Re: Kamov folding helicopter?

[Mr.Twistair]

Joss, this heli is slightly described at http://twistairclub.narod.ru
including photos of it's step-by-step unfolding. It wasn't ever flown. The
main reason why is mostly explained as "no suitable engine which would fit
this design that time". I've heard that it was designed to be powered by
small rotary engine but the engine wasn't actually built (never run good
enough - to be exact).

Cheers,

Alex

[Mr.Twistair]

Oops, the correct URL is http://twistairclub.narod.ru/ka56

Sorry,

Alex

"Mr.Twistair" > ÓÏÏÂÝÉÌ/ÓÏÏÂÝÉÌÁ × ÎÏ×ÏÓÔÑÈ
ÓÌÅÄÕÀÝÅÅ: ...
> Joss, this heli is slightly described at http://twistairclub.narod.ru
> including photos of it's step-by-step unfolding. It wasn't ever flown. The
> main reason why is mostly explained as "no suitable engine which would fit
> this design that time". I've heard that it was designed to be powered by
> small rotary engine but the engine wasn't actually built (never run good
> enough - to be exact).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alex
>
>

[Trentus]

"Mr.Twistair" > wrote in message
...
> Joss, this heli is slightly described at http://twistairclub.narod.ru
> including photos of it's step-by-step unfolding. It wasn't ever flown. The
> main reason why is mostly explained as "no suitable engine which would fit
> this design that time". I've heard that it was designed to be powered by
> small rotary engine but the engine wasn't actually built (never run good
> enough - to be exact).

Pardon me while I drop my guard and flash my ignorance to all and sundry.

No tail rotor?
I assume the twin sets of rotors turned in opposite directions to counter
the resultant forces that would cause it to spin otherwise.
How would you then turn one? I believe you turn a helicopter by altering the
amount the tail rotor counters the tendency of the craft to spin? How would
you turn a helicopter that has no tail rotor.

Wouldn't it make a fantatic little commuter vehicle! Straight out of your
backyard, to the nearest park to your work, pack it all up, and walk inside.
Just image the resultant mess that could be created as every Tom Dick and
Harry started going to and from work on one.
Could make a day in the park with your kids pretty messy as the morons we
get on our roads everyday, decide to start landing these things there
instead of creating their usual brand of havoc on the freeways.
Would we end up with Riceboy versions? with huge sound systems, and
colourchange paint jobs?

Aaargh, I think I need to go lie down, the visions of such a world have left
me shaken to the core.

Trentus

[Cam]

Gidday, I'd imagine the yaw would be controlled by rotor torque
differentiation
or simple adjustable rudder type wings in the outer rotor disc wash.
Move to the country and relax.
I can't see car sized mosquitos buzzing around for a long long time .
especially
with modern attitudes like yours.
Try alt.scooters.geriactric (just kidding)

Cheers Trentus
Cam.....


> Pardon me while I drop my guard and flash my
> No tail rotor?
> I assume the twin sets of rotors turned in opposite directions to counter
> the resultant forces that would cause it to spin otherwise.
> How would you then turn one? I believe you turn a helicopter by altering
the
> amount the tail rotor counters the tendency of the craft to spin? How
would
> you turn a helicopter that has no tail rotor.
>
> Wouldn't it make a fantastic little commuter vehicle! Straight out of your
> backyard, to the nearest park to your work, pack it all up, and walk
inside.
> Just image the resultant mess that could be created as every Tom Dick and
> Harry started going to and from work on one.
> Could make a day in the park with your kids pretty messy as the morons we
> get on our roads everyday, decide to start landing these things there
> instead of creating their usual brand of havoc on the freeways.
> Would we end up with Riceboy versions? with huge sound systems, and
> colourchange paint jobs?
>
> Aaargh, I think I need to go lie down, the visions of such a world have
left
> me shaken to the core.
>
> Trentus
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

Hi Cam, where have you been hiding lately?

On such coaxial twin rotor systems, do they usually have a
differential between the two rotor drives? Also, do both rotors have
independant pitch control or is one fixed pitch?

I'm just curious. I like mainstream stuff myself.

Dennis.


"Cam" > wrote:

> Gidday, I'd imagine the yaw would be controlled by rotor torque
> differentiation
> or simple adjustable rudder type wings in the outer rotor disc wash.
> Move to the country and relax.
> I can't see car sized mosquitos buzzing around for a long long time .
> especially
> with modern attitudes like yours.
> Try alt.scooters.geriactric (just kidding)
>
> Cheers Trentus
> Cam.....
>
>
> > Pardon me while I drop my guard and flash my
> > No tail rotor?
> > I assume the twin sets of rotors turned in opposite directions to counter
> > the resultant forces that would cause it to spin otherwise.
> > How would you then turn one? I believe you turn a helicopter by altering
> the
> > amount the tail rotor counters the tendency of the craft to spin? How
> would
> > you turn a helicopter that has no tail rotor.
> >
> > Wouldn't it make a fantastic little commuter vehicle! Straight out of your
> > backyard, to the nearest park to your work, pack it all up, and walk
> inside.
> > Just image the resultant mess that could be created as every Tom Dick and
> > Harry started going to and from work on one.
> > Could make a day in the park with your kids pretty messy as the morons we
> > get on our roads everyday, decide to start landing these things there
> > instead of creating their usual brand of havoc on the freeways.
> > Would we end up with Riceboy versions? with huge sound systems, and
> > colourchange paint jobs?
> >
> > Aaargh, I think I need to go lie down, the visions of such a world have
> left
> > me shaken to the core.
> >
> > Trentus
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Trentus]

"Cam" > wrote in message
...
> Gidday, I'd imagine the yaw would be controlled by rotor torque
> differentiation
> or simple adjustable rudder type wings in the outer rotor disc wash.
> Move to the country and relax.
> I can't see car sized mosquitos buzzing around for a long long time .
> especially
> with modern attitudes like yours.
> Try alt.scooters.geriactric (just kidding)

What? You haven't seen all my posts at alt.scooter.geriactric? That's my
favourite newsgroup!

But on the serious side, I'm already feeling geriatric. I can finally afford
my HCPL due to an unexpected inheritance, but am seriously facing the
problem of being too old now to make any use of one - and I'm only 38 FCOL!

Why does everyone consider 40 to be OLD, I don't FEEL old. But I have had to
weigh into the equation a serious dose of the world's attitude toward 40
year olds when deciding whether to do my licence, cause that'll be the
attitudes of the people I'd be approaching for work.
I'd have enough money to do the licence, the night rating, the turbine
rating, and maybe even the instrument rating. But would still have only half
the hours I'd need to do anything useful with the licence. Without finding
work to increase those hours at someone else's expense, I'd never get those
hours up myself. But even with all the extra ratings, I'd expect a lot of
trouble finding flying work with the big FOUR O over the head.

Trentus

[[email protected]]

"Trentus" > wrote:

> But on the serious side, I'm already feeling geriatric. I can finally afford
> my HCPL due to an unexpected inheritance, but am seriously facing the
> problem of being too old now to make any use of one - and I'm only 38 FCOL!
>
> Why does everyone consider 40 to be OLD, I don't FEEL old. But I have had to
> weigh into the equation a serious dose of the world's attitude toward 40
> year olds when deciding whether to do my licence, cause that'll be the
> attitudes of the people I'd be approaching for work.

In the computer field, you are over the hill at 30.


Dennis.



Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
To find out what an H-1B is and how they are putting
Americans out of work, visit the following web site
and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news video:
http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Cam]

Wow, I tell you what , I really don't know! I'm just an engineering type , I
haven't thought of changing pitch on one rotor, thats got to be too simple
to be real. When I saw a picture of that system , i thought of the guts out
of a diff head (car) and how would you change the torque to one or the
other rotors without using an old automatic type brake system. I wonder
which would be harder to build?
Have a look at Dave Jackson's sites, He's been able to answer all my Q's so
far.
How has that Nolans brothers coaxial going?

Ps thats not Dennis from our forum is it?
<Cheers Cam

[Cam]

Hi Trentus, I hope I didn't **** you off with my post, I've been avoiding
opening this ng for backlash (couse i know what it can be like) The negitive
side gets me down sometimes when I've had a few beers.
It's good to see another 38 year old that isn't quite 40.
Congradulations on your use of your inheritance.
I hope you enjoy it to the max!

PS Can you wheelstand a motor bike with ease?
* Thats a question to all on this thread>>>>>>>
(38yrs or older)

Cheers Cam..............

[Trentus]

"Cam" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Trentus, I hope I didn't **** you off with my post, I've been avoiding
> opening this ng for backlash (couse i know what it can be like) The
negitive
> side gets me down sometimes when I've had a few beers.
> It's good to see another 38 year old that isn't quite 40.
> Congradulations on your use of your inheritance.
> I hope you enjoy it to the max!

Thanks Cam, nope you didn't **** me off at all. I took your post the way it
was intended.
Actually posts very rarely **** me off, If someone flames me over some
comment, then I usually just shrug it off, and generally feel sorry for
them, as almost all flames make the flamer look lamer than the flamee.

I haven't yet chosen to use the inheritance this way, though I'd sure love
to, but now I doubt I will, as it won't appear to get me any work, and
therefore I can think of far better things to do with $47,000 that will at
least increase my income a little.

But we'll wait and see. I could weaken very easily, or just use half of the
inheritance and do a private rather than commercial licence.

I keep hearing differing views on the work available.
Some say no work, others say that now all the vietnam trained pilots are
retiring and cities sprawling further and further, that there is far more
chopper work around, and that it will only continue to improve.
But even if it does, it will improve for the young before the older I'd
assume.

Trentus

[Al Denelsbeck]

"Trentus" > wrote in
:

> "Mr.Twistair" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Joss, this heli is slightly described at http://twistairclub.narod.ru
>> including photos of it's step-by-step unfolding. It wasn't ever
>> flown. The main reason why is mostly explained as "no suitable engine
>> which would fit this design that time". I've heard that it was
>> designed to be powered by small rotary engine but the engine wasn't
>> actually built (never run good enough - to be exact).
>
> Pardon me while I drop my guard and flash my ignorance to all and
> sundry.
>
> No tail rotor?
> I assume the twin sets of rotors turned in opposite directions to
> counter the resultant forces that would cause it to spin otherwise.
> How would you then turn one? I believe you turn a helicopter by
> altering the amount the tail rotor counters the tendency of the craft
> to spin? How would you turn a helicopter that has no tail rotor.


Sorry about coming into this so late...

The coaxial rotor helicopters have fully-articulated rotors on both
heads. Yawing is acheived by increasing the pitch on one (and probably
decreasing the pitch on the other simultaneously, so no increase in overall
lift). This produces more drag from one head, less from the other, so the
anti-torque effect is minimized and the aircraft rotates against the
increased pitch rotor.

I, personally, would like to see a closeup of the swash plate and
links assembly, to see how they manage to get past the lower head to
articulate the upper. Everything I've thought of so far leaves out some
aspect of either collective, cyclic, or precession.


- Al.

--
To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain

[terra]

Al Denelsbeck wrote:
> I, personally, would like to see a closeup of the swash plate and
> links assembly, to see how they manage to get past the lower head to
> articulate the upper. Everything I've thought of so far leaves out some
> aspect of either collective, cyclic, or precession.

This makes it all so clear...
http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Rotorhead/1363.html

[Al Denelsbeck]

terra > wrote in
:

> Al Denelsbeck wrote:
>> I, personally, would like to see a closeup of the swash
>> plate and
>> links assembly, to see how they manage to get past the lower head to
>> articulate the upper. Everything I've thought of so far leaves out
>> some aspect of either collective, cyclic, or precession.
>
> This makes it all so clear...
> http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Rotorhead/1363.html

Umm, yeah, kinda... ;-)

It's a good detail pic, thanks! Still hashing it out, but looks
roughly like my first suspicions. But something puzzles me, not being
involved in rotor design or maintenance: I was told, a long time back, that
because of precession, the cyclic input for forward flight, for instance.
occurred slightly ahead of the point where pitch was intended to be
greatest. In other words, a little advanced in the rotation from full rear
position on the rotor disk (much like ignition timing on a car, just for
different reasons). Easy enough to do on a standard rotor assembly, but
requires displacement to both sides on a coax. This doesn't seem to show
such a design, unless I'm missing it (entirely possible). Was I misinformed
long ago? Anyone?


- Al.

--
To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain

[PW]

"Al Denelsbeck" > wrote in message
. 8...
> terra > wrote in
> :
>
> > Al Denelsbeck wrote:
> >> I, personally, would like to see a closeup of the swash
> >> plate and
> >> links assembly, to see how they manage to get past the lower head to
> >> articulate the upper. Everything I've thought of so far leaves out
> >> some aspect of either collective, cyclic, or precession.
> >
> > This makes it all so clear...
> > http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Rotorhead/1363.html
>
> Umm, yeah, kinda... ;-)
>
> It's a good detail pic, thanks! Still hashing it out, but looks
> roughly like my first suspicions. But something puzzles me, not being
> involved in rotor design or maintenance: I was told, a long time back,
that
> because of precession, the cyclic input for forward flight, for instance.
> occurred slightly ahead of the point where pitch was intended to be
> greatest. In other words, a little advanced in the rotation from full rear
> position on the rotor disk (much like ignition timing on a car, just for
> different reasons). Easy enough to do on a standard rotor assembly, but
> requires displacement to both sides on a coax. This doesn't seem to show
> such a design, unless I'm missing it (entirely possible). Was I
misinformed
> long ago? Anyone?
>
>
> - Al.
>
> --
> To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain

Precession and dyssemetry of lift are cancled in coaxials as far as I know.