Re: Barbra Olson Story Debunked! Proof Cellphones Work in Aircraft.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Sport Pilot wrote:
>
> If not I have attached their group to
> this post so some of them may enlighten us as to the use of cellphones
> in aircraft.

Please don't make a practice of this.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Sport Pilot]

I won't. But I thought that some in this group could get a good laugh
at what these kooks are saying. Plus let us know how well cell phones
work from aircraft.

[John E. Carty]

"Sport Pilot" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I won't. But I thought that some in this group could get a good laugh
> at what these kooks are saying. Plus let us know how well cell phones
> work from aircraft.
>

They not only work from aircraft, but the FAA is considering lifting the ban
on their use if their studies find them to be safe:
http://money.cnn.com/2004/12/09/technology/personaltech/cellphones_inflight/

[G.R. Patterson III]

"John E. Carty" wrote:
>
> They not only work from aircraft, but the FAA is considering lifting the ban
> on their use if their studies find them to be safe:

That's the FCC - the FAA has no ban on cell phones.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Sport Pilot]

I think the FAA has an AC which tells the owners/operators the
potential dangers of using them. Thus the commercial carriers ban
thier use. Up to GA pilots to determine that for themself. Doubt it
would ever be a problem for VFR.
G.R. Patterson III wrote:
> "John E. Carty" wrote:
> >
> > They not only work from aircraft, but the FAA is considering
lifting the ban
> > on their use if their studies find them to be safe:
>
> That's the FCC - the FAA has no ban on cell phones.
>
> George Patterson
> The desire for safety stands against every great and noble
enterprise.

[James M. Knox]

"John E. Carty" > wrote in
om:

>> Plus let us know how well cell
>> phones work from aircraft.
>>
>
> They not only work from aircraft, but the FAA is considering lifting
> the ban on their use if their studies find them to be safe:

Apples and Oranges. The release on the ban has to do with the safety of
intentional radiator on aircraft. The phones still won't be "working"
as they normally would (i.e. talking to "cell towers" along the route)
but rather to a "cell tower" located within the aircraft, and from there
linked to the airlines own communications equipment, and from there into
the POTS network. Admittedly, to the guy holding his phone to his ear,
he won't see much difference (except on his next bill).

Now, ignoring the above type of system, will the thing work at all?
Well, that's a big question with more variables than knowns. Older
analog (AMPS) systems (i.e. the original and only true "cell" phones)
work pretty good at reasonable aircraft altitudes and speeds, legal
issues not withstanding. Modern digital (aka PCS) type phones do not...
usually limited to about 2000 AGL. However, as they say, your mileage
may vary - and does, widely, depending on location. But... many modern
digital phones are equipped to try a variety of protocols in a fallback
mode. So even a modern "world phone" *may* work at altitude.

Bottom line - do they work in an aircraft; no. Do I believe someone
made a "cell phone" call from an aircraft in any specific case? Sure.

jmk

[C J Campbell]

"James M. Knox" > wrote in message
2...
> "John E. Carty" > wrote in
> om:
>
>
> Now, ignoring the above type of system, will the thing work at all?
> Well, that's a big question with more variables than knowns. Older
> analog (AMPS) systems (i.e. the original and only true "cell" phones)
> work pretty good at reasonable aircraft altitudes and speeds, legal
> issues not withstanding. Modern digital (aka PCS) type phones do not...
> usually limited to about 2000 AGL.

I regularly make phone calls with my PCS phone from 10,000 feet AGL in my
own plane. I have never had any trouble with it. I made such a call
yesterday, in fact.

[Matt Barrow]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> > Now, ignoring the above type of system, will the thing work at all?
> > Well, that's a big question with more variables than knowns. Older
> > analog (AMPS) systems (i.e. the original and only true "cell" phones)
> > work pretty good at reasonable aircraft altitudes and speeds, legal
> > issues not withstanding. Modern digital (aka PCS) type phones do not...
> > usually limited to about 2000 AGL.
>
> I regularly make phone calls with my PCS phone from 10,000 feet AGL in my
> own plane. I have never had any trouble with it. I made such a call
> yesterday, in fact.
>
If it can work over several miles laterally in rolling terrain, why wouldn't
it work for 2-5 miles vertically?
--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[C J Campbell]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "John E. Carty" wrote:
> >
> > They not only work from aircraft, but the FAA is considering lifting the
ban
> > on their use if their studies find them to be safe:
>
> That's the FCC - the FAA has no ban on cell phones.

And the FCC has no ban on PCS phones.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Sport Pilot wrote:
>
> I think the FAA has an AC which tells the owners/operators the
> potential dangers of using them. Thus the commercial carriers ban
> thier use. Up to GA pilots to determine that for themself. Doubt it
> would ever be a problem for VFR.

No, the FCC bans use of cell phones in the air. The FAA has a blanket statement
about "electronic devices" but makes no statements whatsoever specific to cell
phones. The FCC ban has nothing to do with danger to the aircraft or whether
they will work in the air. The problem is that some of the older ground systems
have problems with a phone in the air. It reaches multiple receivers (cells) and
causes conflicts on the ground.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[G.R. Patterson III]

C J Campbell wrote:
>
> And the FCC has no ban on PCS phones.

Correct. Many PCS phones use the cell phone frequencies as backup, however, and
aerial use of those is banned (they're "cell phones" when using those
frequencies).

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[James M. Knox]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in
:

>> > Modern digital (aka PCS)
>> > type phones do not... usually limited to about 2000 AGL.
>>
>> I regularly make phone calls with my PCS phone from 10,000 feet AGL
>> in my own plane. I have never had any trouble with it. I made such a
>> call yesterday, in fact.
>>
> If it can work over several miles laterally in rolling terrain, why
> wouldn't it work for 2-5 miles vertically?

Antenna pattern.

And while I won't say that you absolutely could NOT find a case where a
true PCS call would work from 10K AGL, I suspect more likely your phone is
rolling back to another mode. What's the phone model?

jmk

[Dana M. Hague]

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 03:14:21 -0800, Richard Riley

>Doing it with a PCS phone from a private plane is even legal. The FCC
>reg prohibiting cell phone calls from airplanes only covers first
>generation analog cell phones...

Where did you get that information? A web search finds much
information about ending the ban, but absolutely nothing about "some"
kinds of cellphones being allowed in aircraft.




Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 47, Volume 2]
[Revised as of October 1, 2004]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 47CFR22.925]

[Page 189]

TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION

CHAPTER I--FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS
COMMISSION (CONTINUED)

PART 22_PUBLIC MOBILE SERVICES--Table of Contents

Subpart H_Cellular Radiotelephone Service

Sec. 22.925 Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular telephones.

Cellular telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes,
balloons or any other type of aircraft must not be operated while such
aircraft are airborne (not touching the ground). When any aircraft
leaves the ground, all cellular telephones on board that aircraft must
be turned off. The following notice must be posted on or near each
cellular telephone installed in any aircraft:
``The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is airborne
is prohibited by FCC rules, and the violation of this rule could
result in suspension of service and/or a fine. The use of cellular
telephones while this aircraft is on the ground is subject to FAA
regulations.''
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[Morgans]

"Dana M. Hague" <d(dash)m(dash)hague(at)comcast(dot)net> wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 03:14:21 -0800, Richard Riley
>
> >Doing it with a PCS phone from a private plane is even legal. The FCC
> >reg prohibiting cell phone calls from airplanes only covers first
> >generation analog cell phones...
>
> Where did you get that information? A web search finds much
> information about ending the ban, but absolutely nothing about "some"
> kinds of cellphones being allowed in aircraft.


PCS phones use a different frequency spread than regular cell phones, and
technically are not considered cell phones. Therefore, no ban on their use
in airplanes.

It is interesting that people who have used them in the air report poor
reception, at higher altitudes with PCS, but not so with conventional cell
phones. Something about the signal polarization being horizontal, or
something. So still, unless you are low and slow, no joy with "air phones"
working. (legally)
--
Jim in NC

[George Patterson]

"Dana M. Hague" wrote:
>
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 03:14:21 -0800, Richard Riley
>
> >Doing it with a PCS phone from a private plane is even legal. The FCC
> >reg prohibiting cell phone calls from airplanes only covers first
> >generation analog cell phones...
>
> Where did you get that information? A web search finds much
> information about ending the ban, but absolutely nothing about "some"
> kinds of cellphones being allowed in aircraft.

You can start here http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/cellular with the definition
of what's a cell phone. Then follow the links on that page to "Aircraft Usage"
and "Broadband PCS." As Jim says, PCS phones are not cell phones.

George Patterson
He who would distinguish what is true from what is false must have an
adequate understanding of truth and falsehood.