New Generation Vario's

[Richard Frawley]

All,


I am seeking contact with anyone who has recent experience with the any of
the latest generation of Vario (Butterfly, LX7, etc etc).


They do seem to full of many features that I will never use (apart from the
noise and the wiggly bit, I really only used a couple of things (wind and
final glide as a backup) on the 302 I was using in the Mozzie) as I find the
Oudie more than adequate for 'Compute' tasks.


Do the new devices add any value in things like gust rejection or wind
accuracy or anything that you find of personal value.


Am looking to possibly replace some older kit in an LS8 I am acquiring.


Regards


Richard

[Tim Taylor]

Richard,

I fly with a V7 and still have a 302 as well. The 302 is 99% as good as the V7. Unless you are racing I actually prefer the 302. It has better tones and of course has the logger as well. Why is the V7 1% better? It does have a better gust filter, so a few times a day it filters out false thermal the 302 does not.

If I was not racing I would buy a 302, it is a great value.

[Richard[_9_]]

On Thursday, May 22, 2014 10:23:18 PM UTC-7, Richard Frawley wrote:
> All,
>
>
>
>
>
> I am seeking contact with anyone who has recent experience with the any of
>
> the latest generation of Vario (Butterfly, LX7, etc etc).
>
>
>
>
>
> They do seem to full of many features that I will never use (apart from the
>
> noise and the wiggly bit, I really only used a couple of things (wind and
>
> final glide as a backup) on the 302 I was using in the Mozzie) as I find the
>
> Oudie more than adequate for 'Compute' tasks.
>
>
>
>
>
> Do the new devices add any value in things like gust rejection or wind
>
> accuracy or anything that you find of personal value.
>
>
>
>
>
> Am looking to possibly replace some older kit in an LS8 I am acquiring.
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
>
>
> Richard

Richard,

I have both the V7 and the Butterfly Vario in my glider. I have approximately 300 hours flying with both. I also compared the V7 to the 302 several years ago and found the V7 was a much superior vario. The 302 showed false thermals approximately 20% of the time.

I also sell both the V7 and the Butterfly.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[jfitch]

On Thursday, May 22, 2014 10:23:18 PM UTC-7, Richard Frawley wrote:
> All,
>
>
>
>
>
> I am seeking contact with anyone who has recent experience with the any of
>
> the latest generation of Vario (Butterfly, LX7, etc etc).
>
>
>
>
>
> They do seem to full of many features that I will never use (apart from the
>
> noise and the wiggly bit, I really only used a couple of things (wind and
>
> final glide as a backup) on the 302 I was using in the Mozzie) as I find the
>
> Oudie more than adequate for 'Compute' tasks.
>
>
>
>
>
> Do the new devices add any value in things like gust rejection or wind
>
> accuracy or anything that you find of personal value.
>
>
>
>
>
> Am looking to possibly replace some older kit in an LS8 I am acquiring.
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
>
>
> Richard

I have flown the last two seasons with the Butterfly, prior 10+ seasons with 302. I am a lover of technology for its own sake, and always poke around in the feature set. The Butterfly (and PowerFlarm) make a spectacular in-flight entertainment system. Functionally, the Vario seems to be a little quicker than the 302. The useful addition is inertially derived air mass movement which has two consequences: instantaneous wind, and instantaneous netto (by instantaneous I mean 20 times a second). The former gives you a much better picture of thermal structure (including the ability to center based on wind) and much quicker knowledge of shear conditions. Flying in the western mountains this has been enlightening. The latter helps to understand gust behavior, but I am still learning what to do with it.

If you are not a lover of technology for its own sake, and find the rather high price tag...well, rather high, then stick with the 302 - it works fine.. In fact I didn't have much problem flying with the red and green pellet - after all it does 90% of what a modern vario does.

[Soartech]

> The 302 showed false thermals approximately 20% of the time.

Richard (or anyone); I fly with a common total-energy vario. Please tell us what you mean by a "false thermal". Is this just a short duration signal or something else?
Thank you.

[Richard[_9_]]

On Friday, May 23, 2014 9:44:19 AM UTC-7, Soartech wrote:
> > The 302 showed false thermals approximately 20% of the time.
>
>
>
> Richard (or anyone); I fly with a common total-energy vario. Please tell us what you mean by a "false thermal". Is this just a short duration signal or something else?
>
> Thank you.

The CAI 302 to me in the relative cruise mode would show lift that I would turn to center and no lift. Probably a gust.

Richard

[Nick Kennedy]

I agree with Tim Taylor comments. I'm a long time user of the CAI 302.

I've heard some complaints that the software in the 302 was never updated.
Well I've never had a 302 Lock up, change settings all by itself, or switch to bluetooth because the lunar pull.
The 302 worked great form the get go and still does, IMHO

I think Richard from Craggy may have been getting false thermal indications because the TE setting in his CAI 302 was off for his particular glider.
The TE is easily adjustable.
BUT to do this and check it in flight you have to get the 302 to switch to CLIMB mode while cruising; this requires a switch installed, as the 302 automatically switches from Climb mode to cruise mode in straight flight.
You connect a simple switch to a couple of pins and you force the 302 to stay in climb mode, do some high speed zooms in calm air and you can see the TE compensation and then easily adjust it in flight.

Mike Borgelt and others have written quite a bit on what your looking for as far a TE compensation in your instruments and how to check them. This stuff is well worth reading if your not sure exactly how TE works and how it should be interfacing with your vario.


The 302 also has a option of pure electronic TE; you do not need a probe. I used this setting on my Twin Astir and it worked super good.

[Richard Frawley]

On Friday, 23 May 2014 09:15:40 UTC-4, Tim Taylor wrote:
> Richard,
>
>
>
> I fly with a V7 and still have a 302 as well. The 302 is 99% as good as the V7. Unless you are racing I actually prefer the 302. It has better tones and of course has the logger as well. Why is the V7 1% better? It does have a better gust filter, so a few times a day it filters out false thermal the 302 does not.
>
>
>
> If I was not racing I would buy a 302, it is a great value.

Thanks Tim, thats good feedback.

[Richard Frawley]

Hi,

I was also looking between the Butterfly and the new S80.

Hard to filter thru all the guff, as to what the extra value is in the BF given is a lot more $$$. Any perspective on that.

Seems the extra value in the S80 over the v7 is just the larger screen and AH (which I cant use here legally), is that correct. I understand that they are the same (from a vario perspective) internally.

Richard

[Richard[_9_]]

On Friday, May 23, 2014 2:38:35 PM UTC-7, Richard Frawley wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I was also looking between the Butterfly and the new S80.
>
>
>
> Hard to filter thru all the guff, as to what the extra value is in the BF given is a lot more $$$. Any perspective on that.
>
>
>
> Seems the extra value in the S80 over the v7 is just the larger screen and AH (which I cant use here legally), is that correct. I understand that they are the same (from a vario perspective) internally.
>
>
>
> Richard

It also has inertial sensors and a tasking system

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Richard[_9_]]

On Friday, May 23, 2014 2:16:58 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> I agree with Tim Taylor comments. I'm a long time user of the CAI 302.
>
>
>
> I've heard some complaints that the software in the 302 was never updated..
>
> Well I've never had a 302 Lock up, change settings all by itself, or switch to bluetooth because the lunar pull.
>
> The 302 worked great form the get go and still does, IMHO
>
>
>
> I think Richard from Craggy may have been getting false thermal indications because the TE setting in his CAI 302 was off for his particular glider.
>
> The TE is easily adjustable.
>
> BUT to do this and check it in flight you have to get the 302 to switch to CLIMB mode while cruising; this requires a switch installed, as the 302 automatically switches from Climb mode to cruise mode in straight flight.
>
> You connect a simple switch to a couple of pins and you force the 302 to stay in climb mode, do some high speed zooms in calm air and you can see the TE compensation and then easily adjust it in flight.
>
>
>
> Mike Borgelt and others have written quite a bit on what your looking for as far a TE compensation in your instruments and how to check them. This stuff is well worth reading if your not sure exactly how TE works and how it should be interfacing with your vario.
>
>
>
>
>
> The 302 also has a option of pure electronic TE; you do not need a probe.. I used this setting on my Twin Astir and it worked super good.

Nick,

The CAI worked fine in the climb mode. The Cruise mode in my opinion it was showing false thermals.

Richard

[Richard Frawley]

The 302 went with the sale of the Mozzie. So it's a greenfield decision.

We fly a lot of blue days here (not too many mountains in Australia) often with variable wind. Instantaneous wind is very useful for turning accurately into wind to track the gravel line to thermal. Over a racing task every second saved counts!

Good feedback, thanks



n Friday, 23 May 2014 12:44:19 UTC-4, Soartech wrote:
> > The 302 showed false thermals approximately 20% of the time.
>
>
>
> Richard (or anyone); I fly with a common total-energy vario. Please tell us what you mean by a "false thermal". Is this just a short duration signal or something else?
>
> Thank you.

[Luke Szczepaniak]

On 05/23/2014 5:34 PM, Richard Frawley wrote:
> On Friday, 23 May 2014 09:15:40 UTC-4, Tim Taylor wrote:
>> Richard,
>>
>>
>>
>> I fly with a V7 and still have a 302 as well. The 302 is 99% as good as the V7. Unless you are racing I actually prefer the 302. It has better tones and of course has the logger as well. Why is the V7 1% better? It does have a better gust filter, so a few times a day it filters out false thermal the 302 does not.
>>
>>
>>
>> If I was not racing I would buy a 302, it is a great value.
>
> Thanks Tim, thats good feedback.
>

Hi Richard, I also fly with a V7 and a 302. I think a lot of our
opinions are based on previous experience so bear that in mind when
reading replies :). Most of my flying has been with LX instruments and
I prefer the V7 audio tones over the 302. If you're used to and like
the CAI 302 then you may prefer the CnV.

Having flown with the gust filter for the last two seasons it is
"almost" a must have feature. I think it filters out closer to 5% of
false tries rather than 1% but Tim probably has a better feel for the
air than I do so YMMV. The vario works great out of the box but can
also be tweaked extensively to your liking . I can not comment on the
other new varios (Butterfly, CNV) as I have not flown with those.

The V7 has a built in FLARM display. When connected to a FLARM source
it will give you the standard LED circle display fo both FLAMR and
P-CAS* targets (*Powerflarm has a bug to work out with P-CAS data on the
DB9 connector but from what I hear the fix is already available in a
beta FW). Additionally the V7 can be configured to give you spoken
traffic advisories (traffic 12 0'clock high etc..) which makes it more
useful then a beep that makes you focus on the display and then back out
of the cockpit.

Luke Szczepaniak

[jfitch]

On Monday, May 26, 2014 7:14:26 AM UTC-7, Luke Szczepaniak wrote:
> On 05/23/2014 5:34 PM, Richard Frawley wrote:
>
> > On Friday, 23 May 2014 09:15:40 UTC-4, Tim Taylor wrote:
>
> >> Richard,
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> I fly with a V7 and still have a 302 as well. The 302 is 99% as good as the V7. Unless you are racing I actually prefer the 302. It has better tones and of course has the logger as well. Why is the V7 1% better? It does have a better gust filter, so a few times a day it filters out false thermal the 302 does not.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> If I was not racing I would buy a 302, it is a great value.
>
> >
>
> > Thanks Tim, thats good feedback.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Hi Richard, I also fly with a V7 and a 302. I think a lot of our
>
> opinions are based on previous experience so bear that in mind when
>
> reading replies :). Most of my flying has been with LX instruments and
>
> I prefer the V7 audio tones over the 302. If you're used to and like
>
> the CAI 302 then you may prefer the CnV.
>
>
>
> Having flown with the gust filter for the last two seasons it is
>
> "almost" a must have feature. I think it filters out closer to 5% of
>
> false tries rather than 1% but Tim probably has a better feel for the
>
> air than I do so YMMV. The vario works great out of the box but can
>
> also be tweaked extensively to your liking . I can not comment on the
>
> other new varios (Butterfly, CNV) as I have not flown with those.
>
>
>
> The V7 has a built in FLARM display. When connected to a FLARM source
>
> it will give you the standard LED circle display fo both FLAMR and
>
> P-CAS* targets (*Powerflarm has a bug to work out with P-CAS data on the
>
> DB9 connector but from what I hear the fix is already available in a
>
> beta FW). Additionally the V7 can be configured to give you spoken
>
> traffic advisories (traffic 12 0'clock high etc..) which makes it more
>
> useful then a beep that makes you focus on the display and then back out
>
> of the cockpit.
>
>
>
> Luke Szczepaniak

That is a good point about the warning interface on modern various. I had too many buzzers in my glider, when a buzzer sounded you could spend quite a long time figuring out exactly what it meant. Now with my Butterfly Vario, a clear, attractive (!) voice says " LANDING GEAR NOT EXTENDED", or "TRAFFIC, 12 0'CLOCK, HIGH". Its hard to mistake that kind of warning.

[[email protected]]

I have a 302, a CN vario, and a V9 installed here and there so can compare these. I'm also very fussy about varios, as the CN people will attest.

The 302 is a very very good vario. But it's not in production and it's not as robust as the new ones. It has to be set up right and properly compensated.

Like all these varios it does not like leaks, it does not like flow varios on the same circuit, and it wants the pressures all coming from the same place, not the probe. If you have leaks, flow varios connected together, or you're not using pitot, static, and TE from the probe all these varios will disappoint.

The CN vario is also very very good. The first generation of the filtering software was, in my opinion, a bit better than 302. The second generation (last summer) removed a lot of bugs, but was a step backward in filtering, especially in strong weather and full of water. Now that the navigation stuff is behind them, I gather CN is working again on filtering. Frequent software updates and active development is a plus.

The V9 is a great vario out of the box. The filtering is excellent. It too needs to be set up right and correctly compensated.

It has one big downside for me so far. Where the CN and 302 vario are set up that "2 knots up" means "2 knots up" in both speed command and climb mode, the V9 tones in speed command are set to correspond to horizontal speed differences not vertical ones. It uses somehting like the same tone for "10 knots fast" that it does for "2 knots up." But in a modern glider, the speed to fly is much more sensitive to the lift value. So, bottom line, the tones swing around in speed command mode much more than they do in climb mode. Where this is a problem is when you slow down and sniff around but haven't decided to climb. In speed mode, you'll hear garbage, much too optimistic in lift. So, you have to set it up to switch to climb mode at about 70 knots.

All of these varios have hardware in them that could allow for amazing things, not yet implemented in software.

John Cochrane

[[email protected]]

How do the V7 / V9 display Netto information? Can you setup a switch?

[[email protected]]

I am on my second season with a V7. Like John I experience less than 100 percent satisfaction as I slow back into the "sniffing around" speeds. Speed to fly actions and tones are excellent when running flat out. When feeling the need to stop and thermal I find myself using my secondary mechanical vario more than I previously did. As a fix I installed a switch near my trim knob and convenient to my left hand. I switch to climb mode manually when transitioning to "I need a thermal" mode of thinking. Downside is this puts LK 8000 in climb mode also as I have the PNA and V7 synced. This throws off my Task Stats in the LK8000.

All said I do love my V7.

Lane
XF

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 16:49 26 May 2014, wrote:
>
>I have a 302, a CN vario, and a V9 installed here and there so
can compare
>=
>these. I'm also very fussy about varios, as the CN people will
attest.=20
>
>The 302 is a very very good vario. But it's not in production
and it's not
>=
>as robust as the new ones. It has to be set up right and
properly
>compensat=
>ed.=20
>
>Like all these varios it does not like leaks, it does not like
flow varios
>=
>on the same circuit, and it wants the pressures all coming
from the same
>pl=
>ace, not the probe. If you have leaks, flow varios connected
together, or
>y=
>ou're not using pitot, static, and TE from the probe all these
varios will
>=
>disappoint.=20
>
>The CN vario is also very very good. The first generation of
the filtering
>=
>software was, in my opinion, a bit better than 302. The
second generation
>(=
>last summer) removed a lot of bugs, but was a step backward
in filtering,
>e=
>specially in strong weather and full of water. Now that the
navigation
>stuf=
>f is behind them, I gather CN is working again on filtering.
Frequent
>softw=
>are updates and active development is a plus.=20
>
>The V9 is a great vario out of the box. The filtering is
excellent. It too
>=
>needs to be set up right and correctly compensated.=20
>
>It has one big downside for me so far. Where the CN and 302
vario are set
>u=
>p that "2 knots up" means "2 knots up" in both speed
command and climb
>mode=
>, the V9 tones in speed command are set to correspond to
horizontal speed
>d=
>ifferences not vertical ones. It uses somehting like the same
tone for "10
>=
>knots fast" that it does for "2 knots up." But in a modern
glider, the
>spee=
>d to fly is much more sensitive to the lift value. So, bottom
line, the
>ton=
>es swing around in speed command mode much more than
they do in climb
>mode.=
> Where this is a problem is when you slow down and sniff
around but
>haven't=
> decided to climb. In speed mode, you'll hear garbage, much
too optimistic
>=
>in lift. So, you have to set it up to switch to climb mode at
about 70
>knot=
>s. =20
>
>All of these varios have hardware in them that could allow for
amazing
>thin=
>gs, not yet implemented in software.=20
>
>John Cochrane

John,

I don't have a problem with the V9 audio but had to think about
the options as there are 7 climb and 5 cruise audio tone options
to choose between so it should be possible to choose a
combination that gives good information and differentiation
between climb and cruise. I have the V9 needle set for Relative
in cruise mode and so I have selected the "SC Mixed" cruise
audio mode. To quote the manual, "for positive relative values
the sound represents relative; for negative relative values the
sound represents SC". This makes reasonable sense to me
intuitively in flight although I prefer the Borgelt idea of
changing to climb tone when the relative is higher than the MC
setting


John Galloway

[Tony[_5_]]

My favorite vario is the one that is pointed UP :)

[Mike the Strike]

On Monday, May 26, 2014 4:33:03 PM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> My favorite vario is the one that is pointed UP :)

In Arizona, ours all go to 11 knots!

Mike

[Craig Funston]

On Monday, May 26, 2014 11:01:02 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> I am on my second season with a V7. Like John I experience less than 100 percent satisfaction as I slow back into the "sniffing around" speeds. Speed to fly actions and tones are excellent when running flat out. When feeling the need to stop and thermal I find myself using my secondary mechanical vario more than I previously did. As a fix I installed a switch near my trim knob and convenient to my left hand. I switch to climb mode manually when transitioning to "I need a thermal" mode of thinking. Downside is this puts LK 8000 in climb mode also as I have the PNA and V7 synced. This throws off my Task Stats in the LK8000.
>
>
>
> All said I do love my V7.
>
>
>
> Lane
>
> XF

Lane,

I also have the V7, LK8000 combination and find it works well. Same issues with sniff mode and will probably change the flap switch to engage thermal mode at 0 rather than +1. I've got a lazy question (haven't gone through all the manuals yet). Is there a way to disengage only the McCready communication between LK and the V7 to allow keeping the LK on a final glide MC while setting the V7 to a lower cruise MC?

The V7 firmware upgrade this year also opened up more options for using the acceleration sensing functions built into the instrument. Does anyone have a clear understanding of the algorithm being used and what advantages it should offer?

Thanks,
Craig 7Q

[s6]

Le mardi 27 mai 2014 14:16:14 UTC-4, Craig Funston a écrit*:
> On Monday, May 26, 2014 11:01:02 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> > I am on my second season with a V7. Like John I experience less than 100 percent satisfaction as I slow back into the "sniffing around" speeds. Speed to fly actions and tones are excellent when running flat out. When feeling the need to stop and thermal I find myself using my secondary mechanical vario more than I previously did. As a fix I installed a switch near my trim knob and convenient to my left hand. I switch to climb mode manually when transitioning to "I need a thermal" mode of thinking. Downside is this puts LK 8000 in climb mode also as I have the PNA and V7 synced. This throws off my Task Stats in the LK8000.



Hi
I am surprised Borgelt instruments, B800, are not on this list???

G
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > All said I do love my V7.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Lane
>
> >
>
> > XF
>
>
>
> Lane,
>
>
>
> I also have the V7, LK8000 combination and find it works well. Same issues with sniff mode and will probably change the flap switch to engage thermal mode at 0 rather than +1. I've got a lazy question (haven't gone through all the manuals yet). Is there a way to disengage only the McCready communication between LK and the V7 to allow keeping the LK on a final glide MC while setting the V7 to a lower cruise MC?
>
>
>
> The V7 firmware upgrade this year also opened up more options for using the acceleration sensing functions built into the instrument. Does anyone have a clear understanding of the algorithm being used and what advantages it should offer?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Craig 7Q

[Jim White[_2_]]

At 18:16 27 May 2014, Craig Funston wrote:
>On Monday, May 26, 2014 11:01:02 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>> I am on my second season with a V7. Like John I experience less than
100
>=
>percent satisfaction as I slow back into the "sniffing around" speeds.
>Spee=
>d to fly actions and tones are excellent when running flat out. When
>feelin=
>g the need to stop and thermal I find myself using my secondary
mechanical
>=
>vario more than I previously did. As a fix I installed a switch near my
>tri=
>m knob and convenient to my left hand. I switch to climb mode manually
>when=
> transitioning to "I need a thermal" mode of thinking. Downside is this
>p=
>uts LK 8000 in climb mode also as I have the PNA and V7 synced. This
>throws=
> off my Task Stats in the LK8000.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> All said I do love my V7.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Lane
>>=20
>> XF
>
>Lane,
>
>I also have the V7, LK8000 combination and find it works well. Same
>issues=
> with sniff mode and will probably change the flap switch to engage
>thermal=
> mode at 0 rather than +1. I've got a lazy question (haven't gone
through
>=
>all the manuals yet). Is there a way to disengage only the McCready
>commun=
>ication between LK and the V7 to allow keeping the LK on a final glide MC
>w=
>hile setting the V7 to a lower cruise MC?
>
>The V7 firmware upgrade this year also opened up more options for using
>the=
> acceleration sensing functions built into the instrument. Does anyone
>hav=
>e a clear understanding of the algorithm being used and what advantages
it
>=
>should offer?
>
>Thanks,
>Craig 7Q
>
Can you not set the vario to change to climb mode based on airspeed. I have
my lx160 set to 58kts and rarely think it is in the wrong mode.

[[email protected]]

The V7 is telling LK8000 to switch between STF and Climb. Basically the PNA is slaved to the V7. If I change McCready in one instrument the other follows suite. I don't believe you can uncouple the McCready while other values remain coupled. John Cochran wrote an excellent article on the virtues of having the Nav Device and the Vario McCreadys uncoupled.

Lane

[Craig Funston]

On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 8:41:51 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> The V7 is telling LK8000 to switch between STF and Climb. Basically the PNA is slaved to the V7. If I change McCready in one instrument the other follows suite. I don't believe you can uncouple the McCready while other values remain coupled. John Cochran wrote an excellent article on the virtues of having the Nav Device and the Vario McCreadys uncoupled.
>
>
>
> Lane

Thanks Lane, John's article on final glide and MC is excellent & it would be great to uncouple the LK final glide MC from the V7 speed to fly. I'll dig a bit deeper into the manuals and may ask Paolo if I don't find anything..

Jim, the V7 has options to change between climb and cruise using speed or a switch. I've flown with it both ways and prefer having the switch.

Cheers,
Craig