Old American solid rivets

[Matt]

Hi all,
A slightly unusual question to pose to you all. I was wondering if
anyone might know if the old A17 series (S and ST) solid rivets had a
more domed head on them than the current AN470/MS20470 series do?
Would be interested to hear any thoughts on this. Many thanks and have
a great weekend.

Cheers,
Matt

[Paul]

Hey Matt,

First off I would ask you, mainly because I am really not familiar with
the rivets that you are speaking of. Primarily all of the aircraft
rivets previously and in use today all had the "AN" prefix to their
respective designators. Such as AN426, AN427, AN470 and so forth.
Additionally, some rivets had other designators to signify if the
material used in their manufacture were of something other than aluminum
alloys. Such as "C" for Copper, "M" for monel, "A" for what is reffered
to as a "Dead Soft" or pure aluminum (1100 series), "AD", "DD", "D", and
"B" (which is a magnesium rivet) and so forth, for the other types of
rivets which were in use. the Part number would look something like this
for a hard(er) aluminum rivet. AN470DD5-6. The desigantors you speak of
here, "S" and "ST" are old designators for aluminum sheet stock, such as
24S or 24ST. Although it is possible that those "S" and "ST" designators
were used on rivets I am not familiar with them or their respective use.
The "S" and "ST" desigantors used on the sheet stock were indicators
of aluminum temper "S" being annealed and "ST" being heat treated
hardened sheet stock. Before and during WW II there were many other
styles of rivets for aircraft. Flat Head, Round Head, Pan Head,
etc...but those gave way to what we use now in the "Universal Head",
which is the AN470 series. I would have to do some digging into my old
books to find you some more info on specific AN series of rivets. Hope
this helps. By the way...what year is the A/C that you are working on ?
I have worked A/C stuctures on and off, as has my father, for many
years. If I can help...shoot me a note at my e-mail adress.

Regards,

Paul

Matt wrote:
> Hi all,
> A slightly unusual question to pose to you all. I was wondering if
> anyone might know if the old A17 series (S and ST) solid rivets had a
> more domed head on them than the current AN470/MS20470 series do?
> Would be interested to hear any thoughts on this. Many thanks and have
> a great weekend.
>
> Cheers,
> Matt

[JDupre5762]

>I was wondering if
>anyone might know if the old A17 series (S and ST) solid rivets had a
>more domed head on them than the current AN470/MS20470 series do?

As someone else posted S and ST stand for the type of alloy the rivet is made
of. However raised head rivets prior to the AN470/MS20470 Universal Head style
were of three types.

There was a Flat Head style where the raised head was actually flat looking
like the head of a clevis pin. There was a Round Head style where the profile
of the head was higher and of a smaller radius than the Universal Head. And
there was a Brazier Head where the profile of the head was lower and of a
greater radius than the Universal Head. Don't have any references with me but
all had AN numbers. I am not sure if the overall diameter of these heads
varied in size but each required a different rivet set or snap to drive.

The Universal Head was developed specifically to replace all three of the
previous raised head designs and thus lower tooling and parts costs.

John Dupre'

[Matt]

Hi John and Paul,
Many thanks for your replies. It sounds like the Round Head style
is what I was thinking of. The aircraft dates from the WW2 period, '39
to '45. The Wirraway was Australian made, and I'm trying to see if the
rivets used were of either U.S. or English origin, or whether they
were made to a local design. If at all possible, I'd like to use
original style rivets, although I'm doubting that this will be able to
happen.
Does anyone know if any one might still happen to make the older
style rivets? An extreme long shot, but one can only ask. Thanks again
for your assistance.

Cheers,
Matt


(JDupre5762) wrote in message >...
> >I was wondering if
> >anyone might know if the old A17 series (S and ST) solid rivets had a
> >more domed head on them than the current AN470/MS20470 series do?
>
> As someone else posted S and ST stand for the type of alloy the rivet is made
> of. However raised head rivets prior to the AN470/MS20470 Universal Head style
> were of three types.
>
> There was a Flat Head style where the raised head was actually flat looking
> like the head of a clevis pin. There was a Round Head style where the profile
> of the head was higher and of a smaller radius than the Universal Head. And
> there was a Brazier Head where the profile of the head was lower and of a
> greater radius than the Universal Head. Don't have any references with me but
> all had AN numbers. I am not sure if the overall diameter of these heads
> varied in size but each required a different rivet set or snap to drive.
>
> The Universal Head was developed specifically to replace all three of the
> previous raised head designs and thus lower tooling and parts costs.
>
> John Dupre'

[JDupre5762]

> Many thanks for your replies. It sounds like the Round Head style
>is what I was thinking of. The

>aircraft dates from the WW2 period, '39
>to '45. The Wirraway was Australian made, and I'm trying to see if the
>rivets used were of either U.S. or
>English origin, or whether they
>were made to a local design. If at all possible, I'd like to use
>original style rivets, although I'm doubting that this will be able to
>happen.

The Wirraway was developed from the North American NA-16 series of aircraft.
Maybe the rivets are American design? I have long wanted to know what
difference there was between the rivet styles used by the wartime forces. It
seems pretty trivial but there are more serious issues that no one knows
anything about now and may be lost to history soon.

I have seen the rivet sets for the various older styles for sale in current
tool catalogs and I have from time to time seen collections of older style
rivets for sale at flea markets so it may just be possible to get them. I
would contact the National Air and Space Museum here in the US. I think if
anyone would know they would. I think the British style rivets are still
available in Britain. Read once about a Spitfire project that crossed the
Atlantic a couple of times and one of the issues was the replacement of all the
American style rivets with the proper British style.

John Dupre'

[Bela P. Havasreti]

On 22 Jun 2004 00:47:06 GMT, (JDupre5762) wrote:

>> Many thanks for your replies. It sounds like the Round Head style
>>is what I was thinking of. The
>
>>aircraft dates from the WW2 period, '39
>>to '45. The Wirraway was Australian made, and I'm trying to see if the
>>rivets used were of either U.S. or
>>English origin, or whether they
>>were made to a local design. If at all possible, I'd like to use
>>original style rivets, although I'm doubting that this will be able to
>>happen.
>
>The Wirraway was developed from the North American NA-16 series of aircraft.
>Maybe the rivets are American design? I have long wanted to know what
>difference there was between the rivet styles used by the wartime forces. It
>seems pretty trivial but there are more serious issues that no one knows
>anything about now and may be lost to history soon.
>
>I have seen the rivet sets for the various older styles for sale in current
>tool catalogs and I have from time to time seen collections of older style
>rivets for sale at flea markets so it may just be possible to get them. I
>would contact the National Air and Space Museum here in the US. I think if
>anyone would know they would. I think the British style rivets are still
>available in Britain. Read once about a Spitfire project that crossed the
>Atlantic a couple of times and one of the issues was the replacement of all the
>American style rivets with the proper British style.
>
>John Dupre'

The old style rivets mentioned (flat head, brazier, etc.) are all over
the North American T-6/SNJ/Harvard series aircraft.

43-13 allows the substitution of "modern" (universal head) rivets, and
I belong to the "keep it simple, stupid" crowd <grins>.

There was stuff done back then that doesn't make a great deal of
sense now (for example, some components have an abnormally high
"part count", and border on "Rube Goldberg" solutions to
what could be fairly simple assemblies!).

Bela P. Havasreti