gear up landing: "There are those who have, and..."

[Daniel L. Lieberman]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> gatt wrote:
>>
>> "...those who will forgot to lower their landing gear."
>>
>> Was told this by a guest instructor. I'm not at all comfortable with
>> this.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>
> One of the AOPA Pilot writers put it very well. He wrote that, if this
> statement
> were actually true, the best thing for someone transitioning to
> retractable gear
> would be to do a gear-up landing immediately and get it over with.
>
> George Patterson
> He who marries for money earns every penny of it.

If you use a written checklist EVERY time and form the habit of doing a
safety check on final EVERY time this should never happen.

I have caught a failure of the gear to lower on a final safety check which
proves the necessity for the safety check. (The instructor had pulled the
gear lowering circuit breaker and I had not looked back when doing the GUMPS
check to check the light. I had also failed to look out the window and ask
the instructor to verify that the right hand gear was down.) That is what
the final safety check is for.

Has anyone heard of an accidental gear up landing during a part 135
operation? I believe the PTS requirement for the Commercial Checkride of
using an appropriate check list helps prevent this problem. Also there is -
at least in a 172RG - a gear up warning horn.



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[gatt]

"...those who will forgot to lower their landing gear."

Was told this by a guest instructor. I'm not at all comfortable with this.

Thoughts?

-c

[Peter R.]

gatt ) wrote:

> "...those who will forgot to lower their landing gear."
>
> Was told this by a guest instructor. I'm not at all comfortable with this.
>
> Thoughts?

I first started my flight training back in 1989 at Waterbury/Oxford,
Connecticut. Based at that airport was an aircraft whose owner landed
not once, but twice without extending his gear.

Now that I am flying a retractable-gear aircraft, I have decided to give
my "those who will do so" card to that pilot.

Now, this saying goes, "There are those who will do so multiple times,
and those who donated their moment to these few."


--
Peter

[Bob Chilcoat]

My father, who had many hours in 57 different types (see
http://users.erols.com/viewptmd/Dad.html), finally did it well after getting
out of the Air Force, in his Mooney M-18 ("Mite"). It's a tiny little
airplane, but typical of Mooneys, retractible and fast. As the plane
settled past where it should have gone "chirp" he had that sinking, oh ****!
moment. Fortunately, with a wooden prop there was little damage except to
the prop, his ego and the paint on the bottom. I don't even think they tore
down the engine. OTOH, he was really embarrassed. He'd always assumed
those things only happened to other, poorer pilots. Since I'm not complex
rated, I doubt that I'll ever have the chance to do it. Still...

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "...those who will forgot to lower their landing gear."
>
> Was told this by a guest instructor. I'm not at all comfortable with
this.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -c
>
>
>

[Corky Scott]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:47:17 -0800, "gatt" >
wrote:

>"...those who will forgot to lower their landing gear."
>
>Was told this by a guest instructor. I'm not at all comfortable with this.
>
>Thoughts?

Sure, stick to non retracts.

Corky Scott

[Gene Seibel]

I haven't and probably won't - only because I've never flown a retract
and probably never will. I've done plenty to make up for it though.
--
Gene Seibel
Tales of flight - http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[George Patterson]

gatt wrote:
>
> "...those who will forgot to lower their landing gear."
>
> Was told this by a guest instructor. I'm not at all comfortable with this.
>
> Thoughts?

One of the AOPA Pilot writers put it very well. He wrote that, if this statement
were actually true, the best thing for someone transitioning to retractable gear
would be to do a gear-up landing immediately and get it over with.

George Patterson
He who marries for money earns every penny of it.

[Bob Gardner]

I would guess that among those who participate in this newsgroup there are
only one or two (if that many) who have done the deed. The saying is a good
motivator, but hardly a prediction of things to come. IMHO saying
(internally) something like "three greens" at least twice before short final
should eliminate the possibility of landing gear up. Worked for me.

Bob Gardner

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "...those who will forgot to lower their landing gear."
>
> Was told this by a guest instructor. I'm not at all comfortable with
> this.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -c
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

gatt wrote:
> "...those who will forgot to lower their landing gear."
>
> Was told this by a guest instructor. I'm not at all comfortable with
this.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -c

My thought is that such fatalistic thinking serves no purpose
whatsoever. Surely there are better teaching tools than "Just accept
the inevitable".

[Maule Driver]

I've always understood the message in that saying to be, "never think
you've become so proficient that you are not subject to leaving the gear
up" Not fatalistic but a warning to the wise.

A corollary: "Whatever your method for remembering to get the gear down,
remember no method is foolproof."

Bob G said that "IMHO saying (internally) something like "three greens"
at least twice before short final should eliminate the possibility of
landing gear up. Worked for me." I'd say, "so far..." with
considerable respect Bob..

There's always SOMETHING that can screw up your short final planning
(e.g. bird strike, a streaker) and cause you to forget. If you haven't
seen that SOMETHING yet, just keep living.

I almost did it in my glider despite a foolproof method that worked for
1000 hours and hundreds of non-standard patterns and landings.
Fortunately it happened during a contest and an observant ground crew
radioed me 10 feet off the ground.

gatt wrote:
> "...those who will forgot to lower their landing gear."
>
> Was told this by a guest instructor. I'm not at all comfortable with this.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -c
>
>
>

[Maule Driver]

wrote:
>
> My thought is that such fatalistic thinking serves no purpose
> whatsoever. Surely there are better teaching tools than "Just accept
> the inevitable".

It's not about accepting the inevitable, it's about saying some other
way than, "There are those who have, and those that will die first"
>

[gatt]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message

> One of the AOPA Pilot writers put it very well. He wrote that, if this
statement
> were actually true, the best thing for someone transitioning to
retractable gear
> would be to do a gear-up landing immediately and get it over with.

Thanks, George! I can't wait to tell the CFI that's what I want to do this
afternoon. :>

-c

[gatt]

> wrote in message

> > Was told this by a guest instructor. I'm not at all comfortable with
> this.

> My thought is that such fatalistic thinking serves no purpose
> whatsoever. Surely there are better teaching tools than "Just accept
> the inevitable".

This was the same instructor who said "To your detriment, you remembered to
do your third GUMPS check on final...."

I'm thinking it's time to go back to my regular instructor.

-c

[steve.t]

In every complex aircraft I've been in, there is a gear warning horn.
Most of them (Cessna) are set to sound when the manifold or RPM drops
beyond a certain point. Makes certain manuovers a bit noisy at
altitude.

And I've heard of an "accidental" gear up landing involving a part 12*
carrier!

And then there is the goofy light problem. If you get two greens, now
what do you do?

I was told, if possible, pull one of the lights that is working and put
it in the one that isn't lit and see if it lights (this is for
locations where no one is on the ground to tell you if you have three
down -- but how would they know it isn't locked?).
Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

[[email protected]]

Maule Driver wrote:
<snip>
> A corollary: "Whatever your method for remembering to get the gear
down,
> remember no method is foolproof."

I think you hit the nail on the head. Rather than being fatalistic,
it's more of a warning that it can happen to anyone if their attention
is diverted at a critical moment.

<snip>
> There's always SOMETHING that can screw up your short final planning
> (e.g. bird strike, a streaker) and cause you to forget. If you
haven't
> seen that SOMETHING yet, just keep living.

That's the key. I've seen gear-ups performed by retractable newbies
and 10,000+ hr. pilots. A combination of distractions at the right
time can sink the best of them. When I based at PHX, I once watched a
commercial 737 come down short final with the gear up. They were
coming back around for the second time after going around for traffic
on the runway. While on the go around, they reported a problem with an
engine indicator. It distracted them enough that they missed putting
the gear down. Fortunately, the tower caught it and let them know and
they went around again.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Scott D.]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:22:56 -0800, "Bob Gardner" >
wrote:

>I would guess that among those who participate in this newsgroup there are
>only one or two (if that many) who have done the deed. The saying is a good
>motivator, but hardly a prediction of things to come. IMHO saying
>(internally) something like "three greens" at least twice before short final
>should eliminate the possibility of landing gear up. Worked for me.
>
>Bob Gardner
>
When I was first transitioning into a twin, I got into a sim to also
work on instrument procedures as well. During that time, I "Geared
Up" the simulator. It made a horrible sound. To this day, when I
fly, even if I am in a fixed gear aircraft, I always check the gear,
because I will always remember that sound. You will find me checking
the gear a minimum of 3 times and if the work load seems to be busy, I
will check it up to 5 times.

When I teach complex to students, I also make them check it at least 3
times. If we are in the pattern, it is on downwind, Base and final.
If we are coming straight in, its when we start slowing it down for
approach speed, so I usually call for 10 degrees flaps then gear down
within gear extension speed. Then about 2 miles out, and then again
on final. I also make sure that I, or the student, keep my hand on
the gear extension handle while the gear is in transit and once I see
the green lights, I call, 3 greens, red light out, and one in the
mirror (If it has a mirror). I also will pull the throttles back and
do a gear horn check to make sure that it does not sound.


Scott D

To email remove spamcatcher

[Dudley Henriques]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "...those who will forgot to lower their landing gear."
>
> Was told this by a guest instructor. I'm not at all comfortable with
> this.
>
> Thoughts?

The "secret" in proving this prophecy false is called a "consistent
habit pattern"
You should naturally always perform a pre-landing checklist for the
airplane you're flying, and in addition, I always tacked on an extra
check that I completed on final REGARDLESS of all other checks
completed, and that check was a GUMP touch and verify check redone on
final. There are pilots who would be satisfied with the execution of a
normal pre-landing checklist done at the "proper" time. I am not one of
those pilots! I do the pre-landing checklist, then I double check with
an extra GUMP check TRIGGERED by my being on final.
There will be times when you will be interrupted or distracted DURING a
pre-landing checklist procedure. It could be ATC asking you for
something, or directing you to do something. It could be a fly on the
windshield becoming an airplane heading right at you at your altitude.
It could be anything! One split second's distraction away from the
checklist has caused many an accident that could have been prevented by
a simple triggered final abbreviated re-check on final.
On final, I ALWAYS made that one last GUMP check......out loud to
myself........YOU SAY IT>>>>>YOU TOUCH IT>>>>>>AND YOU VERIFY IT'S
RIGHT>>>>>
EVERY TIME.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for private email; make necessary changes between ( )
dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net

[[email protected]]

Daniel L. Lieberman wrote:
>
> Has anyone heard of an accidental gear up landing during a part 135
> operation? I believe the PTS requirement for the Commercial Checkride
of
> using an appropriate check list helps prevent this problem. Also
there is -
> at least in a 172RG - a gear up warning horn.
>
>


Frontier Air did it at least once in Wyoming with a 737. Ground both
pods down beyond the centelines. Bolted a couple of new pylons and
engines on a few days later and flew it home for a major inspection.
Both flight crew were fired.

Craig C.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"gatt" > wrote:

> "...those who will forgot to lower their landing gear."
>
> Was told this by a guest instructor. I'm not at all comfortable with this.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -c


About 40 years ago, I was at the old North American surplus store
(looking out over the approach to LAX) and saw a DC-4 on short final
(about 100 feet in the air) with gear up. As they passed, I saw the
mains and nose gear drop into position.

Five years ago, during our annual bonfire here at Spruce Creek, with
about 1000 people as witnesses, a Cessna P210 did a gear up landing in
front of everybody. I was talking to some friends when I heard "Thump!
Thump! Thump!, scraaaaape!) and turned to see the P210 sliding to a
halt. That was one expensive evening's entertainment!

[Blueskies]

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message . com...
> I've always understood the message in that saying to be, "never think you've become so proficient that you are not
> subject to leaving the gear up" Not fatalistic but a warning to the wise.
>
> A corollary: "Whatever your method for remembering to get the gear down, remember no method is foolproof."
>
> Bob G said that "IMHO saying (internally) something like "three greens" at least twice before short final should
> eliminate the possibility of landing gear up. Worked for me." I'd say, "so far..." with considerable respect Bob..
>
> There's always SOMETHING that can screw up your short final planning (e.g. bird strike, a streaker) and cause you to
> forget. If you haven't seen that SOMETHING yet, just keep living.
>
> I almost did it in my glider despite a foolproof method that worked for 1000 hours and hundreds of non-standard
> patterns and landings. Fortunately it happened during a contest and an observant ground crew radioed me 10 feet off
> the ground.
>


P-3 in Hawaii shooting low approaches into Lihue airport on Kauai. They decided to do one all the way down to landing,
and you guessed it. The airport was closed the rest of the day while they got it off the runway...

[BTIZ]

actually.. there are three groups... and you are always in one of the
three... hopefully you always remain in group 1 and never transition to
group 2 which holds dual citizenship with group 3

1) There are those that will..
2) There are those that have..
3) There are those that will again..

BT
(and doing that Gumps check to hopefully remain in Group1)


"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "...those who will forgot to lower their landing gear."
>
> Was told this by a guest instructor. I'm not at all comfortable with
> this.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -c
>
>
>

[Andrew Rowley]

" > wrote:


>I've seen gear-ups performed by retractable newbies
>and 10,000+ hr. pilots. A combination of distractions at the right
>time can sink the best of them. When I based at PHX, I once watched a
>commercial 737 come down short final with the gear up. They were
>coming back around for the second time after going around for traffic
>on the runway. While on the go around, they reported a problem with an
>engine indicator. It distracted them enough that they missed putting
>the gear down. Fortunately, the tower caught it and let them know and
>they went around again.

John Deakin wrote a good article on this subject on Avweb, about
almost landing a 747 gear up.
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/188536-1.html
I also read an investigation report about someone almost doing it in a
Learjet on a check flight. They went around when they felt the VHF
antenna drag on the runway!
http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=220
The PIC (the instructor) is listed as having 17000 hours, 3000 on
type.

[BTIZ]

> And then there is the goofy light problem. If you get two greens, now
> what do you do?
>
> I was told, if possible, pull one of the lights that is working and put
> it in the one that isn't lit and see if it lights (this is for
> locations where no one is on the ground to tell you if you have three
> down -- but how would they know it isn't locked?).

I had that happen to me in an Arrow, and I was single pilot.. no pax.. and
the auto pilot was kaput.. I could not get my phat phingers around the
green lens cover to pop the bulb and move it... so it was back to the FBO..
a pass down the runway.. "well.. it looks ok.."... and the most ginger of
landings ever made... almost testing the gear while still maintaining flying
speed incase it crumped.. (right main light was out)... but that's what
5500ft runways are for

it was a light bulb problem... and no "press to test" for the bulbs..

BT

[[email protected]]

I've made hundredes of gear up landings...all of them intentional.


Of course they were on water in an amphibian!!!!<ggg>
Nearly got suckered into a gear up landing with a Twin Beech. Short
final behind a Cessna. Just as I was about to declare a "go around" the
Cessna landed short and taxied off the runway. I was headed for the far
end of a 6000' runway and was cleared to land. I had already cycled the
gear UP and flaps to take-off and had added power when the tower
cleared me to land. I immediately reduced power and only my usual
"short final" check of gear, props, mixture saved us from getting that
sinking feeling and the terrible noise that follows. I still followed
through with an orderly go-around and thought about how the events
could have caused a gear up landing. Simply reinforced my routine last
check on short final to insure gear down and welded or three green.
Ol S&B

[Ron Parsons]

In article >,
"gatt" > wrote:

>"...those who will forgot to lower their landing gear."
>
>Was told this by a guest instructor. I'm not at all comfortable with this.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>-c

That's what they used to say about ground looping a tail dragger.

Your instructor's point seems far less apt.

--
Ron Parsons

[pickle]

Peter R. wrote:

> gatt ) wrote:
>
>
>>"...those who will forgot to lower their landing gear."
>>
>>Was told this by a guest instructor. I'm not at all comfortable with this.
>>
>>Thoughts?
>
>
> I first started my flight training back in 1989 at Waterbury/Oxford,
> Connecticut. Based at that airport was an aircraft whose owner landed
> not once, but twice without extending his gear.

It wasn't a P-51, was it?

[Peter R.]

pickle ) wrote:

> Peter R. wrote:
>
> > gatt ) wrote:
> >
> >
> >>"...those who will forgot to lower their landing gear."
> >>
> >>Was told this by a guest instructor. I'm not at all comfortable with this.
> >>
> >>Thoughts?
> >
> >
> > I first started my flight training back in 1989 at Waterbury/Oxford,
> > Connecticut. Based at that airport was an aircraft whose owner landed
> > not once, but twice without extending his gear.
>
> It wasn't a P-51, was it?

No, it was a retractable Cessna single engine, most likely a 210.

--
Peter