Flying Slow

[[email protected]]

Have you ever really taken your aircraft to the bottom edges of its
flight ability and airspeed, and flown it with any degree of precision
and of more than just a few moments/minutes? Are you comfortable doing
it on the edge or nibble of a stall? Can you do it while holding
altitude and desired headings within reasonable limits - depending on
your experience?
When is the last time you did it just to sharpen your skills without
prompting by a CFI in the next seat? When is the last time you spent
some diligent time doing stalls and the full range of them with your
aircraft? Are you honestly comfortable with your abilities? I know I
have to think about it every time I go fly and always find some fault
with my performance.
In a previous post it appeared I aggravated some pilots or CFI's with
saying I felt many pilots didn't know how to fly slowly these days. I
have seen a slow errosion of what used to be basic pilot skills and
level of performance with too many pilots compared with acceptable
standards not that many years ago. Now if that won't open a bucket of
worms I'll be surprised.
Fact is, just making the FAA minimums doesn't necessarily make you safe
or even a good pilot.
Care to weigh in on the issues?
I'll be polite in my responses in accordance to the way they are
presented to me. No axe to grind, no ego to inflate (its big enough
already thank you) just a sincere desire to make pilots think a little
more about what they are doing when they go flying. You need to make
your own mistakes to hopefully learn from them and avoid repetition.
Ol Shy & Bashful

[Jim Burns]

..... and have you ever done it in an airplane without a stall warning
indicator or an airspeed indicator that drops to 0 before your wing quits
flying?

Jim

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Have you ever really taken your aircraft to the bottom edges of its
> flight ability and airspeed, and flown it with any degree of precision
> and of more than just a few moments/minutes? Are you comfortable doing
> it on the edge or nibble of a stall? Can you do it while holding
> altitude and desired headings within reasonable limits - depending on
> your experience?

[Dudley Henriques]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Have you ever really taken your aircraft to the bottom edges of its
> flight ability and airspeed, and flown it with any degree of precision
> and of more than just a few moments/minutes? Are you comfortable doing
> it on the edge or nibble of a stall? Can you do it while holding
> altitude and desired headings within reasonable limits - depending on
> your experience?
> When is the last time you did it just to sharpen your skills without
> prompting by a CFI in the next seat? When is the last time you spent
> some diligent time doing stalls and the full range of them with your
> aircraft? Are you honestly comfortable with your abilities? I know I
> have to think about it every time I go fly and always find some fault
> with my performance.
> In a previous post it appeared I aggravated some pilots or CFI's with
> saying I felt many pilots didn't know how to fly slowly these days. I
> have seen a slow errosion of what used to be basic pilot skills and
> level of performance with too many pilots compared with acceptable
> standards not that many years ago. Now if that won't open a bucket of
> worms I'll be surprised.
> Fact is, just making the FAA minimums doesn't necessarily make you
> safe
> or even a good pilot.
> Care to weigh in on the issues?
> I'll be polite in my responses in accordance to the way they are
> presented to me. No axe to grind, no ego to inflate (its big enough
> already thank you) just a sincere desire to make pilots think a little
> more about what they are doing when they go flying. You need to make
> your own mistakes to hopefully learn from them and avoid repetition.
> Ol Shy & Bashful

I would not have posted in this thread had you not referenced the other
thread peripherally in your comments.

Your points are well taken, and have validity. It's true that there are
many pilots out here who don't spend nearly enough time in the left
corner of the envelope, and doing so would make them much safer pilots.
I see only one difference between my approach to flying and what you
have stated here.
I have a problem with your sentence as follows;
"You need to make your own mistakes to hopefully learn from them and
avoid repetition."
In my end of the business thinking like this will kill you.
It's for this reason that I never taught my students, both primary and
aerobatic, to think this way.
Although it's fine to learn from a mistake, and by all means, pilots
should learn from mistakes if they live through that mistake, but my
thinking on this leans heavily toward the prevention of mistakes, rather
than learning from them.
Most good pilots I know have no problem understanding that time spent in
the left corner is time well spent, and most CFI's doing the job
properly spend plenty of time exploring slow flight and flight at and
near CLmax with their students. This is especially true of aerobatic
instructors.
Plainly put, if instructors are not doing this, they are not doing the
job properly.
It behooves all pilots to stay current by practicing flight in the left
corner, and what you have said about that is highly relevant to flight
safety.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for private email; make necessary changes between ( )
dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net

[Larry Dighera]

On 14 Jan 2005 08:21:11 -0800, wrote in
. com>::

>When is the last time you did it just to sharpen your skills without
>prompting by a CFI in the next seat?

Here's a little confession/story.

After departing in a hurry on evening in a rush to make it back to the
home field before the sun sank below the Pacific, I discovered that
I'd failed to latch the door on the trusty old PA28. I was busy
following departure vectors, altitude restrictions and handoffs during
which I tried several times to get the door latched without success.
Part of the problem was the cabin vents were open, and the air was
exiting through the trailing door's 2" gap. It was the inside
pressure that prevented me from successfully latching the door in
flight, but I was too busy to realize that.

The noise of the slipstream rushing by at 100 mph was so loud, that I
had difficulty hearing ATC instructions, and it was very distracting.
When ATC finally assigned a higher altitude, I pulled up into slow
flight, and lowered the flaps, then trimmed for 50 knots. At the
reduced speed it was easy to get the door latches fastened.

So slow flight is useful for things beside landing and photographic
missions.

[[email protected]]

Jim
A lot of my flying is just as you describe it. I frequently show
students how to fly with zero indicated and discuss the reasons for it.
When they get it figured out they are a lot more relaxed flying in that
slow speed regime and pay more attention to other clues. Not uncommon
to have them do it under the hood as well.
There are no great mysteries about it all, or there shouldn't be. When
I fly with low time CFI's I often challenge them to show me precision
maneuvers with zero IAS and maintain standards. It helps them to see a
different level of performance and increased standards that many have
not been exposed to.
Take it a step further, while crop dusting, in the turns you are
frequently very deep in the stall region to the point the stall warning
is always going off. A lot of the pilots I have worked with just turn
it off so they aren't distracted by it and simpy fly the airplane by
feel. If that can be done safely by hundreds if not thousands of spray
pilots, why shouldn't that knowledge and ability be passed along as a
part of flight training? Please note: I am not saying it should be done
all the time but part of training so they can see how it can be
accomplished and safely.
I know of a number of fatal accidents that happened because a pilot
lost his IAS indications and crashed. That should never have happened
with proper training.
Were you referring to something specific? I'd enjoy an honest exchange
of information and experience.
Cheers
Rocky aka Ol Shy & Bashful

[[email protected]]

Dudley
Thank you for your reply. On the issue of making mistakes....if a pilot
never makes one, what have they learned that will take care of them
when the inevitable mistake occurs?
Certainly our goal is to show pilots how to avoid mistakes but I can't
divorce myself from the knowledge I learned from all those I have made.
How to get out again safely is the goal isn't it?
Cheers
Rocky

[Newps]

Jim Burns wrote:
> .... and have you ever done it in an airplane without a stall warning
> indicator or an airspeed indicator that drops to 0 before your wing quits
> flying?

If the stall warning is of any use to you, you are not flying slow
enough. You need to be below the stall warning. Same for airspeed,
what possible use could the ASI be to sit there and hang on the prop?
All your indications come thru your ass on this one.

[Jim Burns]

The stall warning light in our Aztec is positioned right behind the yoke and
all but impossible to see during landing, so we don't really pay much
attention to it or bother to reposition ourselves so it is visible. The
buffet on the tail when approaching a stall is quite pronounced and easily
felt through the yoke and the seat of your pants. We keep our eyes outside
and concentrate on the power settings and the landing approach,
crosschecking the airspeed occasionally. My experience with airplanes
either without stall warning indicators or airspeed indicators that drop to
0 in slow flight, thus far, has been limited to a C170B and a SuperCub.
Both of which are very easy to fly by feel. I think they teach you to keep
your eyes out the windows instead of peeled on the instruments. Another
common airplane that is fun and highly maneuverable in slow flight is a
C182RG. I think the full flap landing configuration stall speed is 37kts,
but it won't indicate that correctly so the airspeed indicator isn't where
you want your eyes.
Jim

[Gary G]

It would seem to me, that as in anything we wish to be great at, practicing
ANY aspect of flying that you normally don't encounter or do regularly improves
your overall knowledge and skills.
"Proficient" and "Expert" are certainly not the same.

Besides "learning to fly", I play guitar and other instruments.
To become better at playing guitar, I often practice things that aren't
really played in songs when I play a gig. What it does is make me better
at many other things - "mastering" the guitar may be impossible to
a part-time guitar player like me, but pushing myself to do things I might
not has certainly helped me play better.

Whether it is physical or mental, that sort of discipline is, in my opinion, an
outstanding trait and shows a true desire to be as good as you can be.

Now, maybe there are those who don't want tor need to be that good, but "need"
is something you never really know about.

Anectodally, Israeli AF pilots learn about systems and engineering of their jets and planes
to better understand the entire aspect of flying. In a marginally humerous story (from
"Raid on the Sun"), when the Israeli's were learning the F-16 at Hill AFB in Ogen Utah,
they asled so many engineering and systems questions, some suspected them of attempted
espionage, when in fact they were literally just doing things the "way they learned to".
This helped them later modify and affect the Falcons for their raid on the Iraqi nuclear plant.
Interestingly enough, many of their question could not be answered by the USAF pilots and
trainers, and ended up learning a lot of important aspects of the F-16 from the Israelis.
The analogy? Is there such a things as "over preparation"?
Were they better pilots for this. I'd argue yes.

And, in the end, when you're in a commercial plane or in another situation where your
life is in someone else's hands, would you want that pilot to be "proficient", or possibly
"over qualified".

That's my 2 cents . . .

Now I expect people (as usual) to poke holes in everyrthing I wrote, according to the unwritten
Newsgroup laws that exist somewhere. and somehow, someone is going to take it personally
and begin to flame me unconditionally, whereby someone will rise up in my defense and create
a 3-month long posting under this Subject that, in the end, results in life-long animosity between
otherwise respectable people who have a lot in common - ha ha!

[569]

I often like to put the plane into a sharp heawind and slow it to MCA.
If the wind is right, you can get the plan to fly backward. That's
right, negative ground speed.

[Larry Dighera]

On 14 Jan 2005 09:31:02 -0800, wrote in
. com>::

>Take it a step further, while crop dusting, in the turns you are
>frequently very deep in the stall region to the point the stall warning
>is always going off.

II RC, Part 23 specifies that the stall warning indicator is to become
active 5 knots before the stall.

[Trent Moorehead]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Have you ever really taken your aircraft to the bottom edges of its
> flight ability and airspeed, and flown it with any degree of precision
> and of more than just a few moments/minutes?

I had my CFI run through slow flight with me about 2 weeks ago at night.
Made turns with the rudder only at the slowest point, since the ailerons
were way too mushy. Also worked at lifting falling wings with opposite
rudder at stall break.

I agree with you about this being important and that's why I asked my CFI to
work with me on slow flight and stalls.

One thing though, it has been my personal rule to only practice stalls with
an instructor on board. I feel that is reasonable since I am not trained in
spin recovery. I'd be interested in other's opinions on this.

On the subject of "seat of the pants", the first time I flew with my present
instructor, he had me fly patterns without an airspeed indicator. I was
extremely nervous because my primary instructors never did this while I
trained for my private ticket. I found that it was a truly liberating
experience and as a result, I generally fly patterns by feel now.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[Rob Montgomery]

In the Aztec I fly, you can actually hear the relay driving the stall light
clicking on and off when you're on the "hairy edge". It's really subtle, but
once you're used to it, in my experience it's as effective as any horn I've
heard, and it doesn't scare the passengers (OK, OK, I've never tested the
last :-)).

You're absoloutly right about keeping your eyes out of the cockpit...
probably something I should stress more when I teach.

-Rob

"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
> The stall warning light in our Aztec is positioned right behind the yoke
> and
> all but impossible to see during landing, so we don't really pay much
> attention to it or bother to reposition ourselves so it is visible. The
> buffet on the tail when approaching a stall is quite pronounced and easily
> felt through the yoke and the seat of your pants. We keep our eyes
> outside
> and concentrate on the power settings and the landing approach,
> crosschecking the airspeed occasionally. My experience with airplanes
> either without stall warning indicators or airspeed indicators that drop
> to
> 0 in slow flight, thus far, has been limited to a C170B and a SuperCub.
> Both of which are very easy to fly by feel. I think they teach you to
> keep
> your eyes out the windows instead of peeled on the instruments. Another
> common airplane that is fun and highly maneuverable in slow flight is a
> C182RG. I think the full flap landing configuration stall speed is 37kts,
> but it won't indicate that correctly so the airspeed indicator isn't where
> you want your eyes.
> Jim
>
>

[Rob Montgomery]

"Trent Moorehead" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...

>
> One thing though, it has been my personal rule to only practice stalls
> with
> an instructor on board. I feel that is reasonable since I am not trained
> in
> spin recovery. I'd be interested in other's opinions on this.
>

Trent,

If you don't think you could recover from a spin, I would highly recommend
that you get some spin training, and read up on the spin recovery techniques
for your particular aircraft. A spin can happen any time the airplane gets
away from you (not just doing stalls), and knowing how to react is rather
important. Besides, they're an absoloute blast. :-)

Happy flying.

-Rob

[Jim Burns]

> In the Aztec I fly, you can actually hear the relay driving the stall
light
> clicking on and off when you're on the "hairy edge".

I always hear it when I do the pre-flight. (From the front of the left wing
you can look in the cockpit and see the light go on when you lift the stall
warning switch) But I've never tried to listen for that clicking during
stalls or on landing. Next time I go up, I'll give it a try.

Jim

[Jim Burns]

>
> You're absoloutly right about keeping your eyes out of the cockpit...
> probably something I should stress more when I teach.

I did my tailwheel endorsement in a SuperCub. My instructor was a long time
ag-pilot that grew up with airplanes. Because the nose of the SC slants
downward you have to drop the nose below the horizon to recover, so he
taught me to first recover by dropping the nose below the horizon, then
check the wing with the horizon, then go back to the nose. Eyes always
outside comparing your airplane to the horizon. He taught stall entry the
same way, compare the wing to the horizon, learn the attitude, and feel the
airplane. Once you learn the attitude, you can keep it constant and fly
the SC along in and out of a stall all day long with only subtle control
changes.

Jim

[Jim Burns]

If nothing else, learn what a spin is, how it develops, factors that must be
present for a spin to occur, and of course how to recover. One of the best
sources for material on spins is from Rich Stowell. www.richstowell.com I
haven't seen any posts from Rich in awhile, but his videos and books can
help provide you with a thorough understanding of spins before you go up
with an instructor. Remember, CFI's must undergo "spin training" but it is
severely limited. Find an instructor with extensive spin training. I think
I'm only up to about 20 spins so far.

Jim

[Trent Moorehead]

"Rob Montgomery" > wrote in message
...

> If you don't think you could recover from a spin, I would highly recommend
> that you get some spin training, and read up on the spin recovery
techniques
> for your particular aircraft. A spin can happen any time the airplane gets
> away from you (not just doing stalls), and knowing how to react is rather
> important. Besides, they're an absoloute blast. :-)
>
> Happy flying.
>
> -Rob

I know, I know. Without going into a lot of detail and lame excuses, I have
had spins demonstrated for me, but have never recovered from them myself.
You're right, they are a blast.

I think the problem so far has been finding instructors who are comfortable
doing spin training.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[steve.t]

I also fly a PA28 (180C). During pre-departure checklist at night my
wife (sitting in the right seat, and not a pilot) reached up to set the
upper door latch as I got to that part of the checklist. I thought she
had latched it for me. OAT was -5C on the ground.

We were cleared to depart IFR and as I got to 800 AGL and switched
freqs, the upper door seals gave way and wind in the plane became so
bad that I couldn't hold a chart unless I had on gloves (which I
didn't). So I made the mistake of opening the side latch in an attempt
to re-shut the door and get both latches to latch.

Neither latch could be operated at that point, and ATC could hardly
hear me over the wind noise -- and I certainly couldn't hear them.
Thankfully it was VMC (because my approach plates were flying around
the cabit) and I could do an immediate 180.

I was at an IAS of 35MPH with the wheels on the runway before I was
able to get the door shut and the latches done.

I think I want to try this slow flight, at altitude, and see if by
slipping I can get that door shut and latched bottom and top. And would
you suggest using full flaps at that point?

Also, I have several speed mods on this plane, so its actual stall
speed is about 10 MPH less than the stall light is set to come on.
Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

[[email protected]]

steve.t wrote:
>
> I think I want to try this slow flight, at altitude, and see if by
> slipping I can get that door shut and latched bottom and top. And
would
> you suggest using full flaps at that point?
>

I've done this several times in a Cherokee 180 and it works just
fine. Just slow down, extend full flaps and bring the airspeed go just
above the stall (pretend you're doing minimum controllable airspeed on
the private pilot PTS). At that speed, you won't even need to slip.
Just push the door into the (now light) slipstream and give it a firm
pull. It should close without a problem. At that speed, low pressure
will not be exerting much pull on the door and you should be able to
secure the top latch easily.

Caveat : If the door pops with a passenger, I highly recommend that
you have the passenger lean back while you close it yourself. I had a
passenger last year that got over-excited about getting the top latch
closed and he twisted it right off (while latching it in the process).
When we got back to the airport, I had to crawl out the baggage
compartment door and let him out using the exterior latch. The fix
cost about $150 with parts and labor.

[[email protected]]

Trent
That has been a problem for way too long and one reason I maintain our
modern CFI's are getting shorted on their training.
I hope you have good luck finding one for a decent checkout in both
avoidance, and recovery.
Rocky

[rocky]

wrote:
> Have you ever really taken your aircraft to the bottom edges of its
> flight ability and airspeed, and flown it with any degree of precision
> and of more than just a few moments/minutes? Are you comfortable doing
> it on the edge or nibble of a stall? Can you do it while holding
> altitude and desired headings within reasonable limits - depending on
> your experience?
> When is the last time you did it just to sharpen your skills without
> prompting by a CFI in the next seat? When is the last time you spent
> some diligent time doing stalls and the full range of them with your
> aircraft? Are you honestly comfortable with your abilities? I know I
> have to think about it every time I go fly and always find some fault
> with my performance.
> In a previous post it appeared I aggravated some pilots or CFI's with
> saying I felt many pilots didn't know how to fly slowly these days. I
> have seen a slow errosion of what used to be basic pilot skills and
> level of performance with too many pilots compared with acceptable
> standards not that many years ago. Now if that won't open a bucket of
> worms I'll be surprised.
> Fact is, just making the FAA minimums doesn't necessarily make you safe
> or even a good pilot.
> Care to weigh in on the issues?
> I'll be polite in my responses in accordance to the way they are
> presented to me. No axe to grind, no ego to inflate (its big enough
> already thank you) just a sincere desire to make pilots think a little
> more about what they are doing when they go flying. You need to make
> your own mistakes to hopefully learn from them and avoid repetition.
> Ol Shy & Bashful
>
I got my private ticket in 1973. Used to fly an old 150 straight tail
with the drooped tips. I did practice alot on slow flight. With full
flaps (40' in them days) and about 1/2 throttle it would climb at 100FPM
and ZERO indicated airspeed. Makes a great platform for sightseeing!
I think the airspeed was around 50 MPH but never really calculated it.
Rocky

[Larry Dighera]

On 14 Jan 2005 13:27:11 -0800, "steve.t" >
wrote in . com>::

>I also fly a PA28 (180C). During pre-departure checklist at night my
>wife (sitting in the right seat, and not a pilot) reached up to set the
>upper door latch as I got to that part of the checklist. I thought she
>had latched it for me.

I usually give the door a firm shove when that checklist item comes
up. But this time it was warm, and I wanted to wait until cleared to
take the runway before latching the door.

[...]

>I think I want to try this slow flight, at altitude, and see if by
>slipping I can get that door shut and latched bottom and top.

My experience revealed that kicking in a bunch of rudder had no effect
on getting the door to latch. Of course, that may have been due to
the cabin vents being open. It would be interesting to know the
results of your tests.

>And would you suggest using full flaps at that point?

Well, you can fly slower with flaps deployed, and they may add a bit
of stability while mushing along.

>Also, I have several speed mods on this plane, so its actual stall
>speed is about 10 MPH less than the stall light is set to come on.

The reduced stall speed with the indicator still set for the pre-mod
stall speed probably causes you to ignore it most times. I wonder
what the FAA and speed-mod manufacturers recommend?

[Ron Garret]

In article . com>,
" > wrote:

> steve.t wrote:
> >
> > I think I want to try this slow flight, at altitude, and see if by
> > slipping I can get that door shut and latched bottom and top. And
> would
> > you suggest using full flaps at that point?
> >
>
> I've done this several times in a Cherokee 180 and it works just
> fine. Just slow down, extend full flaps and bring the airspeed go just
> above the stall (pretend you're doing minimum controllable airspeed on
> the private pilot PTS). At that speed, you won't even need to slip.
> Just push the door into the (now light) slipstream and give it a firm
> pull. It should close without a problem. At that speed, low pressure
> will not be exerting much pull on the door and you should be able to
> secure the top latch easily.

Has anyone here ever successfully performed (or even attempted) this
maneuver in a Cirrus?

rg

[Dudley Henriques]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Dudley
> Thank you for your reply. On the issue of making mistakes....if a
> pilot
> never makes one, what have they learned that will take care of them
> when the inevitable mistake occurs?
> Certainly our goal is to show pilots how to avoid mistakes but I can't
> divorce myself from the knowledge I learned from all those I have
> made.
> How to get out again safely is the goal isn't it?
> Cheers
> Rocky

I think it has to do with the way you approach both teaching one to fly
and learning to fly, which by the way, I've always considered one in the
same :-)
You are absolutely correct that learning from mistakes is critical. This
is something you ingrain into every new pilot from the gitgo. But
there's another level you can strive to attain, and I believe the sooner
you make the transition from the obvious, (learning from mistakes) into
the development of the mental attitude that defines for you a doctrine
of prevention as your PRIMARY approach to flying, the safer you will be
in the long run.
Just because a pilot is thinking prevention doesn't take him out of the
learning from your mistakes level. That also exists, it just doesn't
exist in the pilot's mental attitude as job one. Job one remains
prevention.
Many pilots never actually manage to make the transition into the
prevention mode, and remain virtually static in the approach they bring
to the flying table. Many fly entire careers without ever REALLY
developing an action rather than reaction mental attitude toward flight
safety.
Your post on developing expertise in the envelope left corner is
actually typical of the prevention approach to flying. I commend you for
using it and attempting to spark a fire under others to do the same. In
my opinion, the prevention approach to flight safety is the only
approach. Never in one's flying career is this more relevant than when
transitioning out of simple airplanes into more high performance
airplanes. Never is this also more relevant than when a pilot begins
doing things with airplanes that require an ever increasing level of
performance.
I believe the mental attitude a pilot develops during his/her initial
phases of flight training will remain with that pilot all through their
career in flying. It's for this reason that the role of the primary
instructor is so important to a new pilot. If the CFI is lacking in
his/her desire to instill in a new pilot the importance of a prevention
approach to flight safety, that omission can have disastrous results
down the road.
In my world of demonstration flying, I have seen 32 of my fellow friends
and professional associates die in accidents. Many of these could have
been prevented.
No...there are many professions in this life where one can afford the
luxury of leaning on axioms like "If I make a mistake, I'll be sure to
learn from it" I just believe that flying airplanes just might not be
the best venue for this type of thinking. I much prefer to turn out a
pilot who's attitude has been drilled into him by my constant reminder
to him that, "You will never reach perfection in your flying, but every
second you spend in the air should be spent TRYING to reach it. Learn
from a mistake by all means, but put your entire effort....your entire
concentration, toward PREVENTING that mistake from happening in the
first place".
Every pilot who has ever been trained by me, ESPECIALLY the instructors,
have left with this drummed into their heads if I've taught them nothing
else.
All the best
Dudley

[dave]

My citabria doesn't have a stall warning device. I never gave it much
thought until I read your post. I can't say that I miss it.
Dave
68 7ECA

Jim Burns wrote:
> .... and have you ever done it in an airplane without a stall warning
> indicator or an airspeed indicator that drops to 0 before your wing quits
> flying?
>
> Jim
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Have you ever really taken your aircraft to the bottom edges of its
>>flight ability and airspeed, and flown it with any degree of precision
>>and of more than just a few moments/minutes? Are you comfortable doing
>>it on the edge or nibble of a stall? Can you do it while holding
>>altitude and desired headings within reasonable limits - depending on
>>your experience?
>
>
>

[Dave Stadt]

"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
> .... and have you ever done it in an airplane without a stall warning
> indicator or an airspeed indicator that drops to 0 before your wing quits
> flying?
>
> Jim

Not a big deal if you know your airplane. My butt and finger tips work
better than a stall warning or the pointer on the airspeed indicator down at
mca.

>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Have you ever really taken your aircraft to the bottom edges of its
> > flight ability and airspeed, and flown it with any degree of precision
> > and of more than just a few moments/minutes? Are you comfortable doing
> > it on the edge or nibble of a stall? Can you do it while holding
> > altitude and desired headings within reasonable limits - depending on
> > your experience?
>
>

[Rob Montgomery]

"Trent Moorehead" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rob Montgomery" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> If you don't think you could recover from a spin, I would highly
>> recommend
>> that you get some spin training, and read up on the spin recovery
> techniques
>> for your particular aircraft. A spin can happen any time the airplane
>> gets
>> away from you (not just doing stalls), and knowing how to react is rather
>> important. Besides, they're an absoloute blast. :-)
>>
>> Happy flying.
>>
>> -Rob
>
> I know, I know. Without going into a lot of detail and lame excuses, I
> have
> had spins demonstrated for me, but have never recovered from them myself.
> You're right, they are a blast.
>
> I think the problem so far has been finding instructors who are
> comfortable
> doing spin training.
>
> -Trent
> PP-ASEL
>

Where abouts are you? Someone may know of a good place. If all else fails,
ask a few CFI's where they did their spin training. Unfortunately, a lot of
schools (the one I work at included) have to prohibit spins in their
aircraft due to the price of new gyros. :-( Consequently, CFI spin training
is usually outsourced.

-Rob

[Dave Stadt]

"Trent Moorehead" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Have you ever really taken your aircraft to the bottom edges of its
> > flight ability and airspeed, and flown it with any degree of precision
> > and of more than just a few moments/minutes?
>
> I had my CFI run through slow flight with me about 2 weeks ago at night.
> Made turns with the rudder only at the slowest point, since the ailerons
> were way too mushy. Also worked at lifting falling wings with opposite
> rudder at stall break.
>
> I agree with you about this being important and that's why I asked my CFI
to
> work with me on slow flight and stalls.
>
> One thing though, it has been my personal rule to only practice stalls
with
> an instructor on board. I feel that is reasonable since I am not trained
in
> spin recovery. I'd be interested in other's opinions on this.
>
> On the subject of "seat of the pants", the first time I flew with my
present
> instructor, he had me fly patterns without an airspeed indicator. I was
> extremely nervous because my primary instructors never did this while I
> trained for my private ticket. I found that it was a truly liberating
> experience and as a result, I generally fly patterns by feel now.
>
> -Trent
> PP-ASEL


What is being talked about here is much slower that what is currently being
taught as slow flight.

[[email protected]]

Hey Rocky!!!
Now there are two of us here so I guess I'd better stick with either
SelwayKid, or Ol Shy & Bashful just to avoid confusion.
Rocky Kemp

[[email protected]]

What is fun is using that same set of conditions, and landing with
virtually zero ground roll. I've won more than a few beers that I could
land and stop short within the wingspan of the airplane (C150-172).
Selway Kid

[gregg]

Rob Montgomery wrote:

> Where abouts are you? Someone may know of a good place. If all else fails,
> ask a few CFI's where they did their spin training. Unfortunately, a lot
> of schools (the one I work at included) have to prohibit spins in their
> aircraft due to the price of new gyros. :-( Consequently, CFI spin
> training is usually outsourced.
>
> -Rob

No spin training where I got my PPL, so I visited a friend - exF4, F16 and
CFI - who was happy to train me in spins. I had heard that you can't spin
150's due to the gyros, but that was 25 years prior to my spin training. So
I asked him about it and he said it was not a problem - now give me a 4
turn spin (this in a 152).....

So I must need more info about this gyro limitation to truly understand
it....What conditions/gyro/airplane etc. should one avoid doing spins to
prevent gyro problems?

thanks

--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

[zatatime]

On 14 Jan 2005 21:31:49 -0800, wrote:

>What is fun is using that same set of conditions, and landing with
>virtually zero ground roll. I've won more than a few beers that I could
>land and stop short within the wingspan of the airplane (C150-172).
>Selway Kid


Care to elaborate? I've not pushed that far into the envelop,
especially close to the ground, and would think a 150 wouldn't have
enough power to hang on the prop without a high descent rate.

I did get to be in the plane (J-3) once with one of the people I most
respect in aviation (and know personally) where from 2000 feet, he
entered a slip, asked me where I wanted the plane, and flew - in the
slip, and I swear below stall speed - all the way to the ground and
put the plane right on the mark I asked for. It was one of the most
amazing demonstrations of flying I'd ever seen....Even better than his
no hands landings.

I only offer the story thinking perhaps you're technique is somewhat
similar.

TIA for any response.
z

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
> On 14 Jan 2005 21:31:49 -0800, wrote:
>
> >What is fun is using that same set of conditions, and landing with
> >virtually zero ground roll. I've won more than a few beers that I could
> >land and stop short within the wingspan of the airplane (C150-172).
> >Selway Kid
>
> Care to elaborate? I've not pushed that far into the envelop,
> especially close to the ground, and would think a 150 wouldn't have
> enough power to hang on the prop without a high descent rate.
>

My CFI's done this in my 172 which probably has a power/weight ratio close
to the 150's. It's about the difference between MCA and wind speed. A 172
with two people and no bags can probably stall power-on around 40kts. I
don't know the speed exactly but it is quite slow. If the wind is blowing
30kts you can put it down on the ground at less than 15mph groundspeed. Then
stand on the brakes and turn off at the runway entrance, for a landing roll
of about 100'. With higher windspeeds you could do it in less.

My current instructor is kind of like your friend- thousands of hours in
172s and flies them like he's part bird. It is a beautiful thing to behold.

-cwk.

[[email protected]]

Z
Think about it....the airplane cares not about the wind...only how fast
its going thru the air! If you have the aircraft slowed to say 40 IAS
regardless of how you arrived at that steady speed, and you have a 40kt
wind blowing, you can literally hover over one spot. If you continue to
descend using power for your altitude control, you should be able to
maneuver the aircraft to the desired touchdown spot, reduce the power
and touchdown with no forward roll or drama.
How else can you make a really REALLY short field landing unless a wind
is blowing?
I enjoy flying a 180 slip to a touchdown on a spot from abeam in the
pattern. Lots of fun and good practice. I get a lot of satisfaction
doing it in a Stearman in particular.
I've won a lot of wagers doing the no hands landings usually in the
C-172 with judicious use of power and trim for pitch, and of course
rudder for directional. That too is rather simple once you have been in
the airplane to see how it's done.
Thanks and Cheers
Ol Shy & Bashful

[[email protected]]

Trent
You'd be surprised how many pilots have never tried flying without the
ASI. I often cover it up and assign a speed to show them they can get
pretty close (within 5) just by sound. I learned that from my primary
instructor in the 50's. Later I tried the same thing with the altimeter
in the pattern and was quite surprised at how close you can get there
too.
No reason not to learn something new all the time and add it to your
bag of tricks and skills. Never know when it might save your life?!
Enjoy your flying time. Nothing else like it and you are part of a very
special group of people.
Cheers
Ol S&B

[[email protected]]

Gregg
Back 25 years ago, the gyros would tumble at extreme attitudes which
caused undue wear and tear on them...thus, the avoidance of regular
spins and training. Now the gyros are much more advanced and can
withstand the attitudes without tearing them up. Oddly enough, they are
now called Non-Tumble gyros.....
It has been my experience flight schools avoid the spin training
because they have few who are capable of doing it safely or their
insurance company precludes it. Might be a combination of the two but I
think its more the lack of ability or perhaps fear? on the part of the
CFI's. Even the schools who had the C150 "Aerobat" only had one or two
CFI's who were allowed to do spins with them. I thnk its a damned
shame.
Cheers
Ol S&B

[MLenoch]

>If the wind is blowing
>30kts you can put it down on the ground at less than 15mph groundspeed.

Ever slower/shorter with the doors open. It is fun to backup traffic on final
with both doors open as speed brakes. Both front seaters need to coordinate the
door 'extension' angle to balance the lateral drag.
VL

[gregg]

wrote:

S&B,

> Gregg
> Back 25 years ago, the gyros would tumble at extreme attitudes which
> caused undue wear and tear on them...thus, the avoidance of regular
> spins and training. Now the gyros are much more advanced and can
> withstand the attitudes without tearing them up. Oddly enough, they are
> now called Non-Tumble gyros.....

Ah I see. Thanks for the explanation.

> It has been my experience flight schools avoid the spin training
> because they have few who are capable of doing it safely or their
> insurance company precludes it. Might be a combination of the two but I
> think its more the lack of ability or perhaps fear? on the part of the
> CFI's. Even the schools who had the C150 "Aerobat" only had one or two
> CFI's who were allowed to do spins with them. I thnk its a damned
> shame.

Not sure of the reason, around here, though there are heavy discussions
about it in various flying magazines. One was in the AOPA Flight Training
mag in the latter half of last year. Sometimes the debate gets heated, in
the newsgroups.

But I figured if I wasn't going to get it for my PPL training I'd go out
and get it for myself. So I did.


thanks

> Cheers
> Ol S&B

--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

[Blueskies]

"zatatime" > wrote in message ...
> On 14 Jan 2005 21:31:49 -0800, wrote:
>
>>What is fun is using that same set of conditions, and landing with
>>virtually zero ground roll. I've won more than a few beers that I could
>>land and stop short within the wingspan of the airplane (C150-172).
>>Selway Kid
>
>
> Care to elaborate? I've not pushed that far into the envelop,
> especially close to the ground, and would think a 150 wouldn't have
> enough power to hang on the prop without a high descent rate.
>

You are not hanging on the prop, you are opposing the headwind. It all depends on where you are in the drag bucket. If
the wind was strong enough, you could 'cruise' backwards...

> I did get to be in the plane (J-3) once with one of the people I most
> respect in aviation (and know personally) where from 2000 feet, he
> entered a slip, asked me where I wanted the plane, and flew - in the
> slip, and I swear below stall speed - all the way to the ground and
> put the plane right on the mark I asked for. It was one of the most
> amazing demonstrations of flying I'd ever seen....Even better than his
> no hands landings.
>
> I only offer the story thinking perhaps you're technique is somewhat
> similar.
>
> TIA for any response.
> z

Nose into the Santa Anna winds out in California, blowing at 45 at least. Full flaps and a C-150. It is fun to try and
do a turn around a point, staying at 2500 agl or so.

[Blueskies]

"Jim Burns" > wrote in message ...
> Jay has a mpg on his site of a SuperCub landing extremely short. It's worth
> a look.
> http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/SuperCubLand.mpg
> Jim
>

Does that Cub have drooped ailerons?

[Jim Burns]

Jay has a mpg on his site of a SuperCub landing extremely short. It's worth
a look.
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/SuperCubLand.mpg
Jim

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Z
> Think about it....the airplane cares not about the wind...only how fast
> its going thru the air! If you have the aircraft slowed to say 40 IAS
> regardless of how you arrived at that steady speed, and you have a 40kt
> wind blowing, you can literally hover over one spot. If you continue to
> descend using power for your altitude control, you should be able to
> maneuver the aircraft to the desired touchdown spot, reduce the power
> and touchdown with no forward roll or drama.
> How else can you make a really REALLY short field landing unless a wind
> is blowing?
> I enjoy flying a 180 slip to a touchdown on a spot from abeam in the
> pattern. Lots of fun and good practice. I get a lot of satisfaction
> doing it in a Stearman in particular.
> I've won a lot of wagers doing the no hands landings usually in the
> C-172 with judicious use of power and trim for pitch, and of course
> rudder for directional. That too is rather simple once you have been in
> the airplane to see how it's done.
> Thanks and Cheers
> Ol Shy & Bashful
>

[Dave]

Hmmm...

I cam confirm, today, 2500 ft, OAT was -10C, pwr on, 20 deg
flap, stall was just under 40knts indicated.

Tanks (stnd) were full 1/2 hr before, I was alone (155lbs)

Was practising slow flight figure eight's with the stall horn
blaring.

Found myself in "reverse control" region...

Ever try that?

Dave


On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 19:07:20 GMT, "Colin W Kingsbury"
> wrote:

>"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
>> On 14 Jan 2005 21:31:49 -0800, wrote:
>>
>> >What is fun is using that same set of conditions, and landing with
>> >virtually zero ground roll. I've won more than a few beers that I could
>> >land and stop short within the wingspan of the airplane (C150-172).
>> >Selway Kid
>>
>> Care to elaborate? I've not pushed that far into the envelop,
>> especially close to the ground, and would think a 150 wouldn't have
>> enough power to hang on the prop without a high descent rate.
>>
>
>My CFI's done this in my 172 which probably has a power/weight ratio close
>to the 150's. It's about the difference between MCA and wind speed. A 172
>with two people and no bags can probably stall power-on around 40kts. I
>don't know the speed exactly but it is quite slow. If the wind is blowing
>30kts you can put it down on the ground at less than 15mph groundspeed. Then
>stand on the brakes and turn off at the runway entrance, for a landing roll
>of about 100'. With higher windspeeds you could do it in less.
>
>My current instructor is kind of like your friend- thousands of hours in
>172s and flies them like he's part bird. It is a beautiful thing to behold.
>
>-cwk.
>

[zatatime]

On 15 Jan 2005 11:45:57 -0800, wrote:

>Z
>Think about it....
Yep, that didn't happen before the post.


>the airplane cares not about the wind...only how fast
>its going thru the air! If you have the aircraft slowed to say 40 IAS
>regardless of how you arrived at that steady speed, and you have a 40kt
>wind blowing, you can literally hover over one spot. If you continue to
>descend using power for your altitude control, you should be able to
>maneuver the aircraft to the desired touchdown spot, reduce the power
>and touchdown with no forward roll or drama.
Understood. I've gone backwards on a good windy day before, so I
should've known better.

>How else can you make a really REALLY short field landing unless a wind
>is blowing?

You can't.

Thanks for the patience.
z

[zatatime]

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 19:07:20 GMT, "Colin W Kingsbury"
> wrote:

>My current instructor is kind of like your friend- thousands of hours in
>172s and flies them like he's part bird. It is a beautiful thing to behold.


Agreed. Having someone like that to watch, is a great experience.

z

[Cub Driver]

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:31:42 GMT, zatatime > wrote:

>asked me where I wanted the plane, and flew - in the
>slip, and I swear below stall speed

Nice story. Yesterday I flew the Cub after a four-week layoff
(weather) so worked on t.o. & landings. For some reason I was always
high / close-in on final, so I did a lot of slipping.

Indeed, I had the feeling that I controlled the plane in all three
dimensions, and could have planted it anywhere within a 200-foot
square at the south end of the runway. And I was starting from say 600
feet.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 07:02:39 -0500, gregg > wrote:

>So I must need more info about this gyro limitation to truly understand
>it....What conditions/gyro/airplane etc. should one avoid doing spins to
>prevent gyro problems?

I don't know the answer, but I can confirm it's a practice. Three
years ago I went out to Chandler AZ for spin training. I wanted to do
it in one of their PA-18s, rather than the Great Lakes that they
normally use for aerobatic work, but they refused on the grounds that
the Super Cubs had gyros.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[mike regish]

I do that a lot. I have a Tripacer and it flies slow really well. I can pin
the airspeed indicator and still be in very controllable flight. I like to
do that on my motorcycle, too. In fact, there are slow races on motorcycles
where the LAST one over the finish line without touching their feet is the
winner. These are much more difficult than the fast races. Anybody can go
fast, and anybody can fly fast (up to a point). I also like to go out on
fairly windy days and get faced into the wind, turn on the GPS and see how
low a ground speed I can get. I've gotten into the low 30's, but I know I
can do better.

mike regish

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Have you ever really taken your aircraft to the bottom edges of its
> flight ability and airspeed, and flown it with any degree of precision
> and of more than just a few moments/minutes? Are you comfortable doing
> it on the edge or nibble of a stall? Can you do it while holding
> altitude and desired headings within reasonable limits - depending on
> your experience?

[mike regish]

Yep. My Tripacer.

mike regish

"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...

> .... and have you ever done it in an airplane without a stall warning
> indicator or an airspeed indicator that drops to 0 before your wing quits
> flying?
>
> Jim

[Blueskies]

"Jim Burns" > wrote in message ...
>
>> Does that Cub have drooped ailerons?
>
> It has drooped wingtips and regular flaps. Notice how he dumps the flaps
> just before touchdown.
>
> Jim
>
>

Good thing he didn't grab the switch! :-)

[mike regish]

I've heard of CFI's who cannot identify the magnetos. That's just sad.

mike regish

"Gary G" > wrote in message
...

> Anectodally, Israeli AF pilots learn about systems and engineering of
> their jets and planes
> to better understand the entire aspect of flying. In a marginally humerous
> story (from
> "Raid on the Sun"), when the Israeli's were learning the F-16 at Hill AFB
> in Ogen Utah,
> they asled so many engineering and systems questions, some suspected them
> of attempted
> espionage, when in fact they were literally just doing things the "way
> they learned to".
> This helped them later modify and affect the Falcons for their raid on the
> Iraqi nuclear plant.
> Interestingly enough, many of their question could not be answered by the
> USAF pilots and
> trainers, and ended up learning a lot of important aspects of the F-16
> from the Israelis.
> The analogy? Is there such a things as "over preparation"?
> Were they better pilots for this. I'd argue yes.

[Jim Burns]

> Does that Cub have drooped ailerons?

It has drooped wingtips and regular flaps. Notice how he dumps the flaps
just before touchdown.

Jim

[ShawnD2112]

Good for you, Gregg! I did the same thing as I figured the FAA were
dificient in not requiring it. It was the best thing I ever did. It
eliminated a fear of an unknown which, up until that point had been the
aviation equivelant of a big black box marked "DEATH". After the my first
spin with an instructor I knew they could be handled properly - I just had
to learn how. I spin the Pitts on a regular basis now, just to stay in
practice.

As to what you can and can't spin and why, if the placard says "Intentional
Spinning Prohibited" don't spin it. If no placard, read the POH and see
what it says. If it's allowed, learn how to spin it, whatever "it" is.

My .02 worth

Shawn
"gregg" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
> S&B,
>
>> Gregg
>> Back 25 years ago, the gyros would tumble at extreme attitudes which
>> caused undue wear and tear on them...thus, the avoidance of regular
>> spins and training. Now the gyros are much more advanced and can
>> withstand the attitudes without tearing them up. Oddly enough, they are
>> now called Non-Tumble gyros.....
>
> Ah I see. Thanks for the explanation.
>
>> It has been my experience flight schools avoid the spin training
>> because they have few who are capable of doing it safely or their
>> insurance company precludes it. Might be a combination of the two but I
>> think its more the lack of ability or perhaps fear? on the part of the
>> CFI's. Even the schools who had the C150 "Aerobat" only had one or two
>> CFI's who were allowed to do spins with them. I thnk its a damned
>> shame.
>
> Not sure of the reason, around here, though there are heavy discussions
> about it in various flying magazines. One was in the AOPA Flight Training
> mag in the latter half of last year. Sometimes the debate gets heated, in
> the newsgroups.
>
> But I figured if I wasn't going to get it for my PPL training I'd go out
> and get it for myself. So I did.
>
>
> thanks
>
>> Cheers
>> Ol S&B
>
> --
> Saville
>
> Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html
>
> Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm
>
> Steambending FAQ with photos:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm
>

[ShawnD2112]

In a similar vein, I've got a mate who, when the wind is high enough and
from the right direction, will land our Taylorcaft ACROSS the runway. He
often has enough room to take back off again from the same point without
reversing. Mind you, the Tcraft stalls at about 35 mph.

Shawn
> wrote in message
oups.com...
> What is fun is using that same set of conditions, and landing with
> virtually zero ground roll. I've won more than a few beers that I could
> land and stop short within the wingspan of the airplane (C150-172).
> Selway Kid
>

[Blueskies]

"ShawnD2112" > wrote in message . uk...
> In a similar vein, I've got a mate who, when the wind is high enough and from the right direction, will land our
> Taylorcaft ACROSS the runway. He often has enough room to take back off again from the same point without reversing.
> Mind you, the Tcraft stalls at about 35 mph.
>


That runway is really short....yea, but it is also really, really wide!

[ShawnD2112]

Ol,
I agree completely with what you're saying and it's a lesson I accidentally
learned way back in my basic training in C150s. While doing touch and goes
one day, the flap indicator decided to go on vacation and, if you remember,
the 150s didn't have a stepped switch so you held the toggle in "down" until
the flaps were where you wanted them then released the switch. I started to
drop the flaps and I knew that at 20 degrees the airplane gave a certain
creak and the attitude changed just so. When the airplane did these things,
I released the switch. Unbeknownst to me, the indicator had come back to
life and, flying it only by feel, I'd nailed 20 degrees smack on! That's
when I learned that you can actually fly airplanes by feel and get it pretty
darn close.

Flying a Supercub pretty regularly, I then learned how to fly it without
needing to refer to the tacho or airspeed indicator. I always did as a
double check, but I'd make the adjustment by ear while looking outside at
what I was doing, then just dip my eyes to the instrument to double check.
Nine times out of ten, you're going to get it close enough when you know the
airplane. It's a fun and rewarding way to fly when you suddenly realize
you're almost breathing with the machine!

Shawn





> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Trent
> You'd be surprised how many pilots have never tried flying without the
> ASI. I often cover it up and assign a speed to show them they can get
> pretty close (within 5) just by sound. I learned that from my primary
> instructor in the 50's. Later I tried the same thing with the altimeter
> in the pattern and was quite surprised at how close you can get there
> too.
> No reason not to learn something new all the time and add it to your
> bag of tricks and skills. Never know when it might save your life?!
> Enjoy your flying time. Nothing else like it and you are part of a very
> special group of people.
> Cheers
> Ol S&B
>

[Morgans]

"ShawnD2112" > wrote in message
. uk...
> In a similar vein, I've got a mate who, when the wind is high enough and
> from the right direction, will land our Taylorcaft ACROSS the runway. He
> often has enough room to take back off again from the same point without
> reversing. Mind you, the Tcraft stalls at about 35 mph.


So what does his pattern look like? Missing one leg, or adding a buttonhook
turn?
--
Jim in NC

[gregg]

ShawnD2112 wrote:


> As to what you can and can't spin and why, if the placard says
> "Intentional
> Spinning Prohibited" don't spin it. If no placard, read the POH and see
> what it says. If it's allowed, learn how to spin it, whatever "it" is.

That's my plan. Can't spin the Warrior so for now I'll have to limit it to
the 152. I started getting a taildragger endorsement a month ago but gave
it up as the weather was just too unpredictable for the J-3.

So I'll pick that back up in the Spring. From there it'll be aerobatics.

Til then..I have lots of work to do in the Warrior.

thanks for the $.02 ;^)

Gregg

>
> My .02 worth
>
> Shawn
> "gregg" > wrote in message
> ...
>> wrote:
>>
>> S&B,
>>
>>> Gregg
>>> Back 25 years ago, the gyros would tumble at extreme attitudes which
>>> caused undue wear and tear on them...thus, the avoidance of regular
>>> spins and training. Now the gyros are much more advanced and can
>>> withstand the attitudes without tearing them up. Oddly enough, they are
>>> now called Non-Tumble gyros.....
>>
>> Ah I see. Thanks for the explanation.
>>
>>> It has been my experience flight schools avoid the spin training
>>> because they have few who are capable of doing it safely or their
>>> insurance company precludes it. Might be a combination of the two but I
>>> think its more the lack of ability or perhaps fear? on the part of the
>>> CFI's. Even the schools who had the C150 "Aerobat" only had one or two
>>> CFI's who were allowed to do spins with them. I thnk its a damned
>>> shame.
>>
>> Not sure of the reason, around here, though there are heavy discussions
>> about it in various flying magazines. One was in the AOPA Flight Training
>> mag in the latter half of last year. Sometimes the debate gets heated, in
>> the newsgroups.
>>
>> But I figured if I wasn't going to get it for my PPL training I'd go out
>> and get it for myself. So I did.
>>
>>
>> thanks
>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Ol S&B
>>
>> --
>> Saville
>>
>> Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:
>>
>> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html
>>
>> Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:
>>
>> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm
>>
>> Steambending FAQ with photos:
>>
>> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm
>>

--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

[ShawnD2112]

I think when you're doing those kinds of things you're not really working a
standard pattern. Mind you, he's very careful about what other traffic is
in the area.

We used to do a competition on really quiet summer evenings when the wind
dropped to near-zero and there wasn't a soul around but us. Our airport has
10 runways (3 hard, 2 grass, both ways) and we used to see how fast we could
touch and go on all 10. I think we got it down to about 2 mins. Now that
was great fun!!

Shawn

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ShawnD2112" > wrote in message
> . uk...
>> In a similar vein, I've got a mate who, when the wind is high enough and
>> from the right direction, will land our Taylorcaft ACROSS the runway. He
>> often has enough room to take back off again from the same point without
>> reversing. Mind you, the Tcraft stalls at about 35 mph.
>
>
> So what does his pattern look like? Missing one leg, or adding a
> buttonhook
> turn?
> --
> Jim in NC
>
>

[ShawnD2112]

My pleasure. It sounds like you're getting into exactly my kind of flying.
I just found a niche with vintage taildraggers and aerobatics. I don't
have any interest in flying anything with "systems", no interest in IFR,
hell even flaps are too complicated for me at this point. I like my
airplanes low, slow, and old. But that's just me. You'll find the kind of
flying you really want to do, and it sounds like you've got a real head
start. Keep it up! The J-3, by the way, is a wonderful little machine.
See if you can get any Taylorcraft time while you're at it!

Shawn

"gregg" > wrote in message
...
> ShawnD2112 wrote:
>
>
>> As to what you can and can't spin and why, if the placard says
>> "Intentional
>> Spinning Prohibited" don't spin it. If no placard, read the POH and see
>> what it says. If it's allowed, learn how to spin it, whatever "it" is.
>
> That's my plan. Can't spin the Warrior so for now I'll have to limit it to
> the 152. I started getting a taildragger endorsement a month ago but gave
> it up as the weather was just too unpredictable for the J-3.
>
> So I'll pick that back up in the Spring. From there it'll be aerobatics.
>
> Til then..I have lots of work to do in the Warrior.
>
> thanks for the $.02 ;^)
>
> Gregg
>
>>
>> My .02 worth
>>
>> Shawn
>> "gregg" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> S&B,
>>>
>>>> Gregg
>>>> Back 25 years ago, the gyros would tumble at extreme attitudes which
>>>> caused undue wear and tear on them...thus, the avoidance of regular
>>>> spins and training. Now the gyros are much more advanced and can
>>>> withstand the attitudes without tearing them up. Oddly enough, they are
>>>> now called Non-Tumble gyros.....
>>>
>>> Ah I see. Thanks for the explanation.
>>>
>>>> It has been my experience flight schools avoid the spin training
>>>> because they have few who are capable of doing it safely or their
>>>> insurance company precludes it. Might be a combination of the two but I
>>>> think its more the lack of ability or perhaps fear? on the part of the
>>>> CFI's. Even the schools who had the C150 "Aerobat" only had one or two
>>>> CFI's who were allowed to do spins with them. I thnk its a damned
>>>> shame.
>>>
>>> Not sure of the reason, around here, though there are heavy discussions
>>> about it in various flying magazines. One was in the AOPA Flight
>>> Training
>>> mag in the latter half of last year. Sometimes the debate gets heated,
>>> in
>>> the newsgroups.
>>>
>>> But I figured if I wasn't going to get it for my PPL training I'd go out
>>> and get it for myself. So I did.
>>>
>>>
>>> thanks
>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Ol S&B
>>>
>>> --
>>> Saville
>>>
>>> Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:
>>>
>>> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html
>>>
>>> Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:
>>>
>>> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm
>>>
>>> Steambending FAQ with photos:
>>>
>>> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm
>>>
>
> --
> Saville
>
> Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html
>
> Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm
>
> Steambending FAQ with photos:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm
>

[[email protected]]

Yep,

I do that often.
If I like to show my passenger something on the ground I point my plane
into the wind and "park" it.
Sometimes even fly backward.

-Kees

[[email protected]]

Kees
Shucks....I do that all the time in helicopters!! <GGG>
Ol SOB