Sport Pilot - School Won't Offer

[Gary G]

I started my PP training about 1 1/2 years ago, but due to some unfortunate medical problems
in my family, have had to postpone it until this summer.

Now that the Sport Pilot license is available, I inquired with my school.
The manager basically said "it's useless" and couldn't really see why anyone would
want it. Later in his conversation he says, "...unless someone just wants to fly around
their airport - you can't really go anywhere..." - which is only partially true
if one gets an endorsement on ADIZ, Class B, and Cross Country.
However, I see a great opportunity in this program, and would like it as a stepping
stone to my Private.

I will note that they don't have any planes that qualify - I don't know how close a 152 is, but
I think it's a bit over the limit.

I've seen a lot of excitement generated about this license, but I am a little frustrated by the fact
that they would be so opposed to it.
I can see them not going out of their way to get a plane that qualifies - no big deal. That's a business
decision.
But a harsh opposition based on "his view" concerns me.
Maybe if he had justification on safety or other substantive issues, ok.
But such an obtuse statement makes no effort to understand the student.

Does anyone know of places in Maryland that will offer the Sport License?
Frederick?
Laurel?
Tipton?
Bay Bridge?

Thank you!

Gary

[ET]

"Gary G" > wrote in
:

> I started my PP training about 1 1/2 years ago, but due to some
> unfortunate medical problems in my family, have had to postpone it
> until this summer.
>
> Now that the Sport Pilot license is available, I inquired with my
> school. The manager basically said "it's useless" and couldn't really
> see why anyone would want it. Later in his conversation he says,
> "...unless someone just wants to fly around their airport - you can't
> really go anywhere..." - which is only partially true if one gets an
> endorsement on ADIZ, Class B, and Cross Country. However, I see a
> great opportunity in this program, and would like it as a stepping
> stone to my Private.
>
> I will note that they don't have any planes that qualify - I don't
> know how close a 152 is, but I think it's a bit over the limit.
>
> I've seen a lot of excitement generated about this license, but I am a
> little frustrated by the fact that they would be so opposed to it.
> I can see them not going out of their way to get a plane that
> qualifies - no big deal. That's a business decision.
> But a harsh opposition based on "his view" concerns me.
> Maybe if he had justification on safety or other substantive issues,
> ok. But such an obtuse statement makes no effort to understand the
> student.
>
> Does anyone know of places in Maryland that will offer the Sport
> License? Frederick?
> Laurel?
> Tipton?
> Bay Bridge?
>
> Thank you!
>
> Gary
>
>
>

He doesn't have a CLUE as to what sport pilot is! Either that, or he
simply knows he can't accomidate you with his current fleet, and therefore
must sh*t on the whole concept if he wants you as a student. He will come
around eventually though.

It may be awhile, the infrastructure for Sport Pilot is coming into place,
and will be well represented by the end of 2005. Right now, there are only
8 sport pilot examiners (only 2 of which are SEL), but there will be at
least 100 by the end of the year.

Sport pilot is for all of us who want to just fly. Yeah you can get signed
off to fly to C and B airspace etc., but you don't need to do that right
away. At the base level sport pilot is PPL minus night flight, minus VOR's
, minus towered radio work (or any radio work at all depending on equipment
in the trainer); minus hood work. That's where the 20 hrs base training
comes in. I intend to get my basic Sport Pilot lic., then take training in
flight into C and B airspace etc. later. The endorsement is added to your
logbook by the CFI only at that point. This will also make the checkride
much more straightforward, as the examiner basically just has to test you
on flying the plane! again, no hood work, no VOR's, no towered radio work,
etc.

Later, if you decide you want to get your PPL, you just go back and get
some training in the above areas (bringing total training hours up to min
40 as well), get your medical, get your checkride and go!


We will see more flight schools offering Sport Pilot as more potential
students look around for leaseback options and decide that a $70,000 brand
new Zodiac 601XL SLSA, is a better idea for leaseback than a 40 year old
152 or 172 which is very likely to cost $5K - $25K plus for every annual in
addition to higher fuel consumption etc.

Here is a link to a Maryland CC that is offering sport pilot ground school,
I bet they know exactly where you can take flight training or they would be
unlikely to offer the ground school.

http://www.carrollcc.edu/assets/publications/noncreditschedule/pdf/2005/Non
creditwinter2005extracts/occupationalpreparation&development_winter05.pdf

the above might take some cutting and pasting, as an alternative try:

http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z2491247A

Post back here and tell us what they say!

-ET

[Cecil Chapman]

At the risk of suggesting something that you already tried, I would offer
that you should check with the EAA on their website and I'm certain they
will be able to properly direct you.

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL-IA
Student - CP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[George Patterson]

Gary G wrote:
>
> I will note that they don't have any planes that qualify - I don't know how close a 152 is, but
> I think it's a bit over the limit.

That's it, right there. He'll change his tune if he ever gets a sport aircraft
on the line. You frequently find a similar opposition to the use of automotive
fuel from mechanics that have a stake in the sale of 100LL.

George Patterson
He who would distinguish what is true from what is false must have an
adequate understanding of truth and falsehood.

[Jürgen Exner]

ET wrote:
> Sport pilot is for all of us who want to just fly. Yeah you can get
> signed off to fly to C and B airspace etc., but you don't need to do
> that right away. At the base level sport pilot is PPL minus night
> flight, minus VOR's , minus towered radio work (or any radio work at
> all depending on equipment in the trainer); minus hood work.

Minus international flying (not recognized outside the USA), minus family
flying (limited to 2 seats), minus long-distance flying (even with the
x-country you will have to land frequently to refuel because of limited
airplane size), ...

I am sure I missed quite a few additional limitations

jue

[W P Dixon]

"Jürgen Exner" > wrote in message
news:2p5Pd.1701$uc.393@trnddc01...
> ET wrote:
>> Sport pilot is for all of us who want to just fly. Yeah you can get
>> signed off to fly to C and B airspace etc., but you don't need to do
>> that right away. At the base level sport pilot is PPL minus night
>> flight, minus VOR's , minus towered radio work (or any radio work at
>> all depending on equipment in the trainer); minus hood work.
>
> Minus international flying (not recognized outside the USA), minus family
> flying (limited to 2 seats), minus long-distance flying (even with the
> x-country you will have to land frequently to refuel because of limited
> airplane size), ...
>
> I am sure I missed quite a few additional limitations
>
> jue
>So what your saying Jue is it just basically means someone who just wants
>to fly for the fun of it? Well that is the whole point! As for long
>distance flying , yes I can do that and yes I may have to stop more for
>fuel....I don't mind at all IT'S FUN!!!! ;) Only having one passenger is
>fine by me...I get to leave the kids at the Grandparents house and take
>little romantic getaways with my wife! Hmm, STILL FUN! ;) And I can always
>take the kids up around the patch one at a time to get them interested in
>aviation. EVEN MORE FUN! :)
As for going to another country, I have no need nor any desire to go
overseas. Been there done that and much prefer to stay right here in the
good ole USA. I also have no need or desire to fly a 737 or in IFR..just
want a simple plane to have fun in. Amazing how it all points back to just
having FUN! ;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

[ET]

"Jürgen Exner" > wrote in
news:2p5Pd.1701$uc.393@trnddc01:

> ET wrote:
>> Sport pilot is for all of us who want to just fly. Yeah you can get
>> signed off to fly to C and B airspace etc., but you don't need to do
>> that right away. At the base level sport pilot is PPL minus night
>> flight, minus VOR's , minus towered radio work (or any radio work at
>> all depending on equipment in the trainer); minus hood work.
>
> Minus international flying (not recognized outside the USA), minus
> family flying (limited to 2 seats), minus long-distance flying (even
> with the x-country you will have to land frequently to refuel because
> of limited airplane size), ...
>
> I am sure I missed quite a few additional limitations
>
> jue
>
>
>

Well, I was giving examples of the training that would not be required,
but I'll respond to your post anyway:

Sport Pilot range:

As an example, a Zodiac 601XL will outlast your bladder and the desire
to stretch your legs. The Zodiac will fly almost 5 hrs and well over 600
miles without needing to stop for fuel, is that not cross country
enough????? So your range comment is pure poppycock.....

International Flying:

Canada is already in the process of officially recognising sport pilots,
in Mexico you will simply have to get permission ahead of time, the same
way anyone flying an Experimental has to get permission ahead of time.
Yes, more complicated than just PPL

Family Flying:

Yes Sport Pilot is limited to two seats, guess you got me there <grin>.
On the up side, for the price of a brand new 172 you can by 2 brand new
sport planes AND AN SUV!!!! and mom can fly one kid, while dad flys the
other, all while still burning 3gph less total fuel as the 172 <BIG
GRIN!>

Not only that, but as an aging baby boomer with money to spend on
hobbies, your much more likely to dump 70grand on an aircraft that you
have confidence your next visit to the FAA health police will not
disqualify you from flying!!!

-ET

[George Patterson]

"Jürgen Exner" wrote:
>
> even with the
> x-country you will have to land frequently to refuel because of limited
> airplane size

Not really. They carry less fuel, but they burn less per hour. A 65 hp Chief
with its 15 gallons will stay in the air nearly as long as a 180hp Maule with
its 43 gallons. Cross-country flights will be a problem because a typical sport
aircraft is slower, not because of fuel capacity problems.

George Patterson
He who would distinguish what is true from what is false must have an
adequate understanding of truth and falsehood.

[Robert M. Gary]

We should be careful how we say "Sport Aircraft". There are "Sport
Aircraft" which I believe refers to planes who's airworthiness ticket
says "Sport Aircraft category" and then there are qualified "Normal"
category aircraft that meet the requirements to be flown by "Sport
Pilots".

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

As a CFI, if someone walked up to me and asked for Sport Pilot
training, I might turn them down. We don't really have any reference
material for such a program. I guess we now have a PTS (check ride
standards) but there are no sylibus, etc for us to follow. Since none
of us have done one before we'd be winging it as to what to teach for
each lesson. We need enough CFIs to take students through the process
and then show the rest of us how it worked. Also, at this point, there
are no examiners in my area that are approved to give sport pilot
checkrides (or at least know how to do them).

Also, be aware. If you have a medical condition that disqualified you
for a medical certificate you CANNOT get a sport pilot certificate as a
way around the medical condition (my understanding).

-Robert

[W P Dixon]

Hi Robert,
Go to the FAA website, you will find the written test questions there as
well as the practical test standards. Surely a CFI can make a good sylibus
from the info gathered there. Enough to get you going anyway. Gleim already
has there books for sport pilots published, King too I would imagine. If
they got the info I am sure any CFI can.
And yes there will be Light Sport Category and Experimental Light Sport
as well as Certificated planes that already can be flown by "Sport Pilots" .
A Lot of models of Taylorcrafts, Aeroncas, Luscombes, Ercoupes, and even a
few Porterfields and Interstates!
It will in fact take time for all of this to take hold. Partly due to
the fact that everything the government touches takes forever! And probably
alot of CFI's and flight schools will take there time at "getting with the
program". I can't tell you the different CFI's I talked to in this area that
had no clue as to what the "Sport Pilot" even was. Some do not even care to
know! I would hope any CFI would be like a MD , and get all the latest info
..
Just think Robert, it may be time to get that taildragger time current!
;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> As a CFI, if someone walked up to me and asked for Sport Pilot
> training, I might turn them down. We don't really have any reference
> material for such a program. I guess we now have a PTS (check ride
> standards) but there are no sylibus, etc for us to follow. Since none
> of us have done one before we'd be winging it as to what to teach for
> each lesson. We need enough CFIs to take students through the process
> and then show the rest of us how it worked. Also, at this point, there
> are no examiners in my area that are approved to give sport pilot
> checkrides (or at least know how to do them).
>
> Also, be aware. If you have a medical condition that disqualified you
> for a medical certificate you CANNOT get a sport pilot certificate as a
> way around the medical condition (my understanding).
>
> -Robert
>

[Gary G]

That's fair enough - you have a solid reason for making that decision.
I can understand that clearly.
You have provided a real business reason for that.

But this other school wasn't saying that.
Especially the manager came off as arrogant and caring less about my interests
than his personal opinion.
I guess, in a way, his attitude makes me less likely to go with them - his reactionary
statement as opposed to solid reasoning. Thus, is he likely to do that in training decisions?

It is completely fair to say you're not prepares, don't have the plane, don't know the whole game yet, etc.
You're answer is a good one.
And I also understand that not enough time has passed to develop a program and get the full rundown.

His take was that he's not interested, so he won't even learn or determine conditions under which
it might work or be beneficial. As a business person, I reject that type of reasoning to core of my being.
It seems to me like the manager of a flight school should have the ability to take "business" into
account - since he's running a business - and if he can't make a business case, great.

It shook my confidence in him . . .

Just a thought.



"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message oups.com...
> As a CFI, if someone walked up to me and asked for Sport Pilot
> training, I might turn them down. We don't really have any reference
> material for such a program. I guess we now have a PTS (check ride
> standards) but there are no sylibus, etc for us to follow. Since none
> of us have done one before we'd be winging it as to what to teach for
> each lesson. We need enough CFIs to take students through the process
> and then show the rest of us how it worked. Also, at this point, there
> are no examiners in my area that are approved to give sport pilot
> checkrides (or at least know how to do them).
>
> Also, be aware. If you have a medical condition that disqualified you
> for a medical certificate you CANNOT get a sport pilot certificate as a
> way around the medical condition (my understanding).
>
> -Robert
>

[[email protected]]

Did you consider the recreational certificate? That's smth that you can
do in a 152,
and later upgrade it to a PP-ASEL.

Sport or recreational, it's probably more expensive to do first one of
them, and then upgrade to a PP-ASEL than just do the PP-ASEL

OTOH, did you consider gliders? They will make you a great pilot at a
faster pace and you'll get a PP-G which will later be possible to
upgrade to a PP-ASEL. Look at the r.a.soaring group and ssa.org for a
lead close to your home. You'll definitely become a much more
proficient power pilot if you start in a glider.

Good luck, and may your folks feel well!

[ET]

wrote in
oups.com:

> Did you consider the recreational certificate? That's smth that you
> can do in a 152,
> and later upgrade it to a PP-ASEL.
>
> Sport or recreational, it's probably more expensive to do first one of
> them, and then upgrade to a PP-ASEL than just do the PP-ASEL
>
> OTOH, did you consider gliders? They will make you a great pilot at a
> faster pace and you'll get a PP-G which will later be possible to
> upgrade to a PP-ASEL. Look at the r.a.soaring group and ssa.org for a
> lead close to your home. You'll definitely become a much more
> proficient power pilot if you start in a glider.
>
> Good luck, and may your folks feel well!
>

I disagree.

You get your Sport Pilot. Fly around for 100 or 200 hours, go back and
get your night work, hood work, and towered radio work training, except
that takes VERY little time because the airplane is now almost second
nature to fly. Then choose to get your PPL.

Except you may just decide SP is all you needed to begin with.


-ET

[Neil Gould]

Recently, George Patterson > posted:

> Gary G wrote:
>>
>> I will note that they don't have any planes that qualify - I don't
>> know how close a 152 is, but I think it's a bit over the limit.
>
> That's it, right there. He'll change his tune if he ever gets a sport
> aircraft on the line. You frequently find a similar opposition to the
> use of automotive fuel from mechanics that have a stake in the sale
> of 100LL.
>
There is another possibility. The flying club that I belong to is also a
flight school. They won't instruct for Sport Pilot for insurance reasons.
Their position is that people with that level of training are likely to be
higher risks, causing more incidents (if not accidents), and thus be a
vulnerability to the club.

Regards,

Neil

[Geoffrey Barnes]

> There is another possibility. The flying club that I belong to is also a
> flight school. They won't instruct for Sport Pilot for insurance reasons.
> Their position is that people with that level of training are likely to be
> higher risks, causing more incidents (if not accidents), and thus be a
> vulnerability to the club.

That's a good point. Another one concerns radio comms and transponders.
Since my club operates out of a 24-hour Class D airport (AGC) which sits
well within the 30-nm mode C veil for Pittsburgh's Class B, all aircraft
have to be properly equipped. And the sport pilot wannabes would have to be
trained to do radio work. At one point, we had one guy who owned a
LSA-qualified taildragger look into setting up a leasback with us in the
hope of attracting sport pilot students. But he would have had to add an
encoding transponder and probably some basic radio equipement to make it
work at our airport, and he decided not to bother.

[Slick]

I started in a glider and I would recommend everyone to do the same. Because
of my glider training I was able to do my PP-SEL in the bare minimums, 41
hours, I went over by an hour b/c I went for a solo flight to my prospective
college. I would have been under 40 hours if it weren't for the required 20
hours instruction. My last 6 hours of instruction were spent getting checked
out in a 172 and giving my instructor a tour of the tow I live in and the
town I work in. Learning how to "feel" an airplane is easy in a glider.
There's barely any radio, no tower, no VOR, but a whole lot of coordinated
flying, something that isn't as noticeable in a Powered plane. When I sat
down and calculated it, it could have been cheaper for me to do my PP-G then
continue to my PP-SEL than to go the other way around, if I had known I was
going to get my PP-SEL. At the time I thought I was just going to fly
gliders for the rest of my life. In any case, doing the required flights for
a glider, then doing the minimum of 40 hours for power was cheaper than
doing 65 hours of power then the 10 flights in a glider.
"ET" > wrote in message
...
> wrote in
> oups.com:
>
> > Did you consider the recreational certificate? That's smth that you
> > can do in a 152,
> > and later upgrade it to a PP-ASEL.
> >
> > Sport or recreational, it's probably more expensive to do first one of
> > them, and then upgrade to a PP-ASEL than just do the PP-ASEL
> >
> > OTOH, did you consider gliders? They will make you a great pilot at a
> > faster pace and you'll get a PP-G which will later be possible to
> > upgrade to a PP-ASEL. Look at the r.a.soaring group and ssa.org for a
> > lead close to your home. You'll definitely become a much more
> > proficient power pilot if you start in a glider.
> >
> > Good luck, and may your folks feel well!
> >
>
> I disagree.
>
> You get your Sport Pilot. Fly around for 100 or 200 hours, go back and
> get your night work, hood work, and towered radio work training, except
> that takes VERY little time because the airplane is now almost second
> nature to fly. Then choose to get your PPL.
>
> Except you may just decide SP is all you needed to begin with.
>
>
> -ET



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[[email protected]]

"Slick" > wrote:
> I started in a glider and I would recommend everyone to do the same. Because
> of my glider training I was able to do my PP-SEL in the bare minimums, 41
> hours, I went over by an hour b/c I went for a solo flight to my prospective
> college. I would have been under 40 hours if it weren't for the required 20
> hours instruction. My last 6 hours of instruction were spent getting checked
> out in a 172 and giving my instructor a tour of the tow I live in and the
> town I work in. Learning how to "feel" an airplane is easy in a glider.
> There's barely any radio, no tower, no VOR, but a whole lot of coordinated
> flying, something that isn't as noticeable in a Powered plane. When I sat
> down and calculated it, it could have been cheaper for me to do my PP-G then
> continue to my PP-SEL than to go the other way around, if I had known I was
> going to get my PP-SEL. At the time I thought I was just going to fly
> gliders for the rest of my life. In any case, doing the required flights for
> a glider, then doing the minimum of 40 hours for power was cheaper than
> doing 65 hours of power then the 10 flights in a glider.

I did the same thing and agree that it was a benefit to have learned *to
fly* in the glider first for some of the reasons listed above,
particularly your mention of the emphasis on coordinated flight. I
wouldn't say, however, that it's "less noticeable in a powered plane,"
rather that the amount of control input necessary for coordinated flight
in a Cessna, for example, is much less than in a glider.

Like everything, each individual is different. IMO, going to powered
aircraft from glider wasn't necessarily all THAT easy, and getting a
glider add-on (to PP SEL) takes a bit more than only "10 flights in a
glider" that you implied above. The FAA requires 3 hours dual + 10 solo
flights + checkride for Private Glider add-on (no additional written).
Not all add-ons finish in those minimum times/flights. FAA requires 10
hrs dual + 7 hrs solo + written exam and checkride for Private Glider
(not add-on). Not everyone finishes the rating in those minimums,
either, and depending on what time of year it is, where you do it, and
what glider you're flying, that *can* get expensive, too.

Learning the radio and associated towered/non-towered airport procedures
when you aren't used to doing ANY of that while you fly (our gliderport
and trainers do not use radios at all, nor do we travel to other
airports during Private Glider training) takes some getting used to and
practice. If you didn't do x-c glider, using the sectional while you fly
may also be a new experience as is some of the flight planning,
navigating to *go* somewhere, transitioning various airspaces, and
learning who to call and when (Flight Service, Flight Following, Center,
Approach, etc.). Depending on what aircraft you do the SEL in, it can be
quite different to go from the glider's tandem seating and stick to
sitting on the left using a yoke -- lining yourself up with the
centerline looks different when you're sitting on the left than when
you're sitting in the middle. Approaches are different ... my tendency
to make steeper approaches with minimum power and my SEL instructors'
(with no previous glider) tendency to make lower approaches with more
power drove each other a bit crazy, and I remember my glider
instructor(s) saying that PP SELs doing add-ons have the same reverse
tendency when making glider approaches. Doing a go-around is different!!
Coming into the pattern from every direction, depending on tower
instructions, was new and different as was learning how to estimate
distances when making calls to the tower and setting up left or right
base only vs. full pattern.

No additional written exam is required when going from SEL to Glider,
but another written exam *is* required going from Glider to SEL. Much of
the material is the same; the section on Systems is new.

In keeping with the topic, PP Glider doesn't require a medical.
Regardless of whether it is beneficial or "cheaper" to do glider before
or after SEL, glider does enhance one's understanding, and several SEL
pilots doing glider add-on have commented that the glider training
sharpened their SEL skills and understanding.

[Cub Driver]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:32:00 -0500, "Gary G"
> wrote:

>Now that the Sport Pilot license is available, I inquired with my school.
>The manager basically said "it's useless" and couldn't really see why anyone would
>want it. Later in his conversation he says, "...unless someone just wants to fly around
>their airport - you can't really go anywhere..." - which is only partially true
>if one gets an endorsement on ADIZ, Class B, and Cross Country.
>However, I see a great opportunity in this program, and would like it as a stepping
>stone to my Private.

I got the same reaction when I insisted on getting a recreational cert
a few years ago. I still think I did the right thing--especially now
that sport pilot has come in and the rules have extended my privileges
to controlled airspace!

With a sport pilot cert you can fly across the United States. That's
someplace! Sheez.

Your FBO guy is just bad-mouthing a certificate that he doens't have
the training or the equipment to offer you. If you go to
www.pipercubforum.com/friendly.htm you will see some airfields that
offer instruction in Piper Cubs. I'll bet that most of them have
already twigged to sport pilot training, though it's true that
instructors may be hard to qualify so early in the game.

Good luck!





-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

>>Also, be aware. If you have a medical condition that disqualified you
>>for a medical certificate you CANNOT get a sport pilot certificate as a
>>way around the medical condition (my understanding).
>
>Your understanding is wrong. If you were actually
>previously turned down for a medical, then you'd be out of
>luck, but not being able to pass a medical is not
>disqualifying.

Strictly speaking, though, he was correct. Most of the older guys who
are interested in driver's license medicals are concerned about their
ability to pass the physical next time out, because of blood pressure,
vision, or similar concerns. They are willing to certify themselves
but afraid the flight surgeon might not agree.

The FAA would obviously agree with the flight surgeon but is willing
to go along with this variant of the Don't Ask / Don't Tell game.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:26:30 -0500, "W P Dixon"
> wrote:

> It will in fact take time for all of this to take hold. Partly due to
>the fact that everything the government touches takes forever! And probably
>alot of CFI's and flight schools will take there time at "getting with the
>program". I can't tell you the different CFI's I talked to in this area that
>had no clue as to what the "Sport Pilot" even was. Some do not even care to
>know! I would hope any CFI would be like a MD , and get all the latest info

You're quite right, but a CFI with a will can cut through the garbage
and get something done.

Under sport pilot rules, recreational pilots were grandfathered
(grandsonned?) under the new ATC training procedures. The new rules
went into effect on September 1. On September 6 I had my endorsement
to fly in B, C, & D airspace, thanks to my CFI/friend and to AOPA.



-- all the best, Dan Ford

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[Cub Driver]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:23:47 GMT, ET > wrote:

>You get your Sport Pilot. Fly around for 100 or 200 hours, go back and
>get your night work, hood work, and towered radio work training, except
>that takes VERY little time because the airplane is now almost second
>nature to fly. Then choose to get your PPL.

There's also the factor that it's wise and it's fun to take additional
training. After 100 hours the local airports will all seem pretty
familiar, and you'll want a new challenge.

For me, it was spin training and bush pilot school. Last year it was
Class D airports, and I still haven't done any IFR training. Not
everybody wants to do the training in the same order.



-- all the best, Dan Ford

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[Cub Driver]

>minus long-distance flying (even with the
>x-country you will have to land frequently to refuel because of limited
>airplane size), ...

Oh, God, that would be awful! You mean we can't fly coast to coast at
35,000 feet without stopping somewhere?



-- all the best, Dan Ford

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[Helen Woods]

Sounds like he has the sport pilot lisence confused with the
recreational lisence. Common mistake.

Sport Pilot is just now barely beginning to catch on in the mainstream
GA comunity. It's going to be quite a while before most schools offer
it in large part due to the lack of available planes that fit the
catagory. That is doubly so in the DC ADIZ as most of the planes now
available that fit the catagory are old 1940's trainers that don't have
an elctrical system required for ADIZ ops.

If you want to be able earn a Sport Pilot ticket at your local airport
in the ADIZ probably yuour best best is to look into buying an early
model Aercoup (later models don't qualify) and find a CFI who will work
with you. Early Aercouops fit the catagory, can suport a mode c
transponder, and are tricycle gear so finding a CFI won't be too hard.
They are also reasonably priced to buy and insure. They were originaly
built in MD so there are a lot around here as well as folks who can help
you find parts and maintain them.

Good luck.

Helen

[Helen Woods]

PS. You can also burn auto fuel in that Aercoup and bring your
operating costs down to a fraction of anything you thought about reenting...

[[email protected]]

Gary,

See http://www.sportpilot.org/, it's an EAA website. There's plenty of
information there that'll counter any mis-information you may be
hearing.

Also, it's not in MD, but see Valley Aviation in Winchester, VA, not
far from MD. They've got an Aeronca that they're using for SP
training. And, they're outside the ADIZ in the Shendendoah valley.

Some inside-ADIZ instructors I've talked to would be interesting in
teaching SP, but won't do it there since the complication factor with
Class Bravo and the ADIZ is too high in their view.

-Malcolm Teas

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"Jürgen Exner" > wrote in message
news:2p5Pd.1701$uc.393@trnddc01...
> ET wrote:
> > Sport pilot is for all of us who want to just fly. Yeah you can get
>
> Minus international flying (not recognized outside the USA), minus family
> flying (limited to 2 seats), minus long-distance flying (even with the
> x-country you will have to land frequently to refuel because of limited
> airplane size), ...

If I had a sawbuck for every 172 that's rarely flown more than 2-3 hours
with no more than 2 seats filled and never leaving CONUS, I'd have enough
money to buy a new 172 or two.

-cwk.

[mike regish]

Sounds like he has it confused with the recreational certificate.

mike regish

"Gary G" > wrote in message
...
>I started my PP training about 1 1/2 years ago, but due to some unfortunate
>medical problems
> in my family, have had to postpone it until this summer.
>
> Now that the Sport Pilot license is available, I inquired with my school.
> The manager basically said "it's useless" and couldn't really see why
> anyone would
> want it. Later in his conversation he says, "...unless someone just wants
> to fly around
> their airport - you can't really go anywhere..." - which is only partially
> true
> if one gets an endorsement on ADIZ, Class B, and Cross Country.
> However, I see a great opportunity in this program, and would like it as a
> stepping
> stone to my Private.

[[email protected]]

Dear Robert - this is my first time in this newsgroup and your comment
regarding the lack of available training on the Sport Pilot rating
caught my attention. Being a pilot who hasn't flown in 6 years and who
is not up to speed regaring this issue, do you see a need for someone
to develop a training program for the Sport Pilot. Thanks so much for
your reply. Larry Bass, Castle Rock, CO email:

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> As a CFI, if someone walked up to me and asked for Sport Pilot
> training, I might turn them down. We don't really have any reference
> material for such a program. I guess we now have a PTS (check ride
> standards) but there are no sylibus, etc for us to follow. Since none
> of us have done one before we'd be winging it as to what to teach for
> each lesson. We need enough CFIs to take students through the process
> and then show the rest of us how it worked. Also, at this point,
there
> are no examiners in my area that are approved to give sport pilot
> checkrides (or at least know how to do them).
>
> Also, be aware. If you have a medical condition that disqualified you
> for a medical certificate you CANNOT get a sport pilot certificate as
a
> way around the medical condition (my understanding).
>
> -Robert

[BTIZ]

"Jürgen Exner" > wrote in message
news:2p5Pd.1701$uc.393@trnddc01...
> ET wrote:
>> Sport pilot is for all of us who want to just fly. Yeah you can get
>> signed off to fly to C and B airspace etc., but you don't need to do
>> that right away. At the base level sport pilot is PPL minus night
>> flight, minus VOR's , minus towered radio work (or any radio work at
>> all depending on equipment in the trainer); minus hood work.
>
> Minus international flying (not recognized outside the USA), minus family
> flying (limited to 2 seats), minus long-distance flying (even with the
> x-country you will have to land frequently to refuel because of limited
> airplane size), ...
>
> I am sure I missed quite a few additional limitations
>
> jue

Limited cross country.. based on where you are signed off to fly.. and
limited distance from "home" airport.. not a fuel thing..

also limited altitude to below 10K MSL, because the SPL does not get O2
deprivation training

BT

[Morgans]

"BTIZ" > wrote

> Limited cross country.. based on where you are signed off to fly.. and
> limited distance from "home" airport.. not a fuel thing..
>
> BT
>
More uninformed BS
--
Jim in NC

[Cub Driver]

>
>Limited cross country.. based on where you are signed off to fly.. and
>limited distance from "home" airport.. not a fuel thing..

Not so. I could tomorrow downgrade my recreational certificate to a
sport pilot license and fly from New Hampshire to California.

There is nothing in the sport pilot cert that limits location or
distance. Likely you are thinking about the bare-bones recreational
certificate, which can be lifted with a two-hour XC flight and an
hour's ground school on controlled airspace (and the knowledge, of
course).

Sport pilot rules are actually more liberal than recreational rules,
and the latter have been upgraded to suit the former. That's why I can
now land at a towered airport with a specific signoff for it.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

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[Cub Driver]

On 12 Feb 2005 18:14:34 -0800, wrote:

>Dear Robert - this is my first time in this newsgroup and your comment
>regarding the lack of available training on the Sport Pilot rating
>caught my attention. Being a pilot who hasn't flown in 6 years and who
>is not up to speed regaring this issue, do you see a need for someone
>to develop a training program for the Sport Pilot.

I'm not Robert, but I do have an opinion :)

Sure, it would be nice if there was a Sport Pilot Academy, and I'll
bet that some taildragger entrepreneur is working on it right now. But
what is really needed is for CFIs on the remaining taildragger fields
to get interested, do the spadework, and offer the training. My home
field does all its primary training in J-3 Cubs and is planning to
become a Taylorcraft dealership, so is ideally situated to do just
that.

Stilll, I suspect that most Sport Pilots this year and next will be
moving sideways or down. That is, they're experienced private or
recreational pilots who want to fly on a driver's license medical, or
they're experienced ultralight pilots who want to fly a really truly
airplane.

Whether this thing flies or not depends in large part on the insurance
companies. I wouldn't fly with a million-dollar liability policy, and
if I can't buy one at a reasonable price I'll stay where I am:
recreational pilot with sport pilot privileges.



-- all the best, Dan Ford

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[Cub Driver]

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 06:39:29 -0500, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>Sport pilot rules are actually more liberal than recreational rules,
>and the latter have been upgraded to suit the former. That's why I can
>now land at a towered airport with a specific signoff for it.

that should be WITHOUT a signoff :)

Sorry! Never let your fingers do the talking.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

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[BTIZ]

Ok.. I was thinking there was a distance limit... I just re-read 61.315..
just try getting to California and stay below 10,000MSL, you'll have to go
the long way around.. through NM and AZ... and stay out of Class B, C, and
D... and don't fly at night..

you do need a sign off for those classes.. 61.325

yes.. the Recreational pilot can go more than 50nm from home with a signoff
that he has received additional training..

BT

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> >
>>Limited cross country.. based on where you are signed off to fly.. and
>>limited distance from "home" airport.. not a fuel thing..
>
> Not so. I could tomorrow downgrade my recreational certificate to a
> sport pilot license and fly from New Hampshire to California.
>
> There is nothing in the sport pilot cert that limits location or
> distance. Likely you are thinking about the bare-bones recreational
> certificate, which can be lifted with a two-hour XC flight and an
> hour's ground school on controlled airspace (and the knowledge, of
> course).
>
> Sport pilot rules are actually more liberal than recreational rules,
> and the latter have been upgraded to suit the former. That's why I can
> now land at a towered airport with a specific signoff for it.
>
>
> -- all the best, Dan Ford
>
> email (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
> the blog: www.danford.net

[BTIZ]

What LSA qualifed aircraft was that? J-3?
A J-3 does not need the transponder.. but he would need a hand held radio
for the tower..
or coordinate the use of light gun signals.. and for a training aircraft..
the tower would get a little tired of that

BT

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>> There is another possibility. The flying club that I belong to is also a
>> flight school. They won't instruct for Sport Pilot for insurance reasons.
>> Their position is that people with that level of training are likely to
>> be
>> higher risks, causing more incidents (if not accidents), and thus be a
>> vulnerability to the club.
>
> That's a good point. Another one concerns radio comms and transponders.
> Since my club operates out of a 24-hour Class D airport (AGC) which sits
> well within the 30-nm mode C veil for Pittsburgh's Class B, all aircraft
> have to be properly equipped. And the sport pilot wannabes would have to
> be
> trained to do radio work. At one point, we had one guy who owned a
> LSA-qualified taildragger look into setting up a leasback with us in the
> hope of attracting sport pilot students. But he would have had to add an
> encoding transponder and probably some basic radio equipement to make it
> work at our airport, and he decided not to bother.
>
>

[Cub Driver]

>just try getting to California and stay below 10,000MSL, you'll have to go
>the long way around.. through NM and AZ... and stay out of Class B, C, and
>D... and don't fly at night..

No, I can fly in B-C-D airspace, thanks to Sport Pilot rules. The
other points are correct but of no importance to me. I don't
particularly like to drive at night, let alone fly, and the Cub is not
very able above 10,000 ft.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

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[ET]

Cub Driver > wrote in
:

>
>>just try getting to California and stay below 10,000MSL, you'll have
>>to go the long way around.. through NM and AZ... and stay out of Class
>>B, C, and D... and don't fly at night..
>
> No, I can fly in B-C-D airspace, thanks to Sport Pilot rules. The
> other points are correct but of no importance to me. I don't
> particularly like to drive at night, let alone fly, and the Cub is not
> very able above 10,000 ft.
>
>
> -- all the best, Dan Ford
>
> email (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
> the blog: www.danford.net

To be more precise, any sport pilot can fly in B,C,D, airspace with a sign-
off (and proper equipment, of course) IMHO it's better to get that signoff
AFTER getting your license, should make the checkride more focused on the
fundementals.

ET

[Cub Driver]

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:04:27 GMT, ET > wrote:

>To be more precise, any sport pilot can fly in B,C,D, airspace with a sign-
>off (and proper equipment, of course) IMHO it's better to get that signoff
>AFTER getting your license, should make the checkride more focused on the
>fundementals.

I agree, and that's one reason (there were others) why I went for a
recreational pilot certificate. I knew I could patch it up later--or,
in the case of controlled airspace, wrongly thought I could. I was
delighted when the Sport Pilot thing came along and bailed me out.

As posted earlier, I had my B,C,D airspace endorsement within a week
of the Sport Pilot rules going into effect last September. (Thanks in
large part to my own CFI/friend, the FAA revised rec pilot privileges
to match those extended to Sport Pilots.)

Of course, if a Sport Pilot (or recreational pilot) wannabe is doing
his training at a towered airfield, he will want the airspace
endorsement in the course of training.



-- all the best, Dan Ford

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