else with the applet on your Palm.

I thought it was a really cleaver idea, but it didn't take off. Of
course the other person had to "have" a palm, and a paypal account.
(although you could "beam" them the applet as well)

The problem with paypal for just a transaction every now and then, is
it's kind of a pita to get your money back into your checking account.

ET

[Matt Barrow]

"ET" > wrote in message
...

>
> PayPal used to have a service where you had an applet on you Palm, then
> you could "beam" money to someone else with the applet on your Palm.
>
> I thought it was a really cleaver idea, but it didn't take off. Of
> course the other person had to "have" a palm, and a paypal account.
> (although you could "beam" them the applet as well)
>
> The problem with paypal for just a transaction every now and then, is
> it's kind of a pita to get your money back into your checking account.

Kinda of a pain if you don't have a Palm or don't trust PayPal...or both.

--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[[email protected]]

Dylan Smith wrote:
<snip>
> When I lived in the US, I did
> the majority of my transactions either with a debit card or automated
> bill pay. However, I saw quite a large number of people still paying
for
> their groceries by check - they had the option of using debit cards,
but
> for some reason they didn't want to.
>

Much of this has to do with banking policies and regulations. In
today's environment, debit cards lack many of the safeguards associated
with credit cards and checks. If someone gets your debit card info and
pin by nefarious means (which can be easily done), they can clean out
your bank accounts. At a large number of banking institutions today,
you're on your own if that happens.

On the other hand, federal law limits a credit card holder's
liability to $50 in the event of fraud.

On the check side, if a bank accepts a paper check with a fraudulent
signature, they're still on the hook for the money.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Colin W Kingsbury wrote:
> >
> > It's not just the banks, it's the people (companies) you're trying to
pay.
>
> What's a trip about this is that the actual transaction is frequently
still by
> check.

Yeah, I know my gas company does this "check-by-phone" thing where you give
them your account and routing numbers and they print a paper check to submit
for payment. Presumably their bank will now scan that check in and transmit
the image to my bank for payment. The madness!

-cwk.

[Colin W Kingsbury]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> with credit cards and checks. If someone gets your debit card info and
> pin by nefarious means (which can be easily done), they can clean out
> your bank accounts.

How do they get your pin number? Then how do they get your card to use it?

-cwk.

[Matt Barrow]

"Colin W Kingsbury" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> Yeah, I know my gas company does this "check-by-phone" thing where you
give
> them your account and routing numbers and they print a paper check to
submit
> for payment. Presumably their bank will now scan that check in and
transmit
> the image to my bank for payment. The madness!

Wal-Mart scans your check at the checkout counter, records the info and
makes an EFT transmission, then destroys the check...while you stand there.

[[email protected]]

Colin W Kingsbury wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > with credit cards and checks. If someone gets your debit card info
and
> > pin by nefarious means (which can be easily done), they can clean
out
> > your bank accounts.
>
> How do they get your pin number? Then how do they get your card to
use it?
>

Once you have the data from the mag stripe of a debit card, it's
child's play to make a duplicate.

It's usually done by a combination of a data recorder (for the mag
strip info) and a camera to record the pin. Early versions used a tap
into a mag card reader at gas station or convenience store, with a
small overhead camera for the pin. This generally required the
participation of a store employee. More recently, card readers and
cameras have been surreptitiously attached to bank ATMs. The card and
pin info sent wirelessly to scammers waiting near by. See :

http://www.snopes.com/crime/warnings/atmcamera.asp

The secret service has also busted organizations that bought ATM
units, set them up in public places, then drained the bank accounts of
anyone that used them.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Jürgen Exner]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> How would you pay someone electronically for, say, doing your yard
> service or a baby sitter?

If it's the kid next door then I would use those green paper thingies with
portraits of US presidents on them.

If it's a company then in a country with decent banking their invoice would
have their bank and account information imprinted. Type that in at your
computer, and the next day they will have their money.

jue

[Robert]

"J=FCrgen Exner" wrote:

> Colin W Kingsbury wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >>
> >> The check operations that I'm familiar with used to haul checks
> >> around towns within a state. These generally used smaller piston
> >> powered GA aircraft.
> >>
> >
> > There you have it. With a half dozen banks slowly taking the whole
> > industry over you're going from a point-to-point operation to a
> > hub-and-spoke one. Paper checks- just one more piece of the old world=

> > that our grandkids will find impossible to believe ever existed.
>
> Let's say, the rest of the world finds it impossible to believe, that p=
aper
> checks are still being used today in an industrialized country.
>
> Standard personal checks have been replaced by Euro-Checks some 25 or 3=
0
> years ago in Europe. However nobody would even think about paying his p=
hone,
> dentist, mortgage, power, or whatever bill with a check. It's all elect=
ronic
> transfer via direct deposit or automated withdrawel, even between priva=
te
> people.
> During maybe 15 years I probably used less than 10 checks total, mostly=
for
> one-time larger purchases.
>
> I was outright flabbergasted when 8 years ago I came to the motherland =
of
> capitalism, working for one of the worlds largest high-tech(!) companie=
s,
> and I would get a piece of paper printed with funny numbers instead of =
money
> in my bank account.
> The small company where my father worked back in Germany introduced dir=
ect
> deposit for all their employees somewhere in the mid 60th of the last
> century. And believe me, that company was anything but progressive.
>
> And two(?) years ago even the paper Euro check for ad-hoc purchases was=

> buried and now you only have something similar to direct debit, just wi=
th
> the same guarantees and security as the former paper Euro check.
>
> This paleozoic banking system of the US of A is nothing but a job guara=
ntee
> for the postal service and a permanent annoyance for anyone who has to =
pay a
> bill.

I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. First, anyone who h=
as to
pay a bill in the USA has the option of all kinds of bill payment service=
s,
offered by banks, third parties and also many payees themselves. Or they=
can
choose to pay by check. It is a personal choice.

I spend a great deal of the year in Europe, and I can assure anybody that=
paper
checks are *very* much alive there and are used all of the time. I know =
because
I always have to reorder the damn things. In stores, merchants will take=
care
to ensure there are sufficient funds for at least large amounts.

Euro check? I haven't dealt with those in a number of years now.

Finally, I worked for a small employer in the US in the early 90's and au=
tomatic
direct deposit was all but required (i.e. highly encouraged) for everyone=
=2E

On the other hand, payments by credit cards and debit cards serve as a ma=
ssive
income guarantee of merchant fees to banks and networks, which get passed=
on to
the consumer o course.

[Jürgen Exner]

ET wrote:
> PayPal used to have a service where you had an applet on you Palm,
> then you could "beam" money to someone else with the applet on your
> Palm.
> I thought it was a really cleaver idea, but it didn't take off. Of
> course the other person had to "have" a palm, and a paypal account.
> (although you could "beam" them the applet as well)
>
> The problem with paypal for just a transaction every now and then, is
> it's kind of a pita to get your money back into your checking account.

And now imagine being able to do that with your normal banking account and
without the need for a Palm (you can do it via online banking or at any ATM
or at the bank). Wouldn't that be great?

Amazing that such a system is just the standard way of paying bills for some
30+ years already.

jue

[Jürgen Exner]

Colin W Kingsbury wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>
>> with credit cards and checks. If someone gets your debit card info
>> and pin by nefarious means (which can be easily done), they can
>> clean out your bank accounts.
>
> How do they get your pin number? Then how do they get your card to
> use it?

Many different ways.

L0ow-tech approach: pick-pockets for the card and some powder on the touch
pad (once you know _which_ four digits have been pressed there are only 24
different combinations possible!)

High-tech approach: mounting fraudulent card readers at access doors to ATMs
over the weekend. The readers would look legitimate, ask you for your card
and PIN three times, and then just show the message
"PIN not valid. Card retained for security reasons. Please contact our
office Monday to Friday 8:00 to 16:00. Good bye."

And then the thieves would just transmit the data on the magnetic stripe to
many places across the continent, create their own cards with the same data.
And you gave them the PIN already, too.
Takes less then a few hours to empty any bank account, even if the
individual withdrawel is limited to just a few hundred dollars.

jue

[Jürgen Exner]

Robert wrote:
> I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. First, anyone
> who has to pay a bill in the USA has the option of all kinds of bill
> payment services, offered by banks, third parties and also many
> payees themselves.

True. Just like this grandious online bill paying system at e.g. Bank of
America or First Tech or pick any other bank. For really large payees they
do have electronic transfer finally. For smaller payees you will notice
"Method of payment: Check". In other works the bank is simply printing the
check on your behalf and sending it by snail mail.

> I spend a great deal of the year in Europe, and I can assure anybody
> that paper checks are *very* much alive there and are used all of the
> time.

> I know because I always have to reorder the damn things. In
> stores, merchants will take care to ensure there are sufficient funds
> for at least large amounts.
>
> Euro check? I haven't dealt with those in a number of years now.

I have lived in Europe (Germany to be precise) for 34 years. Believe me, I
do know what I am talking about.

> Finally, I worked for a small employer in the US in the early 90's
> and automatic direct deposit was all but required (i.e. highly
> encouraged) for everyone.
>
> On the other hand, payments by credit cards and debit cards serve as
> a massive income guarantee of merchant fees to banks and networks,
> which get passed on to the consumer o course.

[Robert]

"J=FCrgen Exner" wrote:

> Robert wrote:
> > I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. First, anyone
> > who has to pay a bill in the USA has the option of all kinds of bill
> > payment services, offered by banks, third parties and also many
> > payees themselves.
>
> True. Just like this grandious online bill paying system at e.g. Bank o=
f
> America or First Tech or pick any other bank. For really large payees t=
hey
> do have electronic transfer finally. For smaller payees you will notice=

> "Method of payment: Check". In other works the bank is simply printing =
the
> check on your behalf and sending it by snail mail.

Actually it has nothing to do with the size of the payee. It has everythi=
ng to
do with whether the payee chooses to accept electronic payments. (And th=
ere
is some economic incentive to do so as a cost saving measure).

> > I spend a great deal of the year in Europe, and I can assure anybody
> > that paper checks are *very* much alive there and are used all of the=

> > time.
>
> > I know because I always have to reorder the damn things. In
> > stores, merchants will take care to ensure there are sufficient funds=

> > for at least large amounts.
> >
> > Euro check? I haven't dealt with those in a number of years now.
>
> I have lived in Europe (Germany to be precise) for 34 years. Believe me=
, I
> do know what I am talking about.

Then you might be surprised to learn that all of Europe does not operate =
as
Germany does. But life is a series of compromises. Next we might disc=
uss
the very efficient and widely used modern General Aviation system in Germ=
any
too :)

> > Finally, I worked for a small employer in the US in the early 90's
> > and automatic direct deposit was all but required (i.e. highly
> > encouraged) for everyone.
> >
> > On the other hand, payments by credit cards and debit cards serve as
> > a massive income guarantee of merchant fees to banks and networks,
> > which get passed on to the consumer o course.

[Newps]

>>
>>The problem with paypal for just a transaction every now and then, is
>>it's kind of a pita to get your money back into your checking account.

Huh? You log on to Pay Pal and download to your checking account.
Takes less than a minute.

[Jürgen Exner]

Robert wrote:
>>> Euro check? I haven't dealt with those in a number of years now.

As I mentioned before there's a good reason for that:
http://www.tagesschau.de/aktuell/meldungen/0,1185,OID307396,00.html

>> I have lived in Europe (Germany to be precise) for 34 years. Believe
>> me, I do know what I am talking about.
>
> Then you might be surprised to learn that all of Europe does not
> operate as Germany does. But life is a series of compromises.
> Next we might discuss the very efficient and widely used modern
> General Aviation system in Germany too :)

No way! That would be on topic and we can't do that, can we? ;-)

jue

[Jay Beckman]

"Jürgen Exner" > wrote in message
news:srGFd.7291$C.1087@trnddc05...
> Colin W Kingsbury wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>>
>>> with credit cards and checks. If someone gets your debit card info
>>> and pin by nefarious means (which can be easily done), they can
>>> clean out your bank accounts.
>>
>> How do they get your pin number? Then how do they get your card to
>> use it?
>
> Many different ways.
>
> L0ow-tech approach: pick-pockets for the card and some powder on the touch
> pad (once you know _which_ four digits have been pressed there are only 24
> different combinations possible!)
>
> High-tech approach: mounting fraudulent card readers at access doors to
> ATMs over the weekend. The readers would look legitimate, ask you for
> your card and PIN three times, and then just show the message
> "PIN not valid. Card retained for security reasons. Please contact our
> office Monday to Friday 8:00 to 16:00. Good bye."
>
> And then the thieves would just transmit the data on the magnetic stripe
> to many places across the continent, create their own cards with the same
> data. And you gave them the PIN already, too.
> Takes less then a few hours to empty any bank account, even if the
> individual withdrawel is limited to just a few hundred dollars.
>
> jue

Except for the fact that from an ATM those few hundred dollars can only be
withdrawn every 24 hours.

I know my bank will contact me if there is a preset limit exceeded either by
ATM or by purchases.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[Jürgen Exner]

Jay Beckman wrote:
> "Jürgen Exner" > wrote in message
[...]
>> Takes less then a few hours to empty any bank account, even if the
>> individual withdrawel is limited to just a few hundred dollars.
>
> Except for the fact that from an ATM those few hundred dollars can
> only be withdrawn every 24 hours.
>
> I know my bank will contact me if there is a preset limit exceeded
> either by ATM or by purchases.

Yes, those additional security measures were put in place after that scheme
with creating new cards from blanks became popular.

Not too long ago there was a time when ATMs weren't networked. A bit more
recently they weren't networked between cities or between different banks.
And even today I am not sure if they are networked in real-time between
countries and/or continents.

I don't think that an ATM somewhere in let's say Botswana would connect to
your home bank in the US in real time before handing you the cash as long as
it's below the daily limit.
Now, if the gang has enough people they can use the same trick in several
dozen countries simultaneous before your home bank would ever know that
someone is withdrawing money from your account. By the time your bank
receives the first slip from Botswana the gangsters are long gone with the
money.

I do not know if there are actually any global syndicats working like this
today.
However I do remember that some 10 or 15 years ago there were organized
syndicats in Europe, which worked exactly like that. By the time you noticed
that your EuroCard was missing the gang would have withdrawn the maximum
daily amount of cash (typically somewhere around 200$US) in 20 or 30
European cities simultaneously already.

jue

[Cub Driver]

>Still checks are useful for paying private people. I'd rather pay for a
>used car off my neighbour with a check than show up with a suitcase full
>of cash or have to arrange a bank transfer.

About 1975 I sold my seven-year-old Volkswagen camper to a student
with all the hippie attributes who planned to join a commune in New
Mexico. I pointed out to her that it would have to be a cash sale,
meaning she couldn't pay me in installments.

On the big day she turned up, having hitchhiked half way across the
state of New Hampshire with $900 in her pocket. (Just to put this in
perspective, I'd paid $3,500 for the replacement automobile. That $900
is about equivalent to $5,000 today.) When I expressed my
astonishment, she said: "Well, you said it was a cash sale."



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:56:32 GMT, "Colin W Kingsbury"
> wrote:

>Until pretty recently I could not pay my gas or electric bills by non-check
>means, and I live in Boston, which is anything but a technological
>backwater.

Evidently it is! PSNH has offered this option for several years. So
has Verizon, tho perhaps not as long.

I almost never write checks any longer (save for personal
transactions, as you mention). Indeed, I sometimes think of announcing
a 50-cent fee, to pay for the check and the stamp.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:13:51 -0700, "Matt Barrow" >
wrote:

>Wal-Mart scans your check at the checkout counter, records the info and
>makes an EFT transmission, then destroys the check...while you stand there.

Wal-Mart will take over the world!

-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

>How would you pay someone electronically for, say, doing your yard service
>or a baby sitter?

We have a guy crewing on a boat for enough to cover his insurance etc.
I pay him through PayPal.

As for the yard guy, well, for some reason I don't fully understand he
really appreciates it if I pay him cash, and I want to keep him happy
because he's cheaper than the previous guy :)


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:29:57 -0700, Newps > wrote:

>>>The problem with paypal for just a transaction every now and then, is
>>>it's kind of a pita to get your money back into your checking account.
>
>Huh? You log on to Pay Pal and download to your checking account.
>Takes less than a minute.

A whole lot easier than depositing a check!


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

>> with credit cards and checks. If someone gets your debit card info and
>> pin by nefarious means (which can be easily done), they can clean out
>> your bank accounts.
>
>How do they get your pin number? Then how do they get your card to use it?

Most banks now issue "Master Money" or some other such card. You don't
need a pin to swipe such cards, and you don't need the physical card
if you're shopping by phone or internet.

I believe that there are limits on how much you can lose in this
fashion, but that limit is generally much higher than with credit
cards. My bank for instance has a $500 limit. But it's $50 for a
credit card, and almost always the card company will stand behind you
and not enforce that.

I insisted that my bank replace the Master Money card with an ATM
card, which does indeed require a pin and the physical card for every
withdrawal. They looked at me as if I were a dinosaur.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:57:52 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
wrote:

>Except for the fact that from an ATM those few hundred dollars can only be
>withdrawn every 24 hours.

$400 at my bank. That's $2,000 in five days. No thanks!

And of course that limit doesn't apply when you're using it as a POS
debit card.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Cub Driver > wrote:

> >Except for the fact that from an ATM those few hundred dollars can only be
> >withdrawn every 24 hours.
>
> $400 at my bank. That's $2,000 in five days. No thanks!
>
> And of course that limit doesn't apply when you're using it as a POS
> debit card.

It applies for my debit card,

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, said:
>As for the yard guy, well, for some reason I don't fully understand he
>really appreciates it if I pay him cash, and I want to keep him happy
>because he's cheaper than the previous guy :)

You'd better not run for public office, then. That's tax evasion. :-)


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they
start making vacuum cleaners" - Ernst Jan Plugge

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Cub Driver wrote:
As for the yard guy, well, for some reason I don't fully understand he
> really appreciates it if I pay him cash, and I want to keep him happy
> because he's cheaper than the previous guy :)

In my experience, tradesmen who appreciate being paid in cash are
cheaper by almost exactly the marginal rate of income tax...

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[steve.t]

Mr. Exner:

After a statement I think you made about how backward the USofA banking
is (words to that effect), you have just described one of the reasons
that cash works quite handily. Also, while traveling in Austria, they
didn't like me using my credit cards, they really wanted Euros. Come to
think of it, so did the Swiss (but they wanted Swiss Franks more than
they wanted Euros).

One of the problems with a cashless society, if you stop and think
about it, is that should there be some "glitch" in the system, you are
screwed. If, here in the USofA, they were to put a hold on your bank
accounts (don't even start with this isn't possible, just what do you
think happens when you are charged under RICO) and the whole world is
operating cashless, you become an instant pauper.

And if you think about it, this would put a stop to beggers. "Will work
for food / shelter" is the only "barter" these people would have
because you can't just drop some change in their cup (as it were).

Somethings that scifi writers have toyed with over the years are
starting to hit home, yes?

While I don't fly checks, I have done quite a bit of item processing
work as a computer programmer. I am appalled at things that some banks
get away with.

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

[Jürgen Exner]

steve.t wrote:
> Mr. Exner:
>
> After a statement I think you made about how backward the USofA
> banking is (words to that effect), you have just described one of the
> reasons that cash works quite handily. Also, while traveling in
> Austria, they didn't like me using my credit cards, they really
> wanted Euros. Come to think of it, so did the Swiss (but they wanted
> Swiss Franks more than they wanted Euros).

Yep, absolutely right.

> One of the problems with a cashless society, if you stop and think
> about it, is that should there be some "glitch" in the system, you are
> screwed. If, here in the USofA, they were to put a hold on your bank
> accounts (don't even start with this isn't possible, just what do you
> think happens when you are charged under RICO) and the whole world is
> operating cashless, you become an instant pauper.

Ah, wait a second. I think you missunderstood.
I am not advocating a cashless society at all. Cash has worked great for
millenia and is very convenient. Cash is the one payment method that even
the most enthusiastic privacy advocat has no problems with.

I do oppose the excessive use of checks. There are a few niches where checks
may make sense, but for the vast majority of check transaction in the USA
today it would be more convenient for the payer, more convenient for the
payee, cheaper, and safer to use some other means. Among them electronic
transfer, direct withdrawel, direct deposit, and for store purchases direct
debit or even credit cards.

BTW: your experience about Europeans not wanting your credit card: In Europe
you use the EuroCard instead which is pretty much accepted universally as
the successor of the EuroCheck. Depending on the store you use it either as
a debit card, credit card (if linked to a credit card organization) or a
direct withdrawel authorization.
Of course as an American your bank wouldn't issue a EuroCard to you...

jue

[steve.t]

EuroCard. Hmmmmm. I should ask our Austrian bank about it. But die
Baekerei und Konditerei vollten euros [neighborhood bakery w/ retail
sales and fancy coffee house type of eatery wanted euros], end of
story. And for those of you who speak German, my appologies with
spelling, I am a bit conversant, but do not read/write German.

I guess I did misunderstand you. I am quite familiar with checks, how
they can be abused, etc. I am somewhat miffed at banks in putting the
costs of debit cards onto the user, as it costs a bank more to process
a check than it does to process a debit transaction. Banks make money
off of fees, and the more "products" they can come up with, the more
money they can make in fees [Products? If we have a checking account
called Master Free, we will send you your checks at no cost as long as
you maintain a $5000 balance in your checking account. Hopefully you
get my drift. If you don't and you bank with Wells Fargo you should be
well aware of the fee schedules].
Enough of my rant.

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

[steve.t]

Well for me to get back on topic, I did rent a C182 while in Austria.
Very interesting flying in the Alps. IFR below 14,000 using VORs *NOT*
recommended (assuming you could even get the signal -- we did our
flight entirely VFR so we didn't have to talk to anyone -- which would
have incurred a per contact cost!).

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

[Ditch]

> flight dispatchers updating your weather/route
>in flight on company freq.

Where do you get that from? Most of the 135 operators that carry checks have
dispatchers, but we don't get updated weather enroute from them. It's good ol'
flight watch or just talking to the controller.
Also, a majority of the airplanes are singles and light twins. Most do not have
things like radar and de-icing equipment can be marginal at best. Most don't
even have autopilots.

Companies like Ameriflight operate Metroliners single pilot with no autopilot,
radar, etc...talk about a handful at times.

Incidently, Airnet's fleet is mostly piston twins.







-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

[Robert]

"J=FCrgen Exner" wrote:

> steve.t wrote:
> > Mr. Exner:
> >
> > After a statement I think you made about how backward the USofA
> > banking is (words to that effect), you have just described one of the=

> > reasons that cash works quite handily. Also, while traveling in
> > Austria, they didn't like me using my credit cards, they really
> > wanted Euros. Come to think of it, so did the Swiss (but they wanted
> > Swiss Franks more than they wanted Euros).
>
> Yep, absolutely right.
>
> > One of the problems with a cashless society, if you stop and think
> > about it, is that should there be some "glitch" in the system, you ar=
e
> > screwed. If, here in the USofA, they were to put a hold on your bank
> > accounts (don't even start with this isn't possible, just what do you=

> > think happens when you are charged under RICO) and the whole world is=

> > operating cashless, you become an instant pauper.
>
> Ah, wait a second. I think you missunderstood.
> I am not advocating a cashless society at all. Cash has worked great fo=
r
> millenia and is very convenient. Cash is the one payment method that ev=
en
> the most enthusiastic privacy advocat has no problems with.
>
> I do oppose the excessive use of checks. There are a few niches where c=
hecks
> may make sense, but for the vast majority of check transaction in the U=
SA
> today it would be more convenient for the payer, more convenient for th=
e
> payee, cheaper, and safer to use some other means. Among them electroni=
c
> transfer, direct withdrawel, direct deposit, and for store purchases di=
rect
> debit or even credit cards.

I believe all of these means are very popular in USA. Of course there is=
also
often a *choice* and people choose to use the available method that suits=
them
best. Of course "check" transactions are becoming more electronic based =
and
less paper based, and Check 21 is just another evolution of that.

>
>
> BTW: your experience about Europeans not wanting your credit card: In E=
urope
> you use the EuroCard instead which is pretty much accepted universally =
as
> the successor of the EuroCheck. Depending on the store you use it eithe=
r as
> a debit card, credit card (if linked to a credit card organization) or =
a
> direct withdrawel authorization.
> Of course as an American your bank wouldn't issue a EuroCard to you...

Of course it certainly might. It would just be called a "MasterCard" in =
the
states.

[Cub Driver]

>You'd better not run for public office, then. That's tax evasion. :-)

Not on my part. If there ever was an independent contractor, the lawn
guy is it. Brings his own equipment, on the day he picks, and mows how
he wants to. Not even Donna down at the IRS could argue that I tell
him what to do.

(I don't even get to tell him in what specie he gets paid! It's his
way or the highway.)


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

>> $400 at my bank. That's $2,000 in five days. No thanks!
>>
>> And of course that limit doesn't apply when you're using it as a POS
>> debit card.
>
>It applies for my debit card,

You can't buy a $450 TV? Sheez!

No, I think you're mistaken. If you have $50,000 in your account, it
could be rolled for $49,999. It's only cash withdrawals that have a
daily limit. Point-of-sales is another thing entirely. Go look at your
agreement.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:05:30 GMT, "Jürgen Exner"
> wrote:

>even credit cards.

No, not *even* credit cards. Credit cards above all! You don't have to
mess with cash receipts, and you don't have to balance your account.
All you need do at the end of the month is cast your eye down the list
of charges and investigate any that don't look familiar.

I used to have a $15 minimum on credit cards. Then $10. Then $5. Now I
go to the Post Office and roll the card for a $1.42 package. I think
the PO guy prefers it: it's easier to roll the card than to make
change, and there's no separate cash receipt. (And if I lose the
receipt, there's the monthly charge sheet to substitute.)

I find it hard to believe that I once drove across the country and
back with my wife and infant, paying cash and writing checks all the
way. Possibly I had some travelers' as backup; I don't remember.

My first card was American Express, and I paid for the privilege.
That's hard to believe now, also, when cards pay me instead!


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Cub Driver > wrote:

> >> And of course that limit doesn't apply when you're using it as a POS
> >> debit card.
> >
> >It applies for my debit card,
>
> You can't buy a $450 TV? Sheez!

I can, because my daily limit is higher than that (not by much). :-)

> No, I think you're mistaken. If you have $50,000 in your account, it
> could be rolled for $49,999. It's only cash withdrawals that have a
> daily limit. Point-of-sales is another thing entirely. Go look at your
> agreement.

I have. My debit card is subject to daily limits, even when used
like a visa card or POS.

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[Martin Hotze]

On 14 Jan 2005 07:24:10 -0800, steve.t wrote:

>
>After a statement I think you made about how backward the USofA banking
>is (words to that effect), you have just described one of the reasons
>that cash works quite handily.

it makes me wonder how business can be effectively done there, yes (I have
an account for myself in the USA, I opened one just to see the differences)

>Also, while traveling in Austria, they
>didn't like me using my credit cards, they really wanted Euros. Come to
>think of it, so did the Swiss (but they wanted Swiss Franks more than
>they wanted Euros).

well, this is easy: first you ran into many tourist related businesses
(hotels, restaurants, etc.): they are a completely different species.
second: there is a rather high disagio rate to pay to the cc company (about
6% IIRC)
Switzerland is not part of the european union and they haven't adopted the
Euro, so it is normal that they want to see their legal tender.

#m
--
<http://www.terranova.net/content/images/goering.jpg>

[Martin Hotze]

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:05:30 GMT, Jürgen Exner wrote:

>Ah, wait a second. I think you missunderstood.
>I am not advocating a cashless society at all. Cash has worked great for
>millenia and is very convenient. Cash is the one payment method that even
>the most enthusiastic privacy advocat has no problems with.

there are discussions to implement RFID tags in/to the Euro. :-/(

#m

--
<http://www.terranova.net/content/images/goering.jpg>

[Matt Barrow]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >You'd better not run for public office, then. That's tax evasion. :-)
>
> Not on my part. If there ever was an independent contractor, the lawn
> guy is it. Brings his own equipment, on the day he picks, and mows how
> he wants to. Not even Donna down at the IRS could argue that I tell
> him what to do.
>
> (I don't even get to tell him in what specie he gets paid! It's his
> way or the highway.)

Don't even hire a 14 year old baby sitter. :~)

[Martin Hotze]

On 14 Jan 2005 12:55:52 -0800, steve.t wrote:

>EuroCard. Hmmmmm. I should ask our Austrian bank about it. But die

if you see small devices, mostly in blue color, close to the cashier, then
they most likely accept such a card. the term used here is "Bankomatkarte",
it works like a debit card.

>Baekerei und Konditerei vollten euros [neighborhood bakery w/ retail
>sales and fancy coffee house type of eatery wanted euros], end of
>story.

because the shops have to pay transaction fees for every transaction. the
fee consists of a base and a percentage of the total amount. so if you're
buying your coffee with this card then the total percentage that goes to
the debit card company is too high.

>And for those of you who speak German, my appologies with
>spelling, I am a bit conversant, but do not read/write German.


difference in cards:
usa: debit card -- immediately reflected in your account
credit card -- you pay interest rate and monthly rates (or the like)

europe (almost everywhere, at least mainland):
banking card / eurocard / (and other similar names): does the same as the
american debit card
credit card: normally deducts the money directly form your account, but it
adds up all monthly invoices into one statement and then deducts the total.
you can use the credit card as you use it in the usa (for a credit), but
this is very untypical here.


hth :-)

#m

--
<http://www.terranova.net/content/images/goering.jpg>

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:56:32 GMT, "Colin W Kingsbury"
> > wrote:
>
> >Until pretty recently I could not pay my gas or electric bills by
non-check
> >means, and I live in Boston, which is anything but a technological
> >backwater.
>
> Evidently it is! PSNH has offered this option for several years. So
> has Verizon, tho perhaps not as long.
>

How to tell the difference between a redneck and a geek in Cow Hampshire:
The redneck has a satellite dish next to the appliances in his front yard,
while the geek has a high-speed internet connection in his double-wide.
Neither have running water.

;)
-cwk.

[Dan Truesdell]

Hey, I resemble that remark! :-)

Dan (KCNH)

Colin W Kingsbury wrote:
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:56:32 GMT, "Colin W Kingsbury"
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Until pretty recently I could not pay my gas or electric bills by
>>
> non-check
>
>>>means, and I live in Boston, which is anything but a technological
>>>backwater.
>>
>>Evidently it is! PSNH has offered this option for several years. So
>>has Verizon, tho perhaps not as long.
>>
>
>
> How to tell the difference between a redneck and a geek in Cow Hampshire:
> The redneck has a satellite dish next to the appliances in his front yard,
> while the geek has a high-speed internet connection in his double-wide.
> Neither have running water.
>
> ;)
> -cwk.
>
>


--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >> $400 at my bank. That's $2,000 in five days. No thanks!
>
> No, I think you're mistaken. If you have $50,000 in your account, it
> could be rolled for $49,999. It's only cash withdrawals that have a
> daily limit. Point-of-sales is another thing entirely. Go look at your
> agreement.
>

My POS has an $800 daily limit.

Also, to do POS transactions, you need a merchant account, and getting your
hands on one of those creates a paper trail. If transactions prove to be
unauthorized, VISA/MC can (and often does) charge it back to the retailer.
When I last worked in retail about five years ago, we made it a practice to
check a driver's license on any sale over $500 or anytime we felt something
was wrong.

Funny story- one time a young, hispanic guy came in in a big hurry, and
picked out a bunch of pretty random and expensive stuff, about $300 worth.
He didn't seem like the type for anything that he was buying and was very
antsy. He handed me his card to pay with, which had a name like "Morris
Goldstein" on it. I paused for a second and ran it through. He signed it
roughly and practically ran out the door and jumped in a car waiting outside
for him which shot off. The minute he walked out the door I was sure we had
just gotten rolled. I called Amex and reported the incident.

A few days later, "Morris Goldstein" calls up the store, absolutely rip****.
It turns out he was getting ready to leave town on a business trip and had
sent one of his workers down to the store with his card to pick up a few
things for him. He got to Chicago OK but when he tried to check into his
hotel the card bounced. The fact that we had been looking out for him didn't
matter, he just wanted to know who the hell we thought we were "trying to
play detective."

-cwk.

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:05:30 GMT, "Jürgen Exner"
> > wrote:
>
> >even credit cards.
>
> I used to have a $15 minimum on credit cards. Then $10. Then $5. Now I
> go to the Post Office and roll the card for a $1.42 package. I think
> the PO guy prefers it: it's easier to roll the card than to make
> change, and there's no separate cash receipt. (And if I lose the
> receipt, there's the monthly charge sheet to substitute.)
>

I practically cried when they installed credit card readers in Dunkin
Donuts. It's bad enough that those of us who just want a frickin' cup of
coffee have to wait in line while somebody orders a half-dozen soy chai
espresso sausage and egg coolattas, now I get to stand there another five
minutes waiting for receipts to print out. And don't get me started on the
fact that at least half of the people out there don't know the proper way to
make change. If you've been taught the one simple trick (counting it out
backwards from pennies up) it takes ten seconds to make change for a $100
bill on a charge of $1.42 and it requires near zero math skills.

-cwk.

[Peter Clark]

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:05:50 GMT, "Colin W Kingsbury"
> wrote:

>A few days later, "Morris Goldstein" calls up the store, absolutely rip****.
>It turns out he was getting ready to leave town on a business trip and had
>sent one of his workers down to the store with his card to pick up a few
>things for him. He got to Chicago OK but when he tried to check into his
>hotel the card bounced. The fact that we had been looking out for him didn't
>matter, he just wanted to know who the hell we thought we were "trying to
>play detective."

I thought it was against most card agreements to allow someone else to
use your card anyway.

What a putz.

Course, had Amex just called him and said "Hey, there's been some
suspicious activity, is it OK" the whole thing could have been
avoided. But I doubt he would have liked their security department's
questions on why someone other than him was in possession of the card
in the first place......

[Cub Driver]

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:05:50 GMT, "Colin W Kingsbury"
> wrote:

>A few days later, "Morris Goldstein" calls up the store, absolutely rip****.
>It turns out he was getting ready to leave town on a business trip and had
>sent one of his workers down to the store with his card

Serve him right! I'm astounded that stores are so lax with credit
cards. A month or so ago, we sent a lad up to Portland to buy a $4,500
life raft. Nobody with a company credit card could make the trip, so
we gave him one of ours and paved his way by calling ahead. I was sure
he would return empty-handed, but my more cavalier (optimistic?)
daughter insisted that it was okay. And so it was.

Similarly, my wife regards it as a point of honor that she can take my
credit card into any store at all and roll it without a peep.



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:28:25 GMT, "Colin W Kingsbury"
> wrote:

>he proper way to
>make change. If you've been taught the one simple trick (counting it out
>backwards from pennies up)

This began to go out of the knowledge base when calculators became
common. (And was cemented when cash registers began to provide the
return-change information.)

I was once in a supermarket when the power went out. The cashiers all
stood are slack-jawed: nobody knew how to add up a bill!

Finally the manager came running out with a calculator. But his pride
was dashed when it transpired that it was a solar-powered calculator,
and there wasn't enough light in the supermarket to power it.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:28:25 GMT, "Colin W Kingsbury"
> > wrote:
>
> >he proper way to
> >make change. If you've been taught the one simple trick (counting it out
> >backwards from pennies up)
>
> This began to go out of the knowledge base when calculators became
> common. (And was cemented when cash registers began to provide the
> return-change information.)

I told you not to get me started...

The part about this that drives me nuts is that the counting-up way is
*both* faster *and* easier than counting down. It takes you a few minutes to
get the hang of and then you'll never forget how to do it. The math required
is even easier and less prone to error, which is the whole point. I learned
it working the counter in a New York pizzeria where if it took you more than
a few seconds, you'd have ten people in line screaming for your head.

> I was once in a supermarket when the power went out. The cashiers all
> stood are slack-jawed: nobody knew how to add up a bill!

This is easy until you have to deal with taxes. It's easy enough in Mass.
(5%) but in places like NY where it's odd numbers like 7.5% it's kinda
tricky.

-cwk.

[Gig Giacona]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 22:05:50 GMT, "Colin W Kingsbury"
> > wrote:
>
>>A few days later, "Morris Goldstein" calls up the store, absolutely
>>rip****.
>>It turns out he was getting ready to leave town on a business trip and had
>>sent one of his workers down to the store with his card
>
> Serve him right! I'm astounded that stores are so lax with credit
> cards. A month or so ago, we sent a lad up to Portland to buy a $4,500
> life raft. Nobody with a company credit card could make the trip, so
> we gave him one of ours and paved his way by calling ahead. I was sure
> he would return empty-handed, but my more cavalier (optimistic?)
> daughter insisted that it was okay. And so it was.
>
> Similarly, my wife regards it as a point of honor that she can take my
> credit card into any store at all and roll it without a peep.
>
>

For quite a while I was writing as large as possible on the signature line
of all my credit cards "CHECK ID."

In the 15 or so years I was doing that I only once had someone ask for my ID
and he did it after reading the message on the back. (He was even kind of
sly about it.) I was at a record store buying a single CD. I immediatly
asked to see his manager, which kind o freeked him, and when she came up I
explained that she had the most observant employee out of the 1000's that
had taken my credit card.

[vincent p. norris]

> I go to the Post Office and roll the card......

Dan, what's the etymology of "roll the card"?

Is it common usage up there? Never herard it here in PA.

vince norris

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 14:50:49 GMT, "Colin W Kingsbury"
> wrote:

>I learned
>it working the counter in a New York pizzeria

I was on the produce stand in a First National market in a summer
resort. The only calculator we had was a paper bag, and the manager
instructed us that we were to do our adding on the NEXT person's bag,
not on the one in play, so the customer couldn't check his order when
he got home.

I assume that the manager told us about counting change out backwards.
I however am responsible for realizing that you could add up a bunch
of 39 and 19 cent items by rounding them up, adding them in your head,
then subtracting the pennies at the end.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:43:13 -0500, vincent p. norris >
wrote:

>Dan, what's the etymology of "roll the card"?

My wife's college chum, Marianne. Dunno where she got it. (MA is from
MA.)


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[G.R. Patterson III]

"vincent p. norris" wrote:
>
> Dan, what's the etymology of "roll the card"?

When credit cards came out, they had machines to create the charge ticket. The
tickets had carbon paper between the layers, and machines had rollers that
pressed the tickets against the raised letters on the cards. Put the card in the
machine, place a ticket over it, and slide the roller across the ticket. There
were no magnetic strips.

Every once in a while you still run into a place that uses this system.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[[email protected]]

G.R. Patterson III wrote:
> "vincent p. norris" wrote:
> >
> > Dan, what's the etymology of "roll the card"?
>
> When credit cards came out, they had machines to create the charge
ticket. The
> tickets had carbon paper between the layers, and machines had rollers
that
> pressed the tickets against the raised letters on the cards. Put the
card in the
> machine, place a ticket over it, and slide the roller across the
ticket. There
> were no magnetic strips.

Yep. The 21st century version is "swipe the card".
>
> Every once in a while you still run into a place that uses this
system.

If you visit my airport (KCHD) and buy fuel from the truck, they
still "roll the card" on their old fashioned machine. The office is too
much of a trek from most parking spots, and it's also closed long
before the fuel truck stops selling fuel for the night. Since the
truck is not equipped with the communications equipment required to
swipe a credit card, it's the only way they can conveniently sell fuel.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Morgans]

"Cub Driver" > wrote

> I however am responsible for realizing that you could add up a bunch
> of 39 and 19 cent items by rounding them up, adding them in your head,
> then subtracting the pennies at the end.
>
>
> -- all the best, Dan Ford

I do the same thing with adding and subtracting fractions, throwing extra
sixteenths around. (carpentry math)
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote
>
> When credit cards came out, they had machines to create the charge ticket.
The
> tickets had carbon paper between the layers, and machines had rollers that
> pressed the tickets against the raised letters on the cards. Put the card
in the
> machine, place a ticket over it, and slide the roller across the ticket.
There
> were no magnetic strips.
>
> Every once in a while you still run into a place that uses this system.

Along with getting the imprint of the raised letters of your card, they have
their own "place of business information" on the machine with raised
letters, so there is proof of who is to get the money you just charged.

Today, some places keep one for when their electronic system is down.

I have also see places that are having electronic difficulties, but don't
have a "roller", place a piece of paper over your card and run the side of a
lead pencil back and forth over the paper (on top of your card), thus
creating a darker copy of your numbers.
--
Jim in NC