Re: off airport landings

[Stan Gosnell]

(tamflyer) wrote in
om:

> Anyone have source for any or all state aviation dept regulations
> governing landing helicopters at sites other than approved airports
>
> Seems to be lots of mis-information about this topic
>
> Feds FAA are pretty simple...no hazards, but apprently state rules are
> VERY different
>

Each city has its own ordinances. You have to know these, plus the county
ordinances. It's a complete maze, and AFAIK there is no central repository
of information, either state, county, or city.

--
Regards,

Stan

[Tom...]

Hiya Gents,

An interesting question has come up here that maybe some of you
might have or thought about. Maybe you too have a house some what
out in the country and wonder if you can fly "out of your back
yard". There are usually two controlling authorities, one the County
then the controlling city or town. I live in Grover Beach which is
in San Luis Obispo county, CA. The county is fairly rural and
their "rule" is: "If is is OK with the owner of the property then
you may take off and land as long as you do not endanger or disturb
anyone." The city says: One may not land a plane within the city
limits unless it is at the air port, an emergency, with written city
approval, or in coordination with police and/or fire departments.

I know of a Doctor who is an R22 owner (he now has the hangar next
to me) who built a nice house out in the rural area of the county.
He also built a metal barn like horse shed with a level concrete pad
and a level 30 ft driveway in-between them. All for the intention of
keeping his R22 at the house (a really great setup!) He sold his old
hangar and did this for
a month when he got a letter from the county to come in for a
hearing. The neighbors had got a petition against him and the board
heard them all and ruled against him, that it was "disturbing their
peace". He has since talked to his neighbors and comes to find out
it was all organized by one guy that live near an airport and hated
the noise and has since retired out in the country and just wouldn't
stand for it. BUT, several of his neighbors told him, after he has
sat down and talked with them, that had he come around and talked to
them first, explained how he would be using it infrequently, not
flying directly over their houses, and that it was not illegal by
county laws, and how he could get someone to the hospital quick, and
just basically "asked" their permission BEFORE he did it they would
have agreed. But the other guy came around after they saw and heard
a helicopter landing several times, inciting them with talk of fiery
crashes, 50 flights a day, and other things. I also know a few
people in other parts of the county that do have their R22's and
R44's at their houses and ranches with no problems.

My suggestion is start feeling out your neighbors now, talk to the
county and city to find out the rules. Talk to the local airport
manager (they usually know all the rules in the area) and talk to
the helicopter instructors as they usually know people that own
R22's because of check rides, and they hear all the good and bad
stories.

All politics is local...

Fly smooooth, fly safe, ENJOY,
Tom...

[Stu Fields]

Totally agree. I took a business card around to all of my neighbors and
told them what I was going to do and pleaded with them to let me know first
if any of my operations upset them and I would take care of it.
To date, no problems. Even 0500 Sun morning test flights have not caused any
reaction.

Stu Fields
"Tom..." > wrote in message
om...
> Hiya Gents,
>
> An interesting question has come up here that maybe some of you
> might have or thought about. Maybe you too have a house some what
> out in the country and wonder if you can fly "out of your back
> yard". There are usually two controlling authorities, one the County
> then the controlling city or town. I live in Grover Beach which is
> in San Luis Obispo county, CA. The county is fairly rural and
> their "rule" is: "If is is OK with the owner of the property then
> you may take off and land as long as you do not endanger or disturb
> anyone." The city says: One may not land a plane within the city
> limits unless it is at the air port, an emergency, with written city
> approval, or in coordination with police and/or fire departments.
>
> I know of a Doctor who is an R22 owner (he now has the hangar next
> to me) who built a nice house out in the rural area of the county.
> He also built a metal barn like horse shed with a level concrete pad
> and a level 30 ft driveway in-between them. All for the intention of
> keeping his R22 at the house (a really great setup!) He sold his old
> hangar and did this for
> a month when he got a letter from the county to come in for a
> hearing. The neighbors had got a petition against him and the board
> heard them all and ruled against him, that it was "disturbing their
> peace". He has since talked to his neighbors and comes to find out
> it was all organized by one guy that live near an airport and hated
> the noise and has since retired out in the country and just wouldn't
> stand for it. BUT, several of his neighbors told him, after he has
> sat down and talked with them, that had he come around and talked to
> them first, explained how he would be using it infrequently, not
> flying directly over their houses, and that it was not illegal by
> county laws, and how he could get someone to the hospital quick, and
> just basically "asked" their permission BEFORE he did it they would
> have agreed. But the other guy came around after they saw and heard
> a helicopter landing several times, inciting them with talk of fiery
> crashes, 50 flights a day, and other things. I also know a few
> people in other parts of the county that do have their R22's and
> R44's at their houses and ranches with no problems.
>
> My suggestion is start feeling out your neighbors now, talk to the
> county and city to find out the rules. Talk to the local airport
> manager (they usually know all the rules in the area) and talk to
> the helicopter instructors as they usually know people that own
> R22's because of check rides, and they hear all the good and bad
> stories.
>
> All politics is local...
>
> Fly smooooth, fly safe, ENJOY,
> Tom...

[JIM105]

snip stuff
>To date, no problems. Even 0500 Sun morning test flights have not caused any
>reaction.
>
I'm sorry, but I don't think I would enjoy hearing a test flight at 0500 on a
Sunday morning. A little courtesy can go a long way. I fly my boss in and out
of his house in a sparsley populated area. The county approved his pad with
the stipulation of no operations before 0700 and after 2100. Makes sense to
me.

Jim

[Micbloo]

>I'm sorry, but I don't think I would enjoy hearing a test flight at 0500 on a
>Sunday morning. A little courtesy can go a long way.

LOL, yeah I agree. Now you all know I love helicopters but NOT at 5AM on a
Sunday morning doing terst flights.
Hell, even when I lived in Queens (NYC)
and I heard the ENG guys hovering by the nearby highway at 7AM it kinda irked
me.
Especially when I saw on TV they were covering a friggin disabled car!!
Of course it it's an emergency (EMS, PD, SAR) then that's different.

Gerard

[Treetopper]

Yeh, its kind of strange that people think their activity is fine but
someone else's activity violates their serenity (has kind of a middle
eastern flavor to it).

Just an opinion mindya
Jim

"Micbloo" > wrote in message
...
> >I'm sorry, but I don't think I would enjoy hearing a test flight at 0500
on a
> >Sunday morning. A little courtesy can go a long way.
>
> LOL, yeah I agree. Now you all know I love helicopters but NOT at 5AM on a
> Sunday morning doing terst flights.
> Hell, even when I lived in Queens (NYC)
> and I heard the ENG guys hovering by the nearby highway at 7AM it kinda
irked
> me.
> Especially when I saw on TV they were covering a friggin disabled car!!
> Of course it it's an emergency (EMS, PD, SAR) then that's different.
>
> Gerard

[[email protected]]

"Treetopper" > wrote:

> Yeh, its kind of strange that people think their activity is fine but
> someone else's activity violates their serenity (has kind of a middle
> eastern flavor to it).

Especially when it comes to dogs barking. I'd rather have a
helicopter. Far less noise.



Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Dave]

There's no substitute for doing your homework--START with chatting
with other helicopter folks in local area. Find out where the trouble
spots/agencies are, network through to pilots who've had problems, see
what you learn.

Government employees, generally, are likely to give you wrong answers
unless you work past receptionists & flunkies to the administrators,
by which point they've gathered so much information about your
proposed operations that you might have well published it in the
newspaper and you won't have a chance to keep it quiet should you want
to do so!

IF YOU'RE LUCKY the local agencies will say 'no problem.' But if
you're not, it could be that you'll wish you'd never picked up the
phone.

Basic regulatory structure: landowner, constrained by neighbors,
severally constrained by town/city (if present), constrained by
County, then State, then Federal.

The most restrictive of these are town/city and Federal. I have yet
(in over a year of scenic touring western states with R22 on trailer)
to find a municipality that allowed helicopter ops within city limits
without multiple one-time permits & inspections & insurance hassles.
It's a cover-your-ass environment--"If we make it impossible for you,
we don't have to face irate voters!" Little city governments without
a policy in place listen to your inquiry, then immediately call their
buddies in BIG city departments down the road to find out what to do,
and the BIG city departments have already found out about voters, so
they pass the word, and suddenly the little city sounds just as
cumbersome as the BIG city. It's no accident. City governments are
bad news for helicopters!

Federal: BLM seldom CARES what you do, except for special cases.
(BLM-administered National Recreation Areas are mostly closed because
their role models are the NRA's administered by Nat'l Park
Service--no, no, a thousand times no!) USFS (Nat'l Forests) are
generically closed without special permits, I've been trying to get
one for over a year, they don't answer mail and universally try to get
me to go away if I call on telephone. [The problem is "recreational"
helicopters, they figure you have no NEED to be on USFS you can land
on adjacent private land! Commercial helicopter operations are much,
much easier to get permits for!]

Nat'l Park Service, Fish & Wildlife, Bureau Reclamation, Nat'l
Monuments under various agencies--all have basic restriction "NO"
without Act of Congress or equivalent.

Counties: pretty easy! Urban counties may be difficult, but others
seem to leave helicopters alone, deferring to local municipalities.
And, as with foot-launched aviation, "Tis more blessed to beg
forgiveness than to ask permission."

Sometimes it all gets weird: Lake Powell, Glen Canyon Recreation Area,
Page, Arizona: The NRA is administered by Natl Park Serv, NO you
can't land there. BUT BUT BUT the waters of the lake (160 miles long
.. . .) are OK for Watercraft . . . and for Seaplanes . . . and for
Helicopters! So with no paperwork at all, if you have a houseboat on
Lake Powell, you can operate your helicopter from it (outside of
marinas) as much as you want! The houseboat rental concessionaires
even offered to take down the shade cover on the upper deck of a
rented houseboat so I could use it as a landing pad! What a way to
spend a summer.

[Todd]

Yeah, but you can shoot the dog. Pilots get upset when you shoot at their
aircraft.


> wrote in message
...
> "Treetopper" > wrote:
>
> > Yeh, its kind of strange that people think their activity is fine but
> > someone else's activity violates their serenity (has kind of a middle
> > eastern flavor to it).
>
> Especially when it comes to dogs barking. I'd rather have a
> helicopter. Far less noise.
>
>
>
> Dennis Hawkins
> n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
>
> "A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
> A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
> A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
> To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
> Americans out of work, visit the following web site
> and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
> http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm
>