GUMPS/Instrument approaches

[gatt]

Hey, all. Haven't shot instrument approaches in a complex aircraft yet,
and I'm getting ready to so I'm curious:

When you're doing a practice approach in which you know it's going to be
missed, do you complete/amend/ignore the GUMPS check? I'm guessing yes,
but I'm curious as to what others do. Finishing up my complex endorsement
this afternoon, but haven't done any approaches in that plane yet.

-c

[Peter R.]

gatt ) wrote:

> When you're doing a practice approach in which you know it's going to be
> missed, do you complete/amend/ignore the GUMPS check?

Absolutely not.

Part of going missed is practicing all those "going missed" items:
mixture forward, prop forward, throttle forward, gear up, flaps up, cowl
flaps open, and (in my case) prop then back to 2500 rpms.

If I skipped the GUMPS, I wouldn't be accurately practicing the missed
approach configuration items properly. Additionally, the aircraft
wouldn't react the same way as if the gear were down, etc.

--
Peter

[Peter R.]

Peter R. ) wrote:

> gatt ) wrote:
>
> > When you're doing a practice approach in which you know it's going to be
> > missed, do you complete/amend/ignore the GUMPS check?
>
> Absolutely not.

I should clarify because I only read "amend/ignore." I absolutely
*complete* the GUMPS check during all approaches, despite knowing I am
going missed during a practice approach.

--
Peter

[Dudley Henriques]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hey, all. Haven't shot instrument approaches in a complex aircraft
> yet,
> and I'm getting ready to so I'm curious:
>
> When you're doing a practice approach in which you know it's going to
> be
> missed, do you complete/amend/ignore the GUMPS check? I'm guessing
> yes,
> but I'm curious as to what others do. Finishing up my complex
> endorsement
> this afternoon, but haven't done any approaches in that plane yet.

No. I wouldn't do that, and here's why. Your practice approaches should
include everything you would usually do in the airplane, and that
includes all checklist procedures and cockpit housekeeping. You want the
workload to be the same as it would be in the real situation. That's the
way it will be on the real missed approach and that's the way you want
to practice it.
Keep in mind these are MY procedures. Other pilots might differ in their
"approach" to this scenario. :-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for private email; make necessary changes between ( )
dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net

[Bob Gardner]

Many instructors advise instrument students to hang the gear out when the
glideslope is about a dot above center..the added drag starts you down the
hill, and it's awfully hard to forget the gear if you follow this advice.

Bob Gardner

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hey, all. Haven't shot instrument approaches in a complex aircraft yet,
> and I'm getting ready to so I'm curious:
>
> When you're doing a practice approach in which you know it's going to be
> missed, do you complete/amend/ignore the GUMPS check? I'm guessing yes,
> but I'm curious as to what others do. Finishing up my complex
> endorsement
> this afternoon, but haven't done any approaches in that plane yet.
>
> -c
>
>

[gatt]

"Peter R." > wrote in message

> I should clarify because I only read "amend/ignore." I absolutely
> *complete* the GUMPS check during all approaches, despite knowing I am
> going missed during a practice approach.

Cool. Thanks, Peter!

-c

[gatt]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
news:NXbKd.434

> No. I wouldn't do that, and here's why. Your practice approaches should
> include everything you would usually do in the airplane, and that
> includes all checklist procedures and cockpit housekeeping. You want the
> workload to be the same as it would be in the real situation.

That's what I thought. I think I'm going to hold off on the instrument
approaches in that airplane until I'm not so green in the airplane to avoid
becoming a statistic.

-gatt

[Peter R.]

gatt ) wrote:

> That's what I thought. I think I'm going to hold off on the instrument
> approaches in that airplane until I'm not so green in the airplane to avoid
> becoming a statistic.

What kind of aircraft is it?

--
Peter

[Dave Butler]

gatt wrote:
> Hey, all. Haven't shot instrument approaches in a complex aircraft yet,
> and I'm getting ready to so I'm curious:
>
> When you're doing a practice approach in which you know it's going to be
> missed, do you complete/amend/ignore the GUMPS check? I'm guessing yes,
> but I'm curious as to what others do. Finishing up my complex endorsement
> this afternoon, but haven't done any approaches in that plane yet.

I always do the GUMPS check. I almost always do a touch-and-go out of a practice
approach.

[jsmith]

Landing checklist completed prior to arrival at the Final Approach Fix.
Gear, flaps and power setting are FAF configuation items to provide
consistant, stable approaches.

[Scott D.]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:15:04 -0800, "gatt" >
wrote:

>
>Hey, all. Haven't shot instrument approaches in a complex aircraft yet,
>and I'm getting ready to so I'm curious:
>
>When you're doing a practice approach in which you know it's going to be
>missed, do you complete/amend/ignore the GUMPS check? I'm guessing yes,
>but I'm curious as to what others do. Finishing up my complex endorsement
>this afternoon, but haven't done any approaches in that plane yet.
>
Don't skip anything. The reason why we train is so that you build
muscle memory as well. It comes in handy when the S*$% gets deep and
your mind is having to concentrate so hard, that you want some things
to come "Naturally". If you start making adjustments to how you would
normally do something because you know your are going around, you are
training you mind to that which could potentially cause problems down
the road. Always complete the GUMPS when you normally do it and then
when its time to go around do the 5 C's.


Scott D

To email remove spamcatcher

[Scott D.]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:40:09 -0800, "Bob Gardner" >
wrote:

>Many instructors advise instrument students to hang the gear out when the
>glideslope is about a dot above center..the added drag starts you down the
>hill, and it's awfully hard to forget the gear if you follow this advice.
>
>Bob Gardner


This his how I have always done it, but with a little variation. When
I intercept the glideslope, Usually at the FAF, I then lower the gear.
The only time that I did not do this, was when I had an engine failure
on a twin shooting the approach in IMC. I just kept saying to myself
as I was descending, was "DONT FORGET THE GEAR, ...." Once I broke
out and I knew I had the runway made, the gear came down.

Scott D

To email remove spamcatcher

[Wizard of Draws]

On 1/27/05 2:15 PM, in article , "gatt"
> wrote:

>
> Hey, all. Haven't shot instrument approaches in a complex aircraft yet,
> and I'm getting ready to so I'm curious:
>
> When you're doing a practice approach in which you know it's going to be
> missed, do you complete/amend/ignore the GUMPS check? I'm guessing yes,
> but I'm curious as to what others do. Finishing up my complex endorsement
> this afternoon, but haven't done any approaches in that plane yet.
>
> -c
>
>
No way in hell. That's a sure way to forget it on a full stop approach.
Program your brain and muscle memory for GUMPS on every final approach.

Part of what the extended gear will do for you at glideslope intercept is
put you on the right descent rate if you've set up for the approach speed
already.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[BTIZ]

why would you intentionally have the aircraft configured for an approach
that you are not used to.

In the Bonanza, and in the Arrow, having the aircraft trimmed for level
flight at approach speed, and then extending the gear at the FAF makes for a
nice transition to the 500-600fpm required to capture and maintain the glide
slope on the local ILS.

BT

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hey, all. Haven't shot instrument approaches in a complex aircraft yet,
> and I'm getting ready to so I'm curious:
>
> When you're doing a practice approach in which you know it's going to be
> missed, do you complete/amend/ignore the GUMPS check? I'm guessing yes,
> but I'm curious as to what others do. Finishing up my complex
> endorsement
> this afternoon, but haven't done any approaches in that plane yet.
>
> -c
>
>

[Bill J]

But... I teach a "keep your forward speed up" that we seem to always get
. You need to know the plane's very different feel if keeping on glide
slope with gear up. Also multiple GUMPS checks on all approaches make
you check on short final DA+200 ft. for example.

BTIZ wrote:
> why would you intentionally have the aircraft configured for an approach
> that you are not used to.
>
> In the Bonanza, and in the Arrow, having the aircraft trimmed for level
> flight at approach speed, and then extending the gear at the FAF makes for a
> nice transition to the 500-600fpm required to capture and maintain the glide
> slope on the local ILS.
>
> BT
>
> "gatt" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Hey, all. Haven't shot instrument approaches in a complex aircraft yet,
>>and I'm getting ready to so I'm curious:
>>
>>When you're doing a practice approach in which you know it's going to be
>>missed, do you complete/amend/ignore the GUMPS check? I'm guessing yes,
>>but I'm curious as to what others do. Finishing up my complex
>>endorsement
>>this afternoon, but haven't done any approaches in that plane yet.
>>
>>-c
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Robert M. Gary]

The most important thing for your CFII to teach you on an instrument
approach is how to find the power/prop settings that result in your
approach being at the exact speed you plan for (we plan 90kt in the
Mooney as well as a configuration for 130kts when necessary). All these
power settings would be out the window if you flew with the gear up. I
usually have the student put the gear down at the point of the initial
let down on a non-pre approach and on GS intercept on a pre approach.

-Robert, CFI



gatt wrote:
> Hey, all. Haven't shot instrument approaches in a complex aircraft
yet,
> and I'm getting ready to so I'm curious:
>
> When you're doing a practice approach in which you know it's going to
be
> missed, do you complete/amend/ignore the GUMPS check? I'm guessing
yes,
> but I'm curious as to what others do. Finishing up my complex
endorsement
> this afternoon, but haven't done any approaches in that plane yet.

[Bill J]

You can't fly 130 knots with gear down in an Arrow

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> The most important thing for your CFII to teach you on an instrument
> approach is how to find the power/prop settings that result in your
> approach being at the exact speed you plan for (we plan 90kt in the
> Mooney as well as a configuration for 130kts when necessary). All these
> power settings would be out the window if you flew with the gear up. I
> usually have the student put the gear down at the point of the initial
> let down on a non-pre approach and on GS intercept on a pre approach.
>
> -Robert, CFI
>
>
>
> gatt wrote:
>
>>Hey, all. Haven't shot instrument approaches in a complex aircraft
>
> yet,
>
>>and I'm getting ready to so I'm curious:
>>
>>When you're doing a practice approach in which you know it's going to
>
> be
>
>>missed, do you complete/amend/ignore the GUMPS check? I'm guessing
>
> yes,
>
>>but I'm curious as to what others do. Finishing up my complex
>
> endorsement
>
>>this afternoon, but haven't done any approaches in that plane yet.
>
>

[Rob Montgomery]

Actually, you can (at least in the Arrow II, the only kind I have direct
experience with). The "Maximum Gear Extension" speed is 150MPH, or about 131
knots. The "Maximum Gear Retraction" speed is at 125MPH, so you'd have to
slow down before you pull the gear up on the missed. It's interesting that
they don't publish a "Maximum Gear Extended" speed, but I wouldn't go more
than an "ooops" over 150MPH.

Then again, you can always save fuel and fly at something other than full
throttle. :-)

-Rob
"Bill J" > wrote in message
...
> You can't fly 130 knots with gear down in an Arrow
>
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>> The most important thing for your CFII to teach you on an instrument
>> approach is how to find the power/prop settings that result in your
>> approach being at the exact speed you plan for (we plan 90kt in the
>> Mooney as well as a configuration for 130kts when necessary). All these
>> power settings would be out the window if you flew with the gear up. I
>> usually have the student put the gear down at the point of the initial
>> let down on a non-pre approach and on GS intercept on a pre approach.
>>
>> -Robert, CFI
>>
>>
>>
>> gatt wrote:
>>
>>>Hey, all. Haven't shot instrument approaches in a complex aircraft
>>
>> yet,
>>
>>>and I'm getting ready to so I'm curious:
>>>
>>>When you're doing a practice approach in which you know it's going to
>>
>> be
>>
>>>missed, do you complete/amend/ignore the GUMPS check? I'm guessing
>>
>> yes,
>>
>>>but I'm curious as to what others do. Finishing up my complex
>>
>> endorsement
>>
>>>this afternoon, but haven't done any approaches in that plane yet.
>>
>>
>

[BTIZ]

"Bill J" > wrote in message
...
> But... I teach a "keep your forward speed up" that we seem to always get .
> You need to know the plane's very different feel if keeping on glide slope
> with gear up. Also multiple GUMPS checks on all approaches make you check
> on short final DA+200 ft. for example.

agreed.. and on "most" aircraft... once you've for the gear down.. you can
speed up to max gear extended speed, not gear extension speed..

had that happen to me in a Seneca II, slowed to a nice 110knt approach and
approach control decided that was not fast enough.. so on glide path..
speeding up.. and retracting flaps.. able to leave the flap lever at 1
notch, 160knt speed.. and left the gear down.. 150knt speed..

nice exercise to change configuration and drag while still tracking the
loc/glideslope

BT

[Peter R.]

Rob Montgomery > wrote:

> The "Maximum Gear Extension" speed is 150MPH, or about 131
> knots.

Are you saying that you don't lose any speed when you drop the gear at 131
kts?

In the Bonanza, I drop the gear at 155 kts and immediately lose about 25-30
kts due to drag.



--
Peter

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[gatt]

"Peter R." > wrote in message

> > That's what I thought. I think I'm going to hold off on the instrument
> > approaches in that airplane until I'm not so green in the airplane to
avoid
> > becoming a statistic.
>
> What kind of aircraft is it?

Piper Arrow II. I've only logged 10.5 hours in it, so I'm not going to
shoot approaches in it until I've got more time in the plane.

-c

[gatt]

"jsmith" > wrote in message
...
> Landing checklist completed prior to arrival at the Final Approach Fix.

Very useful! thanks.

> Gear, flaps and power setting are FAF configuation items to provide
> consistant, stable approaches.

-c