LiFePO4 Batteries

[vontresc]

So I am in the market for a new battery for my Libelle. I was thinking it might be time to upgrade to a LiFePO4 battery.

Any recommendations/reviews from the community? I've seen people using the K2 and Stark Power batteries. Any preference between the two?

Thanks

Peter

[Tony[_5_]]

On Monday, April 28, 2014 9:55:16 AM UTC-5, vontresc wrote:
> So I am in the market for a new battery for my Libelle. I was thinking it might be time to upgrade to a LiFePO4 battery.
>
>
>
> Any recommendations/reviews from the community? I've seen people using the K2 and Stark Power batteries. Any preference between the two?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Peter

Hey Pete, I bought the battery and charger that Knauff sells. Has worked very well for my 3 long flights in the Cirrus this season. Still lots of Volts left even after 6.5 hrs of radio, vario, and transponder use. Lightweight too!

[Andrew[_14_]]

I recently got the Starkpower 12V 9Ah battery from Knauff. I've put it through one test charge/discharge cycle so far. I found...

1. It took about 10Ah when I charged it from 9V resting to full voltage (14.4V while charging for a 4 cell LiFeSO4). I imagine the advertised 9Ah rating accounts for aging after many load cycles.

2. It supplies 13.0V to 13.2V for a very long time under a 0.5A load. I'd like to see how it does under a 2A to 4A load.

3. The built-in Battery Management System (BMS) does terminate any charging attempt past 14.6V

4. The BMS does not terminate discharging at 10.5V as Starkpower's website advertises. I only brought the pack down to 9V, but other sources indicate the BMS terminates discharge at 8.2V.

On Monday, April 28, 2014 10:55:16 AM UTC-4, vontresc wrote:
> So I am in the market for a new battery for my Libelle. I was thinking it might be time to upgrade to a LiFePO4 battery.
>
>
>
> Any recommendations/reviews from the community? I've seen people using the K2 and Stark Power batteries. Any preference between the two?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Peter

[MQ]

I am happy with my pair of Tenergy 12.8VDC 10Ah LiFePO4 batteries and have used over a dozen larger 12.8VDC LiFePO4 battery packs from batteryspace for other projects with good results too. I called Tenergy in California and these Tenergies do have the under and over voltage protection built in. If you shop around, you can get them on special with chargers included but a constant voltage power supply works fine too.

The weight is nice, the charge cycles are awesome, how long it holds its charge is really awesome and the steady output makes a big difference for radios and such. They dislike freezing temperatures more than some other options if that is an issue.

You can use your trickle charger (as long as it doesn't have an auto desulfate mode) but it is not the best idea for reasons listed and explained on here and all over the internet. Also, these are LiFePO4's so you can blast them to a charge in no time compared to a lead acid.

I wire them to the glider with inline fuses and the same connectors that I have on my chargers for convenience. Then I cover the terminals with hot glue and make handles with packing tape as my glider is a very tight fit for two 10Ah batteries. You can pull them out by the wiring (not recommended) or the slim tape handles (recommended) when needed.

LiFePO4's are starting to get very developed and produced by some bigger manufacturers so it is pretty hard to go wrong as long as they fit and meet your power needs. There are some good discussions and links on doing a power budget for your glider around too.

[MQ]

On Monday, April 28, 2014 11:12:01 AM UTC-6, MQ wrote:
> I am happy with my pair of Tenergy 12.8VDC 10Ah LiFePO4 batteries and have used over a dozen larger 12.8VDC LiFePO4 battery packs from batteryspace for other projects with good results too. I called Tenergy in California and these Tenergies do have the under and over voltage protection built in. If you shop around, you can get them on special with chargers included but a constant voltage power supply works fine too.
>
>
>
> The weight is nice, the charge cycles are awesome, how long it holds its charge is really awesome and the steady output makes a big difference for radios and such. They dislike freezing temperatures more than some other options if that is an issue.
>
>
>
> You can use your trickle charger (as long as it doesn't have an auto desulfate mode) but it is not the best idea for reasons listed and explained on here and all over the internet. Also, these are LiFePO4's so you can blast them to a charge in no time compared to a lead acid.
>
>
>
> I wire them to the glider with inline fuses and the same connectors that I have on my chargers for convenience. Then I cover the terminals with hot glue and make handles with packing tape as my glider is a very tight fit for two 10Ah batteries. You can pull them out by the wiring (not recommended) or the slim tape handles (recommended) when needed.
>
>
>
> LiFePO4's are starting to get very developed and produced by some bigger manufacturers so it is pretty hard to go wrong as long as they fit and meet your power needs (We used to set the under and over voltage with solar charging units and analog circuits and laugh at the construction of some of the cells). There are some good discussions and links on doing a power budget for your glider around too.

[[email protected][_2_]]

We have delivered many of these batteries with no complaints. They hold a charge extremely well. Our Duo has all the fancy electronics including transponder, etc, and we tested using only one battery for more than 6 hours, still showing full voltage. We actually have two batteries installed, so it is doubtful we could ever drain the very light weight batteries even on long ridge flights.

The required charger recharges in about two hours.

Tom Knauff
www.eglider.org

[[email protected]]

I have been using a K2 9.6AmpHr battery for three years in my LS-8. Compared to lead it is amazing. Very light. Holds 13 volts even in cold soak conditions like flying for hours at 17,000 feet. My lead batteries routinely drop below 11.5volts under short cold soaks. The lead battery in my ship is off to the recycle yard at the end of this year.

[glidergreg]

On Monday, April 28, 2014 9:55:16 AM UTC-5, vontresc wrote:
> So I am in the market for a new battery for my Libelle. I was thinking it might be time to upgrade to a LiFePO4 battery.
>
>
>
> Any recommendations/reviews from the community? I've seen people using the K2 and Stark Power batteries. Any preference between the two?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Peter

Peter I ordered mine from these folks. Have used it for a year now and very happy with it. Make sure you get with the built in BMS typefrom whoever you order from.

http://www.bioennopower.com/collections/12v-series-lifepo4-batteries

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Monday, April 28, 2014 2:18:09 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> We have delivered many of these batteries with no complaints. They hold a charge extremely well. Our Duo has all the fancy electronics including transponder, etc, and we tested using only one battery for more than 6 hours, still showing full voltage. We actually have two batteries installed, so it is doubtful we could ever drain the very light weight batteries even on long ridge flights.
>
>
>
> The required charger recharges in about two hours.
>
>
>
> Tom Knauff
>
> www.eglider.org

So I am considering replacing one of my batteries with LifePO4 and keep the Gel Cell as my second battery, at least for another season or two. My question is if I can cause any damage when operating them in parallel. My batteries operate in parallel for short time when switching from one to the other, as well as at the end of long flights to get enough power from two weak batteries. Will this be an issue when mixing batteries?

Ramy

[[email protected]]

Because of the grossly different voltages under load/discharge, I would not recommend running them in parallel. LifePO4's voltage falls off later and very abruptly as they run out of charge so it's unlikely you'd get anything extra out of it anyway.
On Saturday, May 17, 2014 4:47:58 PM UTC+10, Ramy wrote:
> On Monday, April 28, 2014 2:18:09 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> > We have delivered many of these batteries with no complaints. They hold a charge extremely well. Our Duo has all the fancy electronics including transponder, etc, and we tested using only one battery for more than 6 hours, still showing full voltage. We actually have two batteries installed, so it is doubtful we could ever drain the very light weight batteries even on long ridge flights.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The required charger recharges in about two hours.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Tom Knauff
>
> >
>
> > www.eglider.org
>
>
>
> So I am considering replacing one of my batteries with LifePO4 and keep the Gel Cell as my second battery, at least for another season or two. My question is if I can cause any damage when operating them in parallel. My batteries operate in parallel for short time when switching from one to the other, as well as at the end of long flights to get enough power from two weak batteries. Will this be an issue when mixing batteries?
>
>
>
> Ramy

[Richard[_9_]]

On Monday, April 28, 2014 9:16:34 AM UTC-7, Andrew wrote:
> I recently got the Starkpower 12V 9Ah battery from Knauff. I've put it through one test charge/discharge cycle so far. I found...
>
>
>
> 1. It took about 10Ah when I charged it from 9V resting to full voltage (14.4V while charging for a 4 cell LiFeSO4). I imagine the advertised 9Ah rating accounts for aging after many load cycles.
>
>
>
> 2. It supplies 13.0V to 13.2V for a very long time under a 0.5A load. I'd like to see how it does under a 2A to 4A load.
>
>
>
> 3. The built-in Battery Management System (BMS) does terminate any charging attempt past 14.6V
>
>
>
> 4. The BMS does not terminate discharging at 10.5V as Starkpower's website advertises. I only brought the pack down to 9V, but other sources indicate the BMS terminates discharge at 8.2V.
>
>
>
> On Monday, April 28, 2014 10:55:16 AM UTC-4, vontresc wrote:
>
> > So I am in the market for a new battery for my Libelle. I was thinking it might be time to upgrade to a LiFePO4 battery.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Any recommendations/reviews from the community? I've seen people using the K2 and Stark Power batteries. Any preference between the two?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Thanks
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Peter

I did a discharge test on the Stark Power 12v 9Ah. 1.4 amp draw got me 280 minutes.

The lead acid 12v 9Ah at 1.4amp got me 150 to 180 minutes.

The other great advantage to the LiFePO4 is if you drop one on your foot it doesn't hurt.

Richard
www.craggyareo.com

[[email protected]]

This test of actual battery performance is fantastic.
Now, can someone do the same test of each of the batteries that are for sale?
What a great project for SSA !!! This would be a real service to all glider pilots.

[jfitch]

On Saturday, May 17, 2014 7:09:38 AM UTC-7, Richard wrote:
> On Monday, April 28, 2014 9:16:34 AM UTC-7, Andrew wrote:
>
> > I recently got the Starkpower 12V 9Ah battery from Knauff. I've put it through one test charge/discharge cycle so far. I found...
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 1. It took about 10Ah when I charged it from 9V resting to full voltage (14.4V while charging for a 4 cell LiFeSO4). I imagine the advertised 9Ah rating accounts for aging after many load cycles.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 2. It supplies 13.0V to 13.2V for a very long time under a 0.5A load. I'd like to see how it does under a 2A to 4A load.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 3. The built-in Battery Management System (BMS) does terminate any charging attempt past 14.6V
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 4. The BMS does not terminate discharging at 10.5V as Starkpower's website advertises. I only brought the pack down to 9V, but other sources indicate the BMS terminates discharge at 8.2V.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On Monday, April 28, 2014 10:55:16 AM UTC-4, vontresc wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > So I am in the market for a new battery for my Libelle. I was thinking it might be time to upgrade to a LiFePO4 battery.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Any recommendations/reviews from the community? I've seen people using the K2 and Stark Power batteries. Any preference between the two?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Thanks
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Peter
>
>
>
> I did a discharge test on the Stark Power 12v 9Ah. 1.4 amp draw got me 280 minutes.
>
>
>
> The lead acid 12v 9Ah at 1.4amp got me 150 to 180 minutes.
>
>
>
> The other great advantage to the LiFePO4 is if you drop one on your foot it doesn't hurt.
>
>
>
> Richard
>
> www.craggyareo.com

Meaning: neither came anywhere close to their 9AH spec, at least at this discharge rate. Lead acid usually spec'd at the 20 hour discharge, not sure if there is a standard for LiFe. Peukert is alive and well?

So from that test we could conclude that they both sucked, but the LiFe sucked less.....


I just got a Stark Power 12AH, seems to hold the voltage up higher always, and last longer than the 12 AH AGM that it replaced.

[[email protected]]

As Jon says, it is always good to have a look at the spec.
Taking the PowerSonic PS1290 spec as an example
http://powersonic.com/images/powersonic/sla_batteries/ps_psg_series/12volt/20140110-PS-1290.pdf

At the 5-hour discharge current of 1.44A, the specified capacity for this PS1290 9Ah SLA battery is 7.2Ah.
Richard measured 180 min = 3 hours @ 1.4 Amps = 4.2Ah.
4.2Ah of remaining capacity out of the specified 7.2 Ah means that this battery has deteriorated to 4.2/7.2 = 58% of the original capacity.
If this is a used battery, with a number of deep-discharge cycles, this deterioration is quite normal.
If this a new SLA Lead Acid battery, this is a very poor specimen.

Any rechargeable battery is a consumable.
The capacity decreases with each and every discharge-charge cycle.
The use case has a big influence on the rate of deterioration, e.g: shallow vs. deep discharge.
Looking further down the spec sheet of the Lead Acid battery, in the "life Characteristics in cyclic use" graph, you can see that this battery has a life expectancy of only about 200 deep-discharge cycles (100% discharge) and about 1100 cycles of shallow (30%) discharge.
This is why I run my batteries in parallel.

Similar calculations can be made for the LiFePO4s. I have no specification for this chemistry.
Assuming that the LiFePO4 9Ah battery derates similarly to 7.2Ah at the 5-hour current draw, Richard's measurement would indicate:
280 minutes = 4.66 hours @ 1.4 Amps = 6.53Ah or 6.53/7.2 = 91% of capacity.
Not too bad.

As said, I have all 3 of my fused SLA batteries switched in parallel. I am very comfortable with that (and no, one battery does not charge the other !)
As far as I know, the LiFePO4 packaged batteries have build-in discharge and charge protection circuits. With those, I would need to understand the spec in much detail before I would be comfortable switching them in parallel.
3U

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Saturday, May 17, 2014 10:09:38 AM UTC-4, Richard wrote:

> I did a discharge test on the Stark Power 12v 9Ah. 1.4 amp draw got me 280 minutes.
>


Most of these LFP batteries come up right to, or just over manufacturer's spec. For example, I bought a bioenno 12AH battery that I tested at 12.3 AH using a fancy RC battery charger with an integrating discharge function.

T8

[jfitch]

On Saturday, May 17, 2014 2:10:06 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> As Jon says, it is always good to have a look at the spec.
>
> Taking the PowerSonic PS1290 spec as an example
>
> http://powersonic.com/images/powersonic/sla_batteries/ps_psg_series/12volt/20140110-PS-1290.pdf
>
>
>
> At the 5-hour discharge current of 1.44A, the specified capacity for this PS1290 9Ah SLA battery is 7.2Ah.
>
> Richard measured 180 min = 3 hours @ 1.4 Amps = 4.2Ah.
>
> 4.2Ah of remaining capacity out of the specified 7.2 Ah means that this battery has deteriorated to 4.2/7.2 = 58% of the original capacity.
>
> If this is a used battery, with a number of deep-discharge cycles, this deterioration is quite normal.
>
> If this a new SLA Lead Acid battery, this is a very poor specimen.
>
>
>
> Any rechargeable battery is a consumable.
>
> The capacity decreases with each and every discharge-charge cycle.
>
> The use case has a big influence on the rate of deterioration, e.g: shallow vs. deep discharge.
>
> Looking further down the spec sheet of the Lead Acid battery, in the "life Characteristics in cyclic use" graph, you can see that this battery has a life expectancy of only about 200 deep-discharge cycles (100% discharge) and about 1100 cycles of shallow (30%) discharge.
>
> This is why I run my batteries in parallel.
>
>
>
> Similar calculations can be made for the LiFePO4s. I have no specification for this chemistry.
>
> Assuming that the LiFePO4 9Ah battery derates similarly to 7.2Ah at the 5-hour current draw, Richard's measurement would indicate:
>
> 280 minutes = 4.66 hours @ 1.4 Amps = 6.53Ah or 6.53/7.2 = 91% of capacity.
>
> Not too bad.
>
>
>
> As said, I have all 3 of my fused SLA batteries switched in parallel. I am very comfortable with that (and no, one battery does not charge the other !)
>
> As far as I know, the LiFePO4 packaged batteries have build-in discharge and charge protection circuits. With those, I would need to understand the spec in much detail before I would be comfortable switching them in parallel.
>
> 3U

I think more relevant to gliders is how deep the battery can usefully be discharged. SLA specs usually regard completely discharged as 10.5V. Modern electronics have DC-DC power supplies inside, as the input supply voltage deteriorates the current consumption goes UP, in order to supply the same currents at 5 or 3.3V to the electronics internally. Also when you hit the transmit button to announce your pattern at the end of the day, in my glider at least the current goes from about 0.6A to 1.6A. Add another 20% due to low voltage and I am trying to draw 2 amps from a mostly depleted battery, dropping the voltage further.

I don't care if I only get 200 deep discharge cycles from a $30 SLA - that represents many years of flying, the battery will decay from age before that. But the LiFe will hold its output voltage up higher when it is deeply discharged, according to Starkpower well above 12V even at 90% discharge. Another potential advantage of LiFe is that they need not be recharged fully immediately after use as they do not sulfate. Most Li battery vendors seem to recommend leaving them in a partially charged state (50-80%) for storage. So if you forget to charge it after the weekend's flying, you will do less damage to it.

[JS]

LiFePO4 batteries keep going so long that you'll rarely see a discharge below 12V.
They behave fine in parallel, charge and discharge.
They hold a charge for ages, so those who put their glider away for the winter could fly months later on the old charge.... Not that anybody ever forget to charge batteries!
There's no need to keep the panel off after preflight. No more waiting to turn the transponder on until hooking up the rope. For those with bluetooth devices, no more "it won't connect to the logger" while taking up slack.
Dare I say no more excuse to not have a transponder?
WARNING: These batteries cost more than a roll of cheap yellow electrical tape on Amazon.
Jim
(You Only Live Once department)

[Peter von Tresckow]

JS > wrote:
> LiFePO4 batteries keep going so long that you'll rarely see a discharge below 12V.
> They behave fine in parallel, charge and discharge.
> They hold a charge for ages, so those who put their glider away for the
> winter could fly months later on the old charge.... Not that anybody ever
> forget to charge batteries!
> There's no need to keep the panel off after preflight. No more waiting to
> turn the transponder on until hooking up the rope. For those with
> bluetooth devices, no more "it won't connect to the logger" while taking up slack.
> Dare I say no more excuse to not have a transponder?
> WARNING: These batteries cost more than a roll of cheap yellow electrical tape on Amazon.
> Jim
> (You Only Live Once department)

Update: bought one if the stark power batteries from Tom Knauff, and so far
I am impressed. After three hours battery voltage was still 12.7 or better.
Also I like the fact that it's nice and light should I ever drop it on my
foot ;-)

Pete

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 12:08:47 PM UTC-7, vontresc wrote:
> JS wrote:
>
> > LiFePO4 batteries keep going so long that you'll rarely see a discharge below 12V.
>
> > They behave fine in parallel, charge and discharge.
>
> > They hold a charge for ages, so those who put their glider away for the
>
> > winter could fly months later on the old charge.... Not that anybody ever
>
> > forget to charge batteries!
>
> > There's no need to keep the panel off after preflight. No more waiting to
>
> > turn the transponder on until hooking up the rope. For those with
>
> > bluetooth devices, no more "it won't connect to the logger" while taking up slack.
>
> > Dare I say no more excuse to not have a transponder?
>
> > WARNING: These batteries cost more than a roll of cheap yellow electrical tape on Amazon.
>
> > Jim
>
> > (You Only Live Once department)
>
>
>
> Update: bought one if the stark power batteries from Tom Knauff, and so far
>
> I am impressed. After three hours battery voltage was still 12.7 or better.

[Dan Marotta]

I bought a 10 Ah Tenergy from Amazon.com and it included a free smart
charger. It's a direct fit for the 9 Ah lead acid battery in the
baggage compartment of my LAK-17a and much lighter. Lasts a long time, too!


Dan Marotta 5J
On 5/21/2014 3:33 PM, jfitch wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 12:08:47 PM UTC-7, vontresc wrote:
>> JS wrote:
>>
>>> LiFePO4 batteries keep going so long that you'll rarely see a discharge below 12V.
>>> They behave fine in parallel, charge and discharge.
>>> They hold a charge for ages, so those who put their glider away for the
>>> winter could fly months later on the old charge.... Not that anybody ever
>>> forget to charge batteries!
>>> There's no need to keep the panel off after preflight. No more waiting to
>>> turn the transponder on until hooking up the rope. For those with
>>> bluetooth devices, no more "it won't connect to the logger" while taking up slack.
>>> Dare I say no more excuse to not have a transponder?
>>> WARNING: These batteries cost more than a roll of cheap yellow electrical tape on Amazon.
>>> Jim
>>> (You Only Live Once department)
>>
>>
>> Update: bought one if the stark power batteries from Tom Knauff, and so far
>>
>> I am impressed. After three hours battery voltage was still 12.7 or better.
>>
>> Also I like the fact that it's nice and light should I ever drop it on my
>>
>> foot ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>> Pete
> I have a new Starkpower 12 AH. I just ran it down to see how long it would last, also when it goes flat how suddenly. Powering a Butterfly vario, PowerFlarm, Trig 21, Dittel radio, Ilec spare vario, iPhone 5S running iGlide. Draw was bout 0.9A until the iPhone is charged, then drops to around 0.7A with no radio transmission and infrequent transponder hits. Starts out at 13.1V, then quickly settles to 12.9V. At about hour 11, down to 12.5V. From there to hour 13 a more steady decline to 11.5V. I shut it off at 14 hours, about 11.2V. That's longer than my usual day flying! I'm not sure how much longer until the 9.5V shutoff, probably not much as the voltage decline was accelerating. Anyway, plenty of life, plenty of warning when it is going soft.

[Dave Springford]

The discharge cited above is pretty typical for LFP batteries. See my webpage for the measured discharge curves for the K2 LFP battery. The graph shows a very flat discharge followed by a sudden drop at the end of the cycle.

http://www.foxonecorp.com/index.php/accessories/lithium-iron-battery

For anyone who is interested in a K2 battery, I will be in Cordele for the Region V South contest with a few K2's and chargers on hand.


Dave Springford
Fox One Corp

[[email protected]]

Does anyone have experience charging these with a battery tender plus? I've got a new K2 10ah battery and considering a specific charger.

What indications does the battery tender give? What's a typical time to charge?

[Dave Springford]

Jeff,

The LFP batteries, while they can be charged with SLA chargers, are better charged by a dedicated LFP charger. The reason for this is they need to charge up to 14.6 volts to get a 100% charge. Most SLA chargers will give only 13.75 volts and this leaves the LFP battery around 80% charged and this pretty much defeats the purpose of buying the higher capacity LFP battery.

I have LFP chargers for $30 (see the address for my webpage in my previous post).


Dave Springford
Fox One Corp

[[email protected]]

A multi chemistry charger with firmware that is upgradable to accommodate changing battery technology is a better way to go. CellPro (and other knockoffs) has several chargers that will safely and accurately charge LiFePO4 batteries among many others with one charger.

I have used a Cellpro multi 4s charger to charge my Shorai lithium iron battery which does not have a battery management system for quite a while. It will also charge a lead acid, nimh, nicad, lipo and others.

You will be able to set the charge rate, monitor the health of the cells, balance the cells (still important for a LiFePO4).

[[email protected]]

Thanks guys

[WaltWX[_2_]]

Just bought a Tenergy LiFePO4 12.8V 10ah + Charger from all-battery.com

It has the Battery Management System (BMS) with short circuit, over charge and under discharge protection.

QUESTION: Any recommendations from other glider pilots on whether I should ALSO add a fuse on the battery before installing the connector for my ship?

BTW.. all-battery.com had a good deal. Total price $164.56 included free 1.5amp charger, tax, shipping and a $19.20 discount. Battery was $159.99.

Walt Rogers WX

[jfitch]

On Saturday, June 14, 2014 1:15:51 PM UTC-7, WaltWX wrote:
> Just bought a Tenergy LiFePO4 12.8V 10ah + Charger from all-battery.com
>
>
>
> It has the Battery Management System (BMS) with short circuit, over charge and under discharge protection.
>
>
>
> QUESTION: Any recommendations from other glider pilots on whether I should ALSO add a fuse on the battery before installing the connector for my ship?
>
>
>
> BTW.. all-battery.com had a good deal. Total price $164.56 included free 1.5amp charger, tax, shipping and a $19.20 discount. Battery was $159.99.
>
>
>
> Walt Rogers WX

Personally I would ALWAYS install a fuse directly on the battery pack as close as practical to the terminal post. The purpose of a power distribution fuse is to protect the wiring on the load side. While your battery pack may have some form of short circuit protection for itself, you have no way of inspecting it or knowing if protection for it, might mean less than 30 amps draw which would happily torch your wiring - with no harm to the battery. The fuse you install should be the appropriate size for the smallest wire it serves.

[Marcin S]

I purchased the exact battery and charger set from all battery. The battery and charger are made by tenergy. I got it January of last year and the battery started to fail at the end of last season. I was running out of power about 3 hrs into my flight.

Most recently, the battery voltage goes down to 5 volts under 1 amp load.

I called temergy and they told me the pcb is bad. They also told me that they can sell me one and if I cut the case open I can simply install it myself and glue the case with jb weld. Not exactly what I wanted to hear after spending $160 on a battery that is supposed to outlast a regular sealed lead acid battery.

Keep Iin mind that their warranty is very short. I would buy somewhere where the warranty is much longer.

Marcin

[Dan Marotta]

Send me your battery (postage paid) and I'll happily repair it and use
it in my ship!

More seriously, I bought my Tenergy 10 Ah battery from Amazon for $153
and it included a charger and shipping. I installed a fuse within one
inch of the battery and, at least for a year, I will take the battery
home to charge rather than leave it plugged in at the airport. One
night I forgot to unplug it and, in the morning, it was cool to the
touch, fully charged, and accepting no current. I also have a Watts Up
inline power meter which records voltage, current, and power dissipation
and was surprised to see that my peak amperage is 2.8 amps in service!
I suppose that means when I transmit and my transponder is replying at
the same time, plus computer, Streak, etc...

Dan Marotta

On 6/14/2014 4:39 PM, Marcin S wrote:
> I purchased the exact battery and charger set from all battery. The battery and charger are made by tenergy. I got it January of last year and the battery started to fail at the end of last season. I was running out of power about 3 hrs into my flight.
>
> Most recently, the battery voltage goes down to 5 volts under 1 amp load.
>
> I called temergy and they told me the pcb is bad. They also told me that they can sell me one and if I cut the case open I can simply install it myself and glue the case with jb weld. Not exactly what I wanted to hear after spending $160 on a battery that is supposed to outlast a regular sealed lead acid battery.
>
> Keep Iin mind that their warranty is very short. I would buy somewhere where the warranty is much longer.
>
> Marcin

[Marcin S]

Thanks for your offer Dan :-)

I ended up installing an additional battery http://www.bioennopower.com/collections/12v-series-lifepo4-batteries/products/12v-20ah-lfp-battery-abs-sealed-low-profile

So now I have over 30 Amp hours

They also offer a two year pro-rated warranty.

Marcin

[WaltWX[_2_]]

That's a vote of one... for using a fuse on the battery.

Bought the Tenergy because of recommendations of fellow glider pilot friends and good customer service. Actually, I was intending to pay a little more for the K2, but at Batteriesinaflash.com, the customer service guy told me that they weren't available from the company for up to 45days. Batteriesinaflash.com doesn't carry the Tenergy because "...the K2 is a better battery". The next day, I received a return call from the company rep, K2... and as it turned out could have picked one up from them or WingsAndWheels. K2 says that their BMS is better quality and same for the battery all the way through. Of course, it's a little more expensive. Based on WingsAndWheels and David Springford's business, it appears other have come to the same conclusion that the K2 is a better battery.

Let's hope infant mortality on my Tenergy BMS won't show up for awhile. The price on the Tenergy 12.8V 10ah with free charger was $160 minus $19 discount before taxes and shipping. So, it appears that they are discounting them a bit... probably because of more failures.

Walt Rogers WX

[WaltWX[_2_]]

Correction... two for two voting for a fuse on the battery.

Walt WX

[Peter Purdie[_3_]]

Personally I fit a Klixon 7277, 7.5A circuit breaker right next to the
terminal. Same principle, but if it trips for a good reason I can find,
I'm not searching for a spare fuse just before take off.

Same idea, different solution.

At 00:58 15 June 2014, WaltWX wrote:
>Correction... two for two voting for a fuse on the battery.
>
>Walt WX
>

[son_of_flubber]

On Saturday, June 14, 2014 6:39:13 PM UTC-4, Marcin S wrote:
> The battery and charger are made by tenergy. I got it January of last year and the battery started to fail at the end of last season.
>
> Most recently, the battery voltage goes down to 5 volts under 1 amp load.

> I called temergy and they told me the pcb is bad.

This failed PCB is the component that protects the battery from other (very) bad things? Is flying with a half-broken LiPo battery different than flying with a Tost hook that has only one broken spring?

[[email protected]]

DEFINITELY have a fuse or circuit breaker right at the battery. Make sure the battery terminals are well protected too. If you're using a PS-1270 size battery the Walter Dittel battery box does both those things and makes fitting the battery for flight quick easy and secure. If only they used a connector more solid and suitable for heavier gauge wire than those goofy DIN plugs.

My ASW-15 has the battery installed in the control compartment and the only protection was a fuse on the panel. I changed that pretty soon after buying it. I also just installed a K2 battery in the Dittel box because I upgraded the vario/computer and installed PowerFLARM - figured I would need more capacity. The club gliders where I fly all have a plastic enclosure epoxied to the top of the battery covering the terminals and wires. There's either a fuse or breaker on the box and a 3 pin XLR chassis jack matched by a 3 pin XLR plug on the glider wiring and the chargers. Seemed kind of odd to me as XLR connectors aren't made for power delivery (well, except for phantom power) but the setup seems to be effective and foolproof. The XLR's are a hell of a lot more rugged than the DIN connectors our DG-505 has.

[son_of_flubber]

http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/

[WaltWX[_2_]]

Battery installed with 5ah FUSE on battery. Working fine. Since the BMS units can fail... and have failed on the Tenergy, it's best to fuse it on the battery.

Right now I'm testing this Tenergy LiFePo4 12.8v10ah unit on my CBA III load device. Set up to discharge at 0.8 amp. Will report tonight on how it does with a graph.

Walt Rogers WX

On Saturday, June 14, 2014 1:15:51 PM UTC-7, WaltWX wrote:
> Just bought a Tenergy LiFePO4 12.8V 10ah + Charger from all-battery.com
>
>
>
> It has the Battery Management System (BMS) with short circuit, over charge and under discharge protection.
>
>
>
> QUESTION: Any recommendations from other glider pilots on whether I should ALSO add a fuse on the battery before installing the connector for my ship?
>
>

[Craig Funston]

On Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:04:52 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/

Or http://www.astroflight.com/electronics/electrical-connectors.html

These are more compact than the Powerpoles and make very reliable high current connections.

[Craig Funston]

On Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:04:52 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/

should have provided this link. sorry
http://www.astroflight.com/electronics/electrical-connectors/525.html

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 19 Jun 2014 08:52:49 -0700, Craig Funston wrote:

> On Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:04:52 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/
>
> should have provided this link. sorry
> http://www.astroflight.com/electronics/electrical-connectors/525.html

Wouldn't the type 527 be more suitable? I haven't seen them in person,
but the 527s would appear to have their contacts entirely inside the
housings (so less chance of shorting on anything metallic) and of course
the housing shapes will prevent reverse polarity connections.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[JS]

What are the connectors supplied by AirBatt on their LiFePO4s in Schempp-Hirth gliders? Seems to be a standard connector, available pre-assembled from accu-24.de.
I find the 15A PowerPoles very good.
Jim

[[email protected]]

We have sold a lot of these new LiFpo batteries this year with outstanding success. No problems - everyone likes them. One important feature is they are the same size as most gliders have been using, so no special problems for installation. Our retail price is $99.95, and the special charger is cheap too.

Tom Knauff
www.eglider.org

[waremark]

On Thursday, 19 June 2014 18:37:37 UTC+1, JS wrote:
> What are the connectors supplied by AirBatt on their LiFePO4s in Schempp-Hirth gliders? Seems to be a standard connector, available pre-assembled from accu-24.de.
>
> I find the 15A PowerPoles very good.
>
> Jim

I bought these for my Arcus, 'plug and play', seems all good apart from the price:

http://www.accu-24.de/de/LiFePO4-Akkus/LiFePO4-Versorgungsbatterien/Airbatt-LiFePO4/AIRBATT-Energiepower-LiFePO4-12V-10Ah-Kabelausg.-MPX-stirns.

[Dan Marotta]

....And only 17 times the price of the powerpoles!

Dan Marotta

On 6/19/2014 9:52 AM, Craig Funston wrote:
> On Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:04:52 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/
> should have provided this link. sorry
> http://www.astroflight.com/electronics/electrical-connectors/525.html
>

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:38:30 AM UTC-4, WaltWX wrote:
> ... Since the BMS units can fail... and have failed on the Tenergy, ...

Does the BMS for LiPO4 batteries do anything during discharge in flight?

Does a BMS failure during flight have any bad consequences (other than loss of electrical power)?

[Craig Funston]

On Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:59:35 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> ...And only 17 times the price of the powerpoles!
>
>
>
> Dan Marotta
>
>
>
> On 6/19/2014 9:52 AM, Craig Funston wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:04:52 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> >> http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/
>
> > should have provided this link. sorry
>
> > http://www.astroflight.com/electronics/electrical-connectors/525.html
>
> >

Double, yes. You get what you pay for.

Cheers,
Craig

[[email protected]]

I bought a pair from Tom Knauff. Very happy with my purchase The charger he sells is inexpensive but very high quality. Support soaring vendors who contribute in many ways to our small community.

[WaltWX[_2_]]

Here's the CBA III battery test graphic on the Tenergy LiFePO4 12.8V10ah. It rated at 9.71ah and ran for 11hours on 0.8amp draw from 13.1V to 12.7V. Dropped off in the last hour to 11.5V bringing it to 12 hours of useful life.. I arbitrarily set the cut off at 11.5V in my test:

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/xc4e0furdwnbsky/LiFePo4_Tenergy_L1.jpg

Walt Rogers WX

[Dan Marotta]

Double? I got 10 *pairs* of powerpoles for $11. It looks like the ones
I commented on were $17 for *ONE* pair. If I misread the ad, I apologize.

And the powerpoles have been working flawlessly in my glider for the 3
years I've owned it. I'll stick with what I know.

Dan Marotta

On 6/19/2014 8:15 PM, Craig Funston wrote:
> On Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:59:35 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> ...And only 17 times the price of the powerpoles!
>>
>>
>>
>> Dan Marotta
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/19/2014 9:52 AM, Craig Funston wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:04:52 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
>>>> http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/
>>> should have provided this link. sorry
>>> http://www.astroflight.com/electronics/electrical-connectors/525.html
> Double, yes. You get what you pay for.
>
> Cheers,
> Craig

[JS]

On Friday, June 20, 2014 7:15:14 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Double? I got 10 *pairs* of powerpoles for $11. It looks like the ones
>
> I commented on were $17 for *ONE* pair. If I misread the ad, I apologize.
>
>
>
> And the powerpoles have been working flawlessly in my glider for the 3
>
> years I've owned it. I'll stick with what I know.
>
>
>
> Dan Marotta
>
>
>
> On 6/19/2014 8:15 PM, Craig Funston wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:59:35 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> >> ...And only 17 times the price of the powerpoles!
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Dan Marotta
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> On 6/19/2014 9:52 AM, Craig Funston wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>> On Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:04:52 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> >>>> http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/
>
> >>> should have provided this link. sorry
>
> >>> http://www.astroflight.com/electronics/electrical-connectors/525.html
>
> > Double, yes. You get what you pay for.
>
> >
>
> > Cheers,
>
> > Craig

Another vote...
Noticed this morning that APC UPSs use Anderson PowerPoles for battery connection.
Jim

[Papa3[_2_]]

There's also a broad and increasing base of users of Powerpoles, including RC and Ham Radio. So, you're likely to have access to tools and supplies in a pinch (like going to a contest and forgetting your charger or batteries and having to rig up a replacement on the fly - hypothetically of course)..

P3

On Friday, June 20, 2014 10:24:20 AM UTC-4, JS wrote:
> On Friday, June 20, 2014 7:15:14 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> > Double? I got 10 *pairs* of powerpoles for $11. It looks like the ones
>
> >
>
> > I commented on were $17 for *ONE* pair. If I misread the ad, I apologize.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > And the powerpoles have been working flawlessly in my glider for the 3
>
> >
>
> > years I've owned it. I'll stick with what I know.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Dan Marotta
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On 6/19/2014 8:15 PM, Craig Funston wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:59:35 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >> ...And only 17 times the price of the powerpoles!
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> Dan Marotta
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> On 6/19/2014 9:52 AM, Craig Funston wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >>> On Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:04:52 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >>>> http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/
>
> >
>
> > >>> should have provided this link. sorry
>
> >
>
> > >>> http://www.astroflight.com/electronics/electrical-connectors/525.html
>
> >
>
> > > Double, yes. You get what you pay for.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Cheers,
>
> >
>
> > > Craig
>
>
>
> Another vote...
>
> Noticed this morning that APC UPSs use Anderson PowerPoles for battery connection.
>
> Jim

[Craig Funston]

On Friday, June 20, 2014 7:15:14 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Double? I got 10 *pairs* of powerpoles for $11. It looks like the ones
>
> I commented on were $17 for *ONE* pair. If I misread the ad, I apologize.
>
>
>
> And the powerpoles have been working flawlessly in my glider for the 3
>
> years I've owned it. I'll stick with what I know.
>
>
>
> Dan Marotta
>
>
>
> On 6/19/2014 8:15 PM, Craig Funston wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:59:35 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> >> ...And only 17 times the price of the powerpoles!
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Dan Marotta
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> On 6/19/2014 9:52 AM, Craig Funston wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>> On Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:04:52 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> >>>> http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/
>
> >>> should have provided this link. sorry
>
> >>> http://www.astroflight.com/electronics/electrical-connectors/525.html
>
> > Double, yes. You get what you pay for.
>
> >
>
> > Cheers,
>
> > Craig

Hi Dan,
I misread the powerpole ad and didn't see that the price is for 10 pairs. My bad :-) You're definitely right the economics are in PowerPole's favor. I still like my AF connectors though.
Cheers,
Craig

[GC[_2_]]

On 20-Jun-14 01:52, Craig Funston wrote:
> On Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:04:52 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/
>
> should have provided this link. sorry
> http://www.astroflight.com/electronics/electrical-connectors/525.html

$17 for a 50 amp connector in a circuit which has a 5 amp fuse on the
battery???

Exactly what useful benefit does the buyer get over a powerpole for a
tenth the price?

GC

[noel.wade]

Quick question: Does anyone know how LiFEPO4 cells work in conjunction with glider-mounted solar panels (in my case, a Strobl system on a Schleicher from the late 2000's)?

Thanks,

--Noel

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

GC wrote, On 6/22/2014 8:51 AM:
> On 20-Jun-14 01:52, Craig Funston wrote:
>> On Thursday, June 19, 2014 5:04:52 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
>>> http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/
>>
>> should have provided this link. sorry
>> http://www.astroflight.com/electronics/electrical-connectors/525.html
>
> $17 for a 50 amp connector in a circuit which has a 5 amp fuse on the
> battery???
>
> Exactly what useful benefit does the buyer get over a powerpole for a
> tenth the price?

I prefer the crimp connections of the Powerpoles over the soldered
connection o f the 525s.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

[JS]

The Strobl system will work, but not give a 100% charge.
Jim

[Tomasz Sielicki]

It looks like there are dedicated solar charger controllers for LiFePo4 batteries like this one from Bioenno Power:

http://www.bioennopower.com/pages/12v-24-solar-controller-for-lifepo4-batteries