Q: What can a Commercial Helicopter Pilot Licence holder expect to earn?

[Trentus]

I have a number of options for the use of a recent inheritance, one of which
is to fullfil a lifetime desire to fly choppers.
What could a Helicopter Pilot expect to earn, flying in Australia?

I realise this may be a little like asking, "How long is a piece of string?"
(A: twice as long as half it's length) but there must be some ballpark
figures available.

Any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Trentus

[centurion_of_evil]

U wanna fly people round Vegas or other sites for 10 minutes at a time? U
wanna drop HVAC units on roofs or lay cable in the middle of the forest? U
wanna fly heavy with water looking for hot spots while looking out for a
heavy fixed wing that is looking for the same hot spot all the while your in
haze so thick you have to use your IFR training book to write your last will
and testiment? Or do you just wanna sit around an airport all day waiting
for that fat SOB Exec to get done with his meeting? Your choice 35k to 135k

Zim
I kan fli but I kaint speel, what the hell kinda bozo's are still on the
ground?

"Trentus" > wrote in message
...
> I have a number of options for the use of a recent inheritance, one of
which
> is to fullfil a lifetime desire to fly choppers.
> What could a Helicopter Pilot expect to earn, flying in Australia?
>
> I realise this may be a little like asking, "How long is a piece of
string?"
> (A: twice as long as half it's length) but there must be some ballpark
> figures available.
>
> Any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Trentus
>
>

[Trentus]

"centurion_of_evil" > wrote in
message ink.net...
> U wanna fly people round Vegas or other sites for 10 minutes at a time? U
> wanna drop HVAC units on roofs or lay cable in the middle of the forest?
U
> wanna fly heavy with water looking for hot spots while looking out for a
> heavy fixed wing that is looking for the same hot spot all the while your
in
> haze so thick you have to use your IFR training book to write your last
will
> and testiment? Or do you just wanna sit around an airport all day waiting
> for that fat SOB Exec to get done with his meeting? Your choice 35k to
135k
>
> Zim
> I kan fli but I kaint speel, what the hell kinda bozo's are still on the
> ground?

Thanks for that,
As it happens I discovered our wunaful guvmnt has decided to put up the
"award rates" for helicopter pilots on the internet.
http://www.osiris.gov.au/html/awards/8/H0036/top.htm if your interested.
There are some odd conditions, such as employer having to provide
loss-of-licence insurance, and a minimum $180,000 life insurance policy for
the pilot. Even "camping" allowances for pilots having to camp out while on
a flight.

Here in Australia, all professions have an "award rate" or basically a
minimum wage and conditions.
So having had a look at the above award, I'm now bitterly disappointed, and
starting to wonder whether there are seriously better things to do with a
recent unexpected inheritance than spend it on a CPL (H)
The minimum wage was around $34,000 which is only $6 grand more than what I
made last year as a cleaner (janitor for the US readers) and rises to about
$48,456. Now bearing in mind these are $-Aus not $US, those are very poor
rates considering a cleaner gets only slightly less (mind you even
"cleaners" here are now having to do an "apprenticeship" of a couple of
years, the governments idea to bring industry wide standard skill levels)
Considering the cost of the licence will be around $40,000, it could take,
at worst case scenario, up to 6.66years to get the money back over doing my
current job.
Yet to do a $10,000 IT degree, with guaranteed placement afterwards, would
leave me $30,000 to spend, and get me at least the same minimum wage, and
most likely a hell of a lot more. But then, consider - LOOK DOWN ON PEAK
HOUR from a chopper, or be PART OF PEAK HOUR on the way to the office.
Hmmm.... look to the skies, here I come.

Trentus

[centurion_of_evil]

Wow, You Blokes have that kind of structure for all work fields? It seems
to put the USs "at will" employment to shame, Government mandated work
contracts, Im calling my Congressman.


"Trentus" > wrote in message
...
> "centurion_of_evil" > wrote in
> message ink.net...
> > U wanna fly people round Vegas or other sites for 10 minutes at a time?
U
> > wanna drop HVAC units on roofs or lay cable in the middle of the forest?
> U
> > wanna fly heavy with water looking for hot spots while looking out for a
> > heavy fixed wing that is looking for the same hot spot all the while
your
> in
> > haze so thick you have to use your IFR training book to write your last
> will
> > and testiment? Or do you just wanna sit around an airport all day
waiting
> > for that fat SOB Exec to get done with his meeting? Your choice 35k to
> 135k
> >
> > Zim
> > I kan fli but I kaint speel, what the hell kinda bozo's are still on the
> > ground?
>
> Thanks for that,
> As it happens I discovered our wunaful guvmnt has decided to put up the
> "award rates" for helicopter pilots on the internet.
> http://www.osiris.gov.au/html/awards/8/H0036/top.htm if your interested.
> There are some odd conditions, such as employer having to provide
> loss-of-licence insurance, and a minimum $180,000 life insurance policy
for
> the pilot. Even "camping" allowances for pilots having to camp out while
on
> a flight.
>
> Here in Australia, all professions have an "award rate" or basically a
> minimum wage and conditions.
> So having had a look at the above award, I'm now bitterly disappointed,
and
> starting to wonder whether there are seriously better things to do with a
> recent unexpected inheritance than spend it on a CPL (H)
> The minimum wage was around $34,000 which is only $6 grand more than what
I
> made last year as a cleaner (janitor for the US readers) and rises to
about
> $48,456. Now bearing in mind these are $-Aus not $US, those are very poor
> rates considering a cleaner gets only slightly less (mind you even
> "cleaners" here are now having to do an "apprenticeship" of a couple of
> years, the governments idea to bring industry wide standard skill levels)
> Considering the cost of the licence will be around $40,000, it could take,
> at worst case scenario, up to 6.66years to get the money back over doing
my
> current job.
> Yet to do a $10,000 IT degree, with guaranteed placement afterwards, would
> leave me $30,000 to spend, and get me at least the same minimum wage, and
> most likely a hell of a lot more. But then, consider - LOOK DOWN ON PEAK
> HOUR from a chopper, or be PART OF PEAK HOUR on the way to the office.
> Hmmm.... look to the skies, here I come.
>
> Trentus
>
>

[ChopperJon2]

I would'nt fly a helicopter in Australia if i was you. They do not keep track
of hours in use, which determines a maintenance schedule. Come to the usa
Pompano Helicopters

[Trentus]

"centurion_of_evil" > wrote in
message link.net...
> Wow, You Blokes have that kind of structure for all work fields? It seems
> to put the USs "at will" employment to shame, Government mandated work
> contracts, Im calling my Congressman.

Yep, but bear in mind, we don't generally have "tipping" so a waitress - for
example - is on at least $10p/h,
more with "penalty rates" for weekends, nights, holidays, etc. But doesn't
generally expect tips, which waitresses
in your country just about live on. We give tips here only for exceptional
service. Waiters, porters, taxi-drivers, etc.
All have an "award wage" which is generally a fair wage, but tips are not
equated into their earnings.

So if I do my CPL(H), unless some really rich American wants me to fly
him/her somewhere, I won't be expecting a big tip for the trip.
Bummer!!

Trentus




__________________________________________________ ______________
This part left in place for the context for those who haven't followed the
whole thread.
__________________________________________________ ______________

> "Trentus" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "centurion_of_evil" > wrote in
> > message ink.net...
> > > U wanna fly people round Vegas or other sites for 10 minutes at a
time?
> U
> > > wanna drop HVAC units on roofs or lay cable in the middle of the
forest?
> > U
> > > wanna fly heavy with water looking for hot spots while looking out for
a
> > > heavy fixed wing that is looking for the same hot spot all the while
> your
> > in
> > > haze so thick you have to use your IFR training book to write your
last
> > will
> > > and testiment? Or do you just wanna sit around an airport all day
> waiting
> > > for that fat SOB Exec to get done with his meeting? Your choice 35k t
o
> > 135k
> > >
> > > Zim
> > > I kan fli but I kaint speel, what the hell kinda bozo's are still on
the
> > > ground?
> >
> > Thanks for that,
> > As it happens I discovered our wunaful guvmnt has decided to put up the
> > "award rates" for helicopter pilots on the internet.
> > http://www.osiris.gov.au/html/awards/8/H0036/top.htm if your interested.
> > There are some odd conditions, such as employer having to provide
> > loss-of-licence insurance, and a minimum $180,000 life insurance policy
> for
> > the pilot. Even "camping" allowances for pilots having to camp out while
> on
> > a flight.
> >
> > Here in Australia, all professions have an "award rate" or basically a
> > minimum wage and conditions.
> > So having had a look at the above award, I'm now bitterly disappointed,
> and
> > starting to wonder whether there are seriously better things to do with
a
> > recent unexpected inheritance than spend it on a CPL (H)
> > The minimum wage was around $34,000 which is only $6 grand more than
what
> I
> > made last year as a cleaner (janitor for the US readers) and rises to
> about
> > $48,456. Now bearing in mind these are $-Aus not $US, those are very
poor
> > rates considering a cleaner gets only slightly less (mind you even
> > "cleaners" here are now having to do an "apprenticeship" of a couple of
> > years, the governments idea to bring industry wide standard skill
levels)
> > Considering the cost of the licence will be around $40,000, it could
take,
> > at worst case scenario, up to 6.66years to get the money back over doing
> my
> > current job.
> > Yet to do a $10,000 IT degree, with guaranteed placement afterwards,
would
> > leave me $30,000 to spend, and get me at least the same minimum wage,
and
> > most likely a hell of a lot more. But then, consider - LOOK DOWN ON PEAK
> > HOUR from a chopper, or be PART OF PEAK HOUR on the way to the office.
> > Hmmm.... look to the skies, here I come.
> >
> > Trentus
> >
> >
>
>

[[email protected]]

"Trentus" > wrote:

> recent unexpected inheritance than spend it on a CPL (H)
> The minimum wage was around $34,000 which is only $6 grand more than what I
> made last year as a cleaner (janitor for the US readers) and rises to about
> $48,456. Now bearing in mind these are $-Aus not $US, those are very poor

Have you considered a CFI license? Over here, a lot of guys get that
before going all out commercial. That way, other people are paying
you to get more hours in a helicopter. I don't know anything about
the license structure over in AU, but I assume its similar.

> Yet to do a $10,000 IT degree, with guaranteed placement afterwards, would

Guaranteed placemment? I hope that this is correct, but here in the
states, an IT degree is currently one of the worst possible degrees
you can get. There are no jobs once you get it and you are considered
too old to do the work when you hit 30 years of age. Of course,
you'll never here that bit of truth from any school. This applies
advanced IT degrees as well.

I suggest that if you are looking for a carreer change that you first
look in the newspaper and find what fields are actually hiring. Where
I live, the medical field takes up the largest percentage of
employment ads. The IT field, when listed at all, takes up the
smallest.

Good luck.

Dennis.




Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Trentus]

> wrote in message
...
> "Trentus" > wrote:
>
> > recent unexpected inheritance than spend it on a CPL (H)
> > The minimum wage was around $34,000 which is only $6 grand more than
what I
> > made last year as a cleaner (janitor for the US readers) and rises to
about
> > $48,456. Now bearing in mind these are $-Aus not $US, those are very
poor
>
> Have you considered a CFI license? Over here, a lot of guys get that
> before going all out commercial. That way, other people are paying
> you to get more hours in a helicopter. I don't know anything about
> the license structure over in AU, but I assume its similar.

Pardon my ignorance, I'm only just beginning my enquiries into this field,
what is a CFI licence?

Regarding the IT degree, I was using that to put the costs in perspective.
The IT industry over here has also died, people once on $128 per hour, are
now back to
$35k - $40k annual. I just meant that if I wanted to use the money for a
career change there were
better places to put it. But a career change isn't my main goal, though it
would be nice.

And thanks for the advice, I greatly appreciate all the helpful input I've
recieved from this group.

Trentus

[[email protected]]

"Trentus" > wrote:

> Pardon my ignorance, I'm only just beginning my enquiries into this field,
> what is a CFI licence?

No problem. A CFI is a "Certified Flight Instructor". Over here,
once you have one, you can teach others learning to fly and get them
to both pay for you and the helicopter. The hours you and your
student accumulate count in your logbook toward your total hours. The
helicopter hours are the most expensive part of getting a license.

> Regarding the IT degree, I was using that to put the costs in perspective.
> The IT industry over here has also died, people once on $128 per hour, are
> now back to $35k - $40k annual.

People over here with an IT degree are back to $0 annual or are
working at McDonalds flipping burgers. Of course, that's a whole
other story.

My personal goal with getting a helicopter license is simply to have
fun. If I can one day get a job flying, that would be wonderful, but
I'm not betting the farm on it. If you examine the evidence, you will
find that, for the most part, helicopters are not really practical
unless you own one. If you have to rent one, you have to drive to the
airport where they keep them and fly from there. If you had a fixed
wing license, you'd have to do exactly the same thing.

Dennis.

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[ryuzu]

The Flying Instruction route is a common entry point however the research I
did into this did throw up one point that's worth bearing in mind. In
Australia you can get a HCPL with 105hrs, but need 400hrs to be able to
instruct.

So you need to factor in those additional 295hrs when looking at the costs
to get to CFI.

At least that's how I understand it.

r.

>> Have you considered a CFI license? Over here, a lot of guys get that
>> before going all out commercial. That way, other people are paying
>> you to get more hours in a helicopter. I don't know anything about
>> the license structure over in AU, but I assume its similar.
>
> Pardon my ignorance, I'm only just beginning my enquiries into this
> field, what is a CFI licence?
>

[Ken Sandyeggo]

From someone who's been around the block a few times, if you pick
training and a profession based solely on what it pays, you're doomed
to miserableness. If you don't love, or at least like a lot what
you're doing, you may as well go straight to hell, do not pass "GO"
and do not collect the $200. More pay is way less desireable than
doing something you love to do. I finally got bored with my sign shop
after almost 13 years, sold it and am now almost halfway through a
course in nursing so I can work with kids, something I first thought
of about 35 years ago. The next oldest student in my class is 18
years my junior and I'm 40 years older than the youngest one. Save
working for starving wages, do what your heart tells you. Don't let
anything stop you or anyone talk you out of it. There'll be struggles
and hard times, but in the end, you'll be much richer than the guy
that slugs it out at a job he hates for 40 years in order to get a
pension......that may or may not be there when he expects it. Just
had an ex-sister-in-law that stayed devoted to ATT in Chicago for over
22 years, commuting over 90 miles per day via car and train one-way to
get there. She would have been eligible for her pension in a couple
of years and was looking forward to it. "Sorry, we're closing the
department. Here's a couple months pay and good luck in your job
hunt." (Sound of door slamming behind her). She gets diddly, because
the pension "benefit" was completely company funded, so she had no
vested interest in it at all. That sounds good when you're first
hired; a free pension. Her pension was worth exactly what she put
into it....zilch.

Ken J. - Sandy Eggo




wrote in message >...
> "Trentus" > wrote:
>
> > recent unexpected inheritance than spend it on a CPL (H)
> > The minimum wage was around $34,000 which is only $6 grand more than what I
> > made last year as a cleaner (janitor for the US readers) and rises to about
> > $48,456. Now bearing in mind these are $-Aus not $US, those are very poor
>
> Have you considered a CFI license? Over here, a lot of guys get that
> before going all out commercial. That way, other people are paying
> you to get more hours in a helicopter. I don't know anything about
> the license structure over in AU, but I assume its similar.
>
> > Yet to do a $10,000 IT degree, with guaranteed placement afterwards, would
>
> Guaranteed placemment? I hope that this is correct, but here in the
> states, an IT degree is currently one of the worst possible degrees
> you can get. There are no jobs once you get it and you are considered
> too old to do the work when you hit 30 years of age. Of course,
> you'll never here that bit of truth from any school. This applies
> advanced IT degrees as well.
>
> I suggest that if you are looking for a carreer change that you first
> look in the newspaper and find what fields are actually hiring. Where
> I live, the medical field takes up the largest percentage of
> employment ads. The IT field, when listed at all, takes up the
> smallest.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Dennis.
>
>
>
>
> Dennis Hawkins
> n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
>
> "A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
> A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
> A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
> To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
> Americans out of work, visit the following web site
> and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
> http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[[email protected]]

ryuzu > wrote:

> The Flying Instruction route is a common entry point however the research I
> did into this did throw up one point that's worth bearing in mind. In
> Australia you can get a HCPL with 105hrs, but need 400hrs to be able to
> instruct.

Then the first thing to do is check to see if a US issued CFI license
is transferrable or usable in AU. To get a HCPL over here, the min is
only 40 hrs with 60 typical. In other words, if it is usable in AU,
then come here for a month or two and get your license. I know that
there are a lot of non-US students taking lessons at both flight
schools that I frequent. As odd as it sounds, the US is rumored to be
among the cheapest places to get a pilot license of any type. It may
be worth his while to go this route. Heli lessons in an R22 average
$200/hr.

Dennis.



Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Trentus]

"Ken Sandyeggo" > wrote in message
...
> From someone who's been around the block a few times, if you pick
> training and a profession based solely on what it pays, you're doomed
> to miserableness. If you don't love, or at least like a lot what
> you're doing, you may as well go straight to hell, do not pass "GO"
> and do not collect the $200. More pay is way less desireable than
> doing something you love to do. I finally got bored with my sign shop
> after almost 13 years, sold it and am now almost halfway through a
> course in nursing so I can work with kids, something I first thought
> of about 35 years ago. The next oldest student in my class is 18
> years my junior and I'm 40 years older than the youngest one. Save
> working for starving wages, do what your heart tells you. Don't let
> anything stop you or anyone talk you out of it. There'll be struggles
> and hard times, but in the end, you'll be much richer than the guy
> that slugs it out at a job he hates for 40 years in order to get a
> pension......that may or may not be there when he expects it. Just
> had an ex-sister-in-law that stayed devoted to ATT in Chicago for over
> 22 years, commuting over 90 miles per day via car and train one-way to
> get there. She would have been eligible for her pension in a couple
> of years and was looking forward to it. "Sorry, we're closing the
> department. Here's a couple months pay and good luck in your job
> hunt." (Sound of door slamming behind her). She gets diddly, because
> the pension "benefit" was completely company funded, so she had no
> vested interest in it at all. That sounds good when you're first
> hired; a free pension. Her pension was worth exactly what she put
> into it....zilch.
>
> Ken J. - Sandy Eggo


Thanks for that, it pretty much sums up the way I feel.
However, I'm not looking into the money in order to make the decision, I'm
looking into the practicalities of a decision I've just about made.

Unfortunately the amount of money I unexpectedly came across is just barely
enough to do the course, so it won't pay for many extra hours above the
licence itself. So I'll end up spending $40K and have 105 hours clocked up.
If I can't then get some extra hours up at someone else's expense, my
current job certainly won't provide for them with a wife, kids, mortgage,
and car loan to feed. I need to be practical about it, cause the other
course of action with $40k would mean, NO car loan, HALF the mortgage, and a
wife who would then be able to quit her job and work part time - which has
been her dream for a long time. Her dream, or mine? As much as I like
doing things for ME, I love doing things for her, and so if I can't increase
my income from this dream, then I'd rather help her meet her dream.

Besides, I'm over 38, I'd be 39 by the time I finished the course, that
means trying to find work at 40, with only 105 hours clocked up. I don't see
that happening.
I would think, that 105 hours and then basically NONE, might actually hurt
far more than never having flown.

Oh well, it's given me food for thought, 45 hours less time to get the
licence, means 45 more lots of $350 in my pocket, which means more than
enough to go to the US, do the licence, come back, and also spend a nice
chunk on the Missus, but I'd need to look into the requirements once I get
back here, regarding changing the licence over.

Trentus

[Trentus]

> wrote in message
...
> ryuzu > wrote:
>
> > The Flying Instruction route is a common entry point however the
research I
> > did into this did throw up one point that's worth bearing in mind. In
> > Australia you can get a HCPL with 105hrs, but need 400hrs to be able to
> > instruct.
>
> Then the first thing to do is check to see if a US issued CFI license
> is transferrable or usable in AU. To get a HCPL over here, the min is
> only 40 hrs with 60 typical. In other words, if it is usable in AU,
> then come here for a month or two and get your license. I know that
> there are a lot of non-US students taking lessons at both flight
> schools that I frequent. As odd as it sounds, the US is rumored to be
> among the cheapest places to get a pilot license of any type. It may
> be worth his while to go this route. Heli lessons in an R22 average
> $200/hr.

$350 an hour here, but then with our dollar only worth 69cents over there,
that ends up about the same amount, and I'd have to pay for the airfare and
accomodation to get there.
But then, at 105 hours here (125 hours if the final 30 hours are completed
in a time >3 months) versus your 60 hours, those 45 extra multiples of $350
would easily pay the costs of travel/accomodation. But what will I be up for
upon return? And it's going to be hard enough to do anything with the
licence with 105 hours clocked up, 60 hours sure aint going to get me much
paid work here.

Trentus

[[email protected]]

"Trentus" > wrote:


> If I can't then get some extra hours up at someone else's expense, my
> current job certainly won't provide for them with a wife, kids, mortgage,
> and car loan to feed. I need to be practical about it, cause the other
> course of action with $40k would mean, NO car loan, HALF the mortgage, and a
> wife who would then be able to quit her job and work part time - which has

Be cautious when partially paying off a mortgage. I have seen some
here that consider extra payments as payments toward interest and not
principal. I suggest that you refinance at a lower principal rather
than try to deal with the current mortgage. To be honest, although I
love helicopters, if I were in your shoes, practicality would make me
choose this option.

> Oh well, it's given me food for thought, 45 hours less time to get the
> licence, means 45 more lots of $350 in my pocket, which means more than
> enough to go to the US, do the licence, come back, and also spend a nice
> chunk on the Missus, but I'd need to look into the requirements once I get
> back here, regarding changing the licence over.

The time to look into the transferability is before you come over
here. I don't know anything about AU law to help you on that.
Nevertheless, even at a 69 cent conversion, those AU $350 hours are
costing you over US $240. If you get 2 hours a day, that US $80 daily
savings would more than take care of your loging expenses. Also, some
of the heli schools have contracted lodging which brings the cost down
even more. So, like you said, with air fare and lodging, the hourly
cost would be about the same, however, its the total number of hours
required. Also, the FAA has approved certain flight simulators that
some schools have for credit toward your license. Up to 7 hours I
think. The dual sim hours are only about $100.

Just remember, a paycheck in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Dennis.


Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[ryuzu]

I thought I'd post a little more of my research into Aus vs US for
helo training. I'm not a HPPL or CPL or anything, this is just the
research I've done to reach my decision. It may well be incorrect, and
if some kind soul corrects this then thanks to them.

So a HCPL package looks cheaper in Australia vs US - i.e. it's cheaper
to get the CPL certificate in AUS, but looking beneath that there are
a couple of important facts relating to hours.

Ultimately sufficient hours are what will get you your first and
subsequent flying jobs and without sufficient hours a job will be next
to impossible regardless pof having a CPL certificate.

The most efficient way into a paid job is through flying instruction.
I guess there are some who have managed to jump into some
non-instruction work but increasingly that seems almost impossible due
to insurance problems for low hour pilots.

In the US a PPL/CPL/CFI will take 150hrs (I know another posted
mentioned 60hrs - I'm not certain what they were referring to for
60hrs, presumably the flat CPL).

At 150hrs in the US you can instruct, although realistically you'll
probably need 200hrs (certainly for R22 instructing) as a minimum.

In Aus though, you can get a CPL with just 105hrs, but you can't
instruct until you reach 400hrs. So you see, the paper is cheaper in
Aus (less hours to CPL) but the route to a job is longer (400hrs) and
therefore more expensive than the US.

So far then the US is looking good. But then the fun begins. Your US
CFI is of course no use to you in Australia with just 150hrs, so you
have to make up the difference somehow. You could just hour build in
Aus, or the US, or you could instruct in the US.

In here is possible option 1 although it's a long shot. Getting back
from the US with your FAA stuff, you do the Aus conversions. Then
you've got around 150hr Aus CPL. This ight put you in a better
position to get a job in Australia than a 105hr CPL. But I think
either is a long shot to be fair.

Staying in the US to do someinstructing (and build hours) is option 2.
US instructing doesn't command very large pay - somewhere between
US$10 and US$20 per FLYING hour. Let's say you manage 14 flying hours
a week on average, your pay would be US$140 to US$280 a week (around
US$600 to US$1000 per month). However the final probelm is that to
instruct in the US, you need a suitable Visa and in total probably 1.5
to years over there (9 months for the training and the rest of the
time to work). The training VISA is easy to get, the working part less
so but doable.

Having gone the US route, you'll need to convert your licenses to the
Aus equivalents before working/instructing - that'll be at least some
written exams and probably a flight test too - not that much money in
the scheme of things but by then you'll have pretty much blown
whatever initial investment you had.

Now for a single guy or even a childless couple with a small capital
sum the whole thing is feasible...for someone with children, later in
life with a pretty settled view of the world, crossing into Helo
flying is going to take not just a big commitment of cash, but also
personal time and significant upheaval. It's this latter part that
will be the clincher - for example, are you ready for your family to
be out in the US for 2 years with a low income etc.

Things like the house and car will probably have to be sold too - you
might get by without the money from them, but the US won't give you a
VISA unless you can prove you can pay the course fees AND live (the
whole family btw) without any kind of income for the whole period
you're out there.

The final point I can make is that even after you get to say the 500
to 1000hr mark - it's still tricky. Most of my research suggests that
those early years (perhaps 5 or so if things go well) are going to be
pretty nomadic if you're going to get anywhere. I saw someone describe
helo work as living where the dirt trail ends because that's where
helo's are most useful. Not all that conducive to family life
(assuming the family even agree to come with you!).

So there you go, my studying of the subject all shows it to be tricky,
not for the faint hearted and if things go well you're looking at 5
years of relative hardship if you're enjoying a fairly comfortable
life now.

If after weighing everything up you still go for it, then best of
luck.

r.



> Thanks for that, it pretty much sums up the way I feel.
> However, I'm not looking into the money in order to make the decision, I'm
> looking into the practicalities of a decision I've just about made.
>
> Unfortunately the amount of money I unexpectedly came across is just barely
> enough to do the course, so it won't pay for many extra hours above the
> licence itself. So I'll end up spending $40K and have 105 hours clocked up.
> If I can't then get some extra hours up at someone else's expense, my
> current job certainly won't provide for them with a wife, kids, mortgage,
> and car loan to feed. I need to be practical about it, cause the other
> course of action with $40k would mean, NO car loan, HALF the mortgage, and a
> wife who would then be able to quit her job and work part time - which has
> been her dream for a long time. Her dream, or mine? As much as I like
> doing things for ME, I love doing things for her, and so if I can't increase
> my income from this dream, then I'd rather help her meet her dream.
>
> Besides, I'm over 38, I'd be 39 by the time I finished the course, that
> means trying to find work at 40, with only 105 hours clocked up. I don't see
> that happening.
> I would think, that 105 hours and then basically NONE, might actually hurt
> far more than never having flown.
>
> Oh well, it's given me food for thought, 45 hours less time to get the
> licence, means 45 more lots of $350 in my pocket, which means more than
> enough to go to the US, do the licence, come back, and also spend a nice
> chunk on the Missus, but I'd need to look into the requirements once I get
> back here, regarding changing the licence over.
>
> Trentus

[[email protected]]

(ryuzu) wrote:

> In the US a PPL/CPL/CFI will take 150hrs (I know another posted
> mentioned 60hrs - I'm not certain what they were referring to for
> 60hrs, presumably the flat CPL).
>
> At 150hrs in the US you can instruct, although realistically you'll
> probably need 200hrs (certainly for R22 instructing) as a minimum.

Hi Sherri,

I was the one who said that. You only need a min of 40 hours to get
your HPPL with the average being 60. If I said HCPL, it was a typo.

Dennis.



Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Tim]

"Trentus" > wrote in message
...
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > ryuzu > wrote:
> >
> > > The Flying Instruction route is a common entry point however the
> research I
> > > did into this did throw up one point that's worth bearing in mind. In
> > > Australia you can get a HCPL with 105hrs, but need 400hrs to be able
to
> > > instruct.
> >
> > Then the first thing to do is check to see if a US issued CFI license
> > is transferrable or usable in AU. To get a HCPL over here, the min is
> > only 40 hrs with 60 typical. In other words, if it is usable in AU,
> > then come here for a month or two and get your license. I know that
> > there are a lot of non-US students taking lessons at both flight
> > schools that I frequent. As odd as it sounds, the US is rumored to be
> > among the cheapest places to get a pilot license of any type. It may
> > be worth his while to go this route. Heli lessons in an R22 average
> > $200/hr.
>
> $350 an hour here, but then with our dollar only worth 69cents over there,
> that ends up about the same amount, and I'd have to pay for the airfare
and
> accomodation to get there.
> But then, at 105 hours here (125 hours if the final 30 hours are completed
> in a time >3 months) versus your 60 hours, those 45 extra multiples of
$350
> would easily pay the costs of travel/accomodation. But what will I be up
for
> upon return? And it's going to be hard enough to do anything with the
> licence with 105 hours clocked up, 60 hours sure aint going to get me much
> paid work here.
>
> Trentus
>
>

As I have a passion for helicopters, I keep track of this newsgroup, but
though I was fortunate enough to be sponsored by the RAF to gain my fixed
wing PPL about 16 years ago, I have never been able to fulfil my dream of
flying rotary wing. Indeed, finances and job commitments are such that I
have had to let even my fixed wing PPL go by the board. :-(

It's nowhere near the same as "real" flying, but the way I indulge my
aforementioned passion now is by flying R/C helicopters. Like I say, nowhere
near the same as the real thing, but a good "second best". A lot cheaper
also...

Even so, I still intend to have at least an hour or two of flying lessons in
a heli, just so I don't go to my grave wondering what it would have been
like to have a go.

Tim


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[ryuzu]

Yeah that's what I thought but the whole thing has so many options I didn't
wnat to second guess it was HPPL only...

Thanks for the update!

r.

>
> Hi Sherri,
>
> I was the one who said that. You only need a min of 40 hours to get
> your HPPL with the average being 60. If I said HCPL, it was a typo.
>
> Dennis.

[ops]

ChopperJon2 wrote:

> I would'nt fly a helicopter in Australia if i was you. They do not keep track
> of hours in use, which determines a maintenance schedule. Come to the usa
> Pompano Helicopters


I beg your pardon!

And don't just quote one accident report from station properties.

Whats your reasons for the statement?

r

[dharakos]

I think 'Ops' has got it fairly wrong. In the large, Australian
operators maintain excellent records and safe machines (as is required
by law).


--
dharakos
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -

[ops]

dharakos wrote:
> I think 'Ops' has got it fairly wrong. In the large, Australian
> operators maintain excellent records and safe machines (as is required
> by law).
>
>
> --
> dharakos
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
> - A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -
>


No I queried the statement below by Chopper Jon2.

The R22 which had a blade failure in Queensland is the one that comes
to mind which the hours were not recorded correctly and in doing so the
R22 main rotor blade incurred a fatigue-related in-flight separation
failure. http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=294

r
.................................................. .............................

ChopperJon2 wrote:

> I would'nt fly a helicopter in Australia if i was you. They do not
keep track
> of hours in use, which determines a maintenance schedule. Come to the usa
> Pompano Helicopters



I beg your pardon!

And don't just quote one accident report from station properties.

Whats your reasons for the statement?

r

[dharakos]

Oops, sorry Ops - I actually meant that the person making the blanket
statement that Australian operators don't record times was wrong. Sorry
got the names a bit mixed!


ops wrote:
> *dharakos wrote:
> > I think 'Ops' has got it fairly wrong. In the large, Australian
> > operators maintain excellent records and safe machines (as is
> required
> > by law).
> >
> >
> > --
> > dharakos
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
> > - A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what
> they fly -
> >
>
>
> No I queried the statement below by Chopper Jon2.
>
> The R22 which had a blade failure in Queensland is the one that
> comes
> to mind which the hours were not recorded correctly and in doing so
> the
> R22 main rotor blade incurred a fatigue-related in-flight separation
> failure. http://tinyurl.com/rkl9
>
> r
> .................................................. .............................
>
> ChopperJon2 wrote:
>
> > I would'nt fly a helicopter in Australia if i was you. They do not
> keep track
> > of hours in use, which determines a maintenance schedule. Come to
> the usa
> > Pompano Helicopters
>
>
>
> I beg your pardon!
>
> And don't just quote one accident report from station properties.
>
> Whats your reasons for the statement?
>
> r *


--
dharakos
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -

[studentpilot]

Someone with a bare commercial licence usually has to pay to get work.
Most of the big training organizations are churning out keen people who
will work for nothing. Vitually nobody will employ a bare comm. In days
gone by mustering used to be the way to log a few hours, now most think
you have to have a degree in cows (Jackaroo or something similar). If
you do snag a job mustering, expect to work big hours in crap
conditions (or rustic rural life, don't expect to get fat). There are
heaps of operators out there who just want cheap labour.

The only resonable paid employment is aeromedical or Gov. type jobs.
These only employ folks with a few hours 3000+, and still don't get big
$, and while there are blokes coming out of the military, they don't
hire many from GA.

The other work is firetime, around 5 months work 1 year in 4, Then the
rest of the time wash cars and serve hamburgers. Fixedwing is probebly
worse, with more young people traveling the country looking for work.
There are people working for $200 a week and doing 60 hours and 7 days,
just to get time. With the domestic Airlines going backwards and GA
stagnating there won't be any hope for the next 20 years.

Sounds rather pessimistic but thats life in GA .:(


--
studentpilot
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -

[John Roncallo]

studentpilot wrote:

> Someone with a bare commercial licence usually has to pay to get work.
> Most of the big training organizations are churning out keen people who
> will work for nothing. Vitually nobody will employ a bare comm. In days
> gone by mustering used to be the way to log a few hours, now most think
> you have to have a degree in cows (Jackaroo or something similar). If
> you do snag a job mustering, expect to work big hours in crap
> conditions (or rustic rural life, don't expect to get fat). There are
> heaps of operators out there who just want cheap labour.
>
> The only resonable paid employment is aeromedical or Gov. type jobs.
> These only employ folks with a few hours 3000+, and still don't get big
> $, and while there are blokes coming out of the military, they don't
> hire many from GA.
>
> The other work is firetime, around 5 months work 1 year in 4, Then the
> rest of the time wash cars and serve hamburgers. Fixedwing is probebly
> worse, with more young people traveling the country looking for work.
> There are people working for $200 a week and doing 60 hours and 7 days,
> just to get time. With the domestic Airlines going backwards and GA
> stagnating there won't be any hope for the next 20 years.
>
> Sounds rather pessimistic but thats life in GA .:(
>
>
> --
> studentpilot
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
> - A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -
>

I dont think of it being all that bad. I between me and my daugter we
will be spending $65,000 US over the next 4 years to send my daughter to
Collage. In those 4 years she will be making zero or minimal. With about
$50,000 US, within one year, you could be instructing in a helicopter
for about $20/billed hour or about $8/equivalent working hour. That
leaves you with 3 years of working (or should I call it continued
education) with $8/hour over the collage student. Choose your carear wisely.

John Roncallo