pre-IFR training/preparation?

[Jonathan Sorger]

I will be starting IFR training soon and would like to minimize the pain /
maximize my learning potential.

Is there anything that recent (or not-so-recent) IFR students wish you
had done in preparation for training? (specific books to read, home
flight simulator)

A friend has invited me to tag along in the back seat during his lessons
and I have learned a great deal following along while looking at the
approach charts... I have found it an excellent way to become familiar
with alot of the terminology.

Thanks,

[Ray]

> Is there anything that recent (or not-so-recent) IFR students wish you
> had done in preparation for training? (specific books to read, home
> flight simulator)

I'm also in the pre-IFR stage and would like to add the following question
to Jonathon's. Is there anything in particular to look for in an instrument
instructor (in addition to the criteria used when finding a private pilot
instructor)?

Thanks,
- Ray

[Jon Kraus]

Get an instructor that isn't afraid to get you into the clag... Seems
like I have been reading about some CFII's that don't want to get the
students up into the clouds... Why I don't know...

Other that that it is nice to have your 50 hours of x-country time in
before starting... Not required but it is something that you can do
ahead of time...

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
'79 Mooney 201 4443H

Ray wrote:
>>Is there anything that recent (or not-so-recent) IFR students wish you
>>had done in preparation for training? (specific books to read, home
>>flight simulator)
>
>
> I'm also in the pre-IFR stage and would like to add the following question
> to Jonathon's. Is there anything in particular to look for in an instrument
> instructor (in addition to the criteria used when finding a private pilot
> instructor)?
>
> Thanks,
> - Ray
>
>

[Denny]

Get the King's video course and watch it ALL the way through at least
three times (yes, three)... If you actually do that and work all the
problems in the book, you will be prepared for both your written and
the oral - there is a reason they stay in business decade after decade,
and that is results...
A good instructor is the next requirement, and really hard to find...
Like looking for a girlfriend, you are gonna have to keep trying until
you find the right one... Do not start out teaching yourself on a
simulator (a dunce for a student and a flaming incompetent for an
instructor is not a recipe for success) as all you will do is ingrain a
pile of really bad habits that are nearly impossible to break once
formed... Once you have an instructor have him/her set the protocol
for using the simulator...

Oh ya, and have fun...

Denny - who is looking for a break in his schedule to drag his carcass
off for the annual IFR refresher...

Ohhh, so I have an engine fire..
Lessee, where's the check list..
Hmmm, why is that red overvoltage light on..
Gee, the gyros have rolled over
And ATC says to remain clear of the bravo and expect further
instructions by 0378 Z
Golly why's that whistling sound getting louder..
And why is the heading gyro going around so fast

[[email protected]]

Jonathan Sorger wrote:
> I will be starting IFR training soon and would like to minimize the
pain /
> maximize my learning potential.
>
> Is there anything that recent (or not-so-recent) IFR students wish
you
> had done in preparation for training? (specific books to read, home
> flight simulator)

I finished my IFR rating in the minimum time. Here's some of the
things
that I think really helped:
1) I already had almost 300 hours VFR, and had been flying the same
airplane
for over a year so I was familiar with it.
2) I read a couple of IFR books thoroughly (The Art of Instrument
Flying,
Rod Machado's Instrument Flying Handbook) and took the written test
before
starting my flight training. I later picked up Robert Gardner's
Complete
Advanced Pilot book, which is very good, but I still like the Art of
Instrument
Flying the best (sorry Bob). I used the Gleim book to study for the
written - it's good for passing the test but not much else.
3) I spent 2 or 3 VFR flights practicing precision flight maneuvers - a
pattern
for these was listed in the AoIF book, including 500 fpm climbs and
descents
with and without turns, VOR tracking maneuvers etc. On your VFR
flights
practice VOR tracking, flying to IFR standards, and FLIGHT FOLLOWING to
become familiar with ATC communications.
4) I spent the maximum allowable time in a PCATD flight simulator with
instructor at the airport, and also practiced a little on Microsoft
Flight
Simulator at home - use MSFS to focus on your procedural skills more so
than
the actual flying skills, it's also helpful for partial panel and other
emergency simulations.

Good luck!
--
Allen Johnson

[Bob Moore]

Jon Kraus > wrote

> Get an instructor that isn't afraid to get you into the clag... Seems
> like I have been reading about some CFII's that don't want to get the
> students up into the clouds... Why I don't know...

I'll tell you why Jon....As a 20,000+ hour former navy and retired
airline pilot who served as an instrument instructor in both services,
and has been an FAA authorized instrument instructor for 35 years...
I'm in charge of the training session...not ATC. I try my best to
maximize my student's lesson time as opposed to following ATC's
directions to keep me clear of other traffic. By using an enroute
VOR out in the sticks completely away from an airport and under VFR, I
can accomplish 2-3 times the number of holds and approaches in a given
period than I can under IFR control. I want to be able to allow the
student learn from his mistakes without incurring the wrath of ATC and
endangering other aircraft.
In the airline industry, we learned very early on that you did not have
to set foot in a B-747 in order to learn how to fly one, the simulator
is a much better training tool. The same holds true for instrument
training...the simulator is best followed by simulated instrument in
the aircraft.

Bob Moore
ATP B-727 B-707
Flight Instructor, Airplanes/Instrument
PanAm (retired)

[Peter R.]

Bob Moore > wrote:

> I'll tell you why Jon....As a 20,000+ hour former navy and retired
> airline pilot who served as an instrument instructor in both services,
> and has been an FAA authorized instrument instructor for 35 years...
> I'm in charge of the training session...not ATC.
<snip>

Bob, with all due respect to your very impressive background (seriously), I
wanted to ask you to comment on something you didn't mention at all: How
flying in actual conditions differs from flying under a hood to a new
instrument student.

As a March '03 instrument rated pilot, I had the advantage of training in
a lot of actual instrument conditions. ATC at out class C approach
facility (Syracuse, NY) was *very* accommodating to my instructor's
requests while I practiced numerous holds, DME arcs, and published
approaches. Granted I never created a separation issue for ATC, so I
suppose my take on this might be skewed.

The point I wanted to make was that to me there was a big mental and
physiological difference between flying under the hood and flying in actual
conditions, thanks to how the "actual" clouds and precipitation tricked my
direct and peripheral vision.

Not *once* under the hood did I get spatially disoriented, most likely
because no matter how good the hood was at blocking the view, there was
always some type of peripheral clue that aided my spatial orientation.
The first few times in actual, though, I experienced a low-to-moderate case
of the leans. Those experiences and how I responded to them really helped
my confidence in actual from that point forward.

I can certainly appreciate the flexibility you as an instructor have when
you are VFR. But reading this and the IFR group over the last few years I
have seen more than a few threads where pilots who received their
instrument rating with little to no actual time immediately need to employ
a CFII to take them into the clouds. IMO this seems like a failing of
their instrument training.

From my very small corner of the world, I believe instrument students would
benefit tremendously from several hours of actual time, despite the fact
that the instructor doesn't have *as much* flexibility.

--
Peter







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[Peter R.]

Bob Moore > wrote:

> In the airline industry, we learned very early on that you did not have
> to set foot in a B-747 in order to learn how to fly one, the simulator
> is a much better training tool. The same holds true for instrument
> training...the simulator is best followed by simulated instrument in
> the aircraft.

Oh, one other comment: IMO your comparison of a 747 simulator training to
hood time is apples to oranges.

I have only been in a multi-million dollar simulator once, and I can say
that I have no problem believing you that a pilot could fly the simulator
for 100% of his/her training and transition to a real 747 with no problem.
Those simulators are incredible.

IMO, a $25 dollar hood does a mediocre job of replicating actual
conditions.

--
Peter







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[Mike Rapoport]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Get an instructor that isn't afraid to get you into the clag... Seems like
> I have been reading about some CFII's that don't want to get the students
> up into the clouds... Why I don't know...
>
> Other that that it is nice to have your 50 hours of x-country time in
> before starting... Not required but it is something that you can do ahead
> of time...
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> '79 Mooney 201 4443H
>


I am not sure that I would want to go flying with an instrument student with
only one set of instruments, certainly not on a regular basis. It makes
more sense just to train under the hood at night when there are no visual
cues.

Mike
MU-2

[Michael]

Bob Moore wrote:
> I'll tell you why Jon....As a 20,000+ hour former navy and retired
> airline pilot who served as an instrument instructor in both
services,
> and has been an FAA authorized instrument instructor for 35 years...
> I'm in charge of the training session...not ATC. I try my best to
> maximize my student's lesson time as opposed to following ATC's
> directions to keep me clear of other traffic.

Translation - operating in actual under ATC control means you simply
can't do one-size-fits-all training. You have to be flexible, think on
your feet, work with ATC (rather than insisting that you are in
charge), and figure out how to maximize training value in a constrained
environment (meaning under ATC control). That's much harder than doing
it in the unconstrained environment (VFR in the sticks), and you simply
can't fully plan it. In other words - effectively instructing in
actual is MUCH harder than doing it under the hood, even if you don't
consider the additional degree of difficulty of needing to maintain
your own scan while teaching. The whole concept of preparing a
syllabus and sticking to it rigidly (which is the military and airline
way) goes out the window. To effectively utilize actual time, you wind
up having a different syllabus for each student.

Of course this means you must also have solid experience in the system,
become pretty good at predicting what is likely to happen, and
effectively brief your student on what to expect. Instruction in IMC
requires a much longer and more thorough ground briefing so the student
is prepared for what is coming.

Also, no matter what you do, and no matter how good you are, the fact
remains that you will need more total aircraft hours training in actual
than you will if you do it all under the hood in the sticks. It won't
be 2-3 times as much (that would take a pretty rigid instructor who
can't go with the flow) but it will be more.

No matter how you slice it, if you leave instruction in actual out of
the curriculum, you can get the student to the checkride in fewer hours
while demanding less from both the instructor and the student. There's
only one problem. You're not getting an instrument rating to fly
around under the hood, are you?

Operating in actual teaches you things that you're simply not going to
learn in a simulator or under the hood. Peter has already made some
valid points in that area, and I won't repeat them. But there are
others.

Operating in actual teaches you that it's not ceiling that's really
crucial on an approach, it's visibility (which, unlike ceiling, can't
be effectively simulated). It teaches you where the pitfalls are in a
low-vis circling approach - something you will NEVER learn flying under
the hood in CAVU. It teaches you to handle ATC when it's REALLY busy -
filing in CAVU won't. It teaches you to anticipate what's coming
(those ground briefing sessions are NOT wasted time) and how to be
prepared for it. It teaches you to deal with the twin hazards usually
associated with IMC - T-storms and ice. Really the list is too long to
cover everything. There is absolutely no validity to the idea that you
can consistently do a complete and valid instrument course without
exposure to actual IMC and turn out a pilot who can consistently
self-dispatch and operate in conditions below VFR minimums with a
reasonable margin of safety.

Michael

[Michael]

> Is there anything in particular to look for in an instrument
> instructor (in addition to the criteria used when finding a private
pilot
> instructor)?

Look for someone who uses his instrument rating to actually go places
on a regular basis in IFR weather. It won't be easy, but they are out
there.

Michael

[[email protected]]

Jonathan,
I am a 'pre-IFR' student myself and had started a somewhat 'rigorous'
self-training routine since last Christmas. My current plan is to pass
the written by the end of this month while getting some official IFR
training so that I will be ready for an intensive 7 days or so East
Coast or West Coast IFR trip (http://www.dsflight.com/new-england.html
or http://www.ifrwest.com/enrollment_westcoast.html) or a similar
accelerated training program to get the rating in the spring.
Since both my husband and myself plan to get the instrument rating
this year, we have quite a 'library' of instrument training books. We
have probably every book which I found recommended at
rec.aviation.student etc. with the exception of Jeppesen book (based on
my bad impression with the Jeppesen private pilot training series and
of course its high price). Rick, my husband, started his training about
a year ago and had pretty much read all the books (he passed his
written last summer scoring something like 98). The Gleim Instrument
Pilot FAA Knowledge Test is probably the cheapest and most efficient
way to prepare for the written (I had just completed the book in two
weeks and have scored 95 to 100% on all the online practice tests at
http://www.exams4pilots.com/ and http://www.webexams.com/).
For IFR knowledge gaining purpose, Rick recommended me to use Bob
Gardner's The Complete Advanced Pilot with more in-depth information
from Trevor Thom ASA-PM3 Instrument Flying. For practical IFR
learning, Rick liked 1) Mastering Instrument Flying by Sherwood Harris
and Henry Sollman 2) Ralph Butcher's Instrument Pilot Flight Training
Manual and 3) Peter Dogan's PIC's Instrument Flight Training Manual
(listed in the order of his preference). I have read only a chapter or
two of each book but generally agree with his recommendations.
For flight simulations, we started with MS FS 2002/04 and gave
X-plane a brief try. After seeing that the Elite FS is used by a nearby
flight school, we decided to buy our own version along with an IFR
training book ($190 or so for the program and $50 for the book). I
completed the training book in about two weeks practicing an hour or so
everyday. In our experience, this is probably the cheapest and most
efficient way for IFR training on your own. We wished that we had
purchased this program earlier. It would have made Rick's earlier
official training with an instructor much more efficient. Regarding the
FS hardware, we used to use a Thrustmaster joystick but had replaced
with a CH flight yoke and found it a bit closer to 'real' flying in our
Cardinal C177B.
Rick's last two lessons with an instructor was last fall where he
had to do the entire IFR cross country trips which left him completely
exhausted at the end. The extra pressure was ATC communication in
busy airspace. Although we have some experience with ATC communications
(our home base is at a D and we have done quite a bit of cross country
trips with flight following going to or through C and B airspaces), we
decided to increase our ATC exposure by listening to NY approach 132.75
on our IFR practices (serving as safety pilot for each other) and
purchased 1) Comm 1 IFR Communications Trainer 2) Comm1 IFR Clearance
on Request and 3) Jeppesen ATC Clearance Training Audio Tape.
In summary, after spending about 5 weeks of serious pre-IFR
training (3 weeks with the Elite FS, 2 weeks with the Gleim book), I
feel that I have a pretty good overall exposure to IFR training. I am
quite confident that I would meet my goal of passing the IFR written at
the end of this month and get the rating in the spring. BTW, we did
our IFR practice yesterday with VFR tracking, NDB tracking and NDB
approach. It was the first time that I actually completed a NDB
approach. I was a bit comprehensive in having to descend so fast for
landing and had to slip quite a bit but the landing was good. I
repeated the approach on the simulator last night refining all the
steps and added some crosswinds. Next time, I will make sure to get
more simulator time before the real flying.
Hai Longworth

[Bob Gardner]

Try to find an instructor with experience in the system...flying Part 135 or
the equivalent. A whole bunch of hours accumulated while training students
does not compare with experience outside of the training environment.

Bob Gardner

"Ray" > wrote in message
...
>> Is there anything that recent (or not-so-recent) IFR students wish you
>> had done in preparation for training? (specific books to read, home
>> flight simulator)
>
> I'm also in the pre-IFR stage and would like to add the following question
> to Jonathon's. Is there anything in particular to look for in an
> instrument
> instructor (in addition to the criteria used when finding a private pilot
> instructor)?
>
> Thanks,
> - Ray
>
>

[Jon Kraus]

Bob,

I never had any problems doing multiple approaches, holds or whatever in
IMC after getting a clearance from ATC... Even pop-up clearances were
not a problem for me around here anyway... Basically they would clear
us for whatever we wanted to accomplish and then talk to them when were
were ready to move on... This of course is not in busy airspace...

I agree that the fancy full motion simulators are great for training the
Big-Iron but the Elite Sim we have to use is pretty useless unless you
program in some scenarios that you could not practice live..

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
'79 Mooney 201 4443H


Bob Moore wrote:
> Jon Kraus > wrote
>
>
>>Get an instructor that isn't afraid to get you into the clag... Seems
>>like I have been reading about some CFII's that don't want to get the
>>students up into the clouds... Why I don't know...
>
>
> I'll tell you why Jon....As a 20,000+ hour former navy and retired
> airline pilot who served as an instrument instructor in both services,
> and has been an FAA authorized instrument instructor for 35 years...
> I'm in charge of the training session...not ATC. I try my best to
> maximize my student's lesson time as opposed to following ATC's
> directions to keep me clear of other traffic. By using an enroute
> VOR out in the sticks completely away from an airport and under VFR, I
> can accomplish 2-3 times the number of holds and approaches in a given
> period than I can under IFR control. I want to be able to allow the
> student learn from his mistakes without incurring the wrath of ATC and
> endangering other aircraft.
> In the airline industry, we learned very early on that you did not have
> to set foot in a B-747 in order to learn how to fly one, the simulator
> is a much better training tool. The same holds true for instrument
> training...the simulator is best followed by simulated instrument in
> the aircraft.
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP B-727 B-707
> Flight Instructor, Airplanes/Instrument
> PanAm (retired)

[Helen Woods]

I second this! I started off with one that wouldn't fly actual in the
rental birds, and migrated to one who loved to. WHAT A DIFFERENCE! If
you can find a CFI who is willing to fly hard IFR at night with you,
you'll be getting a much better education than otherwise.

As a side note, our local FSDO does accident talks and one of the big
causes of fatal crashes they are always listing is freshly rated
instrument pilots going into actual for the first time.

As for prepping, King CD roms/DVD are good. I'd also recomend
Kershner's instrument text and the Jeppesen weather text. You'll need
to undrestand wx like the back of your hand. Hood time with a safety
pilot under flight following is a good way to start building experience
as well as hours.

Helen

[Steve.T]

*AFTER* you have done the ground school and *AFTER* you have done at
least 2 different approaches, you might try to set this all up on a
simulator to get a better feel for things. On the simulator, use the
same airports that you are used to so you can use the same approach
plates.

Next, there is an XC that you need to do for IFR. TRY TRY TRY to
schedule this in an IMC sistuation. I was in a 141 school and actually
flew that in actual (went into the clouds at 700' AGL) -- one VOR
approach, one LOC approach (that I completely screwed up) with going
missed to get radar vectors back and try again, and finally ILS with
side-step to parallel runway (Burk Lake Front - BKL).

Maked a big difference for me in flying instruments. And flying at
night under the hood is also EXCELLENT experience. Real IMC on a
moonless night is a very high workload for a single pilot. Closest I
came to that was about a year ago when there was a lunar eclipse (and
my DG decided to precess while climbing out and picking up rime).

And the thing that I wish I had been able to do was to sit at an
airport during IMC and listen and try to copy clearances. Be sure to
make the instructor explain the procedures for using RCO, FSS w/
Clearance Void, and Towered Field procedures for IFR.

Lastly, read the book that your Instrument Ground School uses. Read it
before you take the class. Then you will be able to appreciate the
class more. And if you can, go to a WINGS program on Instrument Flight
issues.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

[A Lieberman]

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 12:00:33 GMT, Jon Kraus wrote:

> Get an instructor that isn't afraid to get you into the clag... Seems
> like I have been reading about some CFII's that don't want to get the
> students up into the clouds... Why I don't know...

I HAVE TO SECOND this opinion from Jon.

One of the absolute best things that happened to me, was my first
instructor had me in IMC and had me go down to ILS minimums. This was the
same lesson where I had to execute "real" missed approaches due to the fact
the ceilings dropped below minimums at my own airport and I had to divert
to the airport with an ILS.

I did three lessons at almost 2 hours each lesson in hard IFR. It was
brutal, but having been through that, all of my solo IMC experiences were
nothing to compare to as I was well prepared due to my first instructor.

To re-iterate Peter R's post, simulated hood does nothing to prepare you
for actual conditions. There is nothing like looking around and seeing
absolutely nothing and getting bounced around in turbulence with no visual
references and having to talk to yourself OUTLOUD to trust the instruments.

Not to take away from my second instructor skills, as he taught me many
different techniques that my first instructor did not show me, which more
or less refined my cockpit management skills to be much more ahead of the
plane then I probably would have learned from my first instructor.

My first instructor was in the school of thought, that the airplane doesn't
care what the weather is outside, and to fly hard IFR or VMC on top
shouldn't make any difference to the pilot.

My second instructor was a believer that the IFR rating for a single engine
plane was to launch, get through the cloud deck and VMC above and then
descend through the cloud deck and land.

So, in a nutshell, having two different instructor was a huge benefit for
me, as they both had their own strengths, and I was determined to take full
advantage of their strengths while I was under their wings.

By the I did my first IMC solo approaches in ceilings of 1000 feet, it was
no big deal. I am currenty up to 16 hours of actual, in which I have done
about 7.4 hours post training.

I only hope you get the same quality instruction that I received from both
of my instructors.

Allen

[Jonathan Sorger]

Thanks for all of the info!

I hadn't thought of passing the written before taking the actual lessons,
but it is an interesting idea.

I'll dive into the books and read as much as I can and hit the flight
simulator a bit in the next few months.

I have only been in true IMC once, when my CFI took me up to show me
what it was like - boy was my heart racing... I think I understand the
value of training in it. We do get quite a bit of fog here in the Bay
Area, so I should be able to work it in.

Jonathan


In > Jonathan Sorger
wrote:
> I will be starting IFR training soon and would like to minimize the
> pain / maximize my learning potential.
>
> Is there anything that recent (or not-so-recent) IFR students wish you
> had done in preparation for training? (specific books to read, home
> flight simulator)
>
> A friend has invited me to tag along in the back seat during his
> lessons and I have learned a great deal following along while looking
> at the approach charts... I have found it an excellent way to become
> familiar with alot of the terminology.
>
> Thanks,
>