RE:3 lives lost

[nobody]

preliminary NTSB report is available for this accident.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20050114X00050&key=1

[Denny]

Darwin award!

While we are on the topic of stupidity, did everyone notice that the
military managed to t-bone another GA plane yesterday, killing the GA
pilot, while the intrepid combat pilots parachuted to safety..

Denny

[[email protected]]

Denny
Can't forget the Ag Cat that was run over, from behind, at about
200'agl in eastern WA state about 10 years ago. The military concluded
it was the ag pilots fault for being there. He was flying in an area
during normal ag flying operations, during the normal growing season,
doing what goes on every year at the same time and place...and yet the
military said he was in the wrong? I'm VERY PRO MILITARY but they were
flat wrong in that one as they are in many others vs general aviation.
I did ag flying in the Columbia Basin and often saw the military flying
on published routes doing what was advertised, and I also saw them
doing things that were outright hazardous and unthinking. Can't help
but think it was individuals, as PIC, who diverted from published
procedures. When you expect to see heavies low and not so slow...like
500'agl, I can live with it and avoid their operational zone with no
heartburn. When they drop down to 200'agl it concerns me as they depart
from published procedures and no warning to working slobs like me. I
ferry back and forth to my base at 200'agl.
Damned shame for all concerned when someone gets killed but even worse
when the military tries to cover it up and claim the genav pilot is to
blame.
Ol S&B

[[email protected]]

Denny wrote:
> Darwin award!
>
> While we are on the topic of stupidity, did everyone notice that the
> military managed to t-bone another GA plane yesterday, killing the GA
> pilot, while the intrepid combat pilots parachuted to safety..
>
> Denny

First off, they (the T-37 crew) were probably an instructor and a
student. Secondly, what would you have done, stayed in the airplane
and die? Did the accident happen in a MOA? On another board the GA
aircraft was noted as a crop duster and the accident occurred at 5000
feet. 5 grand is pretty high for a crop duster--maybe he wasn't used
to clearing for planes up high.

I'd say you're fairly competitive in the Darwin award race--you have my
vote.

Tim

[OtisWinslow]

The plane was in an Alert area marked "Intensive Student Training" and it
was flying at 5000ft. It's on the map. Find out if it's hot before venturing
around in it. The military pilots were doing what they do in the area
reserved for them to do it in.



"Denny" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Darwin award!
>
> While we are on the topic of stupidity, did everyone notice that the
> military managed to t-bone another GA plane yesterday, killing the GA
> pilot, while the intrepid combat pilots parachuted to safety..
>
> Denny
>

[houstondan]

fwiw...my news (ap) had it as a new duster being ferried from the
factory to the customer; thus the 5k.

dan

[Peter MacPherson]

Do you have a link for this?

Pete

"Denny" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Darwin award!
>
> While we are on the topic of stupidity, did everyone notice that the
> military managed to t-bone another GA plane yesterday, killing the GA
> pilot, while the intrepid combat pilots parachuted to safety..
>
> Denny
>

[Jay Beckman]

"OtisWinslow" > wrote in message
...
> The plane was in an Alert area marked "Intensive Student Training" and it
> was flying at 5000ft. It's on the map. Find out if it's hot before
> venturing
> around in it. The military pilots were doing what they do in the area
> reserved for them to do it in.
>
>

"Alert Areas" don't run Hot/Cold do they?

I thought they were there because of the *constant* volume of traffic and
they are "See and Avoid" for everyone?

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[Michael]

OtisWinslow wrote:
> The plane was in an Alert area marked "Intensive Student Training"
and it
> was flying at 5000ft. It's on the map. Find out if it's hot before
venturing
> around in it.

In general, Alert Areas have no air-to-ground communication. There is
no effective way to know if it is hot.

Michael

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Beckman wrote:
>
> "Alert Areas" don't run Hot/Cold do they?
>
> I thought they were there because of the *constant* volume of traffic and
> they are "See and Avoid" for everyone?

That's my understanding.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[gatt]

> wrote in message

> I did ag flying in the Columbia Basin

How did you get involved with that? If I never flew outside of the
Columbia River region, I still wouldn't get tired of it!

-gattman
PP-ASEL-IA
Troutdale, OR

[[email protected]]

Michael wrote:
>
> In general, Alert Areas have no air-to-ground communication. There
is
> no effective way to know if it is hot.
>

Most of the Alert Areas that I'm familiar with are co-located with a
base that does intensive training. As far as I know, they're always
considered hot.

Perhaps other areas of the country are different, but I haven't yet
run across an alert area that didn't have a frequency you could call to
get advisories within the Alert Area.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Jay Beckman]

"Michael" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> OtisWinslow wrote:
>> The plane was in an Alert area marked "Intensive Student Training"
> and it
>> was flying at 5000ft. It's on the map. Find out if it's hot before
> venturing
>> around in it.
>
> In general, Alert Areas have no air-to-ground communication. There is
> no effective way to know if it is hot.
>
> Michael
>

I was on a XC from Chandler, AZ to Yuma, AZ a couple of weeks back and my
route took me across the preferred north/south route from Luke AFB to the
R-XXXX areas that make up the bulk of the Goldwater bombing range south and
west of Phoenix.

I was just about to Gila Bend, getting traffic advisories from the
controlers at Luke and I found it interesting that I could also hear traffic
calls that were being made to the flights of F16s that were passing over the
top of me. I guess they must multiplex or piggyback the UHF radios on the
VHF band or vice versa.

It's still one of my favorite things to report "Cessna 564 has the flight of
four in sight."

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[Jay Beckman]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Michael wrote:
>>
>> In general, Alert Areas have no air-to-ground communication. There
> is
>> no effective way to know if it is hot.
>>
>
> Most of the Alert Areas that I'm familiar with are co-located with a
> base that does intensive training. As far as I know, they're always
> considered hot.
>
> Perhaps other areas of the country are different, but I haven't yet
> run across an alert area that didn't have a frequency you could call to
> get advisories within the Alert Area.
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>

Luke AFB has VHF freqs listed for doing just that, don't they John?

Jay B

[[email protected]]

Hey
I have been an ag pilot for hmmmm...since 1966. I was flying out of
Moses Lake in the mid 90's with a turbine Thrush. There is a cargo drop
zone WSW of Moses Lake in the Potholes region where I sprayed a lot of
alfalfa. I enjoyed watching the 141's come over and drop pallets under
canopy. A few times I saw individual troops under canopy, probably
getting in their jump pay drops.
South of Napavine WA is a route following the river east (either the
Cowlitz or the Toutle) and I have seen some exotic aircraft going thru
there like a bat out of hell. Can't forget the time I saw what looked
like a Concorde at about 500'agl going east on the river. Couldn't get
my camera out fast enough to get a shot of it with Mt St Helens in the
background. Still not sure what it was as it was so startling and only
in view for about :10 sec. I was flying a helicopter at the time.
Ol S&B

[[email protected]]

Jay Beckman wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >>
> >
> > Most of the Alert Areas that I'm familiar with are co-located with
a
> > base that does intensive training. As far as I know, they're
always
> > considered hot.
> >
> > Perhaps other areas of the country are different, but I haven't yet
> > run across an alert area that didn't have a frequency you could
call to
> > get advisories within the Alert Area.
> > John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
> >
>
> Luke AFB has VHF freqs listed for doing just that, don't they John?
>
Yep. You call Luke Approach. There are boxes around the Alert Area
on the sectional that give you the frequency.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Blueskies]

"OtisWinslow" > wrote in message ...
> The plane was in an Alert area marked "Intensive Student Training" and it
> was flying at 5000ft. It's on the map. Find out if it's hot before venturing
> around in it. The military pilots were doing what they do in the area
> reserved for them to do it in.
>
>

The airspace is not reserved for them to do it in. That is what the restricted areas are for. It is joint use
airspace...

[[email protected]]

Jay Beckman wrote:
> "OtisWinslow" > wrote in message
> ...
> > The plane was in an Alert area marked "Intensive Student Training"
and it
> > was flying at 5000ft. It's on the map. Find out if it's hot before
> > venturing
> > around in it. The military pilots were doing what they do in the
area
> > reserved for them to do it in.
> >
> >
>
> "Alert Areas" don't run Hot/Cold do they?
>
> I thought they were there because of the *constant* volume of traffic
and
> they are "See and Avoid" for everyone?
>

Alert Area A-561 ends at 4000' MSL. The Air Tractor was northbound, and
if indeed he was at 5000', that puts him at 1000' above the celing of
the alert area. Curious, if the ag plane were cruising at 5000' then I
wonder if he was on an instrument flight plan, otherwise if VFR, he
should've been 4500 or 5500 depending on course heading.

[Dave Stadt]

"OtisWinslow" > wrote in message
...
> The plane was in an Alert area marked "Intensive Student Training" and it
> was flying at 5000ft. It's on the map. Find out if it's hot before
venturing
> around in it. The military pilots were doing what they do in the area
> reserved for them to do it in.

Military pilots have areas set aside for killing civilian pilots?
Interesting.

[BTIZ]

you mean the GA plane managed to T-bone another military aircraft?

Flame on
BT

"Denny" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Darwin award!
>
> While we are on the topic of stupidity, did everyone notice that the
> military managed to t-bone another GA plane yesterday, killing the GA
> pilot, while the intrepid combat pilots parachuted to safety..
>
> Denny
>

[BTIZ]

an "Alert Area" is not reserved airspace..

BT

"OtisWinslow" > wrote in message
...
> The plane was in an Alert area marked "Intensive Student Training" and it
> was flying at 5000ft. It's on the map. Find out if it's hot before
> venturing
> around in it. The military pilots were doing what they do in the area
> reserved for them to do it in.
>
>
>
> "Denny" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Darwin award!
>>
>> While we are on the topic of stupidity, did everyone notice that the
>> military managed to t-bone another GA plane yesterday, killing the GA
>> pilot, while the intrepid combat pilots parachuted to safety..
>>
>> Denny
>>
>
>

[Denny]

Absolutely! The AgCat did an Immelman and rammed the jet from
behind...

OK, all fun and tongue in cheek aside..
1. I am pro military flyboys... They put their ass on the line in
defense of the country, for meager pay..
2..It is a given that they have to train...
3. BUT! Other than the prohibited areas it is public airspace and the
over taking craft must give way...

Look at the Ninja flight in Florida that slaughtered an innocent <and
totally in the right> CFI... The military has a cavalier attitude that
you are obligated to stay out of their way as they bust speed limits,
altitude/heading rules, and aerobatic restrictions, in public
airspace... It is time to haul the military up short and for the courts
to inform them (in the form of manslaughter convictions) that they are
obligated to exercise due care because being faster and more
maneuverable than the spam can they are the burdened vessel... The
military absolutely has to place radar aircraft near the hot zone
scanning for civilian traffic to protect the public during training
maneuvers - and that is the bottom line... Consider the flip side of
the coin - Your wife is tooling down I-80 and an Abrams tank comes
flying out of the weeds and crushes your car, and her, flat and keeps
going... And the military tells you that it was a training mission and
therefore your wife was obligated to say out of their way...

The final reality, is that if a combat aircraft (training or not)
cannot see and avoid a 110 knot spam can, what chance in frozen hell,
would they have of surviving more than 30 seconds in an actual combat
zone against an enemy that intends to maneuver in close enough to kill
them?

Denny

[Dave Butler]

Denny wrote:
> Absolutely! The AgCat did an Immelman and rammed the jet from
> behind...
>
> OK, all fun and tongue in cheek aside..
> 1. I am pro military flyboys... They put their ass on the line in
> defense of the country, for meager pay..
> 2..It is a given that they have to train...
> 3. BUT! Other than the prohibited areas it is public airspace and the
> over taking craft must give way...
>
> Look at the Ninja flight in Florida that slaughtered an innocent <and
> totally in the right> CFI... The military has a cavalier attitude that
> you are obligated to stay out of their way as they bust speed limits,
> altitude/heading rules, and aerobatic restrictions, in public
> airspace... It is time to haul the military up short and for the courts
> to inform them (in the form of manslaughter convictions) that they are
> obligated to exercise due care because being faster and more
> maneuverable than the spam can they are the burdened vessel... The
> military absolutely has to place radar aircraft near the hot zone
> scanning for civilian traffic to protect the public during training
> maneuvers - and that is the bottom line... Consider the flip side of
> the coin - Your wife is tooling down I-80 and an Abrams tank comes
> flying out of the weeds and crushes your car, and her, flat and keeps
> going... And the military tells you that it was a training mission and
> therefore your wife was obligated to say out of their way...
>
> The final reality, is that if a combat aircraft (training or not)
> cannot see and avoid a 110 knot spam can, what chance in frozen hell,
> would they have of surviving more than 30 seconds in an actual combat
> zone against an enemy that intends to maneuver in close enough to kill
> them?

Well said, Denny! We all need to prod AOPA to get hot on this issue. Not to
denigrate your contribution, but this is preaching to the choir. Hmmm, actually
it seems there are some in the NG who haven't joined the choir yet. The 4-letter
groups have the clout to make a dent in this problem, maybe only barely. We need
to let them know it's an issue we want them to spend our money on.

Dave

[houstondan]

most towns have a road, main drag, country mile or whatever where the
youth gather to do what youth do. think of it as an moa only with much
bigger motors.

without worrying about right & wrong or who is patriotic, isn't there a
"best practive" where you( the g.a. driver) A: stay out or B: make sure
their traffic control knows you're around? had planned to cross one a
while back (didn't happen) and i was real clear that i had a perfect
right to be there but i had also planned to let 'em know i was there.

now, i'm sure not saying the ferry-driver did anything wrong; i'm just
askin about what y'all do.


dan

[G.R. Patterson III]

houstondan wrote:
>
> now, i'm sure not saying the ferry-driver did anything wrong; i'm just
> askin about what y'all do.

Someone posted that the ferry pilot was above the alert airspace and not in it.
That's what I used to do when I was based at Old Bridge. If I came in from the
south, I'd go over McGuire's alert area and descend into Old Bridge.

If I ever make a run to Tennessee from my new home field (Lakewood), I'll have
to go through. I'll call them up and get a squawk code for that.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[[email protected]]

G.R. Patterson III wrote:
> houstondan wrote:
> >
> > now, i'm sure not saying the ferry-driver did anything wrong; i'm
just
> > askin about what y'all do.
>
> Someone posted that the ferry pilot was above the alert airspace and
not in it.
> That's what I used to do when I was based at Old Bridge. If I came in
from the
> south, I'd go over McGuire's alert area and descend into Old Bridge.
>
> If I ever make a run to Tennessee from my new home field (Lakewood),
I'll have
> to go through. I'll call them up and get a squawk code for that.
>

Today I learned some information about the T-37 - Air Tractor midair
collision.

The T-37 struck the Air Tractor in the nose area, and the pilot was
able to land the crippled Air Tractor in a field, but it exploded into
flames before he could egress the aircraft. The pilot who gave me this
info saw the aftermath of the crash site firsthand and stated that
there are clear tire tracks in the field indicating the pilot was able
to land his crippled plane in what appeared to should have been a
survivable landing, but they did not know if the Air Tractor was on
fire on the way down or not.

What a terrible way to die.

[mudskipper]

Wow, that is VERY interesting. Could you provide more details on your
pilot friend's theory?


--
mudskipper
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