Paper Maps Cockpit -- What do you do? Moving Map Display

[WaltWX[_2_]]

I still like to fly with paper sectionals in the cockpit, especially in contests with marked up TP numbers and landout options. GlidePlan, Matt Heron's program, worked quite well at pasting together maps with waypoint info. Although, his sectionals have not been kept up to date... now about 3yrs old..

Although, I must admit, I rarely look at the paper. LK8000 maps with TPs, landout sites and airspace mostly make up for the paper sectionals (SeeYou Mobile or other more expensive moving map display avionics do the same). Recently I was getting a bit low and grabbed my dog eared sectional to read the tower frequency. Unfortunately, it was on the map crease and the numbers were unreadable. Do Lynn Alleys Soaringdata.info *.cups files have the tower/ATIS frequencies? I know, that I can add them.

QUESTION: What is your practice with respect to using paper maps in the cockpit or moving map displays for airspace/airport information?

I found that using my mini Ipad was not practical in my Discus 2A cockpit.

I'm more interested in practical solutions, not the legal ramifications from FARs of having navigation/aeronautical database info in the cockpit.

Can Lynn Alley's sectionals (which are up to date) easily be printed out from SeeYou or other programs to replace GlidePlan?

Would like to hear your opinions and solutions.

Walt Rogers WX

[[email protected]]

You are legally required to carry paper maps that show all relevant airspace (ie. a half mill) with you on any cross country flight

[Greg Delp]

I usually print out the most recent digital sectional areas where I intend to fly plus some extra margin around the edges in case the weather is better than forecast. If it's an area I fly in often or I've marked up the sections with turn points I will laminate them also. In preparation for my first competition I actually was looking to buy four sectionals (Mifflin area is on four sectional corners)I was visiting Sun and Fun and found the DuraCharts booth. Their charts are tear resistant (I would say proof)and can be folded, unfolded, creased etc without messing up the printed data. I think these are about perfect for use in a glider if you want to take along paper. Plus they are much cheaper than regular sectionals.

As far as the legalities this has been argued many times.

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/faq/#q8b


What is the FAA policy for carrying current charts?
The specific FAA regulation, FAR 91.103 "Preflight Actions," states that each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. Although the regulation does not specifically require it, you should always carry a current chart with you in flight. Expired charts may not show frequency changes or newly constructed obstructions, both of which when unknown could crate a hazard.

The only FAA/FAR requirements that pertain to charts are:

Title 14 CFR section 91.503[a] (Large and Turbojet powered aircraft)
Title 14 CFR section 135.83 (Air Carriers-Little Airplane)
Title 14 CFR section 121.549 (Air Carrier-Big Airplanes)
The FAA's July/August 1997 issue of FAA Aviation News on "current" aeronautical charts provided the following information:

"You can carry old charts in your aircraft." "It is not FAA policy to violate anyone for having outdated charts in the aircraft."
"Not all pilots are required to carry a chart." "91.503..requires the pilot in command of large and multiengine airplanes to have charts." "Other operating sections of the FAR such as Part 121 and Part 135 operations have similar requirements."
...."since some pilots thought they could be violated for having outdated or no charts on board during a flight, we need to clarify an important issue. As we have said, it is NOT FAA policy to initiate enforcement action against a pilot for having an old chart on board or no chart on board." That's because there is no regulation on the issue.
...."the issue of current chart data bases in handheld GPS receivers is a non-issue because the units are neither approved by the FAA or required for flight, nor do panel-mounted VFR-only GPS receivers have to have a current data base because, like handheld GPS receivers, the pilot is responsible for pilotage under VFR.
"If a pilot is involved in an enforcement investigation and there is evidence that the use of an out-of-date chart, no chart, or an out-of-date database contributed to the condition that brought on the enforcement investigation, then that information could be used in any enforcement action that might be taken."

[6PK]

On Wednesday, April 30, 2014 11:09:39 PM UTC-7, WaltWX wrote:
> I still like to fly with paper sectionals in the cockpit, especially in contests with marked up TP numbers and landout options. GlidePlan, Matt Heron's program, worked quite well at pasting together maps with waypoint info. Although, his sectionals have not been kept up to date... now about 3yrs old.
>
>
>
> Although, I must admit, I rarely look at the paper. LK8000 maps with TPs, landout sites and airspace mostly make up for the paper sectionals (SeeYou Mobile or other more expensive moving map display avionics do the same). Recently I was getting a bit low and grabbed my dog eared sectional to read the tower frequency. Unfortunately, it was on the map crease and the numbers were unreadable. Do Lynn Alleys Soaringdata.info *.cups files have the tower/ATIS frequencies? I know, that I can add them.
>
>
>
> QUESTION: What is your practice with respect to using paper maps in the cockpit or moving map displays for airspace/airport information?
>
>
>
> I found that using my mini Ipad was not practical in my Discus 2A cockpit..
>
>
>
> I'm more interested in practical solutions, not the legal ramifications from FARs of having navigation/aeronautical database info in the cockpit.
>
>
>
> Can Lynn Alley's sectionals (which are up to date) easily be printed out from SeeYou or other programs to replace GlidePlan?
>
>
>
> Would like to hear your opinions and solutions.
>
>
>
> Walt Rogers WX

Walt
All modern flight computers SYM, WP, XCsoar, LK800 etc. will have an aviation database. Simply by clicking on the particular airport or airspace you can view frequencies, runway info, hours of operation etc. in probably more detail that you are able to "locate" on the sectional.
Lynn Alley's regularly updated data is by far the most current you can obtain. The ones from SYM and not to mention WinPilot are tend to be old and out of date.
6PK

[Andy[_1_]]

On Thursday, May 1, 2014 3:49:22 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> You are legally required to carry paper maps that show all relevant airspace (ie. a half mill) with you on any cross country flight

Please explain your basis for that assertion and provide references to any related laws or regulations.

Please also define "cross country flight" by reference to the related laws or regulations.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, May 1, 2014 4:43:46 PM UTC+1, Andy wrote:
> On Thursday, May 1, 2014 3:49:22 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> > You are legally required to carry paper maps that show all relevant airspace (ie. a half mill) with you on any cross country flight
>
>
>
> Please explain your basis for that assertion and provide references to any related laws or regulations.
>
>
>
> Please also define "cross country flight" by reference to the related laws or regulations.

A glider shall be
provided with 'adequate equipment', which includes maps, charts etc,
necessary for the intended flight, including any diversion which may reasonably be expected.

ANO 2009 Art 37 and Schedule 4

[Andy[_1_]]

On Thursday, May 1, 2014 10:37:41 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> ANO 2009 Art 37 and Schedule 4

The OP is in USA as am I. Do you believe ANO 2009 Art 37 and Schedule 4 is applicable?

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote, On 5/1/2014 10:37 AM:
> On Thursday, May 1, 2014 4:43:46 PM UTC+1, Andy wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 1, 2014 3:49:22 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>>
>>> You are legally required to carry paper maps that show all relevant airspace (ie. a half mill) with you on any cross country flight
>>
>>
>>
>> Please explain your basis for that assertion and provide references to any related laws or regulations.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please also define "cross country flight" by reference to the related laws or regulations.
>
> A glider shall be
> provided with 'adequate equipment', which includes maps, charts etc,
> necessary for the intended flight, including any diversion which may reasonably be expected.
>
> ANO 2009 Art 37 and Schedule 4

I don't see any reference to paper maps in what you quoted, nor does it
exclude electronic maps. I think "adequate equipment" obviously includes
electronic maps, as they are unquestionably adequate.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, April 30, 2014 11:09:39 PM UTC-7, WaltWX wrote:

> Can Lynn Alley's sectionals (which are up to date) easily be printed out from SeeYou or other programs to replace GlidePlan?

__________

That would be a great idea if there were a way to make Lynn's Maps importable by GlidePlan. I really like being able to import and mark waypoints.

I suspect there is some sort of geocoding compatibility that would need to be established between the two.

9B

[Dan Marotta]

I carry a folded up sectional to be legal but I get my information via
XCSoar running on a Dell Streak 5.


"WaltWX" > wrote in message
...
I still like to fly with paper sectionals in the cockpit, especially in
contests with marked up TP numbers and landout options. GlidePlan, Matt
Heron's program, worked quite well at pasting together maps with waypoint
info. Although, his sectionals have not been kept up to date... now about
3yrs old.

Although, I must admit, I rarely look at the paper. LK8000 maps with TPs,
landout sites and airspace mostly make up for the paper sectionals (SeeYou
Mobile or other more expensive moving map display avionics do the same).
Recently I was getting a bit low and grabbed my dog eared sectional to read
the tower frequency. Unfortunately, it was on the map crease and the numbers
were unreadable. Do Lynn Alleys Soaringdata.info *.cups files have the
tower/ATIS frequencies? I know, that I can add them.

QUESTION: What is your practice with respect to using paper maps in the
cockpit or moving map displays for airspace/airport information?

I found that using my mini Ipad was not practical in my Discus 2A cockpit.

I'm more interested in practical solutions, not the legal ramifications from
FARs of having navigation/aeronautical database info in the cockpit.

Can Lynn Alley's sectionals (which are up to date) easily be printed out
from SeeYou or other programs to replace GlidePlan?

Would like to hear your opinions and solutions.

Walt Rogers WX

[Martin Smith[_2_]]

I use the technology to help me fly the task and the paper map to help me
understand my location. In the UK the paper map I'm obliged to buy every
year and carry with me in the cockpit is the legally accurate and up to
date document and the moving map data has disclaimers. That said, I've not
encountered an accuracy issue with the thoroughly fine people that prepare
the generally used map data.

I have Winpilot set to show minimal stuff with a plain background. Just
airspace boundaries, task line, waypoints and airfield locations and a few
of those widgets that show distance and bearing to next turnpoint, height
required to get there etc. Once I have declared the task I tend not to
touch the PDA again during the flight. When I see something getting closer
on the PDA moving map I look at the paper map to check/confirm/remember
what it means to me. I choose not to have many warning popups on the PDA
cluttering the picture or squeaking at me and grabbing my attention when
I'd rather be looking outside.

When getting my act together(?) before the flight, as well as marking the
task and NOTAMs on the laminated map I take the time to write extra stuff
such as highlighting relevant small details that happen to fall on a fold.

Martin
ASW27 N5

>
>
>"WaltWX" wrote in message
...
>I still like to fly with paper sectionals in the cockpit, especially in
...
>
>Would like to hear your opinions and solutions.
>
>Walt Rogers WX
>
>