Re: SOLO flight rules

[Gig Giacona]

You will have to be signed off by and instructor for that aircraft. Do you
already own a flyable Scorpion? You will most likely have to get back in the
R22 for your check ride.


> wrote in message
...
>
> Does anybody know for sure what the rules are on flying SOLO on a
> student license?
>
> What I want to do is finish my dual instruction in an R22 (the only
> heli the schools around here have). Then I want to complete my
> required solo hours in my own scorpion to save money.
>
> Can I do this?
>
> Dennis H.
>
>
> Dennis Hawkins
> n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
>
> "A Recession is when you know somebody who is out of work.
> A Depression is when YOU are out of work.
> A Recovery is when all the H1-B's are out of work."
> (An H-1B is someone who is brought into the USA to replace
> American workers at a fraction of the wage.)

[Stu Fields]

I had two Scorpion ones and sold them to a guy who had an A&P try to get
them going. They still have not been in the air. He had a lot of trouble
with slipping tail rotor belts. There are some problems with the old rotor
head. B.J Schramm, the designer should be contacted about those problems.
I believe I heard him tell one person not to fly the version with the looped
cable in the head. I used to fly a Benson gyro with a McCullough engine.
It was a quiet sewing machine compared to the sound of the Evinrude engine
in the Scorpion. Be very careful.
Stu Fields
> wrote in message
...
> "Gig Giacona" > wrote:
>
> > You will have to be signed off by and instructor for that aircraft. Do
you
> > already own a flyable Scorpion? You will most likely have to get back in
the
> > R22 for your check ride.
>
> My scorpion is a single seater and is not completely restored yet. I
> checked with Rotorway, but it does not seem that there is any way to
> get instruction in a scorpion one. I wonder if a scorpion 2 is close
> enough. The scopion 2 and scorpion one are basically the same
> helicopter with the 2 being bigger and wider.
>
> It is starting to look like I'm going to have to get my certificate by
> soloing in the R22 and then just switch to the scorpion afterwards.
> It seems like thats a waste of money though since I will have to
> relearn everything in the scorpion.
>
> I have all the parts to the scorpion one, but I am not sure what to do
> with the rotor blades. It looks like there are fine cracks in the
> composite. I wonder if simply recoating them with new resin will be
> good enough or if I have to rewrap them. They only have about 25
> hours on them.
>
> I will also say that the scorpion 1 was definitely not designed for
> people with normal length legs. Its a real pain getting in and out of
> it.
>
> Dennis H.
>
> Dennis Hawkins
> n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
>
> "A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
> A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
> A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
> To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
> Americans out of work, visit the following web site
> and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
> http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm
>

[[email protected]]

Most of the problems with the one I have are due to age. A lot of the
aluminum parts have surface oxidation that must be hand removed and
polished. I am planning on having all the aluminum parts hard
anodized so that they don't do that again.

The tail rotor slider mechanism was rusted and I had to work it pretty
hard to get it going again. I am planning on having the TR shaft hard
chrome plated so that it will wear better.

The steel frame is actually in remarkable shape. I'm not sure what
they used to paint it, but I hope to get something that good to
repaint it.

The only components that I am really worried about are the blades.
They only have about 25 hours on them, but also have age cracks in the
composite.

I haven't contacted BJ about the Scorpion One. I don't think he would
have time to talk to me since he is very busy with his helicycle
project. I have the blueprints for the Scorpion 2 and was considering
getting those for the One, but the One is almost identical to the 2 so
I'm not sure if I should bother.

The bent cable is for the collective. Its a nutty way of doing
things, but it does work. Its just not as good as a regular system.
The only real problem with the bent cable rotor head is that it does
not use elastomeric bearings. It uses unsealed thrust bearings
instead. However, because of the way the cable head works, they only
move when you actually move the collective. I'll probably have to
spend a bit of time every few hours of operation greasing them, but a
friend showed me a trick where I can grease them easily with a
hypodermic needle. Hopefully that will make operating it more
manageable.

I'm still not sure what to do about the license.

Dennis H.



"Stu Fields" > wrote:

> I had two Scorpion ones and sold them to a guy who had an A&P try to get
> them going. They still have not been in the air. He had a lot of trouble
> with slipping tail rotor belts. There are some problems with the old rotor
> head. B.J Schramm, the designer should be contacted about those problems.
> I believe I heard him tell one person not to fly the version with the looped
> cable in the head. I used to fly a Benson gyro with a McCullough engine.
> It was a quiet sewing machine compared to the sound of the Evinrude engine
> in the Scorpion. Be very careful.
> Stu Fields
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Gig Giacona" > wrote:
> >
> > > You will have to be signed off by and instructor for that aircraft. Do
> you
> > > already own a flyable Scorpion? You will most likely have to get back in
> the
> > > R22 for your check ride.
> >
> > My scorpion is a single seater and is not completely restored yet. I
> > checked with Rotorway, but it does not seem that there is any way to
> > get instruction in a scorpion one. I wonder if a scorpion 2 is close
> > enough. The scopion 2 and scorpion one are basically the same
> > helicopter with the 2 being bigger and wider.
> >
> > It is starting to look like I'm going to have to get my certificate by
> > soloing in the R22 and then just switch to the scorpion afterwards.
> > It seems like thats a waste of money though since I will have to
> > relearn everything in the scorpion.
> >
> > I have all the parts to the scorpion one, but I am not sure what to do
> > with the rotor blades. It looks like there are fine cracks in the
> > composite. I wonder if simply recoating them with new resin will be
> > good enough or if I have to rewrap them. They only have about 25
> > hours on them.
> >
> > I will also say that the scorpion 1 was definitely not designed for
> > people with normal length legs. Its a real pain getting in and out of
> > it.
> >
> > Dennis H.
> >
> > Dennis Hawkins
> > n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
> >
> > "A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
> > A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
> > A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
> > To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
> > Americans out of work, visit the following web site
> > and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
> > http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm
> >
>
>

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[PW]

> wrote in message
...
>
> Most of the problems with the one I have are due to age. A lot of the
> aluminum parts have surface oxidation that must be hand removed and
> polished. I am planning on having all the aluminum parts hard
> anodized so that they don't do that again.
>
> The tail rotor slider mechanism was rusted and I had to work it pretty
> hard to get it going again. I am planning on having the TR shaft hard
> chrome plated so that it will wear better.
>
> The steel frame is actually in remarkable shape. I'm not sure what
> they used to paint it, but I hope to get something that good to
> repaint it.
>
> The only components that I am really worried about are the blades.
> They only have about 25 hours on them, but also have age cracks in the
> composite.
>
> I haven't contacted BJ about the Scorpion One. I don't think he would
> have time to talk to me since he is very busy with his helicycle
> project. I have the blueprints for the Scorpion 2 and was considering
> getting those for the One, but the One is almost identical to the 2 so
> I'm not sure if I should bother.
>
> The bent cable is for the collective. Its a nutty way of doing
> things, but it does work. Its just not as good as a regular system.
> The only real problem with the bent cable rotor head is that it does
> not use elastomeric bearings. It uses unsealed thrust bearings
> instead. However, because of the way the cable head works, they only
> move when you actually move the collective. I'll probably have to
> spend a bit of time every few hours of operation greasing them, but a
> friend showed me a trick where I can grease them easily with a
> hypodermic needle. Hopefully that will make operating it more
> manageable.
>
> I'm still not sure what to do about the license.
>
> Dennis H.
>
>
>
> "Stu Fields" > wrote:
>
> > I had two Scorpion ones and sold them to a guy who had an A&P try to get
> > them going. They still have not been in the air. He had a lot of
trouble
> > with slipping tail rotor belts. There are some problems with the old
rotor
> > head. B.J Schramm, the designer should be contacted about those
problems.
> > I believe I heard him tell one person not to fly the version with the
looped
> > cable in the head. I used to fly a Benson gyro with a McCullough
engine.
> > It was a quiet sewing machine compared to the sound of the Evinrude
engine
> > in the Scorpion. Be very careful.
> > Stu Fields
> > > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Gig Giacona" > wrote:
> > >
> > > > You will have to be signed off by and instructor for that aircraft.
Do
> > you
> > > > already own a flyable Scorpion? You will most likely have to get
back in
> > the
> > > > R22 for your check ride.
> > >
> > > My scorpion is a single seater and is not completely restored yet. I
> > > checked with Rotorway, but it does not seem that there is any way to
> > > get instruction in a scorpion one. I wonder if a scorpion 2 is close
> > > enough. The scopion 2 and scorpion one are basically the same
> > > helicopter with the 2 being bigger and wider.
> > >
> > > It is starting to look like I'm going to have to get my certificate by
> > > soloing in the R22 and then just switch to the scorpion afterwards.
> > > It seems like thats a waste of money though since I will have to
> > > relearn everything in the scorpion.
> > >
> > > I have all the parts to the scorpion one, but I am not sure what to do
> > > with the rotor blades. It looks like there are fine cracks in the
> > > composite. I wonder if simply recoating them with new resin will be
> > > good enough or if I have to rewrap them. They only have about 25
> > > hours on them.
> > >
> > > I will also say that the scorpion 1 was definitely not designed for
> > > people with normal length legs. Its a real pain getting in and out of
> > > it.
> > >
> > > Dennis H.
> > >
> > > Dennis Hawkins
> > > n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
> > >
> > > "A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
> > > A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
> > > A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
> > > To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
> > > Americans out of work, visit the following web site
> > > and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
> > > http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm
> > >
> >
> >
>
> Dennis Hawkins
> n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
>
> "A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
> A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
> A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
> To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
> Americans out of work, visit the following web site
> and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
> http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm
>

Dennis,

Do you have a PPL? If so, except for safety, you don't need anything for
the rotorcraft.

Phil

[[email protected]]

"PW" > wrote:

> Dennis,
>
> Do you have a PPL? If so, except for safety, you don't need anything for
> the rotorcraft.
>
> Phil

I assume that you mean a private pilot license for helicopters. No.
I haven't gotten that far. I'm still learning in the R22.

I have had some people tell me that the scorpions were much harder to
fly than the R22 and others tell me that they were easier. I'm
totally confused.

Dennis H.

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Treetopper]

Dennis, I think he was trying to tell you you don't have to have a catagory
license to fly a single seat helicopter. Only a rating with that of a power
plant included is required and a SEL will suffice. You can not fly a two
seat though even if solo with out the Rotorcraft-Helicopter rating.

Jim


> wrote in message
...
> "PW" > wrote:
>
> > Dennis,
> >
> > Do you have a PPL? If so, except for safety, you don't need anything
for
> > the rotorcraft.
> >
> > Phil
>
> I assume that you mean a private pilot license for helicopters. No.
> I haven't gotten that far. I'm still learning in the R22.
>
> I have had some people tell me that the scorpions were much harder to
> fly than the R22 and others tell me that they were easier. I'm
> totally confused.
>
> Dennis H.
>
> Dennis Hawkins
> n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
>
> "A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
> A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
> A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
> To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
> Americans out of work, visit the following web site
> and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
> http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm
>

[PW]

"Treetopper" > wrote in message
...
> Dennis, I think he was trying to tell you you don't have to have a
catagory
> license to fly a single seat helicopter. Only a rating with that of a
power
> plant included is required and a SEL will suffice. You can not fly a two
> seat though even if solo with out the Rotorcraft-Helicopter rating.
>
> Jim
>
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > "PW" > wrote:
> >
> > > Dennis,
> > >
> > > Do you have a PPL? If so, except for safety, you don't need
anything
> for
> > > the rotorcraft.
> > >
> > > Phil
> >
> > I assume that you mean a private pilot license for helicopters. No.
> > I haven't gotten that far. I'm still learning in the R22.
> >
> > I have had some people tell me that the scorpions were much harder to
> > fly than the R22 and others tell me that they were easier. I'm
> > totally confused.
> >
> > Dennis H.
> >
> > Dennis Hawkins
> > n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
> >
> > "A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
> > A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
> > A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
> > To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
> > Americans out of work, visit the following web site
> > and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
> > http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm
> >
>
>

What Jim said. :)

[[email protected]]

"Treetopper" > wrote:

> Dennis, I think he was trying to tell you you don't have to have a catagory
> license to fly a single seat helicopter. Only a rating with that of a power
> plant included is required and a SEL will suffice. You can not fly a two
> seat though even if solo with out the Rotorcraft-Helicopter rating.

So now you have me curious. Hypothetically speaking. If a guy, for
whatever reason, is a really good helicopter pilot but does not have a
license, who then subsequently gets a US fixed wing private pilot
license, can he legally fly a helicopter?





Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Kris Kortokrax]

> wrote in message
...
>
>
> So now you have me curious. Hypothetically speaking. If a guy, for
> whatever reason, is a really good helicopter pilot but does not have a
> license, who then subsequently gets a US fixed wing private pilot
> license, can he legally fly a helicopter?
>

Per 61.31(k)(2)(iii), yes, but only if it is an experimental aircraft, and
if the DAR or inspector who signs the airworthiness certificate neglects to
place a limitation in the aircraft's paperwork that would require category &
class ratings on the pilot's certificate.

Kris

61.31 (k) Exceptions.
(2) The rating limitations of this section do not apply to -
(iii) The holder of a pilot certificate when operating an aircraft under the
authority of an experimental or provisional aircraft type certificate;

[Ken Sandyeggo]

"Kris Kortokrax" > wrote in message >...
> > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > So now you have me curious. Hypothetically speaking. If a guy, for
> > whatever reason, is a really good helicopter pilot but does not have a
> > license, who then subsequently gets a US fixed wing private pilot
> > license, can he legally fly a helicopter?
> >
>
> Per 61.31(k)(2)(iii), yes, but only if it is an experimental aircraft, and
> if the DAR or inspector who signs the airworthiness certificate neglects to
> place a limitation in the aircraft's paperwork that would require category &
> class ratings on the pilot's certificate.
>
> Kris
>
> 61.31 (k) Exceptions.
> (2) The rating limitations of this section do not apply to -
> (iii) The holder of a pilot certificate when operating an aircraft under the
> authority of an experimental or provisional aircraft type certificate;

Just a point of curiousity. Accepting payment for flight instruction
in an experimental has been illegal unless it was a gyro with the PRA
exemption. I believe the rules have changed recently, but how did
Rotorway get away with giving lessons at their factory for all those
years in experimental helicopters? Did they say it was "free" if you
bought and built a kit?

Kris, what you posted is correct, but many people interpret that when
the OLs say something about proper category and class ratings in an
experimental rotorcraft's OLs, that it just means a proper rating
period, as in a fixed-wing or other rating requiring a medical. They
never say specifically what type of rating as far as I know.

This is something that will be argued until the end of the world it
seems, as a straight answer cannot usually be gotten from the FAA that
isn't contradicted by some other FAA poobah.

Ken J. - Sandy A. Gowe

[[email protected]]

(Ken Sandyeggo) wrote:


> Just a point of curiousity. Accepting payment for flight instruction
> in an experimental has been illegal unless it was a gyro with the PRA
> exemption. I believe the rules have changed recently, but how did
> Rotorway get away with giving lessons at their factory for all those
> years in experimental helicopters? Did they say it was "free" if you
> bought and built a kit?

Rotorway included the price of the dual training in the price of the
scorpion kit. However, I just got an email from their flight
instructor and he said that they now charge for the dual training in
the Exec. However, he said that it was mandatory for training that
you own a rotorway. He said it didn't matter which rotorway, just as
long as you owned a rotorway. Current training is only in the latest
exec model.

So, getting back to the Fixed Wing PPL being used to fly an
experimental helicopter - Since I don't actually have a PPL of any
kind, it would be a lot cheaper to just get the fixed wing. About
half the cost around here. So the real question is, if I got the
fixed wing PPL and flew the scorpion, could I count those hours toward
my heli-PPL?

Dennis H.


Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Steve Waltner]

In article >, Ken
Sandyeggo > wrote:
ust a point of curiousity. Accepting payment for flight instruction
> in an experimental has been illegal unless it was a gyro with the PRA
> exemption. I believe the rules have changed recently, but how did
> Rotorway get away with giving lessons at their factory for all those
> years in experimental helicopters? Did they say it was "free" if you
> bought and built a kit?

This confusion is because you are thinking of the rules for
Experimental/Amatuer-Built. Obviously Rotorway couldn't get by with
calling their training ships Amateur-Built, so they are in one of the
other Experimental categories.

http://www.landings.com/ shows three N numbers that are registered to
Rotorway which I was able to easily find. These are N904, N906, N907.
The first two are Experimental/Market Survey, while the third appeard
to be a number they have reserved for future use. The Market Survey
registration allows the company to give demo rides and flight training
in an aircraft that has not gone through the FAR 23 certification
process.

Steve

[Stu]

I flew solo with a sign off from the CFI It requires renewing every 90
days. In fact the first time he signed me off he forgot to put the 90 day
thing in and I flew for awhile longer than 90 days.
I would sure be careful and keep the Scorpion at a hover until you get at
least 40hrs. successful. The inital hover time on a completed Safari is
20hrs. before it is flown in the pattern and the Safari doesn't have some of
the funny drive package you have in the Scorpion. The first pattern flite
involved an auto to insure that there was enough down pitch to get proper
blade speed.
Good luck (luck is better than skill)
Stu.
> wrote in message
...
>
> Most of the problems with the one I have are due to age. A lot of the
> aluminum parts have surface oxidation that must be hand removed and
> polished. I am planning on having all the aluminum parts hard
> anodized so that they don't do that again.
>
> The tail rotor slider mechanism was rusted and I had to work it pretty
> hard to get it going again. I am planning on having the TR shaft hard
> chrome plated so that it will wear better.
>
> The steel frame is actually in remarkable shape. I'm not sure what
> they used to paint it, but I hope to get something that good to
> repaint it.
>
> The only components that I am really worried about are the blades.
> They only have about 25 hours on them, but also have age cracks in the
> composite.
>
> I haven't contacted BJ about the Scorpion One. I don't think he would
> have time to talk to me since he is very busy with his helicycle
> project. I have the blueprints for the Scorpion 2 and was considering
> getting those for the One, but the One is almost identical to the 2 so
> I'm not sure if I should bother.
>
> The bent cable is for the collective. Its a nutty way of doing
> things, but it does work. Its just not as good as a regular system.
> The only real problem with the bent cable rotor head is that it does
> not use elastomeric bearings. It uses unsealed thrust bearings
> instead. However, because of the way the cable head works, they only
> move when you actually move the collective. I'll probably have to
> spend a bit of time every few hours of operation greasing them, but a
> friend showed me a trick where I can grease them easily with a
> hypodermic needle. Hopefully that will make operating it more
> manageable.
>
> I'm still not sure what to do about the license.
>
> Dennis H.
>
>
>
> "Stu Fields" > wrote:
>
> > I had two Scorpion ones and sold them to a guy who had an A&P try to get
> > them going. They still have not been in the air. He had a lot of
trouble
> > with slipping tail rotor belts. There are some problems with the old
rotor
> > head. B.J Schramm, the designer should be contacted about those
problems.
> > I believe I heard him tell one person not to fly the version with the
looped
> > cable in the head. I used to fly a Benson gyro with a McCullough
engine.
> > It was a quiet sewing machine compared to the sound of the Evinrude
engine
> > in the Scorpion. Be very careful.
> > Stu Fields
> > > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Gig Giacona" > wrote:
> > >
> > > > You will have to be signed off by and instructor for that aircraft.
Do
> > you
> > > > already own a flyable Scorpion? You will most likely have to get
back in
> > the
> > > > R22 for your check ride.
> > >
> > > My scorpion is a single seater and is not completely restored yet. I
> > > checked with Rotorway, but it does not seem that there is any way to
> > > get instruction in a scorpion one. I wonder if a scorpion 2 is close
> > > enough. The scopion 2 and scorpion one are basically the same
> > > helicopter with the 2 being bigger and wider.
> > >
> > > It is starting to look like I'm going to have to get my certificate by
> > > soloing in the R22 and then just switch to the scorpion afterwards.
> > > It seems like thats a waste of money though since I will have to
> > > relearn everything in the scorpion.
> > >
> > > I have all the parts to the scorpion one, but I am not sure what to do
> > > with the rotor blades. It looks like there are fine cracks in the
> > > composite. I wonder if simply recoating them with new resin will be
> > > good enough or if I have to rewrap them. They only have about 25
> > > hours on them.
> > >
> > > I will also say that the scorpion 1 was definitely not designed for
> > > people with normal length legs. Its a real pain getting in and out of
> > > it.
> > >
> > > Dennis H.
> > >
> > > Dennis Hawkins
> > > n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
> > >
> > > "A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
> > > A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
> > > A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
> > > To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
> > > Americans out of work, visit the following web site
> > > and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
> > > http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm
> > >
> >
> >
>
> Dennis Hawkins
> n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
>
> "A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
> A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
> A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
> To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
> Americans out of work, visit the following web site
> and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
> http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm
>

[helicopterandy]

Dennis,
Do yourself (and your family) a favor and throw away all the Scorpion
junk.
I'm sory, but if you want to take ridculous risks, try tightrope
walking.
Seriously. For some reason most here using this forumn are obviously
kit chopper hobbysts and won't face the music and tell you that you're
gambling with your life fooling around w/ this junk.
Try Robinson. Schweitzer, Bell ect.

[tamflyer]

Just two cents from an old gasser who has survived over 40 years of
helicopter flying
PLEASE think twice about old components
Robinson's 12 year limit is intended to do a lot more than sell
overhauls
Airplanes can tolerate age (and inevitable corrosion) on nearly
everything except wing spars and control cables
Helicopters/Gryos cannot tolerate corrosion without fatal results on
nearly anything

[[email protected]]

Well, "junk" is in the eyes of the beholder I guess. I do have plans
for upgrading the Scorpion's rotor head and control systems at some
time. It currently uses the old cable-in-shaft system. Upgrading the
power transmission system to a transmission/shaft system will be a
little longer.

The first upgrade on the list is the landing gear. Scorpions have a
low (and thus dangerous) landing gear. The gear needs to be more like
an R22 so that the steel will cushion an impact with the ground.

There are several upgrades that I will be doing before I take it more
than a few feet up. The ignition system on the evinrude motor needs
attention. Its a solid state electronic module made in the late 60's.
I have heard rumors that this unit can fail. I want to convert to
some sort of makeshift dual ignition system like the one that the R22
uses.

And the list goes on. Don't worry about me and my bird. I also plan
to eddy current test or magnaflux all the critical components.
Speaking of which, does anybody know if x-ray is a better test than
eddy current when testing aluminum parts?

Dennis H.

(helicopterandy) wrote:

> Dennis,
> Do yourself (and your family) a favor and throw away all the Scorpion
> junk.
> I'm sory, but if you want to take ridculous risks, try tightrope
> walking.
> Seriously. For some reason most here using this forumn are obviously
> kit chopper hobbysts and won't face the music and tell you that you're
> gambling with your life fooling around w/ this junk.
> Try Robinson. Schweitzer, Bell ect.

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[helicopterandy]

(tamflyer) wrote in message >...
> Just two cents from an old gasser who has survived over 40 years of
> helicopter flying
> PLEASE think twice about old components
> Robinson's 12 year limit is intended to do a lot more than sell
> overhauls
> Airplanes can tolerate age (and inevitable corrosion) on nearly
> everything except wing spars and control cables
> Helicopters/Gryos cannot tolerate corrosion without fatal results on
> nearly anything


THANK YOU, TAM.
LET'S SEE THE MORONIC POSTS THAT ARE SURE TO FOLLOW SCREAMING ABOUT
THE "SAFETY" RECORDS OF THESE FLYING COFFINS.

[Ryan Ferguson]

Man. Your messages about flight training and your experimental
helicopter just give me cold chills. I'd have to agree with the
others who've suggested that you give this another thought. Do you
have kids? A family? It's not worth it, guy.

I'm not trying to disparage your helicopter in any way. And it's not
my intent to hurt yer feelings. I think it's great that you're
enthusiastic about rotary wing flight. But I read your words about
the equipment you're using, and how you're trying to shave the costs
off of your training by earning some of your solo time in your
homebuilt. Okay, first things first: 15 hours is a tiny slice no
matter what. You will not be proficient at 15 hours. You will not be
proficient at 30, and probably not 45. Even if you're amazingly
talented, you will not be ready to handle an emergency in that thing
at 75 hours. And the type of failures you're likely to encounter will
be more severe, unpredictable and vastly more difficult to counteract
than in an R-22.

Is your life really worth this? Rent an R-22! If it takes twice as
long and twice as much moolah to get your ticket, so be it! Plus you
can bring a passenger.

Side note. Forget the Scorpion for meeting solo requirements. (You
do realize you need an endorsement for that specific helicopter,
right?) No sane instructor would sign you off to solo that thing.
Lord have mercy.

-Ryan
(CFII, airplanes and helicopters)

[[email protected]]

The R22 is a fine helicopter. However, there are those that fly jet
rangers that would call the R22 a "Death Trap". You suggested that
the Scorpion is not safe. However, you did not specify 'why' you
don't consider it safe.

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I need cold, hard facts and
not general rumors that the ship is dangerous. What is specifically
bad about the Scorpion? I realize that there are many unorthodox
things being done, but is that really bad?

Take the cable-in-shaft control head for example. The entire rotor
head tilts on a U-Joint rather than cyclicly changining the pitch as
does a traditional helicopter. You might look at that and wonder why
BJ Shramm did it that way.

Here is the answer. At the time, the patent on elastomeric bearings
was still in effect. BJ could not use them. He elected to use
traditional thrust roller bearings. The problem with using these
bearings is that if they are under a load and are used cyclicly
(rocking back and forth with every revolution), the grease rolls out
of the way after a few minutes of operation and the bearings have to
operate without lubrication. This results in a failure.

To avoid this problem, BJ tilted the entire rotor head rather than
changing the pitch cyclicly. In fact, the pitch on the blades only
changes when the collective is moved and not the cyclic. This results
in the grease being retained for a longer period of time. It still
needs frequent regreasing, but at least you don't need a new set of
bearings after each hour of flight.

But getting back to the main point, I really do want to hear about
specific problems with the Scorpion. I want to correct these problems
as much as possible.

Dennis H.

(Ryan Ferguson) wrote:

> Man. Your messages about flight training and your experimental
> helicopter just give me cold chills. I'd have to agree with the
> others who've suggested that you give this another thought. Do you
> have kids? A family? It's not worth it, guy.
>
> Side note. Forget the Scorpion for meeting solo requirements. (You
> do realize you need an endorsement for that specific helicopter,
> right?) No sane instructor would sign you off to solo that thing.
> Lord have mercy.

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Andrew Crane]

> wrote in message
...

> To avoid this problem, BJ tilted the entire rotor head rather than
> changing the pitch cyclicly. In fact, the pitch on the blades only
> changes when the collective is moved and not the cyclic. This results
> in the grease being retained for a longer period of time. It still
> needs frequent regreasing, but at least you don't need a new set of
> bearings after each hour of flight.

OK - silly question. On the face of it, it seems to make a lot of sense to
do it this way

- simple connection - you could probably lose the swashplate somehow too
- fewer cyclical forces on components
- less chance of mast bumping

What are the downsides other than potentially odd handling?

I should imagine that the control forces would be enormous and pushing the
rotor head forwards would cause the fuselage to pitch backwards for a
start-off.

Regards
Andrew

--
Inweb Networks. Quality internet and telecoms services
Sales: 08000 612222 Support: 08704322222. http://www.inweb.co.uk
E1 call share - 65%. 0800, 0845 and 0870 numbers - best rates. Resellers
welcome

[[email protected]]

The control linkage that actually tilts the head is mounted 90 degrees
away from the actual intended movement. It appears that BJ took
gyroscopic precession into consideration when he designed this head.

But, like I said, nobody, not even BJ, would ever consider this
approach for a new design. He used this design because it was the
best he could come up with at the time that didn't violate anybody's
patents.

I'm going to change it myself as soon as is feasible.

Dennis.

"Andrew Crane" > wrote:

> OK - silly question. On the face of it, it seems to make a lot of sense to
> do it this way
>
> - simple connection - you could probably lose the swashplate somehow too
> - fewer cyclical forces on components
> - less chance of mast bumping
>
> What are the downsides other than potentially odd handling?
>
> I should imagine that the control forces would be enormous and pushing the
> rotor head forwards would cause the fuselage to pitch backwards for a
> start-off.
>
> Regards
> Andrew
>
> --
> Inweb Networks. Quality internet and telecoms services
> Sales: 08000 612222 Support: 08704322222. http://www.inweb.co.uk
> E1 call share - 65%. 0800, 0845 and 0870 numbers - best rates. Resellers
> welcome
>
>

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[PW]

"Andrew Crane" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > To avoid this problem, BJ tilted the entire rotor head rather than
> > changing the pitch cyclicly. In fact, the pitch on the blades only
> > changes when the collective is moved and not the cyclic. This results
> > in the grease being retained for a longer period of time. It still
> > needs frequent regreasing, but at least you don't need a new set of
> > bearings after each hour of flight.
>
> OK - silly question. On the face of it, it seems to make a lot of sense to
> do it this way
>
> - simple connection - you could probably lose the swashplate somehow
too
> - fewer cyclical forces on components
> - less chance of mast bumping
>
> What are the downsides other than potentially odd handling?
>
> I should imagine that the control forces would be enormous and pushing the
> rotor head forwards would cause the fuselage to pitch backwards for a
> start-off.
>

Not if you do it right. :)

Dennis,

I had no idea BJ did that. If you remember, I wanted to "rid" my coaxial
of the swashplate. Reading the above post, I got excited about the loss of
the swashplate but how did BJ keep collective control without one. Or did I
misunderstand?

Phil


Andrew,

I'll guarentee that if you tilt the mast "my way", the tail doesn't pitch
down. I'm tilting a mast at a very low CG....PLUS.... I'm moving it forward
to slightly change to a forward CG. Same for left, right and to the rear.
Sounds weird but works. It add control complexity, but at least it's not up
in the head spinning. :)

Phil

Back to lurk mode.

[[email protected]]

Actually, I think you misread it. The scorpion DOES have a
traditional swashplate. The linkages to and from it are a little
different, but that's all. It has only two control rods to it. There
is a pivot mechanism at the rear to hold it at a third point. It does
not slide up and down on the shaft. On the top side, there is only
one linkage which is connected to the hub itself and not the blades.
This linkage is what tilts the rotor head.

The collective is totally separate. It is a cable that runs from the
collective control, through the shaft, and out to a sissors joint on
the hub that changes the pitch on the blades. On this design, the
blades only change pitch when the collective is moved and not cyclicly
as in a regular helicopter.

So, with the Scorpion design, the swash plate is not used for the
collective control and is only used for the hub tilting mechanism.

There are other swash plate designs that use a pivoting rod inside the
rotor shaft that are not as reliable. The Mini-500 uses this
approach. Personally, I would not fly in a helicopter that had this
kind of swash plate mechanism as there is no way to inspect it to make
sure its still connected properly. Such a critical component needs to
be out where you can shake it.

Dennis H.


"PW" > wrote:

> Dennis,
>
> I had no idea BJ did that. If you remember, I wanted to "rid" my coaxial
> of the swashplate. Reading the above post, I got excited about the loss of
> the swashplate but how did BJ keep collective control without one. Or did I
> misunderstand?
>
> Phil

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Ryan Ferguson]

wrote in message >...

> I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I need cold, hard facts and
> not general rumors that the ship is dangerous. What is specifically
> bad about the Scorpion? I realize that there are many unorthodox
> things being done, but is that really bad?

I am basing my remarks on comments you made about the age and
condition of the kit.

I have not flown a Scorpion, nor do I intend to fly one. 'Unorthodox'
homebuilt helicopter design appeals to me about as much anal warts.
How many of these things are flying around? How experienced are the
owner pilots who fly them?

> But getting back to the main point, I really do want to hear about
> specific problems with the Scorpion. I want to correct these problems
> as much as possible.

Forget the Scorpion design for now. The specific problems are:

a) You are a neophyte helicopter pilot.
b) You are 'rebuilding' what sounds like a defunct homebuilt kit that
someone else gave up on.
c) You are trying to maximize your training dollar by considering,
even if by the longest stretch of your wildest late night fantasy,
flying your Scorpion to meet some of the aeronautical experience
requirements of your desired pilot certificate.
d) You intend to build, then fly, then maintain your homebuilt
helicopter with your current level of experience.

You sound like you're pretty mechanically inclined. I'm not. I'm
just a pilot. Yeah, I put a little time in on my own airplane and
help out on the annual. But that's airplanes. Helicopters are a
different story. The more I learn, the happier I am that I have
qualified, knowledgeable, and experienced mechanics around who give
our training fleet the TLC they need to be the safe and reliable
workhorses they are. These contraptions are amazingly complicated in
many respects, and surprisingly simple in others. Have you ever flown
test flight trying to gauge blade tracking? Can you track down a
vertical vibration problem? Can you even discern a normal vibration
from abnormal? Honestly, how could you? I say these things not to
belittle. I say them just to make you think. You want to be a test
pilot at 10 or 20 or 30 or whatever hours. I don't want to be a test
pilot at 1,500. Thanks, but no thanks.

My last word. If you pursue the path you're on, you must accept the
fact you'll be facing a vastly increased level of risk. There is a
very significant, very real chance that you will injured or, god
forbid, killed by this dream. Are you willing to forfeit your life
for a homebuilt helicopter?

I won't pound you any further on this. The decision is now yours.
Best of luck to you.

-Ryan

[[email protected]]

Thanks for your comments, however, I would like to add one thing about
what you said....

(Ryan Ferguson) wrote:

> b) You are 'rebuilding' what sounds like a defunct homebuilt kit that
> someone else gave up on.

The Scorpion was originally supplied as a kit made by Rotorway
Aircraft. It looks like this one is one of the earlier ones. The
basic design is almost exactly the same as the Rotorway Exec's
currently being sold. The Exec has a bigger engine, two places, a
beefed up frame and a better control system. However, it still uses
belts, chains, and the same basic hub design.

For this particular one, it apparently sat in the crates until about
10 years ago when it was finally assembled. There is plenty of
cosmetic stuff, but I do plan to strip it down to the frame, test and
rebuild everything.

Again, I appreciate your words of caution and rest assured that I
won't be taking any unnecessary risks. The ship will be balanced
before it gets to leave the ground. The necessary instructions came
with the kit.

Dennis H.



Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[helicopterandy]

wrote in message >...
> The R22 is a fine helicopter. However, there are those that fly jet
> rangers that would call the R22 a "Death Trap". You suggested that
> the Scorpion is not safe. However, you did not specify 'why' you
> don't consider it safe.
>
> I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I need cold, hard facts and
> not general rumors that the ship is dangerous. What is specifically
> bad about the Scorpion? I realize that there are many unorthodox
> things being done, but is that really bad?
>
> Take the cable-in-shaft control head for example. The entire rotor
> head tilts on a U-Joint rather than cyclicly changining the pitch as
> does a traditional helicopter. You might look at that and wonder why
> BJ Shramm did it that way.
>
> Here is the answer. At the time, the patent on elastomeric bearings
> was still in effect. BJ could not use them. He elected to use
> traditional thrust roller bearings. The problem with using these
> bearings is that if they are under a load and are used cyclicly
> (rocking back and forth with every revolution), the grease rolls out
> of the way after a few minutes of operation and the bearings have to
> operate without lubrication. This results in a failure.
>
> To avoid this problem, BJ tilted the entire rotor head rather than
> changing the pitch cyclicly. In fact, the pitch on the blades only
> changes when the collective is moved and not the cyclic. This results
> in the grease being retained for a longer period of time. It still
> needs frequent regreasing, but at least you don't need a new set of
> bearings after each hour of flight.
>
> But getting back to the main point...


Dude, your own statements here are full of "cold hard facts". Read
what you are posting. If you are being truthful, you're trying to
cheaply (forget about it!) find a way to get an obviously terribly
designed aircraft running AND flying yet you cannot fly yourself.
That's like telling a little leaguer that he's gonna start for the
Rams! He'd get killed. DO NOT believe everything you read posted here
from some of the other folks here.
Just go back and reread your own posts and ask yourself why anyone w/
a grain of average IQ would even consider trying to piece together a
chopper from a pile of inferior parts. This isn't "Flight of the
Phoenix". It could wind up very badly.
Save up some $$, finish your instruction in a Robbie or Schweitzer and
then either lease or buy outright.
If you are looking for an inexpensive way to fly helicopters, forget
it. Find another hobby. This one is not for poor folks. Go learn how
to make a higher income.
No disrespect intended, just telling it like it is.
Take care.

[Bob]

Dennis...
I will admit that I've only seen ( up close and personal) a Scorpion ONCE
in my 20 year career as a heavy helicopter mechanic, inspector, chief
inspector etc. etc., and that one look was MORE than enough for me. I don't
even have enough imagination, nor do I care to, picture cyclic change
without blade pitch change. Maybe Sikorsky and Bell, and Boeing et.al. are
missing something important all these years, huh? I never saw ANY real
helicopter that slings grease the way you're talking about unless something
is RADICALLY WRONG. Therein lies clue #1. I always thought they should
just put servos in the thing, hand ya a radio and let you keep your
distance.
I could make better rotor head parts in my cellar, and you strap your ass to
that thing? I STRONGLY suggest a have look a a few REAL helicopters for
some good design comparisons any of which can be done before or after you
have your head examined.

Good Luck!
Bob V.

[[email protected]]

The scorpion head is not the best design in the world. However, as
far as the tilting, an R22 doesn't really tilt on a U-joint, but an
optical illusion makes it look like that. The scorpion really does
tilt.

I have looked at the R22 head and this looks like a nice one. I am
planning some kind of hybrid between the R22 and Bell using
elastomeric bearings. There is no grease in an elastomeric bearing.

This, of course, assumes that I don't find a cheap one on ebay.

Dennis.

"Bob" > wrote:

> Dennis...
> I will admit that I've only seen ( up close and personal) a Scorpion ONCE
> in my 20 year career as a heavy helicopter mechanic, inspector, chief
> inspector etc. etc., and that one look was MORE than enough for me. I don't
> even have enough imagination, nor do I care to, picture cyclic change
> without blade pitch change. Maybe Sikorsky and Bell, and Boeing et.al. are
> missing something important all these years, huh? I never saw ANY real
> helicopter that slings grease the way you're talking about unless something
> is RADICALLY WRONG. Therein lies clue #1. I always thought they should
> just put servos in the thing, hand ya a radio and let you keep your
> distance.
> I could make better rotor head parts in my cellar, and you strap your ass to
> that thing? I STRONGLY suggest a have look a a few REAL helicopters for
> some good design comparisons any of which can be done before or after you
> have your head examined.
>
> Good Luck!
> Bob V.
>
>

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[helicopterandy]

wrote in message >...
> The scorpion head is not the best design in the world. However, as
> far as the tilting, an R22 doesn't really tilt on a U-joint, but an
> optical illusion makes it look like that. The scorpion really does
> tilt.
>
> I have looked at the R22 head and this looks like a nice one. I am
> planning some kind of hybrid between the R22 and Bell using
> elastomeric bearings. There is no grease in an elastomeric bearing.
>
> This, of course, assumes that I don't find a cheap one on ebay.
>
> Dennis.
>

Bob,
This guy Dennis is obviously a clown trying to cause concern among
real aircraft owners and pilots. His making reference to "a cheap one
on eBay" is a dead giveaway. He's just looking for a response. Typical
to these type of forums.

Dennis,
Go back to the remote control forum. Ha ha
Sincerely,
Andy

[Cam]

Good on You Dennis! Just remember, It's just a machine, there's NO
Magic!!!!!!

Cam..

[Cam]

Geee, Let me think? Was Igor just a cartoon character in a kids movie?
Years ago............

Maybe the helicopter was invented by a PILOT!!!
Cam

"helicopterandy" > wrote in message
om...
> wrote in message
>...
> > The scorpion head is not the best design in the world. However, as
> > far as the tilting, an R22 doesn't really tilt on a U-joint, but an
> > optical illusion makes it look like that. The scorpion really does
> > tilt.
> >
> > I have looked at the R22 head and this looks like a nice one. I am
> > planning some kind of hybrid between the R22 and Bell using
> > elastomeric bearings. There is no grease in an elastomeric bearing.
> >
> > This, of course, assumes that I don't find a cheap one on ebay.
> >
> > Dennis.
> >
>
> Bob,
> This guy Dennis is obviously a clown trying to cause concern among
> real aircraft owners and pilots. His making reference to "a cheap one
> on eBay" is a dead giveaway. He's just looking for a response. Typical
> to these type of forums.
>
> Dennis,
> Go back to the remote control forum. Ha ha
> Sincerely,
> Andy

[Rhodesst]

>Geee, Let me think? Was Igor just a cartoon character in a kids movie?
>Years ago............
>
>Maybe the helicopter was invented by a PILOT!!!
>Cam

I remember reading somewhere that Igor Sikorsky (who was the chief designer
"and" test pilot of his aircraft) once stated that all aircraft designers
should be required to test fly their own designs. It's unfair to expect
someone else to take that risk. That way, the good ones learn and improve
their designs and the bad ones automatically eliminate themselves from the
process "before" they get the chance to put anyone elses life in danger.

Sounded pretty good to me at the time! :-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[Bob]

Dennis,
Do you know that a two bladed rotor system HAS to tilt? Do you know why?

I'll grade your answer.
Bob V.

[Cam]

Cheers Steve, I've read that somewhere myself, its a shame it dosen't
apply to life in general for some people...

Cam.

.. That way, the good ones learn and improve
> their designs and the bad ones automatically eliminate themselves from the
> process "before" they get the chance to put anyone elses life in danger.
>
> Sounded pretty good to me at the time! :-)
>
> Fly Safe,
> Steve R.

[helicopterandy]

"Bob" > wrote in message >...
> Dennis,
> Do you know that a two bladed rotor system HAS to tilt? Do you know why?
>
> I'll grade your answer.
> Bob V.


Bob,
Don't bother trying to explain.

[[email protected]]

Bob,

I don't think you understood my explanation. Maybe I should have used
the word "teeter" instead of "tilt". A standard helicopter hub, which
includes most of them, only tilts or pivots on one axis. A scorpion
hub teeters on two axis.

What this means is that if you walk up to a bell or a robinson and
disconnect the linkages from the swash plate to the hub and allow it
to do its own thing, the r22 will only be able to tilt up and down in
the direction of the blades. The scorpion can flop around in all
directions including flopping to the side as well as in the direction
of the blades.

What I said was that the single axis helicopters create the illusion
of floping on two axis because they continually rock as they go around
in the circle. So if you look at a standard helicopter in flight from
the front and the helicopter is moving to the side, the disk plane
tilts to the side whereas the hub really doesn't.

I hope this clears up the differences between a regular hub design and
the scorpion.

Dennis H.


"Bob" > wrote:

> Dennis,
> Do you know that a two bladed rotor system HAS to tilt? Do you know why?
>
> I'll grade your answer.
> Bob V.
>
>

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[[email protected]]

Andy,

I have some serious concerns about you. First off, I fly real
helicopters and not fake ones. The scorpion may not be an apache
longbow, but it IS a real helicopter. As far as parts on ebay, I see
them there all the time. I just passed up on a Bell hub for $500.
That is what I call cheap. Every now and then you see good deals on
ebay. Last week I saw a good helicopter headset for $10. You should
go there sometime and look. A few months ago, I saw a flying, but
timed out, R22 that didn't sell with a minimum bid of $25K. Oh, I
forgot, you don't consider the R-22 to be a real helicopter either.

Dennis H.


(helicopterandy) wrote:

> Bob,
> This guy Dennis is obviously a clown trying to cause concern among
> real aircraft owners and pilots. His making reference to "a cheap one
> on eBay" is a dead giveaway. He's just looking for a response. Typical
> to these type of forums.
>
> Dennis,
> Go back to the remote control forum. Ha ha
> Sincerely,
> Andy

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Cam]

Dennis , I don't think Andy would buy anything that didn't have lots of
'bright' paint and cost more than the neighbors one!



> wrote in message
...
>
> Andy,
>
> I have some serious concerns about you. First off, I fly real
> helicopters and not fake ones. The scorpion may not be an apache
> longbow, but it IS a real helicopter. As far as parts on ebay, I see
> them there all the time. I just passed up on a Bell hub for $500.
> That is what I call cheap. Every now and then you see good deals on
> ebay. Last week I saw a good helicopter headset for $10. You should
> go there sometime and look. A few months ago, I saw a flying, but
> timed out, R22 that didn't sell with a minimum bid of $25K. Oh, I
> forgot, you don't consider the R-22 to be a real helicopter either.
>
> Dennis H.
>
>
> (helicopterandy) wrote:
>
> > Bob,
> > This guy Dennis is obviously a clown trying to cause concern among
> > real aircraft owners and pilots. His making reference to "a cheap one
> > on eBay" is a dead giveaway. He's just looking for a response. Typical
> > to these type of forums.
> >
> > Dennis,
> > Go back to the remote control forum. Ha ha
> > Sincerely,
> > Andy
>

[helicopterandy]

wrote in message >...
> Andy,
>
> I have some serious concerns about you. First off, I fly real
> helicopters and not fake ones. The scorpion may not be an apache
> longbow, but it IS a real helicopter. As far as parts on ebay, I see
> them there all the time. I just passed up on a Bell hub for $500.
> That is what I call cheap. Every now and then you see good deals on
> ebay. Last week I saw a good helicopter headset for $10. You should
> go there sometime and look. A few months ago, I saw a flying, but
> timed out, R22 that didn't sell with a minimum bid of $25K. Oh, I
> forgot, you don't consider the R-22 to be a real helicopter either.
>
> Dennis H.

Dennis,
Thanks forreading my threads. If you had, you would have seen where I
advised you to finish your lessons IN AN R22 or Schweitzer.
I happen to like Robbies. I guess that's why I own one.

[Bob]

Dennis...

$500? That is what I'd call cheap too. Particularly if the time remaining
to overhaul is adequate, the service life remaining of life limited parts is
adequate, the hub is accompanied by a complete and authentic historical
record documenting all of the above, it is free of incidents or damage
requiring re-certification, and therefore also has a servicable (Yellow) tag
attached to it. That of course, would be signed off by an FAA certified and
authorized indvidual or entity qualified to make such a servicability
determination. By the way, I've got a couple of bridges for sale here in
N.Y.C. Are you interested?
Bob V.

[[email protected]]

Yes, some do have all of that. Here is a current listing:

"BELL HELICOPTER SWASHPLATE OUTER RING ASSY.Part Number
540-011-404-5.Inspected,and yellow tagged as servicable,by the Corpus
Christy Army Depot.Has Inspector's stamp on the Yellow Tag." - Current
Price = $35 (Item number: 2453199587).

Then again, all of that "yellow tag" stuff is meaningless to someone
who builds and flys experimental. I tried to find the listing for the
$500 hub, but it has expired.

Does anybody need a new transmission? Try this one for $1326:

"BELL HELICOPTER 0H-58 SERIES MAIN TRANSMISSION.Part Number
206-040-003-5,Serial # BLW-1833.Removed from service 9 July,1991,with
failure code # 804 = No Defect.Was removed because the helicopter was
being upgraded to AH-1P configuration,which required the 4 stage
plantary transmission.Unit will require inspection,and possible
repairs prior to return to service.NOTE!! TOTAL TIME IS 2524.0
HOURS,TIME SINCE OVERHAUL = 531.0 HOURS. COMPLETE HISTORICAL RECORDS
ATTACHED" - (Item number: 2453345640).

And there is more, but I'll let you find them yourself.

No thanks on the bridges. I don't need them. I have a helicopter.

Dennis.





"Bob" > wrote:

> Dennis...
>
> $500? That is what I'd call cheap too. Particularly if the time remaining
> to overhaul is adequate, the service life remaining of life limited parts is
> adequate, the hub is accompanied by a complete and authentic historical
> record documenting all of the above, it is free of incidents or damage
> requiring re-certification, and therefore also has a servicable (Yellow) tag
> attached to it. That of course, would be signed off by an FAA certified and
> authorized indvidual or entity qualified to make such a servicability
> determination. By the way, I've got a couple of bridges for sale here in
> N.Y.C. Are you interested?
> Bob V.
>
>

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Bob]

Dennis...

I must say that I'm beginnging to enjoy our little give and take here.
Herein lies more "on sale" wisdom. NO MILITARY or EX-MILITARY aircraft
parts are certified for use on civilian aircraft. The reason being that
military aircraft fly beyond the allowable civilian flight dynamics
envelope. That means that they operate in mission profiles that exceed
flight manual and certification limits published in FAA Approved flight
manuals and Type Certificate Data sheets for similar CIVILIAN aircraft.
Some of these do make for interesting conversation pieces as wall hangings
or things like lamps in a civilian market. Once upon a time here in New York
there was a radio raffic reporter named Jane Dornacker. She and her pilot
crashed into the Hudson River during a broadcast traffic report. I just
happened to be listening to WNBC at that precise time. Jane Dornacker was
killed.. Subsequent investigation revealed that the Enstrom helicopter they
were flying in had an ex-military clutch installed which happened to fail
causing loss of power to the rotor. Do a GOOGLE search on her name and you
will eventually find the story. I hope that others in this forum may also
benefit by some of the things that I tell you, because whatever I tell you,
YOU CAN TAKE IT TO THE BANK.

[[email protected]]

That's a nice fact to know about military parts. Nevertheless, you
will find all sorts of interesting stuff on ebay. Some of it brand
new. Most used. I saw a supersonic "blue angels" type fighter jet on
there a while back that was going for about $150K. Stuff is sold at
auction so if nobody else wants it, you can get it cheap.

I'm not sure what happened to the traffic reporter. The pilot should
have been able to do an autorotation if he had loss of engine power.
Then again, being a traffic reporter, he may very well have been
flying out of the envelope.

Dennis H.


"Bob" > wrote:

> Dennis...
>
> I must say that I'm beginnging to enjoy our little give and take here.
> Herein lies more "on sale" wisdom. NO MILITARY or EX-MILITARY aircraft
> parts are certified for use on civilian aircraft. The reason being that
> military aircraft fly beyond the allowable civilian flight dynamics
> envelope. That means that they operate in mission profiles that exceed
> flight manual and certification limits published in FAA Approved flight
> manuals and Type Certificate Data sheets for similar CIVILIAN aircraft.
> Some of these do make for interesting conversation pieces as wall hangings
> or things like lamps in a civilian market. Once upon a time here in New York
> there was a radio raffic reporter named Jane Dornacker. She and her pilot
> crashed into the Hudson River during a broadcast traffic report. I just
> happened to be listening to WNBC at that precise time. Jane Dornacker was
> killed.. Subsequent investigation revealed that the Enstrom helicopter they
> were flying in had an ex-military clutch installed which happened to fail
> causing loss of power to the rotor. Do a GOOGLE search on her name and you
> will eventually find the story. I hope that others in this forum may also
> benefit by some of the things that I tell you, because whatever I tell you,
> YOU CAN TAKE IT TO THE BANK.
>
>

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Bart]

I didn't know there were any miitary Enstroms. What did they do
with these?

Bart

Bob wrote:
>the Enstrom helicopter they
> were flying in had an ex-military clutch installed which happened to fail
> causing loss of power to the rotor.
>

[Bob]

Bart go to the attached link and scroll down to the F-28 shark.

http://www.enstromhelicopter.com/company/history.html\

Bob

[Bob]

Sorry That is 280-FX Shark

Bob

[Bob]

When a "clutch" (freewheeling unit) locks up, your rotor stops turning.

Bob

[Cam]

Hi Bob, I would have thought the clutch has to lock up to transmit
torque from the engine, if it dosen't release when the engine fails, then
you have a problem.

Cheers Cam..

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
> When a "clutch" (freewheeling unit) locks up, your rotor stops turning.
>
> Bob
>
>

[Bart]

Pretty spiffy, I never knew that. The 280Fx was the first helicopter
I ever flew.

Bart

Bob wrote:
> Sorry That is 280-FX Shark
>
> Bob
>
>

[helicopterandy]

"Bob" > wrote in message >...
> When a "clutch" (freewheeling unit) locks up, your rotor stops turning.
>
> Bob

Bob,
The flight manual he purchased on eBay must have been missing the
chapter on free-wheeling clutches! :)
Regards,
Andy

[Bob]

Hi Cam...
You are absolutely correct. In the case of that particular Enstrom, the
engine lost power and the clutch didn't disengage. So, the airflow upward
through the rotor which should have been retaining the rotor's autorotation
R.P.M..was expended trying to turn the engine due to the NOT disengaged
clutch. The situation was bad anyway because they didn't have much
altitude- maybe a couple of hunderd feet.

[Cam]

Cheers Bob, Presuming they use a sprag type clutch, I'd imagine it would
have to be very badly worn to lock up in the driving state. Of the different
types (sprag) I've seen, they seem inherently bullet proof buy there design.
I'd love to see a fataly damaged one just to see how they wear.

Cam.....

[[email protected]]

On most helicopters that I have been in, testing the split (sprag
clutch) is part of the power on preflight. It seems kind of odd that
such a catastophic clutch failure would occur without warning in the
preflight. Perhaps they skipped that step.

Dennis H.

"Cam" > wrote:

> Cheers Bob, Presuming they use a sprag type clutch, I'd imagine it would
> have to be very badly worn to lock up in the driving state. Of the different
> types (sprag) I've seen, they seem inherently bullet proof buy there design.
> I'd love to see a fataly damaged one just to see how they wear.

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[[email protected]]

"Sprag clutch" might have been more understandable. Presumably we are
talking about a simultaneous sprag and engine failure. A locked sprag
alone won't down a helicopter.

The scorpion's main clutch engagement is mechanical rather than
electrical. Should the sprag and engine fail simultaneously, the main
engine clutch can be disengaged in less than one second. I don't know
if this would be soon enough, but the 2 minutes that electric clutches
take is most likely too long.

Getting back to the scorpion. It would seem that nobody here has any
concrete facts regarding any serious safety flaws other than the short
landing gear. We (I) have discussed several items that could be
designed better, but nothing was a serious safety issue. The older
scorpion design is apparently high maintenance, but still safe.

Dennis H.


"Bob" > wrote:

> When a "clutch" (freewheeling unit) locks up, your rotor stops turning.
>
> Bob
>
>

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Bart]

Not true in many (most) turbines.

Bart

wrote:
> On most helicopters that I have been in, testing the split (sprag
> clutch) is part of the power on preflight. It seems kind of odd that
> such a catastophic clutch failure would occur without warning in the
> preflight. Perhaps they skipped that step.
>
> Dennis H.
>
> "Cam" > wrote:
>
>
>>Cheers Bob, Presuming they use a sprag type clutch, I'd imagine it would
>>have to be very badly worn to lock up in the driving state. Of the different
>>types (sprag) I've seen, they seem inherently bullet proof buy there design.
>>I'd love to see a fataly damaged one just to see how they wear.
>
>
> Dennis Hawkins
> n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
>
> "A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
> A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
> A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
>
> To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
> them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
> web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
> video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm
>

[Mark]

"Cam" > wrote in message
...
> Cheers Bob, Presuming they use a sprag type clutch, I'd imagine it
would
> have to be very badly worn to lock up in the driving state. Of the
different
> types (sprag) I've seen, they seem inherently bullet proof buy there
design.
> I'd love to see a fataly damaged one just to see how they wear.
>
> Cam.....

I did a little research and found the NTSB report. Docket number NYC87MA024.
It says the sprag clutch was under lubricated, was damaged internally, and
had some incorrect parts fitted ( specifically short pawls ) and that it had
"rolled over" in the opposite direction. I assume this means that the
freewheel direction had reversed. There is also available an audio of the
crash. Jane Dornacker was on air at the time. In the background, it seems
the engine can be heard overspeeding, certainly revving freely with no load
on it. Perhaps the engine didn't fail, the sprag clutch just let go ( hence
engine sounds in the audio ) and in the panic he pulled pitch. The report
says they were only at about 75 feet.

Mark

[[email protected]]

"Mark" > wrote:

> on it. Perhaps the engine didn't fail, the sprag clutch just let go ( hence
> engine sounds in the audio ) and in the panic he pulled pitch. The report
> says they were only at about 75 feet.

That would make sense. By the time he realized that the running
engine wasn't driving the rotors, it was too late.

Dennis H.

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Jim Carriere]

"Bart" > wrote in message
...
> Not true in many (most) turbines.
>
> wrote:
> > On most helicopters that I have been in, testing the split (sprag
> > clutch) is part of the power on preflight. It seems kind of odd that
> > such a catastophic clutch failure would occur without warning in the
> > preflight. Perhaps they skipped that step.

I remember part of the Bell Jetranger preflight was to turn the blades by
hand to 90/270, and you were supposed to turn them counter clockwise (the
direction of normal rotation), I can't remember the reason why that
particular direction was specified. Maybe so as to not spin the power
turbine (and engine RGB) without proper lubrication, maybe it was to check
for sprag clutch disengagement, maybe both reasons.

As for testing the _engagement_ of the clutch on preflight, my first thought
is that it is impractical. Even on a small ship like the Scorpion, the main
rotor may normally experience several hundred pounds-feet of torque...

For another data point, I can say that checking the freewheeling unit(s) is
not a part of the H-60 preflight, the navalized version anyway.

On a related anecdote, when one of my friends was a student pilot, he had a
hard landing when the sprag clutch failed to reengage following a practice
power recovery autorotation. It freewheeled just fine though, and it
engaged fine up until before the auto. That is the only time I ever heard
of such a thing happening.

[Bart]

Actually, the preflight maneuver was to spin them clockwise 360 degs.
The reason you did that was to check for coke-ing of the turbine.
Older C20-s had a problem with this, and by spinning the blades
backwards you would also be spinning the turbine and you can hear
and feel it. I've never heard of the opposite rotation being done,
but im sure someone else will come up with a reason that it was.
btw: spinning the turbine is still part of the postflight of the
MD500, I was told that its because of the crazy engine angle.

The reason for the 90 / 270 thing was to ensure that they were not
still tied to the tailboom. One of the funniest/scary stories I heard
was that during a maintenance run-up the pilot checked for the 90/270
blades, fired up the turbine, and then noticed (too late) that the
mechanic had secured the blades to one of those large rolling toolboxes.
The box rolled around and did some serious damage before the pilot
could stop it. No one was hurt that I know of though.

Bart

Jim Carriere wrote:
I remember part of the Bell Jetranger preflight was to turn the blades by
> hand to 90/270, and you were supposed to turn them counter clockwise (the
> direction of normal rotation), I can't remember the reason why that
> particular direction was specified. Maybe so as to not spin the power
> turbine (and engine RGB) without proper lubrication, maybe it was to check
> for sprag clutch disengagement, maybe both reasons.

[Kathryn & Stuart Fields]

I suggest you contact B.J. regarding that cable head. I heard him tell one
guy not to fly the cable head. Also the pitch bearings in the Safari are
nearly identical to the R-22 and even with grease did not experience failure
during the first 75 hrs. I flew mine. I have converted the grips to oil and
am using ATF which, I'm led to believe, is the same as the R-22.
Some of the posters believe that only certified ships are safe. At the
present time there has been only one fatality in the Safari and that was not
attributed to the aircraft in any way. I'm sure that Robinson wishes he
could say that re: R-22. BTW there are more than one Safari with over 1,000
hrs. accumulated.
I previously owned a couple of Scorpions and did not get either into the
air. I sold them to a guy who had an A&P working on them and I don't think
they ever got them in an unchained hover. The last time I saw them try, the
tail rotor drive belts were slipping and he couldn't stop the ship from
trying to rotate. Only the chains stopped him. The other noticeable thing
was the noise. The exhaust noise on the evinrude was painful some distance
away. I don't know a good way to avoid hearing damage even with plugs and a
headset.
Stu Fields
> wrote in message
...
>
> The R22 is a fine helicopter. However, there are those that fly jet
> rangers that would call the R22 a "Death Trap". You suggested that
> the Scorpion is not safe. However, you did not specify 'why' you
> don't consider it safe.
>
> I don't mean to sound argumentative, but I need cold, hard facts and
> not general rumors that the ship is dangerous. What is specifically
> bad about the Scorpion? I realize that there are many unorthodox
> things being done, but is that really bad?
>
> Take the cable-in-shaft control head for example. The entire rotor
> head tilts on a U-Joint rather than cyclicly changining the pitch as
> does a traditional helicopter. You might look at that and wonder why
> BJ Shramm did it that way.
>
> Here is the answer. At the time, the patent on elastomeric bearings
> was still in effect. BJ could not use them. He elected to use
> traditional thrust roller bearings. The problem with using these
> bearings is that if they are under a load and are used cyclicly
> (rocking back and forth with every revolution), the grease rolls out
> of the way after a few minutes of operation and the bearings have to
> operate without lubrication. This results in a failure.
>
> To avoid this problem, BJ tilted the entire rotor head rather than
> changing the pitch cyclicly. In fact, the pitch on the blades only
> changes when the collective is moved and not the cyclic. This results
> in the grease being retained for a longer period of time. It still
> needs frequent regreasing, but at least you don't need a new set of
> bearings after each hour of flight.
>
> But getting back to the main point, I really do want to hear about
> specific problems with the Scorpion. I want to correct these problems
> as much as possible.
>
> Dennis H.
>
> (Ryan Ferguson) wrote:
>
> > Man. Your messages about flight training and your experimental
> > helicopter just give me cold chills. I'd have to agree with the
> > others who've suggested that you give this another thought. Do you
> > have kids? A family? It's not worth it, guy.
> >
> > Side note. Forget the Scorpion for meeting solo requirements. (You
> > do realize you need an endorsement for that specific helicopter,
> > right?) No sane instructor would sign you off to solo that thing.
> > Lord have mercy.
>
> Dennis Hawkins
> n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
>
> "A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
> A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
> A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
>
> To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
> them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
> web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
> video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm
>

[Kathryn & Stuart Fields]

Lordy: I'm happy that Igor, Frank Robinson, Bell, Hiller, Enstrom...etc.
didn't listen to some people telling them not to experiment but to wait for
a certified ship to come along. I know of several people who have flown
their "non-certified" helicopters accross country with no mechanical
problems. I've had more than one in flight problem in a Bell 47 maintained
by an FAA licensed professional. A friend of mine flew his Safari from Ear
Falls Ontario to the Sun'n Fun fly-in with no chase crew. Just flew and had
fun that he couldn't possibly have done in a certified ship because he
didn't have the $$ for a $160,000 R-22, or while he could have bought a used
Bell 47, he couldn't afford the parts or the $65/hr maintenance. I'm really
glad there are people out there that don't follow some of the advice I've
seen here because I wouldn't be flying and enjoying my Safari Kit
Helicopter. I also realize there are people out there who lack the
motivation, curiosity, and technical skills to engage in the sport of
experimenting with a helicopter. These people should stay with the
certified ships and let others do the experimenting. BTW I know of quite a
few CFI(H) that refuse to fly R-22s. BTW squared. I would suspect that the
Enstrom with the faulty clutch was maintained by an FAA licensed
professional.
While I wouldn't try the Scorpion unless it was chained down securely, I
sure think that Dennis has every right to experiment with the thing. I do
recommend that he contact B.J. for a detailed discussion of the problems
inherent in the Scorpion. In my experience, B.J. is an honorable, honest
individual as well as having as much experience with the experimental
helicopters as anyone out there.
"helicopterandy" > wrote in message
om...
> (tamflyer) wrote in message
>...
> > Just two cents from an old gasser who has survived over 40 years of
> > helicopter flying
> > PLEASE think twice about old components
> > Robinson's 12 year limit is intended to do a lot more than sell
> > overhauls
> > Airplanes can tolerate age (and inevitable corrosion) on nearly
> > everything except wing spars and control cables
> > Helicopters/Gryos cannot tolerate corrosion without fatal results on
> > nearly anything
>
>
> THANK YOU, TAM.
> LET'S SEE THE MORONIC POSTS THAT ARE SURE TO FOLLOW SCREAMING ABOUT
> THE "SAFETY" RECORDS OF THESE FLYING COFFINS.