This is killing me!!!

[mindenpilot]

Sorry for the rant.
I just flew into Reno tonight.
As it turns out, Sierra Air Center, the only GA facility on the ramp that
doesn't charge a ramp fee, now charges a $15 parking fee.
Yup, as of Jan 1 there's no more free landing at Reno.
What makes it worse is they said, "There's no fee if you get 15 gallons of
fuel".
That sounded OK to me. I was almost full anyway.
18 gallons of fuel at $3.73 a gallon!
It would have been cheaper if I filled up in Minden and paid the $15 parking
fee.
It's only $2.80/gal in Minden!
I felt violated!

Man, I'm bummed.
I liked to fly into Reno, get some lunch/dinner, practice in class C, etc.
No more.

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[Dave S]

So.. how do you propose these FBO's stay in business, pay for the
lights, the lease, the staff if you don't purchase their service or
products?

Flying is not cheap.. and neither is fuel.. nor is the infrastructure.

I routinely fly other places and not buy fuel. And pretty much without
fail I ask at the desk if there is a fee of some sort for the use of
their facilities... and am grateful that they are in business providing
those facilities.

Dave

mindenpilot wrote:

> Sorry for the rant.
> I just flew into Reno tonight.
> As it turns out, Sierra Air Center, the only GA facility on the ramp that
> doesn't charge a ramp fee, now charges a $15 parking fee.
> Yup, as of Jan 1 there's no more free landing at Reno.
> What makes it worse is they said, "There's no fee if you get 15 gallons of
> fuel".
> That sounded OK to me. I was almost full anyway.
> 18 gallons of fuel at $3.73 a gallon!
> It would have been cheaper if I filled up in Minden and paid the $15 parking
> fee.
> It's only $2.80/gal in Minden!
> I felt violated!
>
> Man, I'm bummed.
> I liked to fly into Reno, get some lunch/dinner, practice in class C, etc.
> No more.
>
> Adam
> N7966L
> Beech Super III
>
>

[mindenpilot]

"Dave S" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> So.. how do you propose these FBO's stay in business, pay for the lights,
> the lease, the staff if you don't purchase their service or products?
>
> Flying is not cheap.. and neither is fuel.. nor is the infrastructure.
>
> I routinely fly other places and not buy fuel. And pretty much without
> fail I ask at the desk if there is a fee of some sort for the use of their
> facilities... and am grateful that they are in business providing those
> facilities.
>
> Dave
>

I wouldn't mind paying for something that I actually use.
I parked myself.
Tied myself down in an out-of-the-way little corner of asphalt, and was
there for about an hour and half.
$15 would buy me a week of tie-down at Minden.
Besides, as others will verify, they make their money from hangar rentals
and the biz jets.

Actually, I don't even really mind the fee, it was just surprising.
What really gets me is the $3.73/gal.
How can it be $1.00/gal more for fuel at an FBO that undoubtedly has higher
volume than where I get it 30 miles away?
That is the part that is robbery.

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[Dave S]

>
> I wouldn't mind paying for something that I actually use.
> I parked myself.
> Tied myself down in an out-of-the-way little corner of asphalt, and was
> there for about an hour and half.
> $15 would buy me a week of tie-down at Minden.
> Besides, as others will verify, they make their money from hangar rentals
> and the biz jets.
>
> Actually, I don't even really mind the fee, it was just surprising.
> What really gets me is the $3.73/gal.
> How can it be $1.00/gal more for fuel at an FBO that undoubtedly has higher
> volume than where I get it 30 miles away?
> That is the part that is robbery.
>
> Adam
> N7966L
> Beech Super III
>
>
Ok.. So.. since you are going to have to pay for it..

Pull up in front like everyone else. Let them chock and park you.

The cost is easier to explain. Thats how they make their money.. Either
buy fuel or buy parking.

And its not robbery.. You can choose not to go there and choose not to
buy their fuel at that price.

How much is the cost of convenience?

Dave

[mindenpilot]

> How much is the cost of convenience?
>
> Dave
>

Apparently more than I'm accustomed to ;-)

Adam

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"mindenpilot" > wrote in message
...
>
> What really gets me is the $3.73/gal.
> How can it be $1.00/gal more for fuel at an FBO that undoubtedly has
higher
> volume than where I get it 30 miles away?
> That is the part that is robbery.
>

100LL is now $4.40-something where I tie down at BED just outside Boston.
Fuel on Martha's Vineyard, which happens to be an island ten miles offshore
where fuel must be tankered in via ferry, is nearly a dollar cheaper. The
reason? BED is run by Massport and they have added a little vigorish to the
fuel bill since BED and BOS are the only easy ways into Boston by air. The
Vineyard (and ACK too) do not mark fuel up because their economies depend on
tourism and GA is a major artery for that.

All I'm saying is it may not be the FBO's fault.

-cwk.

[Denny]

Well, try landing at Cleveland-Hopkins... Last year it was $70 to have
my wheels kiss the concrete... In your case it was a shock because you
"knew" it was free, but now you know different and you need to be
willing to pay the fee, or go elsewhere...
Denny

[Rosspilot]

The highest price I ever paid for fuel was from Piedmont-Hawthorne in (of all
places) Ocala, Florida (Aug 03) . . . $4.23/gal


www.Rosspilot.com

[Jay Honeck]

> Ok.. So.. since you are going to have to pay for it..
>
> Pull up in front like everyone else. Let them chock and park you.

And let the line-guys over-torque my nose gear? Or bang the elevator into
an adjacent aircraft?

Or, as has happened to me, put a small, but noticeable (and unexplained)
dent in the leading edge of the wing?

No thanks. I'll park and tie down myself every time.

At another airport.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"mindenpilot" > wrote in message
...
>
> Sorry for the rant.
> I just flew into Reno tonight.
> As it turns out, Sierra Air Center, the only GA facility on the ramp that
> doesn't charge a ramp fee, now charges a $15 parking fee.
> Yup, as of Jan 1 there's no more free landing at Reno.
> What makes it worse is they said, "There's no fee if you get 15 gallons of
> fuel".
> That sounded OK to me. I was almost full anyway.
> 18 gallons of fuel at $3.73 a gallon!
> It would have been cheaper if I filled up in Minden and paid the $15
> parking fee.
> It's only $2.80/gal in Minden!
> I felt violated!
>
> Man, I'm bummed.
> I liked to fly into Reno, get some lunch/dinner, practice in class C, etc.
> No more.
>

If you don't want to pay these fees you can limit your flying to fields
without FBOs.

[Nathan Young]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:42:38 -0800, "mindenpilot"
> wrote:

>Sorry for the rant.
>I just flew into Reno tonight.
>As it turns out, Sierra Air Center, the only GA facility on the ramp that
>doesn't charge a ramp fee, now charges a $15 parking fee.
>Yup, as of Jan 1 there's no more free landing at Reno.
>What makes it worse is they said, "There's no fee if you get 15 gallons of
>fuel".
>That sounded OK to me. I was almost full anyway.
>18 gallons of fuel at $3.73 a gallon!
>It would have been cheaper if I filled up in Minden and paid the $15 parking
>fee.
>It's only $2.80/gal in Minden!
>I felt violated!

When Meigs was open the numbers were similar, perhaps higher... I
recall a handling fee in addition to the parking fees.

It seems like a lot of money when you are used to parking for free at
most airports. Then I realized that I get to park for free in the
suburbs, and I do not downtown. Leaving my car overnight in a
downtown parking garage would have cost about the same as the Meigs
fees.

I never complained after that.

-Nathan

[Jay Honeck]

> If you don't want to pay these fees you can limit your flying to fields
> without FBOs.

???

You don't find charging $15 to park a Spam Can for 90 minutes to be
excessive?

I don't know where you fly, but here in the Midwest that FBO would be
ostracized out of existence.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> When Meigs was open the numbers were similar, perhaps higher... I
> recall a handling fee in addition to the parking fees.

Bad comparison. Everyone knew that Meigs was very, very special, and gave
you unprecedented access to one of the great cities of the world.

Despite this status, many of us bitched about paying that fee, too -- and
limited our visits to very special occasions. Chicago would have been
money ahead to have eliminated those fees.

And I've flown to Reno. Outside of the air races, which are held one week
per year, there is nothing there that would make me want to return.

But the market will work, as it always does. Either this FBO will shortly
be rolling in money, or they will be crying because all of their business
evaporated.

If I had to guess, however, it's more likely that they make 95% of their
money on charters, but spend 30% of their payroll servicing Spam Cans. Some
bean counter figured this out, and is now intentionally trying to drive away
the little guys.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:8KrKd.32689$EG1.17113@attbi_s53...
>
> You don't find charging $15 to park a Spam Can for 90 minutes to be
> excessive?
>

I understand free market competition and that FBOs need revenue. Don't want
to pay fees for parking? Don't go to airports that charge them.

[Dave S]

Some
> bean counter figured this out, and is now intentionally trying to drive away
> the little guys.

Or maybe have them pay their fair share...

Dave

[Robert M. Gary]

There's no free market out here in California, and I suspect the same
in Boston. It takes a blessing from the county/city to approve miles of
permits. The county councils interview applicants and approve their
favorite.

-Robert

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> There's no free market out here in California, and I suspect the same
> in Boston. It takes a blessing from the county/city to approve miles of
> permits. The county councils interview applicants and approve their
> favorite.
>

There are many in government that do not understand the value of free
markets. That's true nationwide.

[Matt Barrow]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > blatthered...
> > Man, I'm bummed.
> > I liked to fly into Reno, get some lunch/dinner, practice in class C,
etc.
> > No more.
> >
>
> If you don't want to pay these fees you can limit your flying to fields
> without FBOs.
>
Or you can fly into fields that don't charge the fees...and that's about 95%
of the fields that have FBO's.

Geez!!!
--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:8KrKd.32689$EG1.17113@attbi_s53...
> > If you don't want to pay these fees you can limit your flying to fields
> > without FBOs.
>
> ???
>
> You don't find charging $15 to park a Spam Can for 90 minutes to be
> excessive?
>
> I don't know where you fly, but here in the Midwest that FBO would be
> ostracized out of existence.

I think I've hit maybe two fields without FBO's in the past couple years,
only three or four that have fees, and NONE that are so egregious.

I love it when companies/communities shoot themselves in the ass then bitch
when it backfires in their face. :~)


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
.net...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:8KrKd.32689$EG1.17113@attbi_s53...
> >
> > You don't find charging $15 to park a Spam Can for 90 minutes to be
> > excessive?
> >
>
> I understand free market competition and that FBOs need revenue. Don't
want
> to pay fees for parking? Don't go to airports that charge them.

Free market competition on a municipally owned airport?

What school of economic theory is that from?


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[aluckyguess]

"Dave S" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> >
>> I wouldn't mind paying for something that I actually use.
>> I parked myself.
>> Tied myself down in an out-of-the-way little corner of asphalt, and was
>> there for about an hour and half.
>> $15 would buy me a week of tie-down at Minden.
>> Besides, as others will verify, they make their money from hangar rentals
>> and the biz jets.
>>
>> Actually, I don't even really mind the fee, it was just surprising.
>> What really gets me is the $3.73/gal.
>> How can it be $1.00/gal more for fuel at an FBO that undoubtedly has
>> higher volume than where I get it 30 miles away?
>> That is the part that is robbery.
>>
>> Adam
>> N7966L
>> Beech Super III
> Ok.. So.. since you are going to have to pay for it..
>
> Pull up in front like everyone else. Let them chock and park you.
>
> The cost is easier to explain. Thats how they make their money.. Either
> buy fuel or buy parking.
>
> And its not robbery.. You can choose not to go there and choose not to buy
> their fuel at that price.
>
> How much is the cost of convenience?
>
> Dave
>
When they park you and stuff are you supposed to give a tip?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> Free market competition on a municipally owned airport?
>
> What school of economic theory is that from?
>

Okay, you've never studied economics, but this isn't a proper forum for me
to teach it to you.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"aluckyguess" > wrote in message
...
>
> When they park you and stuff are you supposed to give a tip?

Why tip for something that you're already being charged for?

[Matt Barrow]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
.net...
>
> "aluckyguess" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > When they park you and stuff are you supposed to give a tip?
>
> Why tip for something that you're already being charged for?
>

Do you tip in a restaurant?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> Do you tip in a restaurant?
>

Yes. Why do you ask?

[Joe Johnson]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
.net...
>
> Yes. Why do you ask?
>
Because you paid for the food. The analogy to your remark is pretty
clear...

[Joe Johnson]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
>
> Okay, you've never studied economics, but this isn't a proper forum for me
> to teach it to you.
>
Ease up on the sarcasm. You failed to understand a simple analogy above.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Because you paid for the food. The analogy to your remark is pretty
> clear...
>

It's a bad analogy. In a restaurant I pay for the food and tip for the
service. If I'm being charged directly for parking why would I tip for
parking?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Ease up on the sarcasm. You failed to understand a simple analogy above.
>

Actually, it was you and Mr. Barrow that failed to understand that tipping
for a service is not analogous to being charged for a service.

[Gene Seibel]

That's why we always need to check http://www.airnav.com for gas
prices. The range is huge. I stop at a small airport and pay $2.22. I'm
told they still make 30 cents a gallon. I realize that larger airports
have a higher overhead, but I still believe the markups are often
excessive.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[[email protected]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> >
> >
>
> It's a bad analogy. In a restaurant I pay for the food and tip for
the
> service. If I'm being charged directly for parking why would I tip
for
> parking?


The analogy is sound...You would pay for the parking spot and tip for
the service.

With that being said there seems to be no rhyme or reason to tipping.
It seems to go by custom. It has nothing to do with what you have
already paid for. Take the barber shop for example. Why tip the guy
or gal when you just paid for the service? I don't know the answer to
that question, but it is customary to tip at the barber or a hotel room
for the maid service (whether you do or not is up to you). It is
perfectly logical to ask if it is customary to tip the lineboy. So
I'll ask the question too...is it?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> The analogy is sound...You would pay for the parking spot and tip for
> the service.
>

What service? Are we talking about valet aircraft parking? Telling me
where to park my airplane is not providing me with any service. It's a bad
analogy.

[Allen]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > The analogy is sound...You would pay for the parking spot and tip for
> > the service.
> >
>
> What service? Are we talking about valet aircraft parking? Telling me
> where to park my airplane is not providing me with any service. It's a
bad
> analogy.
>

Bringing me the food I ordered is not a service, that is what they are paid
for.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Allen" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> Bringing me the food I ordered is not a service, that is what they are
> paid
> for.
>

What are they paid by the restaurant to bring your food to you?

[Trent Moorehead]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
news:W0xKd.395

> What are they paid by the restaurant to bring your food to you?

Not much, that's why the waitpeople depend on tips. If you don't tip for
decent service, you're being cheap.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[Trent Moorehead]

> wrote in message
oups.com...

>It is perfectly logical to ask if it is customary to tip the lineboy. So
> I'll ask the question too...is it?

I would want to know if the linespeople depend on tips as part of their
salary, like waitpeople in restaurants. I, too, have wondered whether
tipping linespeople is customary. Sometimes the behavior of the employee
will tell you if they are waiting for a tip.

Once at an airport, I had a lineguy lead me to a parking spot. After I shut
down, he chocked the nosewheel and put a red mat outside my door for me to
step on. He asked if I needed fuel, which I didn't. He didn't stick around,
so I assumed that he didn't want or expect a tip. I haven't been to many big
airports, but the treatment there seemed tip-worthy to me. At almost all the
airports I've been to, you are left to your own devices to find a spot and
no one greets you, so this experience stands out for me.

At my home airport, there are no fees and the guy who runs the airport
usually does the fueling. I don't believe he expects a tip by virtue of his
position.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[George Patterson]

Allen wrote:
>
> Bringing me the food I ordered is not a service, that is what they are paid
> for.

Actually, it's not. Many places in this area actually charge the wait staff to
allow them to work there. Even where that is not the case, they are usually paid
little or nothing. They really are working for the tips.

George Patterson
He who marries for money earns every penny of it.

[Rob Montgomery]

Between renting the ramp space, the insurance and the cost of staffing the
place (not to mention inane TSA regulations), and the low volume of traffic,
I don't see how these charges are out of line. The airport charges the FBO
and the FBO charges you. I'd say we're getting one hell of a bargain (but,
don't tell any FBO owners that I said so :-)).

-Rob
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:8KrKd.32689$EG1.17113@attbi_s53...
>> If you don't want to pay these fees you can limit your flying to fields
>> without FBOs.
>
> ???
>
> You don't find charging $15 to park a Spam Can for 90 minutes to be
> excessive?
>
> I don't know where you fly, but here in the Midwest that FBO would be
> ostracized out of existence.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[jim rosinski]

mindenpilot wrote:

> What makes it worse is they said, "There's no fee if you get 15
> gallons of fuel".
> That sounded OK to me. I was almost full anyway.
> 18 gallons of fuel at $3.73 a gallon!

Hard to see how providing a second option "makes it worse". 15 gallons
is a pretty small number, so I think this option takes quite a bit of
the sting out of having to otherwise spend $15 for pretty close to
nothing.

Jim Rosinski

[Blueskies]

"Rob Montgomery" > wrote in message ...
> Between renting the ramp space, the insurance and the cost of staffing the place (not to mention inane TSA
> regulations), and the low volume of traffic, I don't see how these charges are out of line. The airport charges the
> FBO and the FBO charges you. I'd say we're getting one hell of a bargain (but, don't tell any FBO owners that I said
> so :-)).
>
> -Rob


What subsidies to the feds give to the airport? There should be a public transient parking area for (pick a time) short
term use...

[Matt Barrow]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> "Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > Because you paid for the food. The analogy to your remark is pretty
> > clear...
> >
>
> It's a bad analogy. In a restaurant I pay for the food and tip for the
> service. If I'm being charged directly for parking why would I tip for
> parking?
>
Do you tip the guy at the valet parking lot?


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Allen" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > >
> > > The analogy is sound...You would pay for the parking spot and tip for
> > > the service.
> > >
> >
> > What service? Are we talking about valet aircraft parking? Telling me
> > where to park my airplane is not providing me with any service. It's a
> bad
> > analogy.
> >
>
> Bringing me the food I ordered is not a service, that is what they are
paid
> for.
>

If they just tossed it on yur table I suspect you'd scream bloddy murder.
:~)

[Matt Barrow]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Allen wrote:
> >
> > Bringing me the food I ordered is not a service, that is what they are
paid
> > for.
>
> Actually, it's not. Many places in this area actually charge the wait
staff to
> allow them to work there. Even where that is not the case, they are
usually paid
> little or nothing. They really are working for the tips.

And the really good ones make plenty...the really bad ones last two days.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> . net...
> >
> > "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> >
> > Okay, you've never studied economics, but this isn't a proper forum for
me
> > to teach it to you.
> >
> Ease up on the sarcasm. You failed to understand a simple analogy above.

And his understanding of economic, particularly market economics is abysmal.

As usual, he demonstrates little knowledge outside ATC rules and comes
across as a pompous and ignorant fool with his foot stuck in his mouth up to
the knee.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Blueskies" > wrote in message
m...
>
> What subsidies to the feds give to the airport? There should be a public
transient
> parking area for (pick a time) short term use...

The subsidies go to the municipality that owns and operates the airport, not
the FBO.
--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[mindenpilot]

"jim rosinski" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> mindenpilot wrote:
>
>> What makes it worse is they said, "There's no fee if you get 15
>> gallons of fuel".
>> That sounded OK to me. I was almost full anyway.
>> 18 gallons of fuel at $3.73 a gallon!
>
> Hard to see how providing a second option "makes it worse". 15 gallons
> is a pretty small number, so I think this option takes quite a bit of
> the sting out of having to otherwise spend $15 for pretty close to
> nothing.
>
> Jim Rosinski
>

Or so they'd have you think.
It was worse because it would have been cheaper to just pay the $15 pay for
the difference in price on 18 gallons.
If I was empty, it would have cost me $60 more to fill up there than at my
home base.
If you subtract out the $15 fee that I didn't pay by buying fuel, I'm still
$45 in the hole!

Just a bummer all the way around.
The two other places that sell 100LL at Reno charge $3.99 and $3.50, so
Sierra is right in the middle.
Similar to the original question I posed, how is it that there is a $0.50
difference at the same airport?
That's a 15% difference (from the lowest to highest)?

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> Do you tip the guy at the valet parking lot?
>

Yes.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> And his understanding of economic, particularly market economics is
> abysmal.
>
> As usual, he demonstrates little knowledge outside ATC rules and comes
> across as a pompous and ignorant fool with his foot stuck in his mouth up
> to
> the knee.
>

Wrong on all counts. You are consistent, I'll give you that.

[ISLIP]

>Sorry for the rant.
>I just flew into Reno tonight.
>As it turns out, Sierra Air Center, the only GA facility on the ramp that
>doesn't charge a ramp fee, now charges a $15 parking fee.
>Yup, as of Jan 1 there's no more free landing at Reno.
>What makes it worse is they said, "There's no fee if you get 15 gallons of
>fuel".
>That sounded OK to me. I was almost full anyway.
>18 gallons of fuel at $3.73 a gallon!
>It would have been cheaper if I filled up in Minden and paid the $15 parking
>fee.
>It's only $2.80/gal in Minden!
>I felt violated!
>
>Man, I'm bummed.
>I liked to fly into Reno, get some lunch/dinner, practice in class C, etc.
>No more.
>
>Adam
>N7966L
>Beech Super III


KMTP, Montauk L.I. also charges $15 for parking but has no fuel. It's a great
place to fly into for lunch, the beach at the end of the runway, or golf . As a
resort area the price of land and housing is out of sight. If the property was
to be used for multi million dollar housing, would we regret not paying the
parking fee it it had helped keep the operation in business. Would we be
****ing and moaning if we had to pay parking fees to have kept Meigs open?

John

[Joe Johnson]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>>
> As usual, he demonstrates little knowledge outside ATC rules and comes
> across as a pompous and ignorant fool with his foot stuck in his mouth up
to
> the knee.
>
Agree with that, Matt...

[Jay Honeck]

>> Do you tip the guy at the valet parking lot?
>
> Yes.

If the line guy actually hopped in and taxied my plane to a remote parking
lot, I'd tip him.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Some
>> bean counter figured this out, and is now intentionally trying to drive
>> away the little guys.
>
> Or maybe have them pay their fair share...

I'd be interested to see your version of what our "fair share" should be.

Let's see, for Spam Cans we've got...

....wear and tear on the ramp -- none.
....usage of airspace...covered in fuel taxes.
....???

I suppose we flush the toilet when we pee, but I generally buy a pop or
candy bar, which should cover the water expense. And the line guy is paid
whether he's doing anything or not.

What other direct costs are there for a Cherokee parking at an FBO for 90
minutes?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> parking fee it it had helped keep the operation in business. Would we be
> ****ing and moaning if we had to pay parking fees to have kept Meigs open?

We DID pay exorbitant parking fees at Meigs -- and Daley bulldozed it
anyway.

Perversely, he was able to point to the low usage as a reason to close it,
completely ignoring the fact that traffic was kept low because of his
ridiculous $28 landing fee. Trust me, I'd have flown there every weekend
(and hundreds of other would have, too) without that landing fee.

And Chicago would have been millions of dollars ahead.

Of course, what can you expect from a regime that uses airport construction
money to destroy Meigs -- and then claims they "had to do it" because "Meigs
was abandoned..."?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Blueskies]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message ...
>
> "Blueskies" > wrote in message
> m...
>>
>> What subsidies to the feds give to the airport? There should be a public
> transient
>> parking area for (pick a time) short term use...
>
> The subsidies go to the municipality that owns and operates the airport, not
> the FBO.
> --
> Matt
> ---------------------



My point exactly...

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:PKMKd.34041$EG1.34022@attbi_s53...
> >> Do you tip the guy at the valet parking lot?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> If the line guy actually hopped in and taxied my plane to a remote parking
> lot, I'd tip him.

I tip the guy who chocks the wheels, helps with the luggage, and once one
big strapping young dude helped my mother-in-law out of the plane and into a
wheel chair, literally picking her up and carrying her.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Rosspilot]

>KMTP, Montauk L.I. also charges $15 for parking but has no fuel. It's a great
>place to fly into for lunch, the beach at the end of the runway, or golf . As
>a
>resort area the price of land and housing is out of sight. If the property
>was
>to be used for multi million dollar housing, would we regret not paying the
>parking fee it it had helped keep the operation in business.


Been to Montauk plenty of times . . . there is nothing at the airport but a pay
phone to call for a cab. The "beach" to which you refer is the Sound . . . if
you want to get to ANYTHING (restaurant or REAL beach) it is a $15 cab ride
there and $15 ride back. It is a resort area, so the landing/parking fee is
reasonable (and seasonal) and I don't mind paying it . . . but don't mislead
the folks into thinking that's all they have to pay.
www.Rosspilot.com

[[email protected]]

You are right if they just show you the spot, but occasionally I have
had them offer to help unload, arrange a car, reccomend a good place to
eat, or otherwise go beyond what they are paid to do (well, I guess
this is debateable). I always wonder if I should tip or just give a
good word to his boss. If I take advantage of the service I always
tip. Anybody else?

[Chris]

"mindenpilot" > wrote in message
...
>
> "jim rosinski" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> mindenpilot wrote:
>>
>>> What makes it worse is they said, "There's no fee if you get 15
>>> gallons of fuel".
>>> That sounded OK to me. I was almost full anyway.
>>> 18 gallons of fuel at $3.73 a gallon!
>>
>> Hard to see how providing a second option "makes it worse". 15 gallons
>> is a pretty small number, so I think this option takes quite a bit of
>> the sting out of having to otherwise spend $15 for pretty close to
>> nothing.
>>
>> Jim Rosinski
>>
>
> Or so they'd have you think.
> It was worse because it would have been cheaper to just pay the $15 pay
> for the difference in price on 18 gallons.
> If I was empty, it would have cost me $60 more to fill up there than at my
> home base.
> If you subtract out the $15 fee that I didn't pay by buying fuel, I'm
> still $45 in the hole!
>
> Just a bummer all the way around.
> The two other places that sell 100LL at Reno charge $3.99 and $3.50, so
> Sierra is right in the middle.
> Similar to the original question I posed, how is it that there is a $0.50
> difference at the same airport?
> That's a 15% difference (from the lowest to highest)?

If you were empty and did not want to pay that price for fuel, I guess it
would have cost you a lot more to get home and without the aircraft. What
do you want, welfare?

[Dave S]

The line guy is there wether you use him or not. He still gets paid, as
does all the other staff. They have their phone bill.. their light
bill.. their insurance. They have a lease to pay, and sometimes
franchise fees to the local municipality. You are a business owner Jay..
and a service oriented business owner at that..

What would your response be if I came to your hotel, stayed for 90
minutes, and wanted a prorated bill rate cause I didnt stay until the
next morning's checkout (lets say say I just wanted to catch my soap
opera or something outrageous.. in your Memphis Belle Suite. I didn't
mess up any towels, didnt turn down the bed, did't even make a phone
call. What would the cost be to "turn over" that room? Minimal. Your
housekeeper still needs to get paid wether you used her or not for that
room. Would you as a regular practice, prorate such an occurance? I am
inclined to believe no.

It may be an apples to oranges comparison, but I think the spirit of the
argument is similar. The FBO's charge X number of dollars for UP TO an
overnight parking.. You.. as a business owner, have the right to do
that. Even if you were the only hotel in town, you could choose to do
that. On the same token.. they, as a business, can choose to do the
same. You, as the pilot, can choose to use or not use the facilities.. I
don't demonize you for NOT renting your rooms out by the hour...

Just because the spam-can's aren't the bread and butter of a corporate
oriented FBO doesn't mean that the spam can's don't deserve to be
charged for use of the facilities.. Even parking can get pretty pricey
depending on where you are (for CARS...).. and not all parking lots
pro-rate EITHER, depending on demand.

Yer a great guy, Jay... and I respect you for all the hard work you've
done as a pilot and a business owner, so please dont think Im attacking
you personally.. but I think we prolly will disagree on this issue :)

Dave

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> Some
>>
>>>bean counter figured this out, and is now intentionally trying to drive
>>>away the little guys.
>>
>>Or maybe have them pay their fair share...
>
>
> I'd be interested to see your version of what our "fair share" should be.
>
> Let's see, for Spam Cans we've got...
>
> ...wear and tear on the ramp -- none.
> ...usage of airspace...covered in fuel taxes.
> ...???
>
> I suppose we flush the toilet when we pee, but I generally buy a pop or
> candy bar, which should cover the water expense. And the line guy is paid
> whether he's doing anything or not.
>
> What other direct costs are there for a Cherokee parking at an FBO for 90
> minutes?

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:41:02 GMT, Dave S wrote:

>I don't demonize you for NOT renting your rooms out by the hour...

this will open the hotel to a completely new clientel. :-))

#m

--
<http://www.terranova.net/content/images/goering.jpg>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Rosspilot" > wrote in message
...
>
> Been to Montauk plenty of times . . . there is nothing at the airport but
> a pay
> phone to call for a cab. The "beach" to which you refer is the Sound . .
> . if
> you want to get to ANYTHING (restaurant or REAL beach) it is a $15 cab
> ride
> there and $15 ride back. It is a resort area, so the landing/parking fee
> is
> reasonable (and seasonal) and I don't mind paying it . . . but don't
> mislead
> the folks into thinking that's all they have to pay.
>

If there's nothing at the airport but a pay phone how is the landing/parking
fee collected?

[Allen]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Allen" > wrote in message
> . com...
> >
> > "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> > nk.net...
> > >
> > > > wrote in message
> > > oups.com...
> > > >
> > > > The analogy is sound...You would pay for the parking spot and tip
for
> > > > the service.
> > > >
> > >
> > > What service? Are we talking about valet aircraft parking? Telling
me
> > > where to park my airplane is not providing me with any service. It's
a
> > bad
> > > analogy.
> > >
> >
> > Bringing me the food I ordered is not a service, that is what they are
> paid
> > for.
> >
>
> If they just tossed it on yur table I suspect you'd scream bloddy murder.
> :~)
>

No, I don't scream, and even if I did I am not even sure what bloddy murder
is :(

[Allen]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
.net...
>
> "Allen" > wrote in message
> . com...
> >
> > Bringing me the food I ordered is not a service, that is what they are
> > paid
> > for.
> >
>
> What are they paid by the restaurant to bring your food to you?
>

What are the lineboys paid to come out in the rain, snow, heat/cold and show
you where to park and help tiedown?

[Matt Barrow]

"Allen" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Allen" > wrote in message
> > . com...
> > >
> > > "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> > > nk.net...
> > > >
> > > > > wrote in message
> > > > oups.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > The analogy is sound...You would pay for the parking spot and tip
> for
> > > > > the service.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > What service? Are we talking about valet aircraft parking? Telling
> me
> > > > where to park my airplane is not providing me with any service.
It's
> a
> > > bad
> > > > analogy.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Bringing me the food I ordered is not a service, that is what they are
> > paid
> > > for.
> > >
> >
> > If they just tossed it on yur table I suspect you'd scream bloddy
murder.
> > :~)
> >
>
> No, I don't scream, and even if I did I am not even sure what bloddy
murder
> is :(
>
Screaming in a British accent (with your glasses off).

[Mike Rapoport]

"mindenpilot" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry for the rant.
> I just flew into Reno tonight.
> As it turns out, Sierra Air Center, the only GA facility on the ramp that
> doesn't charge a ramp fee, now charges a $15 parking fee.
> Yup, as of Jan 1 there's no more free landing at Reno.
> What makes it worse is they said, "There's no fee if you get 15 gallons of
> fuel".
> That sounded OK to me. I was almost full anyway.
> 18 gallons of fuel at $3.73 a gallon!
> It would have been cheaper if I filled up in Minden and paid the $15
> parking fee.
> It's only $2.80/gal in Minden!
> I felt violated!
>
> Man, I'm bummed.
> I liked to fly into Reno, get some lunch/dinner, practice in class C, etc.
> No more.
>
> Adam
> N7966L
> Beech Super III


To be fair Reno International isn't Minden and if they didn't charge a ramp
fee they would not get any revenue from transient GA. They are paying to
lease that ramp space. Compare it to Logan, SFO or O'Hare and you will feel
better. I just paid over $100 for landing, two nights parking and handling
at KSUN this morning.

Mike
MU-2

[mindenpilot]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
nk.net...

> To be fair Reno International isn't Minden and if they didn't charge a
> ramp fee they would not get any revenue from transient GA. They are
> paying to lease that ramp space. Compare it to Logan, SFO or O'Hare and
> you will feel better. I just paid over $100 for landing, two nights
> parking and handling at KSUN this morning.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>

Ouch!
OK, I'll quit whining!

BTW, my VFR buddy and I shot the ILS into RNO today (practice).
That was pretty cool! I was surprised at how accurate my radios were.
It was fun testing my skills.
I think I might just start that instrument training.

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[Jay Honeck]

> What would your response be if I came to your hotel, stayed for 90
> minutes, and wanted a prorated bill rate cause I didnt stay until the next
> morning's checkout (lets say say I just wanted to catch my soap opera or
> something outrageous.. in your Memphis Belle Suite.

Not a great analogy. The purpose of an airport is to serve transient
aircraft (and, thus, travelers). These aircraft are on the airport
anywhere from 10 minutes, to permanently. The purpose of an FBO is serve
those pilots who fly those aircraft, by selling them fuel, maintenance,
upgrades, etc.

The purpose of a reputable hotel is to serve overnight guests -- period.
The purpose of a luxury suites hotel like ours is to provide the guest with
a unique, memorable experience. Charging rent for less than a full night
falls into the realm of a fleabag, sleazy motel. (Although I suppose the
experience might still be memorable! :-)

The only income we have is from guests staying overnight. The same cannot
be said for FBOs, which have multiple revenue streams.

> Just because the spam-can's aren't the bread and butter of a corporate
> oriented FBO doesn't mean that the spam can's don't deserve to be charged
> for use of the facilities.. Even parking can get pretty pricey depending
> on where you are (for CARS...).. and not all parking lots pro-rate EITHER,
> depending on demand.

If FBOs didn't make money on fuel sales, repairs, and charters, you'd have a
point. However, most FBOs understand that Spam Can pilots are tomorrow's
CFIs and charter pilots. They are also the guys who will be paying for the
shop, by having their A&Ps do major and minor maintenance. Embracing them
and making them feel welcome at their facility is an intrinsic part of every
successful FBO's business plan -- UNLESS they are so successful with
charters and fuel sales that they feel they can afford to drive the little
guys away.

It sure sounds like this is what is happening in Reno, and charging $15 to
park for 90 minutes will quickly and efficiently drive all the Spam Can
drivers away.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Allen" > wrote in message
om...
>> >
>> > Bringing me the food I ordered is not a service, that is what they are
>> > paid for.
>> >
>>
>> What are they paid by the restaurant to bring your food to you?
>>
>
> What are the lineboys paid to come out in the rain, snow, heat/cold and
> show
> you where to park and help tiedown?
>

Nine bucks an hour. I answered your question, can you answer mine?

[steve.t]

You would tip for parking if they were going to park you promptly (TIP:
To Insure Promptness). You would give a gratuity if you were especially
pleased with the service.

With that having been said, too many use TIP incorrectly, so that when
you DO TIP, the wait staff has no idea what it really means (many have
expected that to be their gratuity).

Ok, on to the real question. No, you do not TIP the line person as they
are not being paid the lower minimum wage that restaurants are allowed
to pay. The airport personnel are involved in interestate commerce and
are subject to the Federal Min Wage (or state if it is higher).

And since I'm not a lawyer, do not pretend to be one on the Internet,
and do not stay at a Holiday Inn Express, do not take anything I post
here as legal advice. Doing so makes this posting null and void.

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

ps. I'm also a biz owner and operate/consult to another start-up
company.

[Matt Barrow]

"steve.t" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> You would tip for parking if they were going to park you promptly (TIP:
> To Insure Promptness). You would give a gratuity if you were especially
> pleased with the service.
>
> With that having been said, too many use TIP incorrectly, so that when
> you DO TIP, the wait staff has no idea what it really means (many have
> expected that to be their gratuity).
>
> Ok, on to the real question. No, you do not TIP the line person as they
> are not being paid the lower minimum wage that restaurants are allowed
> to pay. The airport personnel are involved in interestate commerce and
> are subject to the Federal Min Wage (or state if it is higher).

You (at least I) tip because you're (I'm) pleased with service "above and
beyond". Then, I'm more like Rodney Dangerfield's character in Caddyshack.

And there are more than a few restaurants I've tipped 25 cents to subtlety
state the service I got sucked.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Chris Colohan]

"steve.t" > writes:

> You would tip for parking if they were going to park you promptly (TIP:
> To Insure Promptness). You would give a gratuity if you were especially
> pleased with the service.

If this is what "tip" meant, wouldn't it properly be spelled "tep"?

Or do you think your gratuity goes straight into a policy from State
Farm?

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751

[Jeff Shirton]

"Trent Moorehead" > wrote in message
...

> Not much, that's why the waitpeople depend on tips. If you
> don't tip for decent service, you're being cheap.

It seems to me that patrons have to tip because the *restaurant*
employers are being cheap, and not paying a decent wage.

Tips have become "expected", regardless of quality of service,
as an additional surcharge.

I worked retail for 5 years, and never got tipped once (nor
did I expect it, that is not the customers' responsibility, IMO).
OTOH, cooks don't get tips, but servers do. What's fair
about that?

No, put the bill for the wages where they belong... on the
*employer*.

--
Jeff Shirton jshirton at cogeco dot
ca
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
"[T]he gospel is not that man can become god,
but that God became a man." -- James White
Challenge me (Theophilus) for a game of chess at Chessworld.net!

[Jeff Shirton]

"Trent Moorehead" > wrote in message
...

> Once at an airport, I had a lineguy lead me to a parking spot. After I
> shut
> down, he chocked the nosewheel and put a red mat outside my door for me to
> step on. He asked if I needed fuel, which I didn't. He didn't stick
> around,
> so I assumed that he didn't want or expect a tip. I haven't been to many
> big
> airports, but the treatment there seemed tip-worthy to me.

Indeed.

And IMO, *that* should be the criterion for tipping, going out of your
way to provide extra-ordinary service. Not simply "tip me because I
did my job".

It seems to me that it would be very appropriate to (1) mention your
appreciation with his boss, and/or (2) recommend the place to others,
word-of-mouth.

> -Trent

--
Jeff Shirton jshirton at cogeco dot
ca
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below
and smitethee. - William Kershner
Challenge me (Theophilus) for a game of chess at Chessworld.net!

[gregg]

Jay Honeck wrote:


> Charging rent for less than a full
> night falls into the realm of a fleabag, sleazy motel. (Although I suppose
> the
> experience might still be memorable! :-)

;^) Depends upon the co-pilot


--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:cXZKd.37248$eT5.12945@attbi_s51...

> > What would your response be if I came to your hotel, stayed for 90
> > minutes, and wanted a prorated bill rate cause I didnt stay until the
next
> > morning's checkout (lets say say I just wanted to catch my soap opera or
> > something outrageous.. in your Memphis Belle Suite.
>
> It sure sounds like this is what is happening in Reno, and charging $15 to
> park for 90 minutes will quickly and efficiently drive all the Spam Can
> drivers away.

Kind of reminds me of the "fire your worst customers" strategy (see
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1423605,00.asp for a sample) that's
been getting out there in the past five years. It sounds good in principle
to quit serving markets that cost you 10% while only delivering 5% of
revenue. Sometimes it may even work. But businesses are like ecosystems- you
cut one part out and things you never thought about break, perhaps years
later.

-cwk.

[Joe Johnson]

"Chris Colohan" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> If this is what "tip" meant, wouldn't it properly be spelled "tep"?
>
> Or do you think your gratuity goes straight into a policy from State
> Farm?
>
> Chris
> --
> Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger
> Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751

An widely used alternative definition of insure *is* synonymous with ensure,
assure, etc. Check any dictionary.

[Allen]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Allen" > wrote in message
> om...
> >> >
> >> > Bringing me the food I ordered is not a service, that is what they
are
> >> > paid for.
> >> >
> >>
> >> What are they paid by the restaurant to bring your food to you?
> >>
> >
> > What are the lineboys paid to come out in the rain, snow, heat/cold and
> > show
> > you where to park and help tiedown?
> >
>
> Nine bucks an hour. I answered your question, can you answer mine?


$5.15 /hour. A typical dinner out for my wife and I costs about $50.00. If
the server does a good job I tip him $10.00. If he waits on no other tables
during that hour he makes $15.15. If he has other tables then who knows
what he makes. That includes the U. S. government for tax purposes.

[Trent Moorehead]

"Jeff Shirton" > wrote in message
...

<snip>
> I worked retail for 5 years, and never got tipped once (nor
> did I expect it, that is not the customers' responsibility, IMO).
> OTOH, cooks don't get tips, but servers do. What's fair
> about that?

I've worked retail for about the same as you, but I was making more than
minimum wage. Waitstaff make well below minimum wage and depend on tips to
make up the difference. A cook's base pay is governed by the minimum wage
law, so they get paid more than waitstaff, but the waitstaff can potentially
make much more than the cooks. If you had said that you worked as a waiter
for 5 years, then you'd have an argument there.

My wife was a waitress for a while. She made a pile of money, but only made
$2.35/hr. before tips. And, she had to share some of her tip money with the
bartender. There are some weird policies in restaurants that the patrons
never know about. We both gained a lot of respect for good waitpeople after
her tenure. It's harder than it looks.

> No, put the bill for the wages where they belong... on the
> *employer*.

I don't know, I like the thought that the waiter/waitress is working for ME.
Just imagine what kind of service you'd get in a restaurant if the waitstaff
was salaried. There would be no incentive for them to work for you, just as
long as the boss is happy, and he/she's not around most of the time.

I think the problem is that a lot of people have never waited tables and
don't know how the game works. Waiters and waitresses are really working for
YOU, so you should pay them accordingly. You are in charge here. If your
waiter does a lousy job, tip very little (more insulting than not tipping at
all) AND complain to the manager. But, if you get decent to great service,
you're just being cheap if you don't tip. Either that, or you are ignorant
to the facts I just outlined.

Now, about linespeople, *I* am ignorant about that. :)

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[Chris Colohan]

"Joe Johnson" > writes:
> An widely used alternative definition of insure *is* synonymous with ensure,
> assure, etc. Check any dictionary.

I looked it up in Webster's and the OED. They seem to agree that the
common usage of each word is slightly different, but they are synonyms
for all intensive purposes.

....and I has always given them different meanings in my head. Thank
you, I learned something today. :-)

Btw, my web searching reveals that someone has written an article on
the origins of the word "tip":
http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/tip.htm

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751

[Allen]

"Chris Colohan" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Joe Johnson" > writes:
> > An widely used alternative definition of insure *is* synonymous with
ensure,
> > assure, etc. Check any dictionary.
>
> I looked it up in Webster's and the OED. They seem to agree that the
> common usage of each word is slightly different, but they are synonyms
> for all intensive purposes.
>

perhaps "for all intended puposes"?

[Chris Colohan]

"Allen" > writes:
> > I looked it up in Webster's and the OED. They seem to agree that the
> > common usage of each word is slightly different, but they are synonyms
> > for all intensive purposes.
> >
>
> perhaps "for all intended puposes"?

Urk! I surrender! :-)

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751

[Gary Drescher]

"Allen" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Chris Colohan" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> I looked it up in Webster's and the OED. They seem to agree that the
>> common usage of each word is slightly different, but they are synonyms
>> for all intensive purposes.
>>
>
> perhaps "for all intended puposes"?

Actually, the phrase is "for all intents and purposes".

--Gary

[Allen]

> "Allen" > wrote in message
> . com...
> >
> > "Chris Colohan" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> >> I looked it up in Webster's and the OED. They seem to agree that the
> >> common usage of each word is slightly different, but they are synonyms
> >> for all intensive purposes.
> >>
> >
> > perhaps "for all intended puposes"?

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
...
>
> Actually, the phrase is "for all intents and purposes".
>
> --Gary
>

But it worked for my intended purpose ;) , Bye

[Jeff Shirton]

"Trent Moorehead" > wrote in message
...

> Waitstaff make well below minimum wage and depend on tips to
> make up the difference.

And that's the *problem*.

> If you had said that you worked as a waiter
> for 5 years, then you'd have an argument there.

I'm just pointing out that the idea of working retail, without
getting "tips", can and does work.

> My wife was a waitress for a while. She made a pile of money,
> but only made $2.35/hr. before tips.

So her employer was grossly underpaying her.
What's your point?

(And before you point out that other restaurants pay the
same, I'll simply point out that they are equally at fault.)

> There are some weird policies in restaurants that the patrons
> never know about.

And those "policies" are *wrong*. IMO.
Is there some rule that policies are "right", just because
they are in force?

> We both gained a lot of respect for good waitpeople after
> her tenure. It's harder than it looks.

One doesn't need to realize that servers work hard,
to realize that the problem comes from their employers
underpaying them.

> I don't know, I like the thought that the waiter/waitress is
> working for ME.

???
Do you tip the department store salesperson as well,
because they are "working for YOU"? Surely you
tip the shoe salesman, right? Do you tip the server
at Mickey-D's? Aren't they working for you as well?
(And yes, Mickey-D servers sometimes have to bring
the food to your table, or to you car, so yo *BETTER*
tip them, right?)

> Just imagine what kind of service you'd get in a restaurant
> if the waitstaff was salaried.

That would depend on the ethics of the waitstaff, and
on the employer.

> There would be no incentive for them to work for you,
> just as long as the boss is happy, and he/she's not around
> most of the time.

So you're basing your theoretical argument on ignorance
of the boss? Sounds pretty lame to me. If the boss isn't
aware of how his business operates, that's another issue
entirely.

You seem to be almost intentionally avoiding the real
situation of waitstaff working for a proper wage (who
says they have to be salaried?), and if their work isn't
acceptable, then (1) the boss will notice, or (2) the
customers will complain, and that person will be
fired. It seems to me that job security is a pretty good
incentive to do a good job. (But that's just me.)

Other retail outlets do this all the time. Why is it
so hard to conceive that the food industry could/should
work in the same way?

> I think the problem is that a lot of people have never
> waited tables and don't know how the game works.

I thikn the problem is that a lot of people never realize
that the game is designed with *bad* rules.

> Waiters and waitresses are really working for YOU,

So is everyone else that you don't tip.

> so you should pay them accordingly.

That's why the business doesn't charge "cost" for their
goods, because they have to pay their staff. And so
we actually *do* pay for the staff, only we do it through
the cost of goods, rather than "tipping".

> But, if you get decent to great service, you're just being
> cheap if you don't tip.

Not at all.
I paid for the service when I paid my bill.
If the employer underpays his/her staff, that's the
employer's problem.

> Either that, or you are ignorant to the facts I just outlined.

<sigh>
What arrogance!

So no one's allowed to disagree with you, anyone
who disagrees with you is "ignorant", because you
are always right, and anyone who disagrees with you
is "therefore" wrong? You are the supreme authority,
you are the centre of the universe? Is that it?

Why don't you try opening your mind to the fact that
you might not know everything, and that you might
just be wrong once in a while?

> -Trent

--
Jeff Shirton jshirton at cogeco dot
ca
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Keep thy airspeed up, lest the earth come from below
and smite thee. - William Kershner
Challenge me (Theophilus) for a game of chess at Chessworld.net!

[Morgans]

"Jeff Shirton" > wrote

> And that's the *problem*.

This all boils down to a "cultural thing".

In the US, tips for waiters are the norm. In other places, it is not. Do
whatever is the custom in the area you are in.

In Europe, I had some of the worst service I have ever had in a restaurant.
Tipping was not the custom, in that country. There was no incentive to do a
great job, IMHO.

I like it when you get to vote on the service you get, with your wallet. It
makes me feel better, when the service is poor. When the service stinks
where there is no tipping, you live with it, and you leave. Period.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Jeff Shirton" > wrote in message
...
> "Trent Moorehead" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> And here's another good argument against tipping.
> Tipping is income "under the table", and avoids
> income tax.

Bull. The IRS assumes tips of 15%.
--
Jim in NC

[Dan Girellini]

"Morgans" > writes:

> I like it when you get to vote on the service you get, with your wallet. It
> makes me feel better, when the service is poor. When the service stinks
> where there is no tipping, you live with it, and you leave. Period.

And you don't go back. That's voting with your wallet too.

d.

[Jeff Shirton]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...

>> And that's the *problem*.
>
> This all boils down to a "cultural thing".

Close.

It boils down to, "we do it because that's the way it's always been done",
which to me isn't a good reason.

> I like it when you get to vote on the service you get, with your wallet.

So when was the last time you "voted" by tipping the grocery store
cashier, or the server behind the "Taco Bell" counter, or the Walmart
stock boy?

> Jim

--
Jeff Shirton jshirton at cogeco dot
ca
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Keep thy airspeed up, lest the earth come from below
and smite thee. - William Kershner
Challenge me (Theophilus) for a game of chess at Chessworld.net!

[Jay Honeck]

> $5.15 /hour. A typical dinner out for my wife and I costs about $50.00.
> If
> the server does a good job I tip him $10.00. If he waits on no other
> tables
> during that hour he makes $15.15. If he has other tables then who knows
> what he makes. That includes the U. S. government for tax purposes.

$15.15 per hour for an entry-level job is fabulous. Our house-keepers make
$7.75 to start. Our desk staff earns $8.00.

Now let's assume that this waiter works another few tables at the same time.
Suddenly he's making more per hour than a UAW line-worker in Detroit.

Of course, arguably he's doing a much harder job, but that's another topic.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> In Europe, I had some of the worst service I have ever had in a
> restaurant.
> Tipping was not the custom, in that country. There was no incentive to do
> a
> great job, IMHO.

Same was true in South America. We had five people waiting on us -- and
the service STILL sucked.

I finally cornered the girl with the coffee pot, and very carefully
explained to her that my five dollar bill was hers if ONLY she kept my
coffee cup full. After a couple of days, she got the message.

The trouble was that the wait staff split all tips equally. Since they had
so many people on staff (the hotel was apparently seen as a make-work
project) each person's share of any tip was miniscule, and any incentive was
lost.

By giving my tip to this chick on the side, she was able to reap the benefit
of her efforts.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> So here we have a situation where (1) the server
> isn't adequately paid by the employer, and (2) is
> being overcharged in income tax. And you don't
> see anything wrong with this setup?!?!

See my post, above. A good wait person can make HUGE money, far above what
most assembly line workers can earn.

And assuming a 15% tip isn't excessive nowadays. Around here, 15% is the
norm for adequate service.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Morgans]

"Dan Girellini" > wrote in message
...
> "Morgans" > writes:
>
> > I like it when you get to vote on the service you get, with your wallet.
It
> > makes me feel better, when the service is poor. When the service stinks
> > where there is no tipping, you live with it, and you leave. Period.
>
> And you don't go back. That's voting with your wallet too.
>
> d.

Hardly practical, when you are passing through a city, likely, never to
return again.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Jeff Shirton" > wrote in message
...
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >> And that's the *problem*.
> >
> > This all boils down to a "cultural thing".
>
> Close.
>
> It boils down to, "we do it because that's the way it's always been done",
> which to me isn't a good reason.
>
> > I like it when you get to vote on the service you get, with your wallet.
>
> So when was the last time you "voted" by tipping the grocery store
> cashier, or the server behind the "Taco Bell" counter, or the Walmart
> stock boy?

I see your mind is firmly made up, but the guy behind a fast food counter,
or the stockboy at the supermarket does not have any lasting impact on how I
spend the hour (or more) that I am totally dependent on the waiter.

I quit. The last word is yours.
--
Jim in NC

[Jeff Shirton]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...

>> So when was the last time you "voted" by tipping the grocery store
>> cashier, or the server behind the "Taco Bell" counter, or the Walmart
>> stock boy?
>
> I see your mind is firmly made up,

Not at all.
But it's sad to see that the people in this thread who are unable
to accept that other people disagree with them have to resort
to name-calling, rather than offering a valid argument.

> but the guy behind a fast food counter, or the stockboy at the
> supermarket does not have any lasting impact on how I
> spend the hour (or more) that I am totally dependent on the waiter.

I've never been "totally dependent on the waiter" at a restaurant
when I have been fine dining.

I still fail to see why you (and others) single out one particular
service occupation to "tip", to the exclusion of all others. This
reeks of special pleading to me. It seems to me that there is no
basis for it, other than, "but that's the way we've always done it".

I certainly have an open mind, but until I see a compelling reason
to change it, I don't see any reason to do so. And the only responses
I've seen so far are:

- "because that's how we've always done it!"
- "it's the culture!"
- "you're ignorant!!!!"
- "you're closed-minded!!!"

None of these seem like valid reasons to me.

> Jim in NC

--
Jeff Shirton jshirton at cogeco dot ca
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
The winner of the game is the player
who makes the next-to-last mistake. - Tartakover
Challenge me (Theophilus) for a game of chess at Chessworld.net!

[Trent Moorehead]

"Jeff Shirton" > wrote in message
...
> > Either that, or you are ignorant to the facts I just outlined.
>
> <sigh>
> What arrogance!
>
> So no one's allowed to disagree with you, anyone
> who disagrees with you is "ignorant", because you
> are always right, and anyone who disagrees with you
> is "therefore" wrong? You are the supreme authority,
> you are the centre of the universe? Is that it?
>
> Why don't you try opening your mind to the fact that
> you might not know everything, and that you might
> just be wrong once in a while?

Whoa there! I'm far from the center of the universe. I was just offering a
point of view. You offered yours. There is no right or wrong here.

About the "ignorant" part, I was truly talking in the general sense. I
didn't mean you personally, no offense meant.

Supreme authority has a nice ring to it though.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[George Patterson]

Jeff Shirton wrote:
>
> How does the IRS know your occupation?

You are required to state your occupation on your return.

George Patterson
He who marries for money earns every penny of it.

[Matt Barrow]

"Jeff Shirton" > wrote in message
...
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >> And here's another good argument against tipping.
> >> Tipping is income "under the table", and avoids
> >> income tax.
> >
> > Bull. The IRS assumes tips of 15%.
>
> How does the IRS know your occupation?
> (Or are you saying that it "assumes" that all occupations
> receive 15% tips?)

Because the restaurant has to report income to the IRS with withholding
information for the pay stub.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Gig Giacona]

"Jeff Shirton" > wrote in message
...
> "Trent Moorehead" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> And here's another good argument against tipping.
> Tipping is income "under the table", and avoids
> income tax.
>
> Better for the employer to pay it, and everything
> be above board. More honest that way, and no
> problems with defrauding the government.
>

No statement for or against tipping and I don't deny that all of tips aren't
reported but a significant percentage is.

[Allen]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:4GBLd.40582$EG1.32583@attbi_s53...
> > $5.15 /hour. A typical dinner out for my wife and I costs about $50.00.
> > If
> > the server does a good job I tip him $10.00. If he waits on no other
> > tables
> > during that hour he makes $15.15. If he has other tables then who knows
> > what he makes. That includes the U. S. government for tax purposes.
>
> $15.15 per hour for an entry-level job is fabulous. Our house-keepers
make
> $7.75 to start. Our desk staff earns $8.00.
>
> Now let's assume that this waiter works another few tables at the same
time.
> Suddenly he's making more per hour than a UAW line-worker in Detroit.
>
> Of course, arguably he's doing a much harder job, but that's another
topic.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>


Thank you Jay, it appears you and I have the same take on this. For the
previous poster that said he knows of restaurants that charges waiters to
work for them, well, that's just nuts. (Hey, maybe if I pay the Dallas
Cowboys enough they will let me fly them in their jet).

Allen

[Jay Beckman]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:4GBLd.40582$EG1.32583@attbi_s53...
>> $5.15 /hour. A typical dinner out for my wife and I costs about $50.00.
>> If
>> the server does a good job I tip him $10.00. If he waits on no other
>> tables
>> during that hour he makes $15.15. If he has other tables then who knows
>> what he makes. That includes the U. S. government for tax purposes.
>
> $15.15 per hour for an entry-level job is fabulous. Our house-keepers
> make $7.75 to start. Our desk staff earns $8.00.
>
> Now let's assume that this waiter works another few tables at the same
> time. Suddenly he's making more per hour than a UAW line-worker in
> Detroit.
>

He or She would need more than just a few tables to equal UAW wages.

Which might explain much in terms of the history of the US auto industry.
But that is a rant for another time and place. (Caveat: I approach this
subject from the POV of someone who grew up in a "white collar" GM family.)

>
> Of course, arguably he's doing a much harder job, but that's another
> topic.
>

To whom are you refering? The waiter or the UAW worker? I'd say the waiter
is working much, much harder.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[dave]

Jay,

My wife and I just spent three nights at a Hilton in Lake Placid, NY
(boy do I wish I'd flown up but that's a different story). We left a
$10.00 tip for the maids. Is that enough? Do many people leave tips
for your staff? What is an appropriate tip?

I guess I'm more inclined to tip when in doubt. Trying to justify not
tipping seems cheap.

Dave
68 7ECA

[Jay Honeck]

> My wife and I just spent three nights at a Hilton in Lake Placid, NY
> (boy do I wish I'd flown up but that's a different story). We left a

> $10.00 tip for the maids. Is that enough? Do many people leave
tips
> for your staff? What is an appropriate tip?

That's plenty. Most people still do not tip housekeepers. (The ones
who do tend to tip very well...)

With our full kitchens -- and full-sized refrigerators -- a surprising
number of people leave them beer and wine, however! (For which they
are forever grateful... ;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[dave]

We were on a bus trip with our ski club so we had to take the booze for
the ride home:)

Dave
68 7ECA

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>My wife and I just spent three nights at a Hilton in Lake Placid, NY
>>(boy do I wish I'd flown up but that's a different story). We left a
>
>
>>$10.00 tip for the maids. Is that enough? Do many people leave
>
> tips
>
>>for your staff? What is an appropriate tip?
>
>
> That's plenty. Most people still do not tip housekeepers. (The ones
> who do tend to tip very well...)
>
> With our full kitchens -- and full-sized refrigerators -- a surprising
> number of people leave them beer and wine, however! (For which they
> are forever grateful... ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Rich Lemert]

Gig Giacona wrote:

> "Jeff Shirton" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Trent Moorehead" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>And here's another good argument against tipping.
>>Tipping is income "under the table", and avoids
>>income tax.
>>
>>Better for the employer to pay it, and everything
>>be above board. More honest that way, and no
>>problems with defrauding the government.
>>
>
>
> No statement for or against tipping and I don't deny that all of tips aren't
> reported but a significant percentage is.
>
>

IIRC, the IRS has developed standard estimates of how much 'tip'
income people in different jobs typically get. If you don't report
something in the ballpark, you'd better have plenty of documentation.
(Of course, this was several years ago so my memory may be fuzzy.)

Rich Lemert

[Jay Honeck]

> To whom are you refering? The waiter or the UAW worker? I'd say the
> waiter is working much, much harder.

That's exactly what I meant.

Waiting tables is very difficult to do well. But for those that master the
art, they make a LOT of money, especially at higher-end restaurants.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Frank]

Morgans wrote:

>
> "Jeff Shirton" > wrote
>
>> And that's the *problem*.
>
> This all boils down to a "cultural thing".
>
> In the US, tips for waiters are the norm. In other places, it is not. Do
> whatever is the custom in the area you are in.
>
> In Europe, I had some of the worst service I have ever had in a
> restaurant.
> Tipping was not the custom, in that country. There was no incentive to do
> a great job, IMHO.
>
> I like it when you get to vote on the service you get, with your wallet.
> It
> makes me feel better, when the service is poor. When the service stinks
> where there is no tipping, you live with it, and you leave. Period.

It seems to me the "cultural" part pertains more to the "culture" of the
restaurant than of the locale.

I get good service in most places, whether they are in Europe or here. I get
more bad service here in the US, but it seems more related to the people
involved and how the establishment is run than whether or not tips are
involved.

I will say that regardless of quality of service, politeness, as measured by
the use of the phrase "thank you", is much better in Europe. It's getting
to the point where I am now surprised when I hear it here in the US.

--
Frank....H

[Roger]

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 21:05:20 GMT, "Allen" >
wrote:


>
>Thank you Jay, it appears you and I have the same take on this. For the
>previous poster that said he knows of restaurants that charges waiters to
>work for them, well, that's just nuts. (Hey, maybe if I pay the Dallas
>Cowboys enough they will let me fly them in their jet).

There was a news story not too long ago.. (last couple of years) about
some resteurants that charged the waiters and waitresses to work
there. They got to keep all of their tips and were making more than
I did as an experienced project manager.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>Allen
>

[Roger]

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:13:18 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
wrote:

>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>news:4GBLd.40582$EG1.32583@attbi_s53...
>>> $5.15 /hour. A typical dinner out for my wife and I costs about $50.00.
>>> If
>>> the server does a good job I tip him $10.00. If he waits on no other
>>> tables
>>> during that hour he makes $15.15. If he has other tables then who knows
>>> what he makes. That includes the U. S. government for tax purposes.
>>
>> $15.15 per hour for an entry-level job is fabulous. Our house-keepers
>> make $7.75 to start. Our desk staff earns $8.00.
>>
>> Now let's assume that this waiter works another few tables at the same
>> time. Suddenly he's making more per hour than a UAW line-worker in
>> Detroit.
>>
>
>He or She would need more than just a few tables to equal UAW wages.

Depends on the restaurant.
>
>Which might explain much in terms of the history of the US auto industry.
>But that is a rant for another time and place. (Caveat: I approach this
>subject from the POV of someone who grew up in a "white collar" GM family.)

I worked the assembly line many, many, many years ago right out of
high school. Then a good job came along, and after 26 years of that I
quit and went back to college to get a degree.

Much depends on the job, the line, the plant... etc.

>
>>
>> Of course, arguably he's doing a much harder job, but that's another
>> topic.
>>
>
>To whom are you refering? The waiter or the UAW worker? I'd say the waiter
>is working much, much harder.

In most cases I'd agree, but an assembly line at a metal stamping
plant is something else on a hot summer day. (or night)

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>Jay Beckman
>PP-ASEL
>Chandler, AZ
>

[clyde woempner]

My wife and I was there last June for a three day week-end and they treated
us very nice. Sure we had to pay for 2 nights tiedown, the thrid one was
free because we bought fuel. If I remember right it was around 2.65/gal,
really not a big deal. Also when they park the plane they put a pad lock on
the tie-down chain. What disappointed me was the hotel would not pick us
up there, we had to be at the main terminal across the field in order to get
picked up, so we just got a taxi. This year we have picked a different
hotel. All part of the cost of flying and it is worth it, what a beautiful
flight and such a good time at the Reno EuroFest at the Rail City, which is
not where we stayed. Some really good German beer, even made me get out and
dance, did I mention the good looking lady"s.
Clyde

"mindenpilot" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry for the rant.
> I just flew into Reno tonight.
> As it turns out, Sierra Air Center, the only GA facility on the ramp that
> doesn't charge a ramp fee, now charges a $15 parking fee.
> Yup, as of Jan 1 there's no more free landing at Reno.
> What makes it worse is they said, "There's no fee if you get 15 gallons of
> fuel".
> That sounded OK to me. I was almost full anyway.
> 18 gallons of fuel at $3.73 a gallon!
> It would have been cheaper if I filled up in Minden and paid the $15
parking
> fee.
> It's only $2.80/gal in Minden!
> I felt violated!
>
> Man, I'm bummed.
> I liked to fly into Reno, get some lunch/dinner, practice in class C, etc.
> No more.
>
> Adam
> N7966L
> Beech Super III
>
>

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 09:51:53 -0800, clyde woempner wrote:

>My wife and I was there last June for a three day week-end (....)
^^^^^^^
>(...)
>(..), did I mention the good looking lady"s.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

you sure had a good time ... :-)

>Clyde

#m
--
<http://www.terranova.net/content/images/goering.jpg>
<http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/01/1713819.php>
<http://www.google.com/search?q=Maher+Arar>
<http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/>