View Full Version : Sisteron SGP 2014
http://www.sgp.aero/final2014.aspx
Anyone wanna bet against Kawa?
On Sunday, May 11, 2014 3:26:06 PM UTC+10, wrote:
> Anyone wanna bet against Kawa?
I would put money on Didier Hauss - he's the closest anyone's come to knocking Kawa off in a long time http://www.soaringspot.com/egc2013/results/18-meter/total/day8.html
Seems like he cracked under the pressure last year and outlanded on the last though...
Mais, my friend Bruce est returning from la maladie, winning day 3....
Jim
Without any doubt D.Hauss is an extremely competent pilot, he is operating on his own playground and with two other french pilots. Day seven was his from the very start to the finish line. He is a leader going into the last day of competition. Beautiful. Very interesting.
On Friday, May 16, 2014 1:15:36 PM UTC+10, GR8 wrote:
> Without any doubt D.Hauss is an extremely competent pilot, he is operating on his own playground and with two other french pilots. Day seven was his from the very start to the finish line. He is a leader going into the last day of competition. Beautiful. Very interesting.
Today is the day we see what he's learnt since last year.
On Sunday, May 11, 2014 12:15:09 AM UTC-5, GR8 wrote:
> http://www.sgp.aero/final2014.aspx
- interesting to see how wing's loading was limited to 50 kg/m per square meter in favor of older ventus designs...
On Friday, May 16, 2014 10:39:35 PM UTC+10, wrote:
> On Sunday, May 11, 2014 12:15:09 AM UTC-5, GR8 wrote:
>
> > http://www.sgp.aero/final2014.aspx
>
>
>
> - interesting to see how wing's loading was limited to 50 kg/m per square meter in favor of older ventus designs...
I think it was a direct attack on the Diana 2's... the V2/29/27's couldn't compete with it at 58kg/sqm.
Incidentally, congratulations to Didier Hauss.
Gary Ittner[_3_]
May 16th 14, 07:34 PM
> wrote :
>> - interesting to see how wing's loading was limited to 50 kg/m per square
>> meter in favor of older ventus designs...
>
> I think it was a direct attack on the Diana 2's... the V2/29/27's couldn't
> compete with it at 58kg/sqm.
The maximum certificated wing loadings for the gliders at the Sisteron Grand
Prix are:
LS 8 50.00 kg/sqm
Ventus 2 54.29 kg/sqm
ASW 27 55.56 kg/sqm
Diana 2 57.87 kg/sqm
ASG 29/15 59.80 kg/sqm
If restricting all the gliders to the same 50 kg/sqm wing loading "hurts"
the Diana 2, it hurts the ASG 29/15 even more. So how is this a direct
attact on the Diana 2 ?
Gary Ittner P7
"Have glider, will race"
On Friday, May 16, 2014 1:34:57 PM UTC-5, Gary Ittner wrote:
> > wrote : >> - interesting to see how wing's loading was limited to 50 kg/m per square >> meter in favor of older ventus designs.... > > I think it was a direct attack on the Diana 2's... the V2/29/27's couldn't > compete with it at 58kg/sqm. The maximum certificated wing loadings for the gliders at the Sisteron Grand Prix are: LS 8 50.00 kg/sqm Ventus 2 54.29 kg/sqm ASW 27 55.56 kg/sqm Diana 2 57.87 kg/sqm ASG 29/15 59.80 kg/sqm If restricting all the gliders to the same 50 kg/sqm wing loading "hurts" the Diana 2, it hurts the ASG 29/15 even more. So how is this a direct attact on the Diana 2 ? Gary Ittner P7 "Have glider, will race"
- So if Ventus design is heavier than for instance Diana 2, which glider will run better at 50 kg/sqm?
Why is there some idiotic restriction in the first place, other than to favor certain glider types?
On Friday, May 16, 2014 1:34:57 PM UTC-5, Gary Ittner wrote:
> > wrote : >> - interesting to see how wing's loading was limited to 50 kg/m per square >> meter in favor of older ventus designs.... > > I think it was a direct attack on the Diana 2's... the V2/29/27's couldn't > compete with it at 58kg/sqm. The maximum certificated wing loadings for the gliders at the Sisteron Grand Prix are: LS 8 50.00 kg/sqm Ventus 2 54.29 kg/sqm ASW 27 55.56 kg/sqm Diana 2 57.87 kg/sqm ASG 29/15 59.80 kg/sqm If restricting all the gliders to the same 50 kg/sqm wing loading "hurts" the Diana 2, it hurts the ASG 29/15 even more. So how is this a direct attact on the Diana 2 ? Gary Ittner P7 "Have glider, will race"
- So if Ventus design is heavier than for instance Diana 2, which glider will run better at 50 kg/sqm?
Why is there a restriction in the first place, other than to favor certain glider types?
Andy K
May 16th 14, 10:25 PM
On Friday, May 16, 2014 3:08:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Friday, May 16, 2014 1:34:57 PM UTC-5, Gary Ittner wrote:
>
> > > wrote : >> - interesting to see how wing's loading was limited to 50 kg/m per square >> meter in favor of older ventus designs... > > I think it was a direct attack on the Diana 2's... the V2/29/27's couldn't > compete with it at 58kg/sqm. The maximum certificated wing loadings for the gliders at the Sisteron Grand Prix are: LS 8 50.00 kg/sqm Ventus 2 54.29 kg/sqm ASW 27 55.56 kg/sqm Diana 2 57.87 kg/sqm ASG 29/15 59.80 kg/sqm If restricting all the gliders to the same 50 kg/sqm wing loading "hurts" the Diana 2, it hurts the ASG 29/15 even more. So how is this a direct attact on the Diana 2 ? Gary Ittner P7 "Have glider, will race"
>
>
>
> - So if Ventus design is heavier than for instance Diana 2, which glider will run better at 50 kg/sqm?
>
> Why is there a restriction in the first place, other than to favor certain glider types?
Does anyone know when the restriction was put in place before or after Diana 2 showed up?
Andy K
May 16th 14, 10:32 PM
On Friday, May 16, 2014 2:34:57 PM UTC-4, Gary Ittner wrote:
> > wrote :
>
>
>
> >> - interesting to see how wing's loading was limited to 50 kg/m per square
>
> >> meter in favor of older ventus designs...
>
> >
>
> > I think it was a direct attack on the Diana 2's... the V2/29/27's couldn't
>
> > compete with it at 58kg/sqm.
>
>
>
>
>
> The maximum certificated wing loadings for the gliders at the Sisteron Grand
>
> Prix are:
>
>
>
> LS 8 50.00 kg/sqm
>
>
>
> Ventus 2 54.29 kg/sqm
>
>
>
> ASW 27 55.56 kg/sqm
>
>
>
> Diana 2 57.87 kg/sqm
>
>
>
> ASG 29/15 59.80 kg/sqm
>
>
>
> If restricting all the gliders to the same 50 kg/sqm wing loading "hurts"
>
> the Diana 2, it hurts the ASG 29/15 even more. So how is this a direct
>
> attact on the Diana 2 ?
>
>
>
> Gary Ittner P7
>
> "Have glider, will race"
Not necessarily. The airfoil of Diana 2 was designed to climb very well at high wing loading. There is a Diana 2 design paper. It was a very interesting read.
Papa3[_2_]
May 16th 14, 11:13 PM
I'd look at it a bit differently. I thought that the premise of the Grand Prix was to make it about pilot vs. pilot as opposed to a pure technology race. Since the majority of gliders have to be built to survive in a broad range of uses (i.e. not just optimized for high-end racing), the rule probably makes sense if that's the context. No?
Paul T[_4_]
May 17th 14, 12:10 AM
Doesn't make much difference if you followed the race online -
you'd see that tatics played an important part in today's race.
Hauss took a significantly different line from the other guys coming
out of TP3 - Kawa was approx 100-150m below Hauss at the hill
just before Serres and delayed quite significantly following him up
to the 4th turning point, where Hauss had to climb up and over the
ridgeline to get to TP4 - then's when Hauss started to pull away..
I think Kawa has alluded in the past about about the wingloading
limit being imposed to stop the Diana romping away from the v2's ,
27 and 29's - especially in the mountains.
Simple solution - make everyone fly the same model of glider for
GP. Believe this was the idea a few years ago when the FAI
supposedly had some big media/TV guys interested in Gp's.
Maybe they ought to start linking up with some of the big players in
the gambling world?
Put them all in Duckhawks, with fancy colours?
>ASG 29/15 59.80 kg/sqm
Yes, but you can't stand it on it's tip and circle up the side of a mountain at those wingloadings in anything else. The advantage is less in the flatlands.
>Does anyone know when the restriction was put in place before or after Diana 2 showed up?
After.
Kawa had a chapter about it in his book. A snippet is on his website too.
http://skyfullofheat.com/ask-sebastian/why-diana-2/
Gary Ittner[_3_]
May 17th 14, 01:25 AM
"Andy K" > wrote:
> Not necessarily. The airfoil of Diana 2 was designed to climb very well at
> high wing loading. There is a Diana 2 design paper. It was a very
> interesting read.
Ah, I understand you. The ASG 29 airfoil was probably designed to climb
poorly at high wingloading.
The Sisteron World Grand Prix Final was not a race run according to FAI 15m
class rules, but a special race that in this case used a wing span limit of
15m and a wing loading limit of 50 kg/sqm. If the loading limit was an
attack on the Diana 2 and ASG 29 by not allowing them to use their loading
advantage over the Ventus 2, then was the span limit an attack on the Ventus
2 cxa and ASG 29 by not allowing them to use their span advantage over the
Diana 2? (Poor ASG 29; doubly attacked)
Some Grand Prix qualifying races have already been run using 18m gliders,
and I have heard a rumor that the next World Grand Prix Final may be 18m.
Will Diana 2 fans consider that a slap in the face?
If plantain and gkurek care to see a _real_ attack on the Diana 2, they
should seek out an article in Gliding International from a couple years ago,
in which former 15m European Champion Steven Raimond proposes the Diana 2 be
banned from international 15m competition and goes on to state his reasons
(note: I totally disagree with Steve's proposal, and have not heard of
anyone at the IGC seriously considering it).
Gary Ittner P7
"Have glider, will race"
On Sunday, May 11, 2014 1:15:09 AM UTC-4, GR8 wrote:
> http://www.sgp.aero/final2014.aspx
The race was won by a great french glider pilot Didier Hauss, strictly on the merits of his superior tactic and his knowledge of local weather and terrain. Gliders didn't really matter.
Andy K
May 17th 14, 03:14 AM
On Friday, May 16, 2014 8:25:53 PM UTC-4, Gary Ittner wrote:
> "Andy K" > wrote:
>
> > Not necessarily. The airfoil of Diana 2 was designed to climb very well at
>
> > high wing loading. There is a Diana 2 design paper. It was a very
>
> > interesting read.
>
>
>
>
>
> Ah, I understand you. The ASG 29 airfoil was probably designed to climb
>
> poorly at high wingloading.
>
>
>
> The Sisteron World Grand Prix Final was not a race run according to FAI 15m
>
> class rules, but a special race that in this case used a wing span limit of
>
> 15m and a wing loading limit of 50 kg/sqm. If the loading limit was an
>
> attack on the Diana 2 and ASG 29 by not allowing them to use their loading
>
> advantage over the Ventus 2, then was the span limit an attack on the Ventus
>
> 2 cxa and ASG 29 by not allowing them to use their span advantage over the
>
> Diana 2? (Poor ASG 29; doubly attacked)
>
>
>
> Some Grand Prix qualifying races have already been run using 18m gliders,
>
> and I have heard a rumor that the next World Grand Prix Final may be 18m.
>
> Will Diana 2 fans consider that a slap in the face?
>
>
>
> If plantain and gkurek care to see a _real_ attack on the Diana 2, they
>
> should seek out an article in Gliding International from a couple years ago,
>
> in which former 15m European Champion Steven Raimond proposes the Diana 2 be
>
> banned from international 15m competition and goes on to state his reasons
>
> (note: I totally disagree with Steve's proposal, and have not heard of
>
> anyone at the IGC seriously considering it).
>
>
>
> Gary Ittner P7
>
> "Have glider, will race"
Gary, please don't quote me and then bring up an attack on Diana 2 in the same response as I had not made such statements.
The race was won by the better pilot and there is no doubt about it.
On Saturday, May 17, 2014 10:25:53 AM UTC+10, Gary Ittner wrote:
> "Andy K" > wrote:
>
> > Not necessarily. The airfoil of Diana 2 was designed to climb very well at
>
> > high wing loading. There is a Diana 2 design paper. It was a very
>
> > interesting read.
>
> Ah, I understand you. The ASG 29 airfoil was probably designed to climb
>
> poorly at high wingloading.
>
Or alternatively, the Diana 2 was designed to achieve superb climbing performance.
Page 3 onwards - http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showatt.php?attachmentid=3774296
Le dimanche 11 mai 2014 01:15:09 UTC-4, GR8 a écrit*:
> http://www.sgp.aero/final2014.aspx
Hi
On the last day I watch the race for a while and notice the old LS8 was at par
with all those flap sailplane??? The choic of route was/is very important. Maybe those pilot are good in any ship
Gilles
Perhaps the most important bit.....
Thanks, Gilles.
On Saturday, May 17, 2014 6:31:20 AM UTC-7, s6 wrote:
>
Maybe those pilot are good in any ship
>
> Gilles
W dniu sobota, 17 maja 2014 03:14:59 UTC+2 użytkownik GR8 napisał:
> On Sunday, May 11, 2014 1:15:09 AM UTC-4, GR8 wrote:
>
> > http://www.sgp.aero/final2014.aspx
>
>
>
> The race was won by a great french glider pilot Didier Hauss, strictly on the merits of his superior tactic and his knowledge of local weather and terrain. Gliders didn't really matter.
knowledge of local weather and terrain - yes, it was crucial
Didier is good, but Sebastian is better - last SGP qualifying (18m class):
http://www.soaringspot.com/grandprixzar2013/results/mixed/day-by-day.html
The Sebastian advantage on his area was much greater than in Didier's on Final SGP
Bruce Taylor is underrated - he deserved at least a podium.
Piotr Szafranski
May 18th 14, 04:12 PM
Well, first let's congratulate Didier for his win. It was great to follow these races. Didier was clearly flying all-out, taking risks and sometimes paying the price. Sebastian writes in his blog http://www.sebastiankawa.pl/6039/kolejny-medal-mistrzostw-swiata/ :"(...) Didier had shown he is at his own backyard and there is no better competitor".
During 17th EGC (18m) the previous year Didier was repeatedly making bold/unorthodox tactical moves as well, he was not flying just do defend his position, making the show great for everybody. We are lucky there are so many individualistic pilots up there in the rankings to watch.
About the 50kg/m2 limit: 6 Ventus gliders out of 8 total placed in top 8.
The 50kg/m2 rule seems to favor Ventus most (LS 8 aside). Hard to dismiss the possibility that the 50kg/m2 rule favors some gliders over the other, skewing the "pure design" comparisons.
Tony[_5_]
May 18th 14, 04:34 PM
I'd like to see a one design grand Prix. No excuses. My vote is for PW5's.
> If plantain and gkurek care to see a _real_ attack on the Diana 2, they
>
> should seek out an article in Gliding International from a couple years ago,
>
> in which former 15m European Champion Steven Raimond proposes the Diana 2 be
>
> banned from international 15m competition and goes on to state his reasons
>
> (note: I totally disagree with Steve's proposal, and have not heard of
>
> anyone at the IGC seriously considering it).
- I never stated it was a "real attack" on any particular glider type. My point is pure simple: if FAI has a 15 meter class definition in place, it is not fair to come out with the affirmative action loupe. Im actually looking forward to seeing Duckhawk competing against all these types mentioned above, hopefully no disadvancing proposal gains support then.
Craig Funston
May 19th 14, 06:18 AM
On Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:34:14 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> I'd like to see a one design grand Prix. No excuses. My vote is for PW5's.
C'mon Tony, go all the way. GAPAs....
Craig
Nice one, Tony.
My Australian club - Lake Keepit - has hosted quite a few GP races. Mostly 18m, but some others like the recent Open Class GP. Retiring the Junior, there are now 2 new PW5s as early solo machines. A good location for the first in your race series.
It would need to fit in the current schedule. There's a "Mini Grand Prix" scheduled 5th to 8th of September, and the Australian Qualifying Grand Prix 16-22 November.
The club fleet, including the basic single seaters, are all for rent during the week.
keepitsoaring.com
Jim
On Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:34:14 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> I'd like to see a one design grand Prix. No excuses. My vote is for PW5's.
Tom Claffey
May 21st 14, 09:26 AM
Give me a break!
GP is designed to be a spectacle for the public, showcasing the best.
The move to 18m will even out any anomalies (diana2) between gliders.
I am not adverse to one design, just pick ASG29, Ventus3, JS1 or similar
instead of the abject failure of the PW5!
Tom
At 05:18 19 May 2014, Craig Funston wrote:
>On Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:34:14 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
>> I'd like to see a one design grand Prix. No excuses. My vote is for
>PW5's.
>
>C'mon Tony, go all the way. GAPAs....
>
>Craig
>
Tom Claffey
May 21st 14, 09:40 AM
Another issue with the Diana2 (looking earlier in the thread it is a
subject
that came up) is that Sebastian was not happy ridge running on the strong
Northerly days. He had to slow down due to the speed on the ridges while
the
rest of us just put the stick further forward. He was vocal that it was
"unfair",
but it is "horses for courses", the Diana has an advantage most of the
time,
just not in this case.
Tom (first across the line on said strong ridge day)!
05:18 19 May 2014, Craig Funston wrote:
>On Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:34:14 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
>> I'd like to see a one design grand Prix. No excuses. My vote is for
>PW5's.
>
>C'mon Tony, go all the way. GAPAs....
>
>Craig
>
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