Glider pilot rolls inverted and exits at 1400 feet AGL

[son_of_flubber]

http://news.stv.tv/tayside/282807-pilot-taken-to-hospital-after-as-two-gliders-collide-in-mid-air/

[son_of_flubber]

On Sunday, July 27, 2014 7:14:48 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> http://news.stv.tv/tayside/282807-pilot-taken-to-hospital-after-as-two-gliders-collide-in-mid-air/

My first take on the story was that control was lost after the collision and that he just happened to be inverted when he exited. Based on the numbers given he lost 600 feet after the collision.

Do aerobatic-versed pilots plan this inverted exit strategy in advance? It seems rather fast and efficient.

[[email protected]]

If g forces loaded you up, exiting a deep cockpit would be a challenge. Rolling inverted would not necessarily unload the aircraft and allow you to fall out.
Could be a mad scramble...

Mark

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, July 28, 2014 10:22:42 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

> Do aerobatic-versed pilots plan this inverted exit strategy in advance? It seems rather fast and efficient.

No. If you have enough control to roll inverted, you can probably land the glider.

After a midair, who knows what the plane will do.

And taking the time to roll upside down (real slooowww in a glider) is a poor choice most of the time, when all you have to do is undo your straps and slam the stick forward - if you get more than 1 negative G that's the same as falling out from an upside down cockpit.

But practically, after a midair your glider will probably either be spinning (loss of most a a wing?) or diving steeply (loss of tail controls) so the trick is to get out any way you can RIGHT NOW and not go for style points.

The "roll upside down and drop out" comes from situations in planes where you still had control but had to get out - like a fire, or out of fuel over unlandable terrain. Common advice in WW2 fighter manuals.

Of course, if you are upside down as a result of a midair, I sure wouldn't try to roll rightside up before getting out!


Kirk
66

[Ramy[_2_]]

Pushing the stick hard forward (assuming you still have some control) is one of the best advice I heard for exiting the cockpit. Probably something to add to mental bailout practices, as it may not be intuitive during bail out. Thanks Kirk for that advice.

Ramy

[Steve Koerner]

On Monday, July 28, 2014 8:55:12 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> Pushing the stick hard forward (assuming you still have some control) is one of the best advice I heard for exiting the cockpit. Probably something to add to mental bailout practices, as it may not be intuitive during bail out. Thanks Kirk for that advice.
>
>
>
> Ramy

I agree. I've never heard that advise before and it makes darn good sense. I've been doing 40 dips, 3 times a week to make sure that I have a fighting chance to get out of the cockpit. Pushing the stick forward sounds a heck of a lot easier than all those damn dips that I do.

[JS]

Assuming the tail is still connected!
It's possible to land inverted (too many Gs to bail out) and fly many national records afterwards.
Jim

[[email protected]]

wouldn't your glider pitch up and whack you after you released the stick?

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 00:40:36 -0700, cat.jardini wrote:

> wouldn't your glider pitch up and whack you after you released the
> stick?

Not necessarily. IIRC there was a case in Australia some years back when
a Std Cirrus bunted violently from level flight, throwing the pilot out
through the canopy. He parachuted down while the glider flew, inverted,
in circles round him all the way down and eventually landed some 10-20
metres away.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 2:40:36 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> wouldn't your glider pitch up and whack you after you released the stick?

Unlikely - it will just return to 1 g or so, not rebound. Bigger problem is hitting the tail - although your relative speed difference will still be pretty low. Good idea to protect your head or wear a helmet (depending on who you thermal with!).

A pointed TE probe might hurt, though!

Like I said earlier - this was a common practice in pre-ejection seat fighters - there is even some good gun-camera footage showing German pilots "popping" out of their cockpits while being shot down by P-51s or P-47s; the only way that could happen is either a good shove on the stick, or (if you have time) by running in full forward trim while holding back the stick then letting go. You see the pilot move away from his plane, not slamming back into the tail. And the negative G only lasts for a second or so, not really long enough to change the plane's flight path.

So a childhood reading all the books I could find about fighter planes turned out to be kinda useful...

Kirk

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 3:40:36 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> wouldn't your glider pitch up and whack you after you released the stick?

On my SZD glider with trim adjustment independent of the stick, I suppose I could (in theory) set the trim position all the way forward, and then just let go of the stick, belts already off, when I was ready. Glider go down momentarily.

Even with the trim set for level flight, the glider would take a second to return to level flight after you let go of the stick and hopefully you would be clear by then.

[John Carlyle]

Kirk has a lot of good ideas! I, too, will keep the "push the stick forward to help get out" maneuver in mind. If that doesn't work, though, seven years ago on RAS Kirk suggested a last resort maneuver:

"You can't get out of the cockpit. Last resort, (canopy gone) is to unstrap, lean forward as far as you can (pull yourself using the instrument panel), then pull the rip-cord. You WILL be extracted from the glider."

I sincerely hope that I never have to use either maneuver!

-John, Q3

On Monday, July 28, 2014 2:22:50 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Monday, July 28, 2014 10:22:42 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > Do aerobatic-versed pilots plan this inverted exit strategy in advance? It seems rather fast and efficient.
>
> No. If you have enough control to roll inverted, you can probably land the glider.
>
> After a midair, who knows what the plane will do.
>
> And taking the time to roll upside down (real slooowww in a glider) is a poor choice most of the time, when all you have to do is undo your straps and slam the stick forward - if you get more than 1 negative G that's the same as falling out from an upside down cockpit.
>
> But practically, after a midair your glider will probably either be spinning (loss of most a a wing?) or diving steeply (loss of tail controls) so the trick is to get out any way you can RIGHT NOW and not go for style points.
>
> The "roll upside down and drop out" comes from situations in planes where you still had control but had to get out - like a fire, or out of fuel over unlandable terrain. Common advice in WW2 fighter manuals.
>
> Of course, if you are upside down as a result of a midair, I sure wouldn't try to roll rightside up before getting out!
>
> Kirk
> 66

[Dan Marotta]

If you have the time and control:

Jettison the canopy
Release the harness
Trim full nose down
Release the stick
Pull the D-ring (after safe separation from the aircraft)

If you can do all of the above, why jump? Unless you're on fire or over
unlandable terrain with nothing within reach. And why would any sane
pilot be there?

If no control:

Do what you gotta do to get out.

Dan Marotta

On 7/28/2014 9:55 PM, Ramy wrote:
> Pushing the stick hard forward (assuming you still have some control) is one of the best advice I heard for exiting the cockpit. Probably something to add to mental bailout practices, as it may not be intuitive during bail out. Thanks Kirk for that advice.
>
> Ramy

[Dan Marotta]

That maneuver may well have your parachute entangled in the tail of the
aircraft. Everything sounded great until the part about pulling the rip
cord. Better to get in the pulled up position and then roll right or
left out of the aircraft.

Dan Marotta

On 7/29/2014 7:48 AM, John Carlyle wrote:
> Kirk has a lot of good ideas! I, too, will keep the "push the stick forward to help get out" maneuver in mind. If that doesn't work, though, seven years ago on RAS Kirk suggested a last resort maneuver:
>
> "You can't get out of the cockpit. Last resort, (canopy gone) is to unstrap, lean forward as far as you can (pull yourself using the instrument panel), then pull the rip-cord. You WILL be extracted from the glider."
>
> I sincerely hope that I never have to use either maneuver!
>
> -John, Q3
>
> On Monday, July 28, 2014 2:22:50 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
>> On Monday, July 28, 2014 10:22:42 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
>>> Do aerobatic-versed pilots plan this inverted exit strategy in advance? It seems rather fast and efficient.
>> No. If you have enough control to roll inverted, you can probably land the glider.
>>
>> After a midair, who knows what the plane will do.
>>
>> And taking the time to roll upside down (real slooowww in a glider) is a poor choice most of the time, when all you have to do is undo your straps and slam the stick forward - if you get more than 1 negative G that's the same as falling out from an upside down cockpit.
>>
>> But practically, after a midair your glider will probably either be spinning (loss of most a a wing?) or diving steeply (loss of tail controls) so the trick is to get out any way you can RIGHT NOW and not go for style points.
>>
>> The "roll upside down and drop out" comes from situations in planes where you still had control but had to get out - like a fire, or out of fuel over unlandable terrain. Common advice in WW2 fighter manuals.
>>
>> Of course, if you are upside down as a result of a midair, I sure wouldn't try to roll rightside up before getting out!
>>
>> Kirk
>> 66

[Mark628CA]

The advice to use negative G forces to extract yourself from the glider is valuable, but be aware that if your instrument panel is fixed, your legs may become trapped and a bailout will be much more difficult and probably very painful. You could even suffer broken legs, which will make the parachute landing really awful.

Do what you have to do, but try to avoid leaving parts of yourself in the cockpit.

[John Galloway[_1_]]

Not that straightforward Dan - you can have control from
damaged tailplane and then lose it when the damaged tailplane
departs. It is a very difficult judgement - one that I hope
never to have to make.

If the glider was controllable and I was able to climb I would
stay with it as long as possible to gain as much height and time
to assess the situation and to mentally prepare to jump or land.
There might be another glider nearby whose pilot could help
with the assessment.

John Galloway

At 15:43 29 July 2014, Dan Marotta wrote:
>If you have the time and control:
>
>Jettison the canopy
>Release the harness
>Trim full nose down
>Release the stick
>Pull the D-ring (after safe separation from the aircraft)
>
>If you can do all of the above, why jump? Unless you're on
fire or over
>unlandable terrain with nothing within reach. And why would
any sane
>pilot be there?
>
>If no control:
>
>Do what you gotta do to get out.
>
>Dan Marotta
>
>On 7/28/2014 9:55 PM, Ramy wrote:
>> Pushing the stick hard forward (assuming you still have
some control) is
>one of the best advice I heard for exiting the cockpit. Probably
something
>to add to mental bailout practices, as it may not be intuitive
during bail
>out. Thanks Kirk for that advice.
>>
>> Ramy
>
>

[John Carlyle]

Dan, the key words were "last resort", ie, desperation time. Also, on the ground I am unable to roll out of the cockpit with a chute on my back from the normal seating position, much less while pulling myself as far forward as I can get. I think I can forget about being able to roll out while airborne under G loads, but maybe adrenaline would work wonders. I hope I never find out...

-John, Q3

On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 11:48:20 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> That maneuver may well have your parachute entangled in the tail of the
> aircraft. Everything sounded great until the part about pulling the rip
> cord. Better to get in the pulled up position and then roll right or
> left out of the aircraft.
>
> Dan Marotta
>
> On 7/29/2014 7:48 AM, John Carlyle wrote:
> > Kirk has a lot of good ideas! I, too, will keep the "push the stick forward to help get out" maneuver in mind. If that doesn't work, though, seven years ago on RAS Kirk suggested a last resort maneuver:
> >
> > "You can't get out of the cockpit. Last resort, (canopy gone) is to unstrap, lean forward as far as you can (pull yourself using the instrument panel), then pull the rip-cord. You WILL be extracted from the glider."
> >
> > I sincerely hope that I never have to use either maneuver!
> >
> > -John, Q3

[kirk.stant]

This is all "Last Resort" stuff!

I can see a situation where you get sucked up into a Cu-Nim without gyros and lose control - as you accelerate through Vne and flutter starts, the negative g push technique will probably work pretty well - since you will be in a hi-G spiral with little chance to just roll out of the cockpit!

With a midair, who knows? If you are lucky your glider spits you out and all you have to do is pull the ripcord... but if your tail is chopped off or you lose a wing, all bets are off.

And the "lean forward and pull the ripcord" is an absolute last chance "die with your boots on" move. Good chance you will be severely banged up in the process, and it may not work if you hangup on the tail, but it would beat the option of riding the glider in, I would think...

Fun to think about, but I would rather not put it to the test. That's one of the reasons I have a PowerFlarm (and Dan has a transponder).

Kirk

[Bill D]

Perhaps this thread could benefit from a first person perspective. (i.e. been there)

Situation: Mid air collision - major damage to left wing - glider turning left even with full right aileron and rudder.

Assessment: Glider minimally controllable - bailout imminent.

Action 1: Jettison doors (this was a Pratt-Read) to prepare for immediate egress.

Review situation: Left turn appears to be stable at 10 - 15 degree bank. Terrain 4000 feet below is flat and reasonably clear of obstacles. Glider is actually still climbing - is this good?

Conclusion: Bailout less than urgent. If glider can be made to descend into level terrain, it should result in a mild ground loop which might be less dangerous than a bailout.

Action 2: Initiate descent with full spoilers.

Result: Open spoiler on damaged left wing did not increase drag significantly but the one on the undamaged wing did - glider rolls level but still requires 75% right aileron and rudder. Glider is now partially controllable. Is it enough for a landing attempt?

Plan: Straight in approach to airfield. Review situation again before descending to 2500' AGL. If not good, initiate bailout above 2500'.

Result: Successful landing on airport property.

Review: Examination of damage revealed that the wing structure was significantly weakened. Had this been known in flight it would have likely resulted in a decision to abandon the glider.



On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 9:43:35 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
> If you have the time and control:
>
>
>
> Jettison the canopy
>
> Release the harness
>
> Trim full nose down
>
> Release the stick
>
> Pull the D-ring (after safe separation from the aircraft)
>
>
>
> If you can do all of the above, why jump?� Unless you're on fire
> or over unlandable terrain with nothing within reach.� And why
> would any sane pilot be there?
>
>
>
> If no control:
>
>
>
> Do what you gotta do to get out.
>
>
>
> Dan Marotta
> On 7/28/2014 9:55 PM, Ramy wrote:
>
>
>
> Pushing the stick hard forward (assuming you still have some control) is one of the best advice I heard for exiting the cockpit. Probably something to add to mental bailout practices, as it may not be intuitive during bail out. Thanks Kirk for that advice.
>
> Ramy

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

Individual experiences may or may not be a good basis for future decisions, but 2 UK instances come to mind.

Well known pilot collided, found he had control (as did the other) and decided to bring it in to a landing rather than bale out. Tail came off at about 1000 feet, too low to bale out now, and he died.

More recently, another well known pilot had collision, glider uncontrollable, bunted, and it took all his strength and 3/4 round the outside loop before he got the canopy off and got out. Survived with relatively minor injuries. (The other landed OK.)

After the first, several people in the BGA decided that baling out was safer that hoping a damaged tail (or whatever) would keep on and permit a landing.

It seems that staying in and hoping to land is decided upon without enough information. Bill's story suggests the same.

(I don't think I could get out anyway - with infirmity, I can only just get out unaided, minus parachute, on the ground. I have Flarm and PCAS - and wish I had a BRS.)

Chris N

[Dan Marotta]

I guess I wasn't clear in my meaning.

I should have said that, after pulling yourself up by the instrument
panel (I assume your butt is out of the seat), rather than opening your
chute on the center line of the aircraft, it would be preferable to lean
yourself to one side and, hopefully, you'd go under the wing. Even if
you hit the wing or tail, your speed relative to the glider would be
very low and shouldn't cause much more than a bruise. On the other
hand, if you deploy your chute while standing hunched over in the
cockpit, your chances of a miserable ride to the ground while attached
to the tail of the aircraft are significantly increased.

Your life is in your hands at this point and it would do you well
(that's everyone) to know what to do and realize that things most likely
won't happen as you plan. I won't need the time for adrenaline to build
up since I've taken the initiative to get jump training.

Dan Marotta

On 7/29/2014 10:57 AM, John Carlyle wrote:
> Dan, the key words were "last resort", ie, desperation time. Also, on the ground I am unable to roll out of the cockpit with a chute on my back from the normal seating position, much less while pulling myself as far forward as I can get. I think I can forget about being able to roll out while airborne under G loads, but maybe adrenaline would work wonders. I hope I never find out...
>
> -John, Q3
>
> On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 11:48:20 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> That maneuver may well have your parachute entangled in the tail of the
>> aircraft. Everything sounded great until the part about pulling the rip
>> cord. Better to get in the pulled up position and then roll right or
>> left out of the aircraft.
>>
>> Dan Marotta
>>
>> On 7/29/2014 7:48 AM, John Carlyle wrote:
>>> Kirk has a lot of good ideas! I, too, will keep the "push the stick forward to help get out" maneuver in mind. If that doesn't work, though, seven years ago on RAS Kirk suggested a last resort maneuver:
>>>
>>> "You can't get out of the cockpit. Last resort, (canopy gone) is to unstrap, lean forward as far as you can (pull yourself using the instrument panel), then pull the rip-cord. You WILL be extracted from the glider."
>>>
>>> I sincerely hope that I never have to use either maneuver!
>>>
>>> -John, Q3

[Pam Howarth]

Amazing; 19 posts and no one has mentioned DG's "NOAH"
system.
Jettison canopy and pull one handle, it automatically
disconnects the straps and "ejects" pilot within a second or so.
See:-
http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/index.php?id=noah-e

[Andy K]

On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 3:47:33 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I guess I wasn't clear in my meaning.
>
>
>
> I should have said that, after pulling yourself up by the instrument
>
> panel (I assume your butt is out of the seat), rather than opening your
>
> chute on the center line of the aircraft, it would be preferable to lean
>
> yourself to one side and, hopefully, you'd go under the wing. Even if
>
> you hit the wing or tail, your speed relative to the glider would be
>
> very low and shouldn't cause much more than a bruise. On the other
>
> hand, if you deploy your chute while standing hunched over in the
>
> cockpit, your chances of a miserable ride to the ground while attached
>
> to the tail of the aircraft are significantly increased.
>
>
>
> Your life is in your hands at this point and it would do you well
>
> (that's everyone) to know what to do and realize that things most likely
>
> won't happen as you plan. I won't need the time for adrenaline to build
>
> up since I've taken the initiative to get jump training.
>
>
>
> Dan Marotta
>
>
>
> On 7/29/2014 10:57 AM, John Carlyle wrote:
>
> > Dan, the key words were "last resort", ie, desperation time. Also, on the ground I am unable to roll out of the cockpit with a chute on my back from the normal seating position, much less while pulling myself as far forward as I can get. I think I can forget about being able to roll out while airborne under G loads, but maybe adrenaline would work wonders. I hope I never find out...
>
> >
>
> > -John, Q3
>
> >
>
> > On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 11:48:20 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> >> That maneuver may well have your parachute entangled in the tail of the
>
> >> aircraft. Everything sounded great until the part about pulling the rip
>
> >> cord. Better to get in the pulled up position and then roll right or
>
> >> left out of the aircraft.
>
> >>
>
> >> Dan Marotta
>
> >>
>
> >> On 7/29/2014 7:48 AM, John Carlyle wrote:
>
> >>> Kirk has a lot of good ideas! I, too, will keep the "push the stick forward to help get out" maneuver in mind. If that doesn't work, though, seven years ago on RAS Kirk suggested a last resort maneuver:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> "You can't get out of the cockpit. Last resort, (canopy gone) is to unstrap, lean forward as far as you can (pull yourself using the instrument panel), then pull the rip-cord. You WILL be extracted from the glider."
>
> >>>
>
> >>> I sincerely hope that I never have to use either maneuver!
>
> >>>
>
> >>> -John, Q3

It is really sad that most people do not receive an adequate training how to leave a glider. When I started flying at the age of 16 not only I went through hours of ground training that included leaving a glider being in all possible positions but I also I had to make a real jump. I consider myself very fortunate I received this training at the beginning of my flying experience.

On another note I was also fortunate to receive aerobatic training in a glider which I consider another desired training.

I would suggest aerobatic training to every glider pilot as well as good emergency training.

I bet someone could make good money running a training class like that in the USA.

I hope no one reading this post will ever need this skill, but having the skill greatly increases your chances of survival.

In the past I read accident reports where pilots did not know if they were in a spiral or spin. That is a result of very poor training as well.

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 4:16:46 PM UTC-4, Pam Howarth wrote:
> Amazing; 19 posts and no one has mentioned DG's "NOAH"
> system.

I wonder how many of those have been sold and whether any have been deployed in flight yet.

Likewise are the ballistic whole plane parachutes that give you more time to bail out.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, July 28, 2014 11:14:48 AM UTC+12, son_of_flubber wrote:
> http://news.stv.tv/tayside/282807-pilot-taken-to-hospital-after-as-two-gliders-collide-in-mid-air/

Can anyone advise the make of the two sailplanes involved.

John

[Ramy[_2_]]

And where they using Flarm?

Ramy

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 08:19 31 July 2014, Ramy wrote:
>And where they using Flarm?
>
>Ramy

No Flarms. There exists a difference of views at the Scottish Gliding
Centre
as to whether Flarm alerts have a net benefit for gliders on our local
ridge
overflying two villages. The worry is that pilots could be alarmed by
alarms
and thus overloaded.

John Galloway

[Peter Higgs]

Does anyone know what trajectory a glider takes when the pilot jumps out?
The loss of weight forward of the C/G would upset the trim by a significant
amount.... More so if the glider was inverted.

[Ramy[_2_]]

An amazing photo of the bailout just emerged:
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Huntingdon-St-Ives-St-Neots/Pilot-pictured-baling-out-after-mid-air-crash-near-St-Neots-20140731101407.htm

Ramy

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 10:33:49 -0700, Ramy wrote:

> An amazing photo of the bailout just emerged:
> http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Huntingdon-St-Ives-St-Neots/Pilot-
pictured-baling-out-after-mid-air-crash-near-St-Neots-20140731101407.htm
>
That's a different bailout.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Craig Funston]

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 10:46:39 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 10:33:49 -0700, Ramy wrote:
>
>
>
> > An amazing photo of the bailout just emerged:
>
> > http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Huntingdon-St-Ives-St-Neots/Pilot-
>
> pictured-baling-out-after-mid-air-crash-near-St-Neots-20140731101407.htm
>
> >
>
> That's a different bailout.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
>
> org |

Did either of those gliders have FLARM?

Craig

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:36:05 -0700, Craig Funston wrote:

> On Thursday, July 31, 2014 10:46:39 AM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 10:33:49 -0700, Ramy wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > An amazing photo of the bailout just emerged:
>>
>> > http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Huntingdon-St-Ives-St-Neots/Pilot-
>>
>> pictured-baling-out-after-mid-air-crash-near-St-
Neots-20140731101407.htm
>>
>>
>> >
>> That's a different bailout.
>>
> Did either of those gliders have FLARM?
>
Apparently neither of the gliders near Portmoak did (see earlier msg from
John Galloway). I haven't heard anything about the Cambridgeshire
collision apart from that it happened and that in both cases there was an
inverted bailout.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Ramy[_2_]]

Even more amazing and spooky if two nearly identical bailouts happened recently with similar results. It really bags the question about flarm in both midairs.

Ramy

[waremark]

I survived a midair unhurt in 2003; I was very lucky in several ways. The other glider took my tail off. My canopy broke off in the impact, and the glider bunted so that I was hanging by the straps in the open air.

I was very aware of the UK comp pilot fatality mentioned above when after a midair at 2,500 feet the tailpane fell off at 500 feet (my memory of an eyewitness account) and I had always worried about how to decide whether to jump out. I still do worry about it! When I had my midair, one of my first thoughts was 'at least in this case there is no doubt about whether I need to parachute'!

I only had to undo my straps and I fell out. I had a nasty cut on my ankle presumably because I did not think about drawing up my legs before undoing my straps but was otherwise completely unhurt (and the other guy, a friend, also parachuted and was also unhurt).

Noah sounds good - but I have only ever heard of it on the DG website.

[Gav Goudie[_2_]]

For what it's worth there have been 3 midairs resulting in bailouts in the
UK
since May. Two of them within about 5nm but 10 weeks apart (and not
originating at the same club), the other ~ 300nm away about 8 weeks after
the first)

As far as I know there were two FLARMS in the first, none in the second and

at least one in the latest.

Lookout remains the number one tool in our attempt to avoid hitting each
other, FLARM is a beneficial aid and I personally like it, but we must
know
how it works and how to interpret what it is telling us without forgetting
the
first bit.

It's your choice (or the choice is forced upon you) on what to do when it
happens but as I brief any P2s during my pre flight "when we have a midair

this is what I'm going to do, I suggest you join me"

GG


At 20:36 31 July 2014, Ramy wrote:
>Even more amazing and spooky if two nearly identical bailouts happened
>recently with similar results. It really bags the question about flarm in
>both midairs.
>
>Ramy
>

[[email protected]]

As Allen Silver says, it's CBB:

Canopy
Belts
Butts

and then call the ground for SILK1 arrival.

[Nick Gilbert]

True story - that was my Cirrus. Pilot undid harness.

Nick

On Tuesday, 29 July 2014 22:25:22 UTC+9:30, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 00:40:36 -0700, cat.jardini wrote:
>
>
>
> > wouldn't your glider pitch up and whack you after you released the
>
> > stick?
>
>
>
> Not necessarily. IIRC there was a case in Australia some years back when
>
> a Std Cirrus bunted violently from level flight, throwing the pilot out
>
> through the canopy. He parachuted down while the glider flew, inverted,
>
> in circles round him all the way down and eventually landed some 10-20
>
> metres away.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
>
> org |

[[email protected]]

> > a Std Cirrus bunted violently from level flight, throwing the pilot out
>
> >
>
> > through the canopy.

I'm not familiar with the term "bunted". What exactly does this mean?

Thanks.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 11:51:18 -0700, javelin77 wrote:

>> > a Std Cirrus bunted violently from level flight, throwing the pilot
>> > out
>>
>>
>> >
>> > through the canopy.
>
> I'm not familiar with the term "bunted". What exactly does this mean?
>
Flying part of an outside loop, typically starting from a climbing or
level flight. IOW if you've come fast through strong sink, suddenly hit
strong lift and zoom climb into it, you could describe the push-over to
gliding attitude at thermalling speed as a bunt.

From the Free dictionary: (Aeronautics) to cause (an aircraft) to fly in
part of an inverted loop or (of an aircraft) to fly in such a loop


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, July 31, 2014 1:33:49 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> An amazing photo of the bailout just emerged:

9 additional images released:

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/News/MORE-DRAMATIC-PICTURES-The-moment-glider-pilot-jumped-for-his-life-after-mid-air-collision-is-captured-on-camera-by-St-Neots-photographer-Martin-Boss-20140801122015.htm

[[email protected]]

I notice that he did not jettison his canopy, just opened it.
In the first frame you can see it still attached.

Still worked out ok.

[Dave Nadler]

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 10:21:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> I notice that he did not jettison his canopy, just opened it.
> Still worked out ok...

Please be sure you understand the bailout sequence for
any aircraft you fly. For SH gliders (as this appears
to be), jettisoning the (non-Roget-hook-equipped) canopy
can result in the canopy swinging sideways and hitting
you in the head and incapacitating you, or merely
breaking your jaw as happened to a friend of mine.
Consequently, IIRC the procedure was changed to open
only and do NOT pull the jettison knob.

Please be safe out there and MAKE SURE you know
your jettison procedure! Then periodically practice
on the ground...
Best Regards, Dave

[Bruce Hoult[_2_]]

On 2014-08-02 14:21:11 +0000, said:

> I notice that he did not jettison his canopy, just opened it.
> In the first frame you can see it still attached.
>
> Still worked out ok.

You seem to be able to see the canopy frame attached, but you can see
the canopy itself up to the left of the tailplane.

[Craig Funston]

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 8:14:49 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Saturday, August 2, 2014 10:21:11 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>
> > I notice that he did not jettison his canopy, just opened it.
>
> > Still worked out ok...
>
>
>
> Please be sure you understand the bailout sequence for
>
> any aircraft you fly. For SH gliders (as this appears
>
> to be), jettisoning the (non-Roget-hook-equipped) canopy
>
> can result in the canopy swinging sideways and hitting
>
> you in the head and incapacitating you, or merely
>
> breaking your jaw as happened to a friend of mine.
>
> Consequently, IIRC the procedure was changed to open
>
> only and do NOT pull the jettison knob.
>
>
>
> Please be safe out there and MAKE SURE you know
>
> your jettison procedure! Then periodically practice
>
> on the ground...
>
> Best Regards, Dave

Dave,

I'm curious about your comment regarding changes in recommended bailout procedures for SH type sailplanes. I don't find any reference to not jettisoning the canopy on the SH website and there are no listed changes to the Nimbus 3 flight manual. The FM recommends first opening the left side and then raising the canopy and pulling the hinge pins. This is the way I practice it, however, honestly I've never been convinced the canopy would really go away. Front release and a Roeger hook has always seemed like a better solution.

Glad to see that the UK pilot got away safely regardless of how it was accomplished.

Thanks,
Craig 7Q

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 04:18:17 +1200, Bruce Hoult wrote:

> On 2014-08-02 14:21:11 +0000, said:
>
>> I notice that he did not jettison his canopy, just opened it.
>> In the first frame you can see it still attached.
>>
>> Still worked out ok.
>
> You seem to be able to see the canopy frame attached, but you can see
> the canopy itself up to the left of the tailplane.

Agreed. It looks to me as if the frame stayed attached to the fuselage
while the plastic blew out. The latter is quite hard to see and has at
most some paint round its edges.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 16:21 02 August 2014, Craig Funston wrote:

>I'm curious about your comment regarding changes in
recommended bailout
>pro=
>cedures for SH type sailplanes. I don't find any reference to
not
>jettison=
>ing the canopy on the SH website and there are no listed
changes to the
>Nim=
>bus 3 flight manual. The FM recommends first opening the left
side and
>then=
> raising the canopy and pulling the hinge pins. This is the
way I
>practice=
> it, however, honestly I've never been convinced the canopy
would really
>go=
> away. Front release and a Roeger hook has always seemed
like a better
>sol=
>ution.
>
>Glad to see that the UK pilot got away safely regardless of
how it was
>acco=
>mplished.
>
>Thanks,
>Craig 7Q

I can't speak for the Nimbus 3 but for more modern SH gliders
to jettison the canopy you open the canopy with the left side
handle as usual and the right side hinges and canopy position
cord are designed to tear away. The black right side canopy
removal knob is only for removal for maintenance etc (and for
confusing with the nearby fuel valve in turbos - especially when
the canopy is open on the ground).

I found that good ways to accidentally practice (almost)
jettisoning modern SH canopies are to catch the left side
opening handle in the cuff of a long sleeve shirt or in a glove.

John Galloway

[Dave Nadler]

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 12:21:21 PM UTC-4, Craig Funston wrote:
> I'm curious about your comment regarding changes in recommended bailout
> procedures for SH type sailplanes. I don't find any reference to not
> jettisoning the canopy on the SH website and there are no listed changes
> to the Nimbus 3 flight manual. The FM recommends first opening the left
> side and then raising the canopy and pulling the hinge pins. This is
> the way I practice it, however, honestly I've never been convinced
> the canopy would really go away. Front release and a Roeger hook
> has always seemed like a better solution.

Hi Craig - My original Ventus B manual had same recommendation a
your manual. IIRC the Duo manual has the newer procedure (but I
sold that glider a couple years ago - don't have a manual handy
to check). I really don't know about flight manual updates for
older SH gliders.
Best to contact your SH dealer!

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: You'll remember Roy had his jaw wired shut for a while until
the bones healed; we sent him a pizza ;-)

[waremark]

On Saturday, 2 August 2014 17:51:09 UTC+1, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Aug 2014 04:18:17 +1200, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 2014-08-02 14:21:11 +0000, said:
>
> >
>
> >> I notice that he did not jettison his canopy, just opened it.
>
> >> In the first frame you can see it still attached.
>
> >>
>
> >> Still worked out ok.
>
> >
>
> > You seem to be able to see the canopy frame attached, but you can see
>
> > the canopy itself up to the left of the tailplane.
>
>
>
> Agreed. It looks to me as if the frame stayed attached to the fuselage
>
> while the plastic blew out. The latter is quite hard to see and has at
>
> most some paint round its edges.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
>
> org |

When I had my midair the canopy broke away from the frame in the impact leaving the frame in place - and it was still in place later on in the wreckage. The pilot in the other glider, an ASW 27 which has a front hinged cockpit, used the normal canopy release, and had to squeeze himself out against wind pressure between the edge of the cockpit and the canopy. The whole canopy was still attached to the wreckage afterwards. He was surprised to discover this - he thought he had used the red emergency jettison levers, which are ahead of the white canopy release levers in Schleicher gliders. It must have been much more difficult for him to get out (but happily like me he was unhurt). There is a moral there - regularly practice your bail out routine.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 13:56:59 -0700, waremark wrote:

> When I had my midair the canopy broke away from the frame in the impact
> leaving the frame in place - and it was still in place later on in the
> wreckage. The pilot in the other glider, an ASW 27 which has a front
> hinged cockpit, used the normal canopy release, and had to squeeze
> himself out against wind pressure between the edge of the cockpit and
> the canopy. The whole canopy was still attached to the wreckage
> afterwards. He was surprised to discover this - he thought he had used
> the red emergency jettison levers, which are ahead of the white canopy
> release levers in Schleicher gliders. It must have been much more
> difficult for him to get out (but happily like me he was unhurt). There
> is a moral there - regularly practice your bail out routine.

Has anybody bailed out from a Libelle or knows anybody who has? I'm just
wondering if the two rear pins act as a pseudo Roeger Hook and/or if you
need to guard against the canopy clobbering your head as it departs


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Craig Funston]

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 10:51:49 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Saturday, August 2, 2014 12:21:21 PM UTC-4, Craig Funston wrote:
>
> > I'm curious about your comment regarding changes in recommended bailout
>
> > procedures for SH type sailplanes. I don't find any reference to not
>
> > jettisoning the canopy on the SH website and there are no listed changes
>
> > to the Nimbus 3 flight manual. The FM recommends first opening the left
>
> > side and then raising the canopy and pulling the hinge pins. This is
>
> > the way I practice it, however, honestly I've never been convinced
>
> > the canopy would really go away. Front release and a Roeger hook
>
> > has always seemed like a better solution.
>
>
>
> Hi Craig - My original Ventus B manual had same recommendation a
>
> your manual. IIRC the Duo manual has the newer procedure (but I
>
> sold that glider a couple years ago - don't have a manual handy
>
> to check). I really don't know about flight manual updates for
>
> older SH gliders.
>
> Best to contact your SH dealer!
>
>
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Best Regards, Dave
>
>
>
> PS: You'll remember Roy had his jaw wired shut for a while until
>
> the bones healed; we sent him a pizza ;-)

Thanks Dave,

The Duo and Arcus have massive expanses of plexi and trying to jettison them definitely seems problematic. I'll dig into it a bit further for the Nimbus.

Best regards,
Craig

[Dave Nadler]

On Sunday, August 3, 2014 3:49:20 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> Has anybody bailed out from a Libelle or knows anybody who has?

IIRC Steve Dedman bailed out of a Libelle circa 1992.
I've lost touch with him; JS - do you know if he's
still in Camden (Oz)?

I'm sure a few others must have bailed out of Libelles.

> I'm just wondering if the two rear pins act as a
> pseudo Roeger Hook and/or if you need to guard against
> the canopy clobbering your head as it departs

Sorry, don't know...
Be careful out there (and for heaven's sake use FLARM),
Best Regards, Dave

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Tue, 05 Aug 2014 03:58:02 -0700, Dave Nadler wrote:

> On Sunday, August 3, 2014 3:49:20 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>> Has anybody bailed out from a Libelle or knows anybody who has?
>
> IIRC Steve Dedman bailed out of a Libelle circa 1992.
> I've lost touch with him; JS - do you know if he's still in Camden (Oz)?
>
> I'm sure a few others must have bailed out of Libelles.
>
>> I'm just wondering if the two rear pins act as a pseudo Roeger Hook
>> and/or if you need to guard against the canopy clobbering your head as
>> it departs
>
> Sorry, don't know...
> Be careful out there (and for heaven's sake use FLARM),
>
Of course, though its only an LX RedBox with the default display, which
is all I have panel space for. I've taken care to use the range analysis
tool on the FLARM website to fine-tune my antenna installation. I
regularly use it to check that coverage is adequate.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

My guess, tail section not working, maybe broken fuselage, but ailerons still working. If elevator is stuck, and you are ready to bail, why NOT roll the ship to make it easier to get out?

Us fat guys joke about this all the time (having to get inverted to pry ourselves out)

[Bruce Hoult[_2_]]

On 2014-08-25 17:11:14 +0000, flgliderpilot said:

> My guess, tail section not working, maybe broken fuselage, but ailerons
> still working. If elevator is stuck, and you are ready to bail, why NOT
> roll the ship to make it easier to get out?
>
> Us fat guys joke about this all the time (having to get inverted to pry
> ourselves out)

If the elevator is stuck then which way up you are is not going to make
any difference to the force keeping you in the cockpit -- only speed is.

Rolling inverted is going to put you into a half loop, with the initial
G force the same as it was the right way up, and then buiding.

If you don't have control of the elevator then you may well overspeed.
Or pull too many Gs. Or both.

It'll be easier to get out of the cockpit once the wings are gone.

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

> If the elevator is stuck then which way up you are is not going to make
>
> any difference to the force keeping you in the cockpit -- only speed is.
>
>
>
> Rolling inverted is going to put you into a half loop, with the initial
>
> G force the same as it was the right way up, and then buiding.

Not entirely true, he may have had a little elevator, or some elevator with very heavy control resistance, and took planned departure at minimum bailout altitude rather than chance landing and losing elevator entirely below 1000'.

I agree though that damage may have contributed to the roll and that it may not have been not 100% intentional!

[ND]

On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 12:11:28 AM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
> On Monday, July 28, 2014 8:55:12 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
>
> > Pushing the stick hard forward (assuming you still have some control) is one of the best advice I heard for exiting the cockpit. Probably something to add to mental bailout practices, as it may not be intuitive during bail out. Thanks Kirk for that advice.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Ramy
>
>
>
> I agree. I've never heard that advise before and it makes darn good sense. I've been doing 40 dips, 3 times a week to make sure that I have a fighting chance to get out of the cockpit. Pushing the stick forward sounds a heck of a lot easier than all those damn dips that I do.

what about the potential to injured your legs under the panel, or bang your head on the fuselage on the way out? no, i say climbing out is still probably the best way.

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 8/29/2014 1:45 PM, ND wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 12:11:28 AM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
>> On Monday, July 28, 2014 8:55:12 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
>>
>>> Pushing the stick hard forward (assuming you still have some control)
>>> is one of the best advice I heard for exiting the cockpit. Probably
>>> something to add to mental bailout practices, as it may not be
>>> intuitive during bail out. Thanks Kirk for that advice.
>>>
>>> Ramy
>>
>>
>> I agree. I've never heard that advise before and it makes darn good
>> sense. I've been doing 40 dips, 3 times a week to make sure that I have
>> a fighting chance to get out of the cockpit. Pushing the stick forward
>> sounds a heck of a lot easier than all those damn dips that I do.
>
> what about the potential to injured your legs under the panel, or bang your
> head on the fuselage on the way out? no, i say climbing out is still
> probably the best way.
>

Priorities matter in a time-sensitive emergency. I know three people who've
made emergency, personal-'chute-aided bailouts, one from a glider, two from
high-wing power planes.

All recommend unbuckling your seat belt (NOT your 'chute harness [duh!]), then
doing whatever it takes to get the heck out of the plane ASAP. One still has
shin lumps from scraping 'em on the leg hole cutouts of a metal panel 39 years
ago...never a big deal to him, physically or philosophically.

Develop an exit sequence/plan. Should it be necessary, don't hesitate to
attempt to implement it. Be prepared to ad-lib on your plan if necessary, but
the first priority should be to get the heck out of the aircraft, in a
physical condition capable of pulling the D-ring. Potential
non-life-threatening secondary injuries traded against a longer exit time? Not
so wise, but in your emergency, YOU'RE the judge. Mother Earth is the jury, and...

Bob W.

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, August 29, 2014 2:45:24 PM UTC-5, ND wrote:

> what about the potential to injured your legs under the panel, or bang your head on the fuselage on the way out? no, i say climbing out is still probably the best way.

The point is that under G, YOU CAN'T CLIMB OUT! Sure, you might get hurt. The option is getting dead, which (last time I checked) doesn't heal very good.

If you can casually climb out of the cockpit, sure, go ahead and enjoy the experience.

Kirk