Where do new Tug Pilots come from?

[son_of_flubber]

I tow behind several excellent tug pilots in their 70's, one who is 84, and several 'young' tug pilots who are in their 50s.

Where is the next generation of Tug Pilots? Do pilots suddenly take up towing gliders in their 50's-60's? (perhaps when they retire from the military?)

[WAVEGURU]

We've got a 22 year old that went to Embry-Riddle.

Boggs

[[email protected]]

We have several that are fresh out of their teens.

[Piet Barber]

> Where is the next generation of Tug Pilots? Do pilots suddenly take up towing gliders in their 50's-60's? (perhaps when they retire from the military?)

We had to get a Husky. One of many reasons for doing so was so we could do checkouts and training and get some guys good enough with tail-draggers. We had enough guys who already were commercial ASEL with no tail-dragger time.

Before we got the Husky, it's damned near impossible to find somebody with a commercial rating and taildragger endorsement, and be willing to tow on the good soaring days.

[son_of_flubber]

A Aviat Husky is a two seat tail dragger suitable for tugging.

On Thursday, May 22, 2014 1:55:14 PM UTC-4, Piet Barber wrote:

> We had to get a Husky. One of many reasons for doing so was so we could do checkouts and training and get some guys good enough with tail-draggers. We had enough guys who already were commercial ASEL with no tail-dragger time.

> Before we got the Husky, it's damned near impossible to find somebody with a commercial rating and taildragger endorsement, and be willing to tow on the good soaring days.

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

Look for the "real" pilots, young or old. The aviators with the passion and the "one with the airplane" skills. Reward them realistically. Pay them well and guarantee a minimum number of tows each day as part of their job description. Make sure they are fully hydrated and properly nourished. Fatigue and boredom can be a problem. Praise them for a good tow and for their safe flying. Buy dinner for the pilots who clean the bugs off the wings and prop, for those pilots are the ones who understand aerodynamics. Dessert if they clean the fuselage belly every day.

I grew up on my father's gliderport in Florida with Cubs as towplanes.
I became very proficient in tailwheel airplanes and I have not groundlooped or nosed over YET.

So when I had my glider operation in Miami and now in Marfa, Texas, and since I am rarely flying the towplane, I chose tricycle gear towplanes, "straight tail" '58 / '59 Cessna 182's and a Cessna 150 with a 180 HP Lycoming (and a "climb" pitch prop.) They tow well and are cheaper to purchase, to maintain and the replacement parts are plentiful. Insurance is less expensive and I have a large pool of potential towpilots. Tricycle gear towplanes are generally safer and less expensive to operate and I'm more comfortable with those priorities than a few more feet of rate of climb in a Cub, Husky or Pawnee.

Tricycle gear towplanes can better handle the crosswind gusts and dustdevils we endure out west (obviously good soaring days!) They can handle grass runways if not too rough. (If it is rough, roll it or grade it and make it smooth.)

Towing sailplanes with tailwheel or tricycle gear towplanes is very risky business and is only as safe as the towpilot and the sailplane pilot make it..
Pilot proficiency (not just currency) on both ends of the towrope is essential.

Regarding checkouts, I find some potential towpilots who look outside only 50% of the time. These tend to be younger pilots who are looking down at the instruments. If they don't modify their behavior they do not receive an endorsement from me, even if they learned to fly at Embry-Riddle or have 20,000 hours flying jets. If they do not exhibit basic situational awareness or cannot fly coordinated, I'm simply not impressed with their logbook or their expensive degree in "aeronautics." Isn't "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche or Richard Bach's short story "A School For Perfection" required reading at those schools?

On initial towpilot checkouts or recurrency endorsement flights, some don't realize that you control towing airspeed by holding a steady pitch of the nose rather than chasing the airspeed indicator and few bother to clear their turns. Many cannot accomplish the wing-rock and rudder waggle signals and few have bothered to study the signals at all, thinking that a radio call will be sufficient. Some are not familiar with the FAR 61.69 mandatory 24 month recurrency requirements. Some are bored, hungry and thirsty because we often treat towpliots like ski lift operators . . . just get me up there. Many do not comply with the VFR 30 minute fuel requirement for airplanes. There are more unreported towplane fuel starvation incidents than you can imagine (most glide safely back to the airport, if high enough.)

As club managers, think about what's really involved in cultivating safe towpilots.

Towpilot intital endorsement requirements per FAR 61.69 (along with 24 month recurrency endorsements) are simple but unrealistic. Demand recurrent training beyond the minimums to proficiency and do not tolerate aggressive diving of the towplane after the glider releases. (That's hard on the towplane and has proven fatal to those aircraft below the release altitude.) Yes, I have fired "rogue" towpliots who dove my towplanes aggressively and I lost money when I cancelled flying for the day.

I make decisions based primarily on safety. Convenience, "fun", the pursuit of the dollar are lower priorities. Safety is a long-term commitment to a thoughtful culture. A "safety stand-down" is a realistic option in aviation.

Tricycle gear or tailwheel towplane or winch . . . demand proficiency and never say it's a "piece of cake."

Burt Compton
47 years since solo and still alive.

Author of "The Towpilot Manual"
available at www.bobwander.com

Marfa Gliders Soaring Center, west Texas
USA

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, May 22, 2014 3:35:29 PM UTC-4, Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas wrote:

>Isn't "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche or Richard Bach's short story "A School For Perfection" required reading at those schools?

Last Sunday, right after his first glider lesson, I overheard a 12 y.o. spouting something that he had read in "Stick and Rudder". There's hope.

[Echo]

On Thursday, May 22, 2014 10:06:48 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I tow behind several excellent tug pilots in their 70's, one who is 84, and several 'young' tug pilots who are in their 50s.
>
>
>
> Where is the next generation of Tug Pilots? Do pilots suddenly take up towing gliders in their 50's-60's? (perhaps when they retire from the military?)

I was towing at Perry R5N when I was 23, but I also grew up at New Castle, didn't even know what a tricycle gear plane was as a kid. Traded it all in for an ASW20. There are plenty more behind me from BRSS, JP Stewart and Colin Anderson to name two who will be towing in short order (if you can ever pry them out of the club glass)

E

[[email protected]]

Airline guy here. ~8000 tt, 25yrs of mostly un-logged time in family's J-3, seaplane, 10yrs glider, instr certs, etc.

Would enjoy to tow sometimes. Some of days off are spent where I'm based, but local club memberships have become expensive, especially for a part timer like myself. I'm just not going to pay $1000 first yr and $500/yr thereafter to tow every now and then.

Local fee schedule where I'm based:

(Q) How much does it cost?
(A) At the bottom of the page you will find a fee schedule for membership. Regular membership dues are $40/month. Cost to join is $504.00. This includes a $200 initiation fee, a $200.00 deposit (refundable upon resignation in good standing), $40 first months dues, and $64 for membership in the SSA (insurance requirement). You can add family members for $50.00 plus the SSA membership of $64.00. If you are a visiting pilot from another club you can get a 14 day membership for $30.00. Aircraft rental prices and aero tow prices are on the fee schedule.

The place I use close to home has 0 fees other than rental, however, there are a surplus of tow guys there... Any connection?

Hunter

[Bill T]

We train ours.
Members who have at least Private Pilot ASEL and at least 200 hrs PIC and a glider rating may volunteer for tow training.
We have access to a C-170, before that it was a Scout or Citabria.
The tow candidate must pay his way to a tailwheel endorsement. Normally that means buy the fuel.
The tow candidate must invest some time to take the SSF tow pilot course, read the books, and study our tow ops manual.
We have to like the way he behaves on airport and how he flies gliders.
Instructor review of logbook, certificates, medical, aircraft POH and ops manual.
We tow with a Pawnee, if all above passes muster he gets some "simulated" tows in the C-170.
He get gets a cockpit check in the Pawnee and monitored while he completes at least 10 full stop landings.
His last three takeoffs are at reduced power to simulate the climb pitch angle and climb rate with a glider behind.
His first three actual tows are with a glider instructor in our heaviest glider. Normal tow, beginning student wild tow and a controlled tow with box wake and slack line maneuvers, and a pattern tow.
His first few days towing is monitored by other tow pilots and glider instructors.

BillT

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, May 23, 2014 10:25:32 PM UTC-4, Bill T wrote:

> His first three actual tows are with a glider instructor in our heaviest glider. Normal tow, beginning student wild tow and a controlled tow with box wake and slack line maneuvers, and a pattern tow.

I'm not a tow pilot. I wonder why you don't make the first tow easy and ramp up from there. Why not make the first tow with a 1-26 on a long runway?

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, May 23, 2014 10:25:32 PM UTC-4, Bill T wrote:

> Members who have at least Private Pilot ASEL and at least 200 hrs PIC and a glider rating may volunteer for tow training.

I have a glider rating only. One (apparently sane) two-seat-tail-dragger-owning top-shelf CFI offered to train me to be a tug pilot, including all the training for my power rating and my training as an actual tow pilot. I'd buy the fuel.

At the time, I was (and still am) too busy climbing the soaring proficiency learning curve.

That CFI would certainly know my capabilities very well before ever I got close to the Pawnee's stick. I guess he liked the idea of starting with a glider pilot. A clean slate. No habits or preconceptions.

This sounds like the approach used (naturally) at BRSS with JP Stewart and Colin Anderson... start with a solid glider pilot and add-on the other stuff.

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, May 23, 2014 10:05:52 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Airline guy here. ~8000 tt, 25yrs of mostly un-logged time in family's J-3, seaplane, 10yrs glider, instr certs, etc.
>
>
>
> Would enjoy to tow sometimes. Some of days off are spent where I'm based, but local club memberships have become expensive...

I agree that club fee structures might discourage an airline pilot from occasionally towing on his days off.

My favorite tug pilots are well rested, have towed gliders on all of the good weather days in the last two weeks (at least), have done thousands of tows at our rotor and sink afflicted, short field, tree-lined airport, and have towed lots of different good and poor-performing glider pilots in a variety of glider types.

That's the ideal (rare but possible) and of course I have to be willing to compromise. If I were writing a club policy, I'd try to encourage the journeyman pilots who were happy to tow (even with the CUs popping), and who were available to tow often and on a regular basis.

[[email protected]]

In our clubs case we require our tow pilots to join the SSA and that's it as far as out of pocket expenses for them providing they qualify with the insurance to fly our C-182A towplane. We have no requirement for them to pay the initiation or monthly dues. If they tow for a certain number of hours then they get an hour of time in the clubs L-23. Most of our tow pilots don't take us up on that offer. It seems to me that requiring tow pilots to pay the clubs monthly dues is a recipe for having not enough tow pilots.

[[email protected]]

We train ours.
Members who have at least Private Pilot ASEL and at least 200 hrs PIC and a glider rating may volunteer for tow training.
We have access to a C-170, before that it was a Scout or Citabria.
The tow candidate must pay his way to a tailwheel endorsement. Normally that means buy the fuel.
The tow candidate must invest some time to take the SSF tow pilot course, read the books, and study our tow ops manual.
We have to like the way he behaves on airport and how he flies gliders.
Instructor review of logbook, certificates, medical, aircraft POH and ops manual.
We tow with a Pawnee, if all above passes muster he gets some "simulated" tows in the C-170.
He get gets a cockpit check in the Pawnee and monitored while he completes at least 10 full stop landings.
His last three takeoffs are at reduced power to simulate the climb pitch angle and climb rate with a glider behind.
His first three actual tows are with a glider instructor in our heaviest glider. Normal tow, beginning student wild tow and a controlled tow with box wake and slack line maneuvers, and a pattern tow.
His first few days towing is monitored by other tow pilots and glider instructors.

BillT

____________________________________

Member dues (I'm assuming), pay for training, invest time and energy, simulation, pilot monitoring, fly for free... and on your schedule. That's it?
Where do I sign up!

Bill, you're perfect for airline mgmt. Oh wait, do I already work for you? ;)

No offense meant of course, just for fun

Hunter

[[email protected]]

We train ours.
Members who have at least Private Pilot ASEL and at least 200 hrs PIC and a glider rating may volunteer for tow training.
We have access to a C-170, before that it was a Scout or Citabria.
The tow candidate must pay his way to a tailwheel endorsement. Normally that means buy the fuel.
The tow candidate must invest some time to take the SSF tow pilot course, read the books, and study our tow ops manual.
We have to like the way he behaves on airport and how he flies gliders.
Instructor review of logbook, certificates, medical, aircraft POH and ops manual.
We tow with a Pawnee, if all above passes muster he gets some "simulated" tows in the C-170.
He get gets a cockpit check in the Pawnee and monitored while he completes at least 10 full stop landings.
His last three takeoffs are at reduced power to simulate the climb pitch angle and climb rate with a glider behind.
His first three actual tows are with a glider instructor in our heaviest glider. Normal tow, beginning student wild tow and a controlled tow with box wake and slack line maneuvers, and a pattern tow.
His first few days towing is monitored by other tow pilots and glider instructors.

BillT

____________________________________

Min qualification, member dues (I'm assuming), pay for training, rigourous training course, simulation, reduced power (flex) takeoffs, pilot monitoring, fly for free... and on your schedule. That's it?
Where do I sign up!

Bill, you're perfect for airline mgmt. Oh wait, do I already work for you? ;)

No offense meant of course, just for fun

Hunter

[[email protected]]

We train ours.
Members who have at least Private Pilot ASEL and at least 200 hrs PIC and a glider rating may volunteer for tow training.
We have access to a C-170, before that it was a Scout or Citabria.
The tow candidate must pay his way to a tailwheel endorsement. Normally that means buy the fuel.
The tow candidate must invest some time to take the SSF tow pilot course, read the books, and study our tow ops manual.
We have to like the way he behaves on airport and how he flies gliders.
Instructor review of logbook, certificates, medical, aircraft POH and ops manual.
We tow with a Pawnee, if all above passes muster he gets some "simulated" tows in the C-170.
He get gets a cockpit check in the Pawnee and monitored while he completes at least 10 full stop landings.
His last three takeoffs are at reduced power to simulate the climb pitch angle and climb rate with a glider behind.
His first three actual tows are with a glider instructor in our heaviest glider. Normal tow, beginning student wild tow and a controlled tow with box wake and slack line maneuvers, and a pattern tow.
His first few days towing is monitored by other tow pilots and glider instructors.

BillT

____________________________________

Min qualification, member dues (I'm assuming), pay for training, rigourous training course, simulation, reduced power (flex) takeoffs, pilot monitoring, fly for free, held to high standards,... and on your schedule. That's it?
Where do I sign up!

Bill, you're perfect for airline mgmt. Oh wait, do I already work for you? ;)

No offense meant of course, just for fun

Hunter

[Bill T]

We have an open pilot policy with our insurance. Because of our training program and monitoring, low time pilots do not have to be "named" pilots on our policy.
Previously it required 200 hrs power, 100hrs tailwheel and 25 hrs Pawnee to qualify on the open policy. Try to find pilots with previous Pawnee time, not many around, so all new pilots were "named" until they for 100hrs tailwheel and 25 hrs Pawnee. Now we don't have to do that.

You have to run a club like a business. I liked your comments about airline mgmt, I'm not one, but AF trained.
BillT

[Bill T]

The Pawnee does not even know a 1-26 is in tow. It would be a wasted flight.
BillT

[Dave Nadler]

On Thursday, May 22, 2014 11:06:48 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Where do new Tug Pilots come from?

Storks!

[Dan Marotta]

....except that the 1-26 pilot could provide any necessary critique after
the tow.

Dan Marotta 5J

On 5/24/2014 7:06 PM, Bill T wrote:
> The Pawnee does not even know a 1-26 is in tow. It would be a wasted flight.
> BillT

[[email protected]]

And a properly done 1-26 tow is a SLOW tow, not what a heavy glass bird would need. You need to be able to tow both ends of the envelope.

Kevin
192

[Bill T]

With our Pawnee, recommend 1 notch of flaps and climb at 55KIAS. Result is over 1,000fpm climb rate PLUS thermal effect. The glider vario is pegged for the entire tow. Except for possible "seat of the pants" clue that the glider is in a thermal, the glider pilot never knows when to release except on the word of the tow pilot.

Yes, the Grob 103 with 2 up is no flap and 65KIAS.

BillT