Bill Gawthrop "F8" Accident - Sun 07/13/2014 - His Status

[WaltWX[_2_]]

Bill Gawthrop who won the U.S. Open Nationals at Montague on July 3rd, is doing well after the crash of his beautiful JS-1c Jet at Truckee, CA. I have not talked directly with Bill, only his wife Dianne. The circumstances of the crash remain unclear, but seem to be unrelated to any mechanical issues.. Wind shear or a downdraft near the approach end of Truckee runway 20 may have been a factor. Bill was returning from a 800km flight up to and beyond Crater Lake Oregon. This was his first soaring flight since the Nationals.

Dianne reported to me at 1pm today from the Reno Renown Regional Medical Center that Bill took his first walk. He has four broken vertebrae that are stable fractures and will not require surgery. His ankle braces/boots "...are very fashionable". Rehabilitation starts at a nearby center tomorrow, Saturday July 19th. Bill will be in Rehab there in Reno for awhile.

Bill, we wish you the best in your recovery. Looking forward to having you join us again in the sky!

Walt Rogers WX

[Sean Fidler]

That is great news. Thanks for the update.

On Friday, July 18, 2014 5:00:35 PM UTC-4, WaltWX wrote:
> Bill Gawthrop who won the U.S. Open Nationals at Montague on July 3rd, is doing well after the crash of his beautiful JS-1c Jet at Truckee, CA. I have not talked directly with Bill, only his wife Dianne. The circumstances of the crash remain unclear, but seem to be unrelated to any mechanical issues. Wind shear or a downdraft near the approach end of Truckee runway 20 may have been a factor. Bill was returning from a 800km flight up to and beyond Crater Lake Oregon. This was his first soaring flight since the Nationals.
>
>
>
> Dianne reported to me at 1pm today from the Reno Renown Regional Medical Center that Bill took his first walk. He has four broken vertebrae that are stable fractures and will not require surgery. His ankle braces/boots "...are very fashionable". Rehabilitation starts at a nearby center tomorrow, Saturday July 19th. Bill will be in Rehab there in Reno for awhile.
>
>
>
> Bill, we wish you the best in your recovery. Looking forward to having you join us again in the sky!
>
>
>
> Walt Rogers WX

[[email protected]]

Thanks Walt - we've all been worried...

2T

On Friday, 18 July 2014 14:00:35 UTC-7, WaltWX wrote:
> Bill Gawthrop who won the U.S. Open Nationals at Montague on July 3rd, is doing well after the crash of his beautiful JS-1c Jet at Truckee, CA. I have not talked directly with Bill, only his wife Dianne. The circumstances of the crash remain unclear, but seem to be unrelated to any mechanical issues. Wind shear or a downdraft near the approach end of Truckee runway 20 may have been a factor. Bill was returning from a 800km flight up to and beyond Crater Lake Oregon. This was his first soaring flight since the Nationals.
>
>
>
> Dianne reported to me at 1pm today from the Reno Renown Regional Medical Center that Bill took his first walk. He has four broken vertebrae that are stable fractures and will not require surgery. His ankle braces/boots "...are very fashionable". Rehabilitation starts at a nearby center tomorrow, Saturday July 19th. Bill will be in Rehab there in Reno for awhile.
>
>
>
> Bill, we wish you the best in your recovery. Looking forward to having you join us again in the sky!
>
>
>
> Walt Rogers WX

[[email protected]]

On Friday, July 18, 2014 2:00:35 PM UTC-7, WaltWX wrote:

Thanks Walt - all best wishes to Bill and Dianne for full and speedy recovery.

[John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]]

On Friday, July 18, 2014 5:00:35 PM UTC-4, WaltWX wrote:
> Bill Gawthrop who won the U.S. Open Nationals at Montague on July 3rd, is doing well after the crash of his beautiful JS-1c Jet at Truckee, CA. I have not talked directly with Bill, only his wife Dianne. The circumstances of the crash remain unclear, but seem to be unrelated to any mechanical issues. Wind shear or a downdraft near the approach end of Truckee runway 20 may have been a factor. Bill was returning from a 800km flight up to and beyond Crater Lake Oregon. This was his first soaring flight since the Nationals.
>
>
>
> Dianne reported to me at 1pm today from the Reno Renown Regional Medical Center that Bill took his first walk. He has four broken vertebrae that are stable fractures and will not require surgery. His ankle braces/boots "...are very fashionable". Rehabilitation starts at a nearby center tomorrow, Saturday July 19th. Bill will be in Rehab there in Reno for awhile.
>
>
>
> Bill, we wish you the best in your recovery. Looking forward to having you join us again in the sky!
>
>
>
> Walt Rogers WX

Many thanks for the update Walt. Wishing Bill a thorough recovery and return to the skies.
QT

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

Bill was not the first to hit the cliff at Truckee and
sadly, he won't be the last. I can remember 3 others. When a south wind comes to the cliff, it follows the terrain down, we call this "sink at the approach end of 19". When the reported wind is over 10 knots I don't fly past the cliff, simply fly my base leg parallel to and not past the cliff, turning final at 150 feet.
Speedy recovery, Bill
JJ

[Mike I Green]

On 7/19/2014 5:56 AM, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> Bill was not the first to hit the cliff at Truckee and
> sadly, he won't be the last. I can remember 3 others. When a south wind comes to the cliff, it follows the terrain down, we call this "sink at the approach end of 19". When the reported wind is over 10 knots I don't fly past the cliff, simply fly my base leg parallel to and not past the cliff, turning final at 150 feet.
> Speedy recovery, Bill
> JJ
>
Likewise.

MG

--
Mike I Green

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:56:29 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> Bill was not the first to hit the cliff at Truckee and
>
> sadly, he won't be the last. I can remember 3 others. When a south wind comes to the cliff, it follows the terrain down, we call this "sink at the approach end of 19". When the reported wind is over 10 knots I don't fly past the cliff, simply fly my base leg parallel to and not past the cliff, turning final at 150 feet.
>
> Speedy recovery, Bill
>
> JJ

Wow, that's shocking. It must be time to do something about that.

One thing that would obviously help would be to remove the motivation to land short over the cliff. When I was there last there were two turnoffs that gliders used. One is actually before the airplane aim point marking and the other is just a little past it. How about creating a new turnoff area that is significantly further down field and then stop using those two close in turnoffs. I suppose it would either take some very stern policy or maybe mechanical barriers to eliminate the temptation of the more convenient access to the tie down area via the existing short turnoffs.

Sorry to be kibitzing from the peanut gallery.

Truly my best wishes are for Bill. His speedy recovery is the most important matter for now.

[Ramy[_2_]]

JJ, I am not sure about the recommendation to turn base to final at 150 feet over the threshold from the following reasons:
1- it requires a very low base to final in a turbulent area if you want to be able to make the turn off.
2- it is hard to judge that you are indeed not slightly past the cliff. The problem is that slightly past the cliff is the absolutely worst place to do your base to final since this is the area with the strongest sink. It is a narrow area, exactly where you would expect to find ridge lift if the wind was from opposite direction.
So my preference normally is to do my base a little further downwind where I don't expect to find sink, and do a high steep final with nearly full spoilers and extra 10 knots for energy, so hopefully I am high enough over the threshold not to hit the sink, and if I do, hopefully closing the spoilers and the extra energy will overcome the sink effect on the glide. There shouldn't be much sink at more than twice the cliff heights, say 200 feet above.

I just posted the above to the soartruckee yahoo group where I think this should be discussed further. Please join the discussion there.

Ramy

[Frank Whiteley]

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 10:37:43 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:56:29 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>
> > Bill was not the first to hit the cliff at Truckee and
>
> >
>
> > sadly, he won't be the last. I can remember 3 others. When a south wind comes to the cliff, it follows the terrain down, we call this "sink at the approach end of 19". When the reported wind is over 10 knots I don't fly past the cliff, simply fly my base leg parallel to and not past the cliff, turning final at 150 feet.
>
> >
>
> > Speedy recovery, Bill
>
> >
>
> > JJ
>
>
>
> Wow, that's shocking. It must be time to do something about that.
>
>
>
> One thing that would obviously help would be to remove the motivation to land short over the cliff. When I was there last there were two turnoffs that gliders used. One is actually before the airplane aim point marking and the other is just a little past it. How about creating a new turnoff area that is significantly further down field and then stop using those two close in turnoffs. I suppose it would either take some very stern policy or maybe mechanical barriers to eliminate the temptation of the more convenient access to the tie down area via the existing short turnoffs.
>
>
>
> Sorry to be kibitzing from the peanut gallery.
>
>
>
> Truly my best wishes are for Bill. His speedy recovery is the most important matter for now.

What happened to the third turnoff? The reason I ask is that on my first landing there in my DG-100 I announced I'd take the first, then second, and finally made the third. My first high altitude airport;^) The wheel brake wasn't very effective alas.

Frank Whiteley

[Darryl Ramm]

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 4:01:06 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Saturday, July 19, 2014 10:37:43 AM UTC-6, wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:56:29 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > Bill was not the first to hit the cliff at Truckee and
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > sadly, he won't be the last. I can remember 3 others. When a south wind comes to the cliff, it follows the terrain down, we call this "sink at the approach end of 19". When the reported wind is over 10 knots I don't fly past the cliff, simply fly my base leg parallel to and not past the cliff, turning final at 150 feet.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Speedy recovery, Bill
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > JJ
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Wow, that's shocking. It must be time to do something about that.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > One thing that would obviously help would be to remove the motivation to land short over the cliff. When I was there last there were two turnoffs that gliders used. One is actually before the airplane aim point marking and the other is just a little past it. How about creating a new turnoff area that is significantly further down field and then stop using those two close in turnoffs. I suppose it would either take some very stern policy or maybe mechanical barriers to eliminate the temptation of the more convenient access to the tie down area via the existing short turnoffs.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Sorry to be kibitzing from the peanut gallery.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Truly my best wishes are for Bill. His speedy recovery is the most important matter for now.
>
>
>
> What happened to the third turnoff? The reason I ask is that on my first landing there in my DG-100 I announced I'd take the first, then second, and finally made the third. My first high altitude airport;^) The wheel brake wasn't very effective alas.
>
>
>
> Frank Whiteley

By what you mean by "third turnout" it is still there, about 1,500 feet from the displaced threshold. It is really part of the second turnout to the left and you can roll into the third/straighter ahead one at higher speed if you cant make the sharp turn. And if somebody messes up there is another turnout before the runway intersection to the right 2,300' from the threshold to get off runway 20. The Soar Truckee ops folks are amongst the best around, so expect quick help if a glider ends up on the runway missing a turnout. I was always impressed with the pilot briefings and checkouts by Soar Truckee staff and proficiency of pilots flying out of there. Their yahoo newsgroup is the best place to discuss operations. Best wishes for Bill's recovery.

[jfitch]

On Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:37:43 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:56:29 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>
> > Bill was not the first to hit the cliff at Truckee and
>
> >
>
> > sadly, he won't be the last. I can remember 3 others. When a south wind comes to the cliff, it follows the terrain down, we call this "sink at the approach end of 19". When the reported wind is over 10 knots I don't fly past the cliff, simply fly my base leg parallel to and not past the cliff, turning final at 150 feet.
>
> >
>
> > Speedy recovery, Bill
>
> >
>
> > JJ
>
>
>
> Wow, that's shocking. It must be time to do something about that.
>
>
>
> One thing that would obviously help would be to remove the motivation to land short over the cliff. When I was there last there were two turnoffs that gliders used. One is actually before the airplane aim point marking and the other is just a little past it. How about creating a new turnoff area that is significantly further down field and then stop using those two close in turnoffs. I suppose it would either take some very stern policy or maybe mechanical barriers to eliminate the temptation of the more convenient access to the tie down area via the existing short turnoffs.
>
>
>
> Sorry to be kibitzing from the peanut gallery.
>
>
>
> Truly my best wishes are for Bill. His speedy recovery is the most important matter for now.

There are plenty of places to turn off of runway 20 at Truckee, even 4000 ft down the runway. There is the normal glider launch staging pad, later the high speed glider turnoff, later the access to the parallel taxiway, later runway 29, later still access to the 29 taxiway, and finally the runup area at the end. The line staff will be happy to come tow you back without complaint.

According to the eyewitnesses to Bill's incident, even the base leg was unusually low, for reasons unknown. He was in the vicinity well above normal pattern altitude, it was not a low return to the airport.

Landing on 20, it is best to plan for a short, steep, full spoilers - full flaps final as Ramy suggests. There is almost no danger in running long, even very long, and severe consequences of coming up short.

[Steve Koerner]

On Sunday, July 20, 2014 8:48:30 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Saturday, July 19, 2014 9:37:43 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:56:29 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > Bill was not the first to hit the cliff at Truckee and
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > sadly, he won't be the last. I can remember 3 others. When a south wind comes to the cliff, it follows the terrain down, we call this "sink at the approach end of 19". When the reported wind is over 10 knots I don't fly past the cliff, simply fly my base leg parallel to and not past the cliff, turning final at 150 feet.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Speedy recovery, Bill
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > JJ
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Wow, that's shocking. It must be time to do something about that.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > One thing that would obviously help would be to remove the motivation to land short over the cliff. When I was there last there were two turnoffs that gliders used. One is actually before the airplane aim point marking and the other is just a little past it. How about creating a new turnoff area that is significantly further down field and then stop using those two close in turnoffs. I suppose it would either take some very stern policy or maybe mechanical barriers to eliminate the temptation of the more convenient access to the tie down area via the existing short turnoffs.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Sorry to be kibitzing from the peanut gallery.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Truly my best wishes are for Bill. His speedy recovery is the most important matter for now.
>
>
>
> There are plenty of places to turn off of runway 20 at Truckee, even 4000 ft down the runway. There is the normal glider launch staging pad, later the high speed glider turnoff, later the access to the parallel taxiway, later runway 29, later still access to the 29 taxiway, and finally the runup area at the end. The line staff will be happy to come tow you back without complaint.
>
>
>
> According to the eyewitnesses to Bill's incident, even the base leg was unusually low, for reasons unknown. He was in the vicinity well above normal pattern altitude, it was not a low return to the airport.
>
>
>
> Landing on 20, it is best to plan for a short, steep, full spoilers - full flaps final as Ramy suggests. There is almost no danger in running long, even very long, and severe consequences of coming up short.

I'm sure that you're right about the turnoff options but I'm also pretty sure that you missed my point. Anyway, no big deal. I'm sure the Truckee regulars and the Truckee operator will address the problem. If it can happen to F8, it can happen to anyone.

[nimbus[_2_]]

For what it's worth, I have about 5 flights in the 18m JS-1. These flights were conducted in wave and thermals and from my little experience in the JS-1, I was thoroughly impressed with it's handling characteristics, especially at slow speeds. It was extremely easy to fly and even in rotor, handled exceptionally well at slow speeds at various bank angles. There weren't any sneaky things about it throughout all flight regimes.
Personally I think it's totally coincidental that several accidents occurred in the JS-1C within a relatively short time period. I sat through Uys Jonker's talk at the convention and if my memory serves me correctly, he mentioned that during flight testing, the JS-1C was fully loaded with water, then water depleted from one wing, and then the aircraft intentionally spun into the heavy wing with a successful recovery. Pretty impressive. It's a really strong glider.
I'm not making any comparisons to other similar sailplanes. Just my take on the JS-1.

Thanks,
Gordon Boettger

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

Planning to come in high and use a steep approach with full spoilers is a fine idea, but what does the guy do that finds himself low and slow a few feet below the cliff? Isn't that where Bill found himself? If you don't fly over the cliff when the wind is up, you can't hit the cliff.
JJ

[[email protected]]

On Monday, July 21, 2014 11:16:13 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> Planning to come in high and use a steep approach with full spoilers is a fine idea, but what does the guy do that finds himself low and slow a few feet below the cliff? Isn't that where Bill found himself? If you don't fly over the cliff when the wind is up, you can't hit the cliff.
>
> JJ

A glider did once "crash" land in the lower area there of the Martis Valley/Glenshire. Amazingly he walked away. Many rocks and obstacles to avoid there not to mention the downwash.

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Monday, July 21, 2014 11:16:13 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> Planning to come in high and use a steep approach with full spoilers is a fine idea, but what does the guy do that finds himself low and slow a few feet below the cliff? Isn't that where Bill found himself? If you don't fly over the cliff when the wind is up, you can't hit the cliff.
>
> JJ

JJ, I agree that low and slow below the cliff is the worst place to be, but this should not happen if turning base high enough, unless you hit a microburst as happen to you, in this case I would not go beyond the threshold. Of course if someone found himself too low on downwind should of course turn base early and land long on the runway. I think trying to stay in front of the thershold and at the same time make the high speed turn off is the worst combination. Either turn base early ad land long, or turn high base to final behind the threshold with plenty of spoilers and eneregy, and manage your energy once you pass the cliff to make the high speed turnoff.

Ramy

[Tom Kelley #711]

On Friday, July 18, 2014 3:00:35 PM UTC-6, WaltWX wrote:
> Bill Gawthrop who won the U.S. Open Nationals at Montague on July 3rd, is doing well after the crash of his beautiful JS-1c Jet at Truckee, CA. I have not talked directly with Bill, only his wife Dianne. The circumstances of the crash remain unclear, but seem to be unrelated to any mechanical issues. Wind shear or a downdraft near the approach end of Truckee runway 20 may have been a factor. Bill was returning from a 800km flight up to and beyond Crater Lake Oregon. This was his first soaring flight since the Nationals.
>
>
>
> Dianne reported to me at 1pm today from the Reno Renown Regional Medical Center that Bill took his first walk. He has four broken vertebrae that are stable fractures and will not require surgery. His ankle braces/boots "...are very fashionable". Rehabilitation starts at a nearby center tomorrow, Saturday July 19th. Bill will be in Rehab there in Reno for awhile.
>
>
>
> Bill, we wish you the best in your recovery. Looking forward to having you join us again in the sky!
>
>
>
> Walt Rogers WX

I received an email from F8 yesterday, Sunday, July 20th. Bill appears to be in good spirits. He said another 6 to 8 weeks of therapy and was expecting to return to competition again next summer. Again Bill, Godspeed in your recovery and looking forward to racing with you somewhere next summer.

Best..#711.

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

You say "it should not happen", but it did happen (and 3 other times too). I think a change in procedures is called for. How about the Soar Truckee announcing, "Alternate approach procedures are in affect", any time the south wind is over 10 knots. All pilots briefed to fly base leg over and not beyond the cliff, turning final about 150 feet. Many of the old Truckee guys did this and made the glider turn off easily.

My micro-burst landing never came close to the cliff. I was hit with unbelievable sink just after announcing, "JJ is on a left downwind to 19 Truckee".. I immediately turned 90 degrees left and sped up to 80knots. Both vario's remained pegged full down as I watched the trees rising on my canopy. At about 100 feet the sink stopped and I cleared the trees, but I was now approaching the runway at right angles. Just then I was hit with a severe roll to the left. Full right stick and rudder stopped the left roll at about a 45 degree left attitude. It just so happened that a 45 degree left turn was just what was needed to line up with 19. The left roll subsided at about 50 feet and I relaxed the right stick and rudder I was holding and found the controls centered about 10 feet AGL, flared, touched down smoothly, and made the glider turn-off. It should be obvious that I was little more than concerned observer to the foregoing.
JJ

[jfitch]

On Monday, July 21, 2014 3:19:05 PM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> You say "it should not happen", but it did happen (and 3 other times too).. I think a change in procedures is called for. How about the Soar Truckee announcing, "Alternate approach procedures are in affect", any time the south wind is over 10 knots. All pilots briefed to fly base leg over and not beyond the cliff, turning final about 150 feet. Many of the old Truckee guys did this and made the glider turn off easily.
>
>
>
> My micro-burst landing never came close to the cliff. I was hit with unbelievable sink just after announcing, "JJ is on a left downwind to 19 Truckee". I immediately turned 90 degrees left and sped up to 80knots. Both vario's remained pegged full down as I watched the trees rising on my canopy. At about 100 feet the sink stopped and I cleared the trees, but I was now approaching the runway at right angles. Just then I was hit with a severe roll to the left. Full right stick and rudder stopped the left roll at about a 45 degree left attitude. It just so happened that a 45 degree left turn was just what was needed to line up with 19. The left roll subsided at about 50 feet and I relaxed the right stick and rudder I was holding and found the controls centered about 10 feet AGL, flared, touched down smoothly, and made the glider turn-off. It should be obvious that I was little more than concerned observer to the foregoing.
>
> JJ

JJ,

It's runway 20 now that the earth's axis has shifted :).

I am confused as to how your proposed change of operations would have aided your landing experience, since the end of the runway was never in play. Of course microburst can occur anywhere in the mountains, but 10 knots of south wind is average afternoon conditions at Truckee, with 600 to 800 glider landings each season. There have been a couple over the years come up short, in most of the cases weather was not much of a factor if a factor at all. It is normally more turbulent with a West wind, due to the trees to the west, but then one has the choice of runway 29.

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

Ramy associated my micro-burst landing with the cliff, I was clearing that up. FOUR pilots have hit the cliff at Truckee, two in G-103's, one in a DG-200 and Bill.
Time to do something to prevent the FIFTH.
JJ

[[email protected]]

On Monday, July 21, 2014 6:06:26 PM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> FOUR pilots have hit the cliff at Truckee, two in G-103's, one in a DG-200 and Bill.

I know a DG-300 hit the cliff, if there was a DG-200 it was yet another incident. To be fair, one of those G103s had the spoilers jam full open on final, and a DG-400 also hit the cliff with one spoiler jammed open. One should also include those who stalled and pancaked in at the threshold of 19/20 during a low approach, I would be one (cracked the tailwheel and delaminated the lower rudder hinge), another was a 2-33 (pretty extensively damaged), and I vaguely remember at least one more.

[SoaringXCellence]

On Monday, July 21, 2014 7:07:36 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Monday, July 21, 2014 6:06:26 PM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>
> > FOUR pilots have hit the cliff at Truckee, two in G-103's, one in a DG-200 and Bill.
>
>
>
> I know a DG-300 hit the cliff, if there was a DG-200 it was yet another incident. To be fair, one of those G103s had the spoilers jam full open on final, and a DG-400 also hit the cliff with one spoiler jammed open. One should also include those who stalled and pancaked in at the threshold of 19/20 during a low approach, I would be one (cracked the tailwheel and delaminated the lower rudder hinge), another was a 2-33 (pretty extensively damaged), and I vaguely remember at least one more.

OK, I'm convinced, Truckee is off my list!

[Ramy[_2_]]

soaringXcellence truckee is a great and safe place to fly. The only risk is if you do a low approach to make sure you hit the first turnoff. Otherwise you have long runway to safely land, and a cross runway as well with no cliff to deal with.
JJ, I completely agree with you that there is a problem which we need to address, but respectfully disagree with your solution to do a low base to final just in front of the threshold. I am pretty sure the common to all the crashes was either mechanical problem or low approach. I will be interested to know if any accident ever happened with a high steep approach as i recommend. Unless the wind is over 20 knots (not 10) I rather make my base at a safe distance behind the threshold and at sate altitude and do a high steep approach with extra energy, amd if i overshoot the turnoff so be it. Of course if someone end up low on downwind they should not turn base behind the cliff under any circumstance.
We should really move this discussion to the soartruckee mailing list as i suggetsed earlier.

Ramy

[noel.wade]

> OK, I'm convinced, Truckee is off my list!

FYI I grew up spending a week every summer in a log-cabin (literally; no power and only a little running water) near Truckee. I was just a ridge NE from Donner Lake, and I have to say its a stunningly-beautiful area and probably has great soaring (not to mention being just an hour's drive from Reno so its easy to combo a trip to both Truckee and Minden).

I'm really looking forward to trying it myself sometime soon; I'll just be sure to be conservative in my landing pattern. Almost all ships from the late-1970's on have good dive-brakes and slip effectively when in landing configuration, so there's no reason to ever do a low approach (intentionally).... I'd rather be safe - and, if I'm being honest, I need the extra exercise that a long push back to the tiedowns might give me anyways. ;-)

--Noel

[BruceGreeff]

You know - people go on about dangerous sites. And some sites are a lot
more challenging than others.

However, it is generally people flying outside their competence, or
outside the bounds of good airmanship who contribute most to crash
statistics.

Much more important is that - at any active soaring field, there will be
a list of crashes at that site.

That does not make the site a no-fly zone. It indicates levels of
activity, and probably difficulty.

If the posters who say - "That takes it off my list of places to fly",
do so because of a sober assessment of their own capabilities and/or
appetite for risk - Good call. But don't say I will not fly at
x-airfield because others have crashed there.

It is perfectly possible to fly safely where others crash. sometimes it
is an "act of God" - think microburst. Sometimes it is a mechanical
failure. Generally it is a train of little misjudgements...

On 2014-07-22 04:07, wrote:
> On Monday, July 21, 2014 6:06:26 PM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>> FOUR pilots have hit the cliff at Truckee, two in G-103's, one in a DG-200 and Bill.
>
> I know a DG-300 hit the cliff, if there was a DG-200 it was yet another incident. To be fair, one of those G103s had the spoilers jam full open on final, and a DG-400 also hit the cliff with one spoiler jammed open. One should also include those who stalled and pancaked in at the threshold of 19/20 during a low approach, I would be one (cracked the tailwheel and delaminated the lower rudder hinge), another was a 2-33 (pretty extensively damaged), and I vaguely remember at least one more.
>

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 02:07 22 July 2014, wrote:
>On Monday, July 21, 2014 6:06:26 PM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>> FOUR pilots have hit the cliff at Truckee, two in G-103's, one in a
>DG-20=
>0 and Bill.
>
>I know a DG-300 hit the cliff, if there was a DG-200 it was yet another
>inc=
>ident. To be fair, one of those G103s had the spoilers jam full open on
>fi=
>nal, and a DG-400 also hit the cliff with one spoiler jammed open. One
>sho=
>uld also include those who stalled and pancaked in at the threshold of
>19/2=
>0 during a low approach, I would be one (cracked the tailwheel and
>delamina=
>ted the lower rudder hinge), another was a 2-33 (pretty extensively
>damaged=
>), and I vaguely remember at least one more.
>
2 cases of spoilers jamming open, co-incidentally at an airfield where
being short is critical. In 50 years of gliding I have never actually heard
of a case of spoilers jamming open before. Weird you might think.

[WAVEGURU]

Well there you have it! There MUST be something about this airport that causes spoilers to stick open...

Boggs

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 14:03 22 July 2014, Waveguru wrote:
>Well there you have it! There MUST be something about this airport that
>causes spoilers to stick open...
>
>Boggs

Perhaps they should get Mulder and Scully to look into that before it
becomes a real problem and spreads to the rest of the world.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 5:24:33 AM UTC-7, Don Johnstone wrote:
> 2 cases of spoilers jamming open, co-incidentally at an airfield where
> being short is critical. In 50 years of gliding I have never actually heard
> of a case of spoilers jamming open before. Weird you might think.

Not so weird, really, just coincidence at an airport where spoiler problems end up being critical. In the DG-400 accident, a spoiler pushrod disconnected (probably not seated properly on the ball, no safety pin), the spoiler sucked open and stayed there due to aerodynamic forces. In the G103 accident, the spoiler stops were worn beyond tolerances, so the spoiler fences went up too high, then aerodynamic forces caused them to foul on the upper wing surfaces on the way down. I believe that accident led to a fleet-wide G103 service bulletin.

[jfitch]

On Monday, July 21, 2014 7:42:30 PM UTC-7, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> On Monday, July 21, 2014 7:07:36 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> > On Monday, July 21, 2014 6:06:26 PM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > FOUR pilots have hit the cliff at Truckee, two in G-103's, one in a DG-200 and Bill.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I know a DG-300 hit the cliff, if there was a DG-200 it was yet another incident. To be fair, one of those G103s had the spoilers jam full open on final, and a DG-400 also hit the cliff with one spoiler jammed open. One should also include those who stalled and pancaked in at the threshold of 19/20 during a low approach, I would be one (cracked the tailwheel and delaminated the lower rudder hinge), another was a 2-33 (pretty extensively damaged), and I vaguely remember at least one more.
>
>
>
> OK, I'm convinced, Truckee is off my list!

In the 20+ years over which these 4 incidents have occurred, Soar Truckee has conducted something like 18,000 glider operations, nearly all of them landing on runway 20 (used to be 19). While 4 incidents is 4 too many, it is not a high percentage of operations. All of those 4 would have been prevented by planning a high, full spoiler final, even the ones with mechanical malfunctions. There are certainly many popular soaring sites with more challenging airport conditions (and worse safety records) than Truckee.

[Bill D]

Truckee sounds much like Boulder, CO where there is very likely to be severe sink and wind shear on the approach to Rwy 26 in west wind conditions. A special "west wind checkout" teaches pilots to turn base opposite the numbers and plan a very steep, full-spoiler approach. If the sink is worse than expected, closing spoilers gives a pilot a chance to save the day. I've watched an 90 knot approach turn into a 55 knot approach at about 100' AGL as wind shear robbed me of airspeed. The approach went from looking way too high and fast to just about right in a couple of seconds.

Undershoots have happened - but instead of a cliff, the under-run to the glider runway is a grassy up-slope so if the glider isn't too low, the result is likely to be limited to embarrassment.

[[email protected]]

>There are certainly many popular soaring sites with more challenging >airport conditions (and worse safety records) than Truckee.

I have flown at many glider sites in the west including Truckee and Boulder, but nothing comes my mind as having very challenging airport conditions. Can you share with us which sites are more challenging and/or have worse safety records than Truckee?

To be clear, I don't feel Truckee to be too challenging or dangerous. I just want to know which sites I should be careful when I fly there.

[[email protected]]

My understanding is Telluride Co. is particularly challenging. Perhaps someone with local knowledge can discuss.

[jfitch]

On Friday, July 25, 2014 1:27:20 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> >There are certainly many popular soaring sites with more challenging >airport conditions (and worse safety records) than Truckee.
>
>
>
> I have flown at many glider sites in the west including Truckee and Boulder, but nothing comes my mind as having very challenging airport conditions. Can you share with us which sites are more challenging and/or have worse safety records than Truckee?
>
>
>
> To be clear, I don't feel Truckee to be too challenging or dangerous. I just want to know which sites I should be careful when I fly there.

I don't want to condemn any particular site, each of them has its own character and challenges. However a routine search of the NTSB accident database for the most recent 13 years of popular sites nearby shows:

Truckee 5 accidents, none fatal, 3 while landing
Minden 13 accidents, 3 fatalities, 5 while landing
Air Sailing 7 accidents, 1 fatal, 4 while landing
Williams 5 accidents, 1 fatal, 2 while landing

Truckee does not stand out as being particularly dangerous. You should be careful at all soaring sites!

[Andy K]

On Wednesday, July 30, 2014 4:36:43 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> On Friday, July 25, 2014 1:27:20 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> > >There are certainly many popular soaring sites with more challenging >airport conditions (and worse safety records) than Truckee.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I have flown at many glider sites in the west including Truckee and Boulder, but nothing comes my mind as having very challenging airport conditions. Can you share with us which sites are more challenging and/or have worse safety records than Truckee?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > To be clear, I don't feel Truckee to be too challenging or dangerous. I just want to know which sites I should be careful when I fly there.
>
>
>
> I don't want to condemn any particular site, each of them has its own character and challenges. However a routine search of the NTSB accident database for the most recent 13 years of popular sites nearby shows:
>
>
>
> Truckee 5 accidents, none fatal, 3 while landing
>
> Minden 13 accidents, 3 fatalities, 5 while landing
>
> Air Sailing 7 accidents, 1 fatal, 4 while landing
>
> Williams 5 accidents, 1 fatal, 2 while landing
>
>
>
> Truckee does not stand out as being particularly dangerous. You should be careful at all soaring sites!

What is the total number of flights in each of the places. Makes a big difference.

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, July 30, 2014 2:51:22 PM UTC-7, Andy K wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 30, 2014 4:36:43 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
>
> > On Friday, July 25, 2014 1:27:20 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > >There are certainly many popular soaring sites with more challenging >airport conditions (and worse safety records) than Truckee.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I have flown at many glider sites in the west including Truckee and Boulder, but nothing comes my mind as having very challenging airport conditions. Can you share with us which sites are more challenging and/or have worse safety records than Truckee?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > To be clear, I don't feel Truckee to be too challenging or dangerous. I just want to know which sites I should be careful when I fly there.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I don't want to condemn any particular site, each of them has its own character and challenges. However a routine search of the NTSB accident database for the most recent 13 years of popular sites nearby shows:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Truckee 5 accidents, none fatal, 3 while landing
>
> >
>
> > Minden 13 accidents, 3 fatalities, 5 while landing
>
> >
>
> > Air Sailing 7 accidents, 1 fatal, 4 while landing
>
> >
>
> > Williams 5 accidents, 1 fatal, 2 while landing
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Truckee does not stand out as being particularly dangerous. You should be careful at all soaring sites!
>
>
>
> What is the total number of flights in each of the places. Makes a big difference.

Very hard to come by that information. Order of magnitude they are about the same. Educated guess would be Williams doing the most (because they operate all year and are pretty active). Based on radio activity Minden probably a little more than Truckee (at least in private tows), with Air Sailing following.

My point is that the site has less to do with the accident rate than many other factors. And the number of accidents is actually quite small compared to operations, and so not particularly predictive of anything - too small a sample size. If you pick one of these sites over another based on safety, I would assert that you would be doing so without much evidence. They are all good sites, each with its challenges.

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

> My point is that the site has less to do with the accident rate than many other factors. And the number of accidents is actually quite small compared to operations, and so not particularly predictive of anything - too small a sample size. If you pick one of these sites over another based on safety, I would assert that you would be doing so without much evidence. They are all good sites, each with its challenges.



Truckee is only open 5 months a year, but is compared to year round operations. If corrected to year round, Truckee's stats would more than double!

Joe Finley was killed attempting to return to Truckee, late in the day. His crash was not on airport property, but I believe his death rightfully belongs on Truckee's stats.

Fred Fronds was severely injured and his ship destroyed when he was caught under a micro-burst (near a thunderstorm) on down-wind to 19, Truckee.

Truckee is a beautiful place to fly and has a group of dedicated followers, but it appears some are in denial of 3 increased risk factors:

1. Truckee is hard to get back into, late in the day.

2. Truckee has increased chance of thunderstorms, late in the day.

3. Cliff at approach end to runway 20 that has claimed 5 (and counting).

JJ Sinclair

[jfitch]

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 7:31:59 AM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> > My point is that the site has less to do with the accident rate than many other factors. And the number of accidents is actually quite small compared to operations, and so not particularly predictive of anything - too small a sample size. If you pick one of these sites over another based on safety, I would assert that you would be doing so without much evidence. They are all good sites, each with its challenges.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Truckee is only open 5 months a year, but is compared to year round operations. If corrected to year round, Truckee's stats would more than double!
>
>
>
> Joe Finley was killed attempting to return to Truckee, late in the day. His crash was not on airport property, but I believe his death rightfully belongs on Truckee's stats.
>
>
>
> Fred Fronds was severely injured and his ship destroyed when he was caught under a micro-burst (near a thunderstorm) on down-wind to 19, Truckee.
>
>
>
> Truckee is a beautiful place to fly and has a group of dedicated followers, but it appears some are in denial of 3 increased risk factors:
>
>
>
> 1. Truckee is hard to get back into, late in the day.
>
>
>
> 2. Truckee has increased chance of thunderstorms, late in the day.
>
>
>
> 3. Cliff at approach end to runway 20 that has claimed 5 (and counting).
>
>
>
> JJ Sinclair

JJ,

As you know, Minden and Air Sailing are also (effectively) 5 - 6 month operations. Williams is the only true 12 month operation in our area.

I'm not sure who is in denial. Truckee is more difficult to get back to at the end of the day than Minden, but pilots must always respect the terrain over which they fly. Joe Findley's crash was closer to Minden than Truckee, had he made other decisions he could easily have landed Minden or Carson (I flew out of and returned to Truckee that same day as did many others). There have been crashes in the mountains surrounding Minden and Air Sailing over the years - do we blame the airports for those? There was a mid-air with a jet a while ago, glider took off from Minden. Was that due to the increased jet traffic around Minden, and thus Minden is risky?

There have been more landing accidents at Minden than Truckee in the last 13 years, and more at Air Sailing. Is this due to runway conditions there? A few of the Minden landing accidents are attributed to strong turbulence and downdrafts by the NTSB. Several other accidents were off field landings because Minden could not be reached. There have been several mid air breakups of gliders flying out of Minden. A dangerous place to fly?

At Truckee, you always have the choice of runway 29, unobstructed at both ends and a mile long. It is always the pilot's decision on which to land.

Every site has its own challenges. I cannot agree that, on the whole, Truckee is more or less safe than the other sites in the area. I do not believe the accident statistics tell any other story.

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

After I posted my last thoughts on flying at Truckee, I ripped several stringers for the fuselage of the Zanonia replica I am building for the Southwest Soaring Museum. As I watched the whirling blade of my table saw, I had a thought; "I avoid loosing a finger in that spinning blade the same way I avoid the increased hazards of flying at Truckee":

1. I fully acknowledge the existence of the threat.

2.I give the threat my up most attention.

3. I avoid the threat when possible.

Some handle the increased threat by never using a table saw. Others (like me) continue to use the table saw, but acknowledge the threat it poses and give it the full attention it deserves. Anyone who uses a table saw without acknowledging the threat is asking for a trip to the ER!

Enjoy Truckee, my friend, but stay vigilant to its spinning blades!

JJ

PS, Minden and Air Sailing would not agree with the part-time status you have assigned to them.

[Bruce Hoult[_2_]]

On 2014-07-31 14:31:59 +0000, JJ Sinclair said:

> 3. Cliff at approach end to runway 20 that has claimed 5 (and counting).

I just looked at a map.

That runway is 4500 ft long! I can't see any reason why you'd go
downwind of the cliff if conditions were at all dodgy. Well, certainly
not more than a 1:1 glide from it. There is absolutely zero chance of
damage from overshooting and landing long.

I appreciate that the gliding facilities are at the near end of the
runway, so you'd like to land reasonably short, but even if you aim to
touch down somewhere on the 1000 ft markers like the big boys do, a
glider should be able to take the (apparent) high speed exit 100m later
with ease.

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 7/31/2014 6:05 PM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On 2014-07-31 14:31:59 +0000, JJ Sinclair said:
>
>> 3. Cliff at approach end to runway 20 that has claimed 5 (and counting).
>
> I just looked at a map.
>
> That runway is 4500 ft long! I can't see any reason why you'd go downwind of
> the cliff if conditions were at all dodgy. Well, certainly not more than a 1:1
> glide from it. There is absolutely zero chance of damage from overshooting and
> landing long.
>
> I appreciate that the gliding facilities are at the near end of the runway, so
> you'd like to land reasonably short, but even if you aim to touch down
> somewhere on the 1000 ft markers like the big boys do, a glider should be able
> to take the (apparent) high speed exit 100m later with ease.
>

Just happened to see this before signing off...

Never having been to Truckee, having no first-hand knowledge of any of its
crunches, and having many flights from Boulder, CO, where if you arrive short
from the east on west wind days (which tend to be gnarly due to upwind big
mountains and the dropoff at the end of the grass-covered alluvial fan atop
which the airport sits), and being an observer of human nature (think
"convenience", "doing things by rote", etc.) never rule out human nature as
the cause for aiming for the threshold of a runway.

I recall a "What were you THINKing?!?" conversation with a (rather
white-faced) glider guy who'd nearly put his ship in the lake on an approach
to the other end of the alluvial fan airport on a benign day while practicing
short-field, spot landings. Apparently, until he had the experience which
scared him, it'd never occurred to him that maybe he should've displaced his
aimimg point down the runway a bit from the actual threshold. (He did draw the
right conclusion on his own, I'm happy to report; I asked him!)

That noted, your mental reaction and mine tend to be similar...

Bob W.

P.S. Having experienced 3 microburst events (3 different locations) - each of
which led to "Right now!" landing patterns, I can honestly report that on 2 of
the 3 I merely targeted "somewhere along the runway" as my aiming point; the
remaining one (not so bad as the others) I targeted midfield. No damage on
any, but one Happy Camper after each. Patterns for the two worst ones began
above 3k' agl, and the (timed) less-bad one had me on the ground and stopped
within 60 seconds of encountering the m-burst...w/o ever using any of my
large-deflection landing flaps until on VERY short final. Paraphrasing Abe
Lincoln, were it not for the "honor of things" I'd just as soon forgone each
of the experiences...

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 5:18:01 PM UTC-4, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> As I watched the whirling blade of my table saw, I had a thought; "I avoid loosing a finger in that spinning blade the same way I avoid the increased hazards of flying at Truckee"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoBbEZwlk#t=92

When I was contemplating the purchase of a table saw over a period of about a year or so, I spoke to four or five professional carpenters about the digits that had they lost to table saws. They all know the proper way to use the tool and they have years of practice. They all know that a properly maintained and adjusted tool is still inherently dangerous. In less than a minute of discussion, each one of them honestly attributed their accidents to 'operator error'. I ended up buying a SawStop like in the video.

A cliff at the end of a particular runway does not induce pilot error and there is no SawStop silver bullet for gliding, but there are factors under my control that will reduce my chances of making an error on a particular flight. For example, using good hydration and relief systems and planning to keep my flight duration under my personal limit.

It is striking to me a relative newbie, that there is so little discussion of the causes of pilot error wrt particular accidents. I agree that we should be respectful and not criticize an injured pilot. But, it would be useful to hear people reflect on mistakes that they made (and survived) 'back in the day'. Lots of you guys have had accidents and close calls. To what do you attribute your 'pilot error'? Did you change anything in your routine?

Do I really have to make all of the same mistakes on my own time?

[jfitch]

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 5:05:55 PM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On 2014-07-31 14:31:59 +0000, JJ Sinclair said:
>
>
>
> > 3. Cliff at approach end to runway 20 that has claimed 5 (and counting)..
>
>
>
> I just looked at a map.
>
>
>
> That runway is 4500 ft long! I can't see any reason why you'd go
>
> downwind of the cliff if conditions were at all dodgy. Well, certainly
>
> not more than a 1:1 glide from it. There is absolutely zero chance of
>
> damage from overshooting and landing long.
>
>
>
> I appreciate that the gliding facilities are at the near end of the
>
> runway, so you'd like to land reasonably short, but even if you aim to
>
> touch down somewhere on the 1000 ft markers like the big boys do, a
>
> glider should be able to take the (apparent) high speed exit 100m later
>
> with ease.

I continue the discussion not to change JJ's mind (that is already made up) but as an alternative viewpoint for others unfamiliar with the area.

Bruce you are absolutely correct that the runway is very long: to my knowledge no glider has ever run long (I've never seen one even pass the runway intersection, leaving more than a thousand feet in hand). You can plan your final to be about a 2:1 glide to the end, touch at about the VASI lights using full spoilers, and still easily make the turnoff. The other runway (29) is 7000 ft if you feel the 4650 ft of 20 is too crowded.

In my opinion, the characterization of the hazards at Truckee as a threat "like spinning blades", and to "avoid the threat when possible" is a grossly exaggerated metaphor. The hazard at the threshold of 20 is 100% mitigable - to zero risk - by a high steep approach. If you are unable or unwilling to plan a high steep approach perhaps you shouldn't be landing on the end of 20. Tens of thousands of operations have been able to accomplish it. Similarly returning to Truckee in the afternoon is 100% mitigable, reducing the risk to a short air retrieve from one of the many nearby airports. Again one must have the discipline to do it. Microburst is never 100% mitigable, anywhere, nevertheless at Truckee thunderstorms are usually fairly limited in size, not terribly frequent, well forecast, and there are usually many escapes to wait it out or land elsewhere.

Other sites in the area have hazards as well. While I agree with JJ's point that one should not ignore them, if you are looking for hazard free flying the western high desert is not the place to fly.

I would like to know how many tows Minden and Air Sailing do between October and April. Even Williams is closed two days a week, so really only a 8.5 month operation.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 18:45:52 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

> Do I really have to make all of the same mistakes on my own time?
>
That seems to be the only way that significant numbers of people ever
learn anything outside of school (and maybe in school too). Myself not
necessarily excluded from this generalisation.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Bruce Hoult[_2_]]

On 2014-08-01 07:10:51 +0000, jfitch said:

> In my opinion, the characterization of the hazards at Truckee as a
> threat "like spinning blades", and to "avoid the threat when possible"
> is a grossly exaggerated metaphor. The hazard at the threshold of 20 is
> 100% mitigable - to zero risk - by a high steep approach. If you are
> unable or unwilling to plan a high steep approach perhaps you shouldn't
> be landing on the end of 20.

I think cliffs of various sizes are common at the end of many airports,
and certainly gliding fields.

Every summer we go for a gliding camp at the farm strip just above
center in this photo (with cars (and a gazebo) at the left of the near
end, and glider trailers near the middle. It's near Taihape in New
Zealand.

http://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/t1.0-9/165249_483271893939_5172763_n.jpg


There's quite a cliff at the near end, and a smaller one at the far end.

There's quite a slope away from the camera (which is looking west) so
normally we takeoff away from the camera and land towards it, but in
winds over about 15 knots we operate conventionally.

For normal landings we encourage people to use an aiming point
somewhere around the far end of the glider trailers (and there is a
windsock and a petrol trailer there) or at most the tree on the other
side of the strip.

In the event of a PTT early after takeoff, the done thing is to carry
on over the river and land in fields a km past it (right next to where
we actually put up our tents, as it happens).

I've got an iPhone 4 video showing operations from the side here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xrsNm9kJ5s


The center of the strip is at
http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&z=17&q=-39.8114,175.99


Nearer to home, one of our students made a video including approaches
to both ends of a farm topdressing strip that is about 15 km from our
home field. It also has slope and (smallish, but deadly) drop-offs at
both ends.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJapUCeDeOI

The actual aproaches start at 2:37 and 4:39 if you don't want to sit
through it all. Just after the first approach (from 2:58 to 3:11)
shows what you get on downwind if you choose to do a left hand circuit
for the 2nd approach (or in the other direction for a right hand
circuit for the first approach).

We take students starting to spread their wings but not ready for full
on cross country yet to this strip and give a log book endorsement that
they are to stay within final glide of either the home field or this
one. We'd certainly expect them to be able to handle any of the four
approaches (2x landing direction, 2x circuit direction) to it,
depending on conditions.

if you can't, you're not ready for proper cross country, with the
strong possibility of landing somewhere you've never seen before.

This strip is close enough to home that there is no tug repositioning
cost for an aerotow retrieve, if there is other towing going on at home
-- just the cost of a normal 2000 ft tow.

This strip is at http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&z=17&q=-40.8147,175.1465

[Tony[_5_]]

Maybe I missed it...any update on Bill?

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:45:52 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

> Do I really have to make all of the same mistakes on my own time?

No - it's a lot more entertaining if you come up with your own ;^)

[JS]

Tony, I was wondering too.
But staying on topic is impossible.
Jim


On Friday, August 1, 2014 6:42:41 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> Maybe I missed it...any update on Bill?

[jfitch]

On Friday, August 1, 2014 6:42:41 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> Maybe I missed it...any update on Bill?

Bill is out of the hospital in a rehab facility, walking, doing very well!

[WaltWX[_2_]]

I talked with Bill Thursday night 08/31. He was being released from Rehab center and coming home to Yorkville, CA on Friday. He sounded good and is looking forward to being home.

[Dave Nadler]

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 11:21:21 AM UTC-4, WaltWX wrote:
> I talked with Bill Thursday night 08/31. He was being released
> from Rehab center and coming home to Yorkville, CA on Friday.
> He sounded good and is looking forward to being home.

Great news!
Thanks for the update,
Best Regards, Dave

[JS]

Excellent news.
Jim

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

>
> Truckee 5 accidents, none fatal, 3 while landing
>
> Minden 13 accidents, 3 fatalities, 5 while landing
>
> Air Sailing 7 accidents, 1 fatal, 4 while l

Just checked the NTSB site and found accidents going back to 1992.........

Truckee 13 glider accidents, 1 fatal. Including the G-102 vs Aero Commander mid-air where the Grob was struck from behind at 10,000 feet. Prop almost severed the tail boom, but the oxygen bottle prevented complete separation. Glider pilot did not have a parachute and was forced to try and land. He said every time he gave any elevator input, the whole rear end of his ship would move around the nearly severed boom! Outstanding airmanship! He walked away!
Keep it safe out there,
JJ

PS, To be fair, Minden shows 22 glider accidents, 5 fatal going back to 1993.
Keep it doubly safe out there!

[jfitch]

On Sunday, August 3, 2014 3:42:41 PM UTC-7, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> >
>
> > Truckee 5 accidents, none fatal, 3 while landing
>
> >
>
> > Minden 13 accidents, 3 fatalities, 5 while landing
>
> >
>
> > Air Sailing 7 accidents, 1 fatal, 4 while l
>
>
>
> Just checked the NTSB site and found accidents going back to 1992..........
>
>
>
> Truckee 13 glider accidents, 1 fatal. Including the G-102 vs Aero Commander mid-air where the Grob was struck from behind at 10,000 feet. Prop almost severed the tail boom, but the oxygen bottle prevented complete separation. Glider pilot did not have a parachute and was forced to try and land. He said every time he gave any elevator input, the whole rear end of his ship would move around the nearly severed boom! Outstanding airmanship! He walked away!
>
> Keep it safe out there,
>
> JJ
>
>
>
> PS, To be fair, Minden shows 22 glider accidents, 5 fatal going back to 1993.
>
> Keep it doubly safe out there!

My figures were only back to 2000.

The baby Grob was repaired and still flying. Aero Commander pilot was head down programming his GPS and struck the Grob with its wing, loosing something like 8' of wing which fell on the Northstar parking lot. He also landed safely back at Truckee.

BTW, Bill's flight is on OLC if you want to guess what happened.

Do keep it safe!

[Ramy[_2_]]

JJ, for the sake of fairness you should adjust the number of fatalities all sites mentioned. They all incorrect.

Ramy

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

On Monday, August 4, 2014 9:16:07 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> JJ, for the sake of fairness you should adjust the number of fatalities all sites mentioned. They all incorrect.
>
>
>
> Ramy

OK, the NTSB shows.........................

Minden, 23 accidents, 6 fatal

Air sailing, 7 accidents, 0 fatal (incorrect, I can remember 2)

Truckee, 13 accidents, 1 fatal (+ Joe Finley trying to get back into town)

Williams, 6 accidents, 1 fatal

Holly-Molly, that's 49 dings and 11 brethren, no longer with us in Region 11, over the last 22 years! At least I didn't make the list, (here) My dings were all out of town!
Cheers,
JJ