First helicopter (Remember those days?)

[Jim]

Hello everyone,

I bet this has been covered many times before, and I apologize for
asking yet again. I further apologize for the long post. I'm one of
those new, soon-to-be pilots that needs a lot of advice. I thought if
I gave a bunch of information, some might see how serious I am and
might also recognize how much I need and appreciate the advice of the
experience in this group.
I've always wanted to pilot rotorcraft, and to own one for
recreational purposes. I'm finally at a stage in life where I can do
this kind of thing.
I'm all of about 1.5 hours into flight training in an R22. Cyclic
control in hover seems to be my weak point right now, but I suspect
this is normal. My goal someday is a UH-1N, twin turbine huey. Rough
as it may be to some, it is my hero...and dream. I'm a collector of
military vehicles, this is merely a vertical extension of that love.
Mark my words folks, I will have a huey someday (even if not a -1N
(..sob)).
Now, on to current reality. I'm quite a way from there. I need
flying time. I really want to *know* the helicopter. Getting my pilot
privileges and then simply keeping a helicopter under general control
is akin to the average house-mommy driving her SUV (no offense
ladies). I'm not that kind of motorist.
Renting would seem like the right way to go initially, but I live in
NY, near CT. The only place I can find to rent a heli is at Danbury,
CT. The R22 there requires 100 hours PIC, Robinson training
(California), no passengers, and nothing but airport landings. Totally
unacceptable to me.
Thus, I think I should buy a helicopter. I recognize this is not an
inexpensive proposition, and one full of various complications. Still,
I can't think of a better way to learn something than to be married to
it.
Money is a real consideration, yet I almost shy away in saying that.
I'm not trying to be cheap or to get something for nothing, I'm just
not made of money. A difference of even $30K is significant, although
not necessarily a deal stopper.
I'd appreciate any recommendations for a first-timer like myself.
The R22 is ugly in my opinion, I don't really like the t-bar cyclic,
and it seems very sensitive...but then again...what do I know?!!
The rotorway heli's are VERY cheap, but I read VERY mixed reviews on
them. Honestly, while I am a meticulous mechanic and fully capable of
building or repairing a helicopter, I just don't have the time. Maybe
when it comes down to shining castle nuts on my baby (the UN-1N) I'll
find the time to roll-my-own.
The 300C/CB/CBI? Baby Bell/Safari? What's a good starter? Decent
re-sell, lower per-flight costs, relatively low entry cost, etc. Is
there an optimum, or is it really just personal taste?
I won't be seriously looking/buying for about 6 months, but the
sooner I have a "target" the better. I appreciate your time and
replies.

Thanks,

No, really...Thanks!

Jim Stead
Yorktown Heights, NY

[terra]

Jim wrote:

> I'd appreciate any recommendations for a first-timer like myself.

This isn't a recommendation, but Brantly may be one of the the least expensive
options.
http://www.brantly.com/
http://www.brantly.info/

> What's a good starter? Decent re-sell, ...

This is a recommendation, don't buy a homebuilt helicopter. But if you do, don't
buy a Mini 500.

[Jim]

They had a 269/300C, but I don't know what happened to it. They're
looking into getting a 300CBI, but the no passengers and airport-only
landings is part of their rental contract regardless of the model.
That part bugs me.
I have some properly upstate NY that I'd like to go to with my wife
or a camping buddy, but napalming 1000' of grass and trying to
register it with the FAA as an airport seems like the long way
around.....Then there's the matter of sneaking my wife or friend
through a hole in the fence at Danbury....
Think it's best I get my own :-)

Jim



(Micbloo) wrote in message
>
> Dont they have a Hughes 269 there or did I read somewhere that it crashed?
>
> Gerard

[[email protected]]

If you rent a helicopter, for me anyway, it would be understood that
it would be expected that it might be landed somewhere besides an
airport. If you have to take off and land at airports, what is the
point? You can do that with fixed wing aircraft which are a lot
easier to fly and a lot cheaper too.

My philosophy: Start with owning a small helicopter and work your way
up. Land wherever you please.

Dennis H.

(Jim) wrote:

> They had a 269/300C, but I don't know what happened to it. They're
> looking into getting a 300CBI, but the no passengers and airport-only
> landings is part of their rental contract regardless of the model.
> That part bugs me.

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A Recession is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A Depression is when YOU are out of work.
A Recovery is when all the H1-B's are out of work."
(An H-1B is someone who is brought into the USA to replace
American workers at a fraction of the wage.)

[Stan Gosnell]

wrote in
:

>
> If you rent a helicopter, for me anyway, it would be understood that
> it would be expected that it might be landed somewhere besides an
> airport. If you have to take off and land at airports, what is the
> point? You can do that with fixed wing aircraft which are a lot
> easier to fly and a lot cheaper too.

It's a reasonable restriction, given the liability problems. Landing at
any place other than an airport can be problematic, depending on local
ordinances. In some places, the helicopter can be impounded, and nobody
can keep up with every city, county, state, and federal law about landing.
You need to research the proposed site very carefully before you put skids
or wheels there.

--
Regards,

Stan

[Bernie the Bunion]

Some months ago someone posted a couple of pics either to this group
or the aviation binary group showing a piece of (ruralish) property next
to a large pond with a 206 sitting betwen the house and the pond,
next to trees, etc., and with a neighbours house (property) visible in
the background.

The poster indicated that the homeowner parked his machine in his back
yard on a regular basis.

I asked a general question in this group as to whether it was a little
close to the neighbours house, the appropriatness and legalities of
parking one's helicopter on their property in built up areas, etc., etc.

A couple of people in this group responded by saying that you could
basically land the machine wherever you wanted to.

No sweat.

Now as a lurker and armchair pilot I didn't argue the point but my gut
to me that might not be quite true.

A well know individual to this group and rec.aviation.homebuit, named
Bill Phillips posted a couple of pics a few years ago showing himself
and his helicopter parked on the fringes of a National Park.

Correct me if I am wrong on the details.

In his case fringes meant that the skids were a few feet on National
Park land and someone in the newgroup who didn't like him complained
to the FAA.

I do believe he physically received a visist from them and was
admonished and possibly fined for that transgression.

I find it a little hard to believe that a helicopter pilot could land
in a McDonald's parking lot a go in and pick up a sack of burgers,
or just land in someone's back yard in a residential area.

Now if you owned or were visiting a piece of rural property like
really rural with no neighbours for a mile of so it might be different.

But what do I know about the legalities.

Anybody here know what the law, or rules and regulations
really state, and or allow.....???????

[Dan Thompson]

Yes, the default condition is you can land anywhere.

The default condition can be varied by a law, ordinance, regulation,
statute, etc. that prohibits it at a specific location.

Large- and medium-sized cities often have ordinances that say aircraft can
only land and take off within city limits at an airport, unless a permit is
issued for a specific operation. These permits are easy to get if you have
a good reason and promise to take reasonable safety precautions. Example, a
permit to land your helicopter at a school for a career day show and tell.
Can be gotten on short notice and by fax if they know you. There is no
consistency. In a metro area, even some of the larger cities might not have
an ordinance, but the dinkier suburbs might. I know of one person who as a
prank landed a R22 at his college fraternity house. This was in a city that
had an ordinance. The cops arrested him and he had to take the helo out on
a trailer.

I am not aware of any general county or state prohibitions on helicopter
landings, so city ordinances are normally all you have to worry about. I am
ready to be proved wrong on this for some county or state outside my local
area. Common sense also tells me to check it out before landing at a state
penitentiary or county prison farm.

The feds do have a general prohibition against landing on national parks,
wildlife refuges, Corps of Engineer dams, etc. I know of people locally who
have been fined for landing on a federal dam. Once a friend was down at the
sea coast and landed on a beautiful, uninhabited, little islet just to look
around. At the shoreline, facing out, were signs that said "Seabird nesting
area, entry prohibited." Whoops, but luckily no one ratted him out.

So out in the boonies you can land almost anywhere without fear of violating
a *government* regulation.

But you still have to worry a little about *individual* land-owners' rights.
Your operations on property that belongs to others can be effected by
trespassing laws. Normally you have to be told first, "You're trespassing,
don't do it again" before the land owner can do anything. Even then it
would be such a hassle to file a trespassing lawsuit it would have to be
pretty weird, repetitive situation for that to be a consideration. So
around here anyway we just land in an open field if we feel like it. Never
had a problem with it. Your operations on your *own* property can be
restricted if what you are doing is found to be "nuisance" impacting your
neighbor's right to peaceful enjoyment of his property. Let's face it,
helicopters are loud and scary to non-enthusiasts. So before you put in
your own heliport, better inform your neighbors, offer rides to their
grand-kids, and plan approaches and departures to be the least
nuisance-causing as possible. Obviously the closer they are, the more
likely they will be to take effective action to stop you. I'd guess if
their property line was 100 yards or more away, they'd have a hard time
establishing that you are a nuisance. But I have heard of people with
sensitive livestock like high-dollar horses getting their neighbors with
helicopters to agree to restrict their operations.


"Bernie the Bunion" > wrote in message
...
> Some months ago someone posted a couple of pics either to this group
> or the aviation binary group showing a piece of (ruralish) property next
> to a large pond with a 206 sitting betwen the house and the pond,
> next to trees, etc., and with a neighbours house (property) visible in
> the background.
>
> The poster indicated that the homeowner parked his machine in his back
> yard on a regular basis.
>
> I asked a general question in this group as to whether it was a little
> close to the neighbours house, the appropriatness and legalities of
> parking one's helicopter on their property in built up areas, etc., etc.
>
> A couple of people in this group responded by saying that you could
> basically land the machine wherever you wanted to.
>
> No sweat.
>
> Now as a lurker and armchair pilot I didn't argue the point but my gut
> to me that might not be quite true.
>
> A well know individual to this group and rec.aviation.homebuit, named
> Bill Phillips posted a couple of pics a few years ago showing himself
> and his helicopter parked on the fringes of a National Park.
>
> Correct me if I am wrong on the details.
>
> In his case fringes meant that the skids were a few feet on National
> Park land and someone in the newgroup who didn't like him complained
> to the FAA.
>
> I do believe he physically received a visist from them and was
> admonished and possibly fined for that transgression.
>
> I find it a little hard to believe that a helicopter pilot could land
> in a McDonald's parking lot a go in and pick up a sack of burgers,
> or just land in someone's back yard in a residential area.
>
> Now if you owned or were visiting a piece of rural property like
> really rural with no neighbours for a mile of so it might be different.
>
> But what do I know about the legalities.
>
> Anybody here know what the law, or rules and regulations
> really state, and or allow.....???????

[terra]

wrote:

> IMHO, the brantly is way too ugly.

Aw, come on! Look, it's beautiful!
http://www.brantly.com/B2B_pic149.jpg

> As far as me, I bought a Rotorway Scorpion One single seat helicopter
> for a song and am in the process of restoring it. It looks just like
> the scorpion 133 only thinner.

I saw one at an auto show, seems about 40 years ago. Evinrude motor, right?

[Davdirect]

Somebody is hangaring a brantly at the helicopter school I train with and I
took a look at it one day. My biggest concern is how short the mast is, or
rather how low the blades are to the ground. I'm an average guy 5'11" and I
could see someone being decapitated very easily approaching this aircraft with
blades turning. Just an opinion.
Dave

[Stan Gosnell]

(Davdirect) wrote in
:

> Somebody is hangaring a brantly at the helicopter school I
> train with and I took a look at it one day. My biggest
> concern is how short the mast is, or rather how low the
> blades are to the ground. I'm an average guy 5'11" and I
> could see someone being decapitated very easily approaching
> this aircraft with blades turning. Just an opinion.
> Dave
>
Well, you just keep people out from under it. It's not the only
one, the S76 is even worse, especially during start & shutdown.
The blades can come down below 3' easily then, and below head
height at idle or operating RPM if the cyclic isn't kept back to
near full aft position.

--
Regards,

Stan

[[email protected]]

terra > wrote:

> > As far as me, I bought a Rotorway Scorpion One single seat helicopter
> > for a song and am in the process of restoring it. It looks just like
> > the scorpion 133 only thinner.
>
> I saw one at an auto show, seems about 40 years ago. Evinrude motor, right?
>

No no no, its only been about 35 years and is a about a decade or two
younger than the brantly - only better looking. Yes, it uses a 110 HP
evinrude. In those days, the evinrude was the best choice for a
vertically running engine. I'm not so crazy about it being 2-cycle,
but it is and it works. It will also fly when I am done with it.

Dennis H.

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[terra]

wrote:

> terra > wrote:
>
>> > As far as me, I bought a Rotorway Scorpion One single seat helicopter
>> > for a song and am in the process of restoring it. It looks just like
>> > the scorpion 133 only thinner.
>>
>> I saw one at an auto show, seems about 40 years ago. Evinrude motor, right?
>>
>
> No no no, its only been about 35 years and is a about a decade or two
> younger than the brantly - only better looking. Yes, it uses a 110 HP
> evinrude. In those days, the evinrude was the best choice for a
> vertically running engine. I'm not so crazy about it being 2-cycle,
> but it is and it works. It will also fly when I am done with it.
>
> Dennis H.

There's a sketch of your Scorpion and a bit of history at
http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/scorpion-r.html
Yes, it looks good. Improved all-aluminum rotor blades are mentioned. Be careful
with your deteriorated 35 year-old blades with only 25 hours on them, they
apparently weren't too great when they were new.

[[email protected]]

terra > wrote:

> There's a sketch of your Scorpion and a bit of history at
> http://avia.russian.ee/vertigo/scorpion-r.html
> Yes, it looks good. Improved all-aluminum rotor blades are mentioned. Be careful
> with your deteriorated 35 year-old blades with only 25 hours on them, they
> apparently weren't too great when they were new.
>

The sketch is pretty close to what I have. The red one in the photo
on top and the one in the sketch are both supposed to be scorpions.
The frames are pretty much the same with different bodies. I think
that the red one is the first one that they are talking about and the
one in the sketch is the second one. The javelin is a totally
different looking helicopter.

More rotorway history at: http://www.rotorway.com/history.html
There is a really good photo site at:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/9364/earl2.html

In any event, my scorpion rotor blades are composite and appear
cracked. I haven't figured out how to fix them yet. Perhaps a fresh
coat of resin?


Dennis H.

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Bernie the Bunion]

> > wrote:

> In any event, my scorpion rotor blades are composite and appear
> cracked. I haven't figured out how to fix them yet.

Fix.....????????

> Perhaps a fresh coat of resin?

Perhaps a new set of blades.

[Micbloo]

>> ... The javelin is a totally
>> different looking helicopter.
>
>Ahh, the `60s :-)
>
>Thanks, it's hilarious!!

Geez, it looks like the thing that sits in the play area of my daughters old
Kindergarten
Center.