Re: Weight and balance..

[Bart]

Stones x Cubits = Moment?

I just couldn't resist... ;-) Congrats on the ticket.

Bart



Anne-Marie Maddison wrote:
>
> Finally re'c my ppl h license from the CAA , had to wait over 3 weeks for
> them to process it - that was a long 3 weeks as i wanted to go flying with
> friends..Anyway , took my first passenger out who works at the flight
> school - studying for his CPL - wanted an experienced first passenger to see
> what it was like . This guy is light in weight and fflight was fine....
> Took another friend to the School on Friday for a fly , we were going out in
> my Robinson r 22 beta 2 . I'm doing my pre-flights and was shocked to find
> we were out of balance . I'm 14 stone and my pal is 16 stone . It worked out
> that we could poss get around half gallon of fuel approx 3lbs on board ,not
> even enough to deal with start up and shut down . Whilst i understand weight
> is an issue ,i was amazed to see this . My instructor is very light - 150lbs
> and my passenger was 224lbs.I have many large framed friends who i have told
> i will take for a jolly , now i've got to ask them to lose a few pounds
> before we can fly..
> We ended up changing to an older machine that has the 320 engine that is
> lighter and managed to go for a short flight,still being restricted to a
> light fuel load .My friend enjoyed the flight immensly .
> Having it basically thrust in my face like that, I have learned a valuable
> lesson early on about weight and balance........
> cheers
> Ben

[Andrew Crane]

> > that we could poss get around half gallon of fuel approx 3lbs on board
,not
> > even enough to deal with start up and shut down . Whilst i understand
weight
> > is an issue ,i was amazed to see this . My instructor is very light -
150lbs
> > and my passenger was 224lbs.I have many large framed friends who i have
told
> > i will take for a jolly , now i've got to ask them to lose a few pounds
> > before we can fly..

Surely the problem is weight rather than balance -- as the fuel is behind
the mast you'd be better to have more rather than less fuel to move the CG
backwards unless weight was the issue. I remember my problem was compounded
with aft cyclic movement issues due to my beer gut :-)

> > We ended up changing to an older machine that has the 320 engine that is
> > lighter and managed to go for a short flight,still being restricted to a
> > light fuel load .

Strange -- I had always thought the HP had the battery in the front (or was
that just the Mariner)? I seem to remember HPs "kneel down" more on lifting
than the later Beta 2.

Solution? Type conversion to an R44....

Regards
Andrew (who learned to fly at 240lbs with a 170 lb tutor and not much more
than a prayer in the tank :-)

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Inweb Networks. Quality internet and telecoms services
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welcome

[Mike Williams]

Could you actually run out of cyclic before running out of fuel and if you
ever got into that situation would a safe or survivable landing be possible.
e.g running landing or ditching.

Mike Williams (non pilot)

"Andrew Crane" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> > > that we could poss get around half gallon of fuel approx 3lbs on board
> ,not
> > > even enough to deal with start up and shut down . Whilst i understand
> weight
> > > is an issue ,i was amazed to see this . My instructor is very light -
> 150lbs
> > > and my passenger was 224lbs.I have many large framed friends who i
have
> told
> > > i will take for a jolly , now i've got to ask them to lose a few
pounds
> > > before we can fly..
>
> Surely the problem is weight rather than balance -- as the fuel is behind
> the mast you'd be better to have more rather than less fuel to move the CG
> backwards unless weight was the issue. I remember my problem was
compounded
> with aft cyclic movement issues due to my beer gut :-)
>
> > > We ended up changing to an older machine that has the 320 engine that
is
> > > lighter and managed to go for a short flight,still being restricted to
a
> > > light fuel load .
>
> Strange -- I had always thought the HP had the battery in the front (or
was
> that just the Mariner)? I seem to remember HPs "kneel down" more on
lifting
> than the later Beta 2.
>
> Solution? Type conversion to an R44....
>
> Regards
> Andrew (who learned to fly at 240lbs with a 170 lb tutor and not much more
> than a prayer in the tank :-)
>
> --
> Inweb Networks. Quality internet and telecoms services
> Sales: 08000 612222 Support: 08704322222. http://www.inweb.co.uk
> E1 call share - 65%. 0800, 0845 and 0870 numbers - best rates. Resellers
> welcome
>
>

[Anne-Marie Maddison]

Mike
the way i understand it is ( not an expert though ) ,if the heli isn't in
balance to manufacturers recomendations then you can run out of cyclic.That
is the way i have had it explained to me . You would run out of cyclic
straight away because you are out of balance.
cheers
Ben
"Mike Williams" > wrote in message
...
> Could you actually run out of cyclic before running out of fuel and if you
> ever got into that situation would a safe or survivable landing be
possible.
> e.g running landing or ditching.
>
> Mike Williams (non pilot)
>
> "Andrew Crane" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > > > that we could poss get around half gallon of fuel approx 3lbs on
board
> > ,not
> > > > even enough to deal with start up and shut down . Whilst i
understand
> > weight
> > > > is an issue ,i was amazed to see this . My instructor is very
light -
> > 150lbs
> > > > and my passenger was 224lbs.I have many large framed friends who i
> have
> > told
> > > > i will take for a jolly , now i've got to ask them to lose a few
> pounds
> > > > before we can fly..
> >
> > Surely the problem is weight rather than balance -- as the fuel is
behind
> > the mast you'd be better to have more rather than less fuel to move the
CG
> > backwards unless weight was the issue. I remember my problem was
> compounded
> > with aft cyclic movement issues due to my beer gut :-)
> >
> > > > We ended up changing to an older machine that has the 320 engine
that
> is
> > > > lighter and managed to go for a short flight,still being restricted
to
> a
> > > > light fuel load .
> >
> > Strange -- I had always thought the HP had the battery in the front (or
> was
> > that just the Mariner)? I seem to remember HPs "kneel down" more on
> lifting
> > than the later Beta 2.
> >
> > Solution? Type conversion to an R44....
> >
> > Regards
> > Andrew (who learned to fly at 240lbs with a 170 lb tutor and not much
more
> > than a prayer in the tank :-)
> >
> > --
> > Inweb Networks. Quality internet and telecoms services
> > Sales: 08000 612222 Support: 08704322222. http://www.inweb.co.uk
> > E1 call share - 65%. 0800, 0845 and 0870 numbers - best rates. Resellers
> > welcome
> >
> >
>
>

[Andrew Crane]

"Mike Williams" > wrote in message
...
> Could you actually run out of cyclic before running out of fuel and if you
> ever got into that situation would a safe or survivable landing be
possible.
> e.g running landing or ditching.

Breathe in :-)

The nice thing about the Robinsons is you have the option to raise the
cyclic up to your chin to get the extra stick travel required. Your
limitations with the weight too far forward are:

- reduced aft stick movement available
- reduced clearance between tailboom and rotors
- reduced flap/mast clearance

The worst thing is if you're going cross country with lots of people/weight
and full tanks. As you burn the petrol off, you're unaware of the change in
balance because you have a fair amount of forward stick to maintain cruise
speed. It's only when you get to the destination you realise things are
becoming uncomfortable. If weight and balance are going to be an issue,
calculate them with both full and empty fuel before getting airborne,

Regards
Andrew


--
Inweb Networks. Quality internet and telecoms services
Sales: 08000 612222 Support: 08704322222. http://www.inweb.co.uk
E1 call share - 65%. 0800, 0845 and 0870 numbers - best rates. Resellers
welcome

[Mike Williams]

So, if on a flight distance of say 200 miles and with a passenger, would we
need to refuel several times just to maintain CG.
Sorry about the questions, but remember I'm not a pilot but eager to learn
all I can for the future.

Mike W.
"Andrew Crane" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Williams" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Could you actually run out of cyclic before running out of fuel and if
you
> > ever got into that situation would a safe or survivable landing be
> possible.
> > e.g running landing or ditching.
>
> Breathe in :-)
>
> The nice thing about the Robinsons is you have the option to raise the
> cyclic up to your chin to get the extra stick travel required. Your
> limitations with the weight too far forward are:
>
> - reduced aft stick movement available
> - reduced clearance between tailboom and rotors
> - reduced flap/mast clearance
>
> The worst thing is if you're going cross country with lots of
people/weight
> and full tanks. As you burn the petrol off, you're unaware of the change
in
> balance because you have a fair amount of forward stick to maintain cruise
> speed. It's only when you get to the destination you realise things are
> becoming uncomfortable. If weight and balance are going to be an issue,
> calculate them with both full and empty fuel before getting airborne,
>
> Regards
> Andrew
>
>
> --
> Inweb Networks. Quality internet and telecoms services
> Sales: 08000 612222 Support: 08704322222. http://www.inweb.co.uk
> E1 call share - 65%. 0800, 0845 and 0870 numbers - best rates. Resellers
> welcome
>
>

[Anne-Marie Maddison]

The weight and balance computer programme at the flight school i use
calculates it all for you . Basically you put in weights of pilot /
passenger , fuel and any baggage (this is for a R22 ).The fuel amount can be
to max take off weight -what weight is left between the max take off weight
and the weight of the heli ,people and baggage.This programme then gives you
weight and balance at take off and at landing with 5 gallons left on board
..you should always try and land with approx 5 gallons incase a divert is
called at any time . So,your take off and landing weight and balance is
callculated for you.
Now i am going to aasume the following ,if your weight and balance is ok for
take-off and landing then i would presume you do not check in flight because
you are checking the 2 extreme parameters and these are ok.
In the case of me and my heavy friend we were out of balance on take-off and
out on balance on arriving with 5 gallons om board calculated.thats why we
switch machine and went for a short flight.
Cheers
Ben
"Mike Williams" > wrote in message
...
> So, if on a flight distance of say 200 miles and with a passenger, would
we
> need to refuel several times just to maintain CG.
> Sorry about the questions, but remember I'm not a pilot but eager to learn
> all I can for the future.
>
> Mike W.
> "Andrew Crane" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Mike Williams" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Could you actually run out of cyclic before running out of fuel and if
> you
> > > ever got into that situation would a safe or survivable landing be
> > possible.
> > > e.g running landing or ditching.
> >
> > Breathe in :-)
> >
> > The nice thing about the Robinsons is you have the option to raise the
> > cyclic up to your chin to get the extra stick travel required. Your
> > limitations with the weight too far forward are:
> >
> > - reduced aft stick movement available
> > - reduced clearance between tailboom and rotors
> > - reduced flap/mast clearance
> >
> > The worst thing is if you're going cross country with lots of
> people/weight
> > and full tanks. As you burn the petrol off, you're unaware of the change
> in
> > balance because you have a fair amount of forward stick to maintain
cruise
> > speed. It's only when you get to the destination you realise things are
> > becoming uncomfortable. If weight and balance are going to be an issue,
> > calculate them with both full and empty fuel before getting airborne,
> >
> > Regards
> > Andrew
> >
> >
> > --
> > Inweb Networks. Quality internet and telecoms services
> > Sales: 08000 612222 Support: 08704322222. http://www.inweb.co.uk
> > E1 call share - 65%. 0800, 0845 and 0870 numbers - best rates. Resellers
> > welcome
> >
> >
>
>

[Walter Hawn]

You need to learn to do weight and balance for yourself- without a computer.
It's really very simple and painless using a calculator and/or pencil and
paper. The flight manual will have aircraft w&b, and then sum whats added to
that for weight, and moments to the aircraft moment, divide by total weight.
In the way back old days, I'd expect a student (or any pilot) to do one
longhand-manual calculations on paper. If you can't do this, you don't
understand W&B and you're an accident waiting to happen- Sorta like relying
on a box to navigate for you-you're lost and don't know it until the box
dies...
Many flight manuals have charts that you move thru to compute approximate
w&b. In the end, if it's close you gotta compute it yourself. This is
especially true if you haven't the experience to know the danger zones. Once
you know them, mostly it's load to gross and go.

And yes indeed, you can load a helo out of w&b... Weight's usually a lesser
problem, unless your next landing is at a markedly higher altitude, because
if you're too heavy, the bird won't aviate in power limits. Sometimes, not
at all.
The balance part is very dangerous- you have to be in flight to discover
you're out of control authority if you haven't computed it. The balance
might be off aft, forward or even sideways, limiting control authority- you
can't stop the translation. It can affect yaw as well- that's affected by
control arm length, tail rotor from CG- I've never experienced it. Once free
of the ground's restraint, and in flight, you're committed, it's a question
of survival. Another very good reason for gradual liftoffs- if you hit a
control stop before the bird starts moving, you can put the weight back on
the ground and figure out what happened before an accident investigation.

Some helos can, normally loaded, move out of CG with fuel burn. It's useful
to go thru and compute worst case scenarios and know where the potential
danger is if you're not using a load chart scheme.
Wally

[Anne-Marie Maddison]

Hi Wally
My instructor did teach me to do it the manual way to understand exactly
what it was about . We did it numerous times using the r22 robbo manual
using the arms and calcs.So i did experience what you were advising , i was
just surprised to see it early on in my relatively early flying career . It
is something that i will pay alot of attention too .
cheers
Ben
"Walter Hawn" > wrote in message
...
> You need to learn to do weight and balance for yourself- without a
computer.
> It's really very simple and painless using a calculator and/or pencil and
> paper. The flight manual will have aircraft w&b, and then sum whats added
to
> that for weight, and moments to the aircraft moment, divide by total
weight.
> In the way back old days, I'd expect a student (or any pilot) to do one
> longhand-manual calculations on paper. If you can't do this, you don't
> understand W&B and you're an accident waiting to happen- Sorta like
relying
> on a box to navigate for you-you're lost and don't know it until the box
> dies...
> Many flight manuals have charts that you move thru to compute approximate
> w&b. In the end, if it's close you gotta compute it yourself. This is
> especially true if you haven't the experience to know the danger zones.
Once
> you know them, mostly it's load to gross and go.
>
> And yes indeed, you can load a helo out of w&b... Weight's usually a
lesser
> problem, unless your next landing is at a markedly higher altitude,
because
> if you're too heavy, the bird won't aviate in power limits. Sometimes, not
> at all.
> The balance part is very dangerous- you have to be in flight to discover
> you're out of control authority if you haven't computed it. The balance
> might be off aft, forward or even sideways, limiting control authority-
you
> can't stop the translation. It can affect yaw as well- that's affected by
> control arm length, tail rotor from CG- I've never experienced it. Once
free
> of the ground's restraint, and in flight, you're committed, it's a
question
> of survival. Another very good reason for gradual liftoffs- if you hit a
> control stop before the bird starts moving, you can put the weight back on
> the ground and figure out what happened before an accident investigation.
>
> Some helos can, normally loaded, move out of CG with fuel burn. It's
useful
> to go thru and compute worst case scenarios and know where the potential
> danger is if you're not using a load chart scheme.
> Wally
>
>

[Steve Waltner]

In article >, Anne-Marie Maddison
> wrote:
> The weight and balance computer programme at the flight school i use
> calculates it all for you . Basically you put in weights of pilot /
> passenger , fuel and any baggage (this is for a R22 ).The fuel amount can be
> to max take off weight -what weight is left between the max take off weight
> and the weight of the heli ,people and baggage.This programme then gives you
> weight and balance at take off and at landing with 5 gallons left on board
> .you should always try and land with approx 5 gallons incase a divert is
> called at any time . So,your take off and landing weight and balance is
> callculated for you.
> Now i am going to aasume the following ,if your weight and balance is ok for
> take-off and landing then i would presume you do not check in flight because
> you are checking the 2 extreme parameters and these are ok.
> In the case of me and my heavy friend we were out of balance on take-off and
> out on balance on arriving with 5 gallons om board calculated.thats why we
> switch machine and went for a short flight.
> Cheers
> Ben

http://homepage.mac.com/swaltner/flying/

I've posted it before, but this page has a Excel spreadsheet that I
developed on it. It does the W&B calcs for a R-22. It calculates the
max fuel you can carry on board and stay under the max gross weight. It
will plot the "full" and empty fuel points on fore/aft & right/left CG
charts. I've found that the R-22 helicopters that I flew could cary
about 430 pounds pilot/passenger/baggage before being outside of the
forward CG range. Please verify all calculations done by the
spreadsheet before flight.

Steve