Rec License Requirement Question

[[email protected]]

Below is a quote from the FAR AIM Section 61.99 which lists the
minimum "Aeronautical" experience required to get a REC Helicopter
license.

Notice that it never really says anything about helicopters.
Paragraph (a)(2) and (b) are the only two that specifically say "in
the aircraft for the rating sought".

It would seem that in order to get a REC helicopter license, you only
need 6 hours in an actual helicopter. The rest can be in a much
cheaper fixed wing. Is this an accurate statement?

Dennis.


--------------------------
Section 61.99: Aeronautical experience.

A person who applies for a recreational pilot certificate must receive
and log at least 30 hours of flight training time that includes at
least:

(a) 15 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor on the
areas of operation listed in §61.98 of this part that consists of at
least:

(1) Except as provided in §61.100 of this part, 2 hours of flight
training en route to an airport that is located more than 25 nautical
miles from the airport where the applicant normally trains, which
includes at least three takeoffs and three landings at the airport
located more than 25 nautical miles from the airport where the
applicant normally trains; and

(2) 3 hours of flight training in the aircraft for the rating sought
in preparation for the practical test within the 60 days preceding the
date of the practical test.

(b) 3 hours of solo flying in the aircraft for the rating sought, on
the areas of operation listed in §61.98 of this part that apply to the
aircraft category and class rating sought.


Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Bob]

If you think you're going to learn how to fly a helicopter in 6
hours...that's ONE issue. If you think ANY number of hours in a fixed wing
will substitute for helicopter experience that's another issue. What are you
trying to achieve? Whatever it is, make it worth strapping your ass to a
helicopter.

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-12-06 06:53:00 -0800, said:

> Notice that it never really says anything about helicopters.

61.98(b)(2) does say something about helicopters, though. That's what the
15 hours from 61.99(a) are referring to. The rest - three hours here, three
hours there - are only a part of the 15 hours of required training. This may
mean that you could add a helicopter rating in as little as 15 hours. The
likelihood of that happening, though, seems vanishingly small.

--
Larry Fransson
Seattle, WA

[[email protected]]

For reference, I've copied the relavent portion of 61.98 below.

The interesting thing is that items 61.98(b)(2)(i) and (ii) are
listed, but are not generally considered flight time. They are ground
school.

My point to all of this is that there seems to be some commanality
with fixed wings that can be taken advantage of. Things like radio
communication, navigation, traffic patterns, etc. I have been told
that in straght and level flight, a helicopter is not all that
different in operation from a fixed wing (from the pilots point of
view). Is this correct?

Also, I think that helicopter time in an ultralight counts towards
ones experience even though the FAA doesn't allow it to count toward
the license. This is why I believe that one can get a solo REC
license in 15 hours - by getting as much as possible common training
in a fixed wing and ultralight helicopter. That way, the real
helicopter instructor doesn't have to keep going over the same thing
over and over until you master it.

Nevertheless, harder than learning to fly the helicopter will be
finding an instructor that will sign off on a REC license. None of
the ones around here will do it regardless of the number of hours that
you have.

Dennis.

PS- The part about not allowing Ultralight Helis to count toward the
license is a bone of contention with me. They DO allow time in a
simulator to count. They should also allow UL time to count as well.


===========================================
Section 61.98: Flight proficiency.
(a) General. A person who applies for a recreational pilot certificate
must receive and log ground and flight training from an authorized
instructor on the areas of operation of this section that apply to the
aircraft category and class rating sought.
(b) Areas of operation.
-----
(2) For a helicopter rating:
(i) Preflight preparation;
(ii) Preflight procedures;
(iii) Airport and heliport operations;
(iv) Hovering maneuvers;
(v) Takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds;
(vi) Performance maneuvers;
(vii) Ground reference maneuvers;
(viii) Navigation;
(ix) Emergency operations; and
(x) Postflight procedures.


Larry Fransson > wrote:

> On 2003-12-06 06:53:00 -0800, said:
>
> > Notice that it never really says anything about helicopters.
>
> 61.98(b)(2) does say something about helicopters, though. That's what the
> 15 hours from 61.99(a) are referring to. The rest - three hours here, three
> hours there - are only a part of the 15 hours of required training. This may
> mean that you could add a helicopter rating in as little as 15 hours. The
> likelihood of that happening, though, seems vanishingly small.
>
> --
> Larry Fransson
> Seattle, WA

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Stu Fields]

I definitely think that the focus needs to be on acquiring the necesary
skills no matter what or where the hours are obtained. Trying to get by with
the minimum of training can be fatal. The helicopter is much more demanding
than a fixed wing. There are several fixed wing responses that need to be
changed in a helicopter. Yes in forward flight, they fly like a sloppy
fixed wing. However, the hover and yes the approaches take a bunch more
time to learn than the fixed wing. In fact more than one instructor has
told me that the hardest thing to learn is not the hover but a Normal
approach. My experience agrees with this. A good Normal approach is like
an Outstanding spot landing in a fixed wing. My helipad is 40'x40' and the
target is the center 5'x5' to avoid kicking up too much dirt from outside
the 40x40. Also I don't have much overshoot room.
Stu Fields Safari pilot
> wrote in message
...
>
>
> For reference, I've copied the relavent portion of 61.98 below.
>
> The interesting thing is that items 61.98(b)(2)(i) and (ii) are
> listed, but are not generally considered flight time. They are ground
> school.
>
> My point to all of this is that there seems to be some commanality
> with fixed wings that can be taken advantage of. Things like radio
> communication, navigation, traffic patterns, etc. I have been told
> that in straght and level flight, a helicopter is not all that
> different in operation from a fixed wing (from the pilots point of
> view). Is this correct?
>
> Also, I think that helicopter time in an ultralight counts towards
> ones experience even though the FAA doesn't allow it to count toward
> the license. This is why I believe that one can get a solo REC
> license in 15 hours - by getting as much as possible common training
> in a fixed wing and ultralight helicopter. That way, the real
> helicopter instructor doesn't have to keep going over the same thing
> over and over until you master it.
>
> Nevertheless, harder than learning to fly the helicopter will be
> finding an instructor that will sign off on a REC license. None of
> the ones around here will do it regardless of the number of hours that
> you have.
>
> Dennis.
>
> PS- The part about not allowing Ultralight Helis to count toward the
> license is a bone of contention with me. They DO allow time in a
> simulator to count. They should also allow UL time to count as well.
>
>
> ===========================================
> Section 61.98: Flight proficiency.
> (a) General. A person who applies for a recreational pilot certificate
> must receive and log ground and flight training from an authorized
> instructor on the areas of operation of this section that apply to the
> aircraft category and class rating sought.
> (b) Areas of operation.
> -----
> (2) For a helicopter rating:
> (i) Preflight preparation;
> (ii) Preflight procedures;
> (iii) Airport and heliport operations;
> (iv) Hovering maneuvers;
> (v) Takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds;
> (vi) Performance maneuvers;
> (vii) Ground reference maneuvers;
> (viii) Navigation;
> (ix) Emergency operations; and
> (x) Postflight procedures.
>
>
> Larry Fransson > wrote:
>
> > On 2003-12-06 06:53:00 -0800, said:
> >
> > > Notice that it never really says anything about helicopters.
> >
> > 61.98(b)(2) does say something about helicopters, though. That's what
the
> > 15 hours from 61.99(a) are referring to. The rest - three hours here,
three
> > hours there - are only a part of the 15 hours of required training.
This may
> > mean that you could add a helicopter rating in as little as 15 hours.
The
> > likelihood of that happening, though, seems vanishingly small.
> >
> > --
> > Larry Fransson
> > Seattle, WA
>
> Dennis Hawkins
> n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
>
> "A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
> A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
> A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
>
> To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
> them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
> web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
> video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm
>

[[email protected]]

I had more trouble with the hover taxi than the hover itself. Weird,
but thats the way it was for me. I still don't have my license yet.
My goal is to shave the cost, not so much the hours. Its just that
you can get a small fixed wing and train partly in that for $25/hour
dual. If those cheap fixed wing hours can be utilized, then I'm all
for them.

Dennis.


"Stu Fields" > wrote:

> I definitely think that the focus needs to be on acquiring the necesary
> skills no matter what or where the hours are obtained. Trying to get by with
> the minimum of training can be fatal. The helicopter is much more demanding
> than a fixed wing. There are several fixed wing responses that need to be
> changed in a helicopter. Yes in forward flight, they fly like a sloppy
> fixed wing. However, the hover and yes the approaches take a bunch more
> time to learn than the fixed wing. In fact more than one instructor has
> told me that the hardest thing to learn is not the hover but a Normal
> approach. My experience agrees with this. A good Normal approach is like
> an Outstanding spot landing in a fixed wing. My helipad is 40'x40' and the
> target is the center 5'x5' to avoid kicking up too much dirt from outside
> the 40x40. Also I don't have much overshoot room.
> Stu Fields Safari pilot

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[Stu]

One of the best ways to keep the costs down is to commit to a heavy schedule
such as 2hrs/day 7days a week until its done. You don't lose as much
learning that way.

Stu Fields Safari Pilot
> wrote in message
...
>
> I had more trouble with the hover taxi than the hover itself. Weird,
> but thats the way it was for me. I still don't have my license yet.
> My goal is to shave the cost, not so much the hours. Its just that
> you can get a small fixed wing and train partly in that for $25/hour
> dual. If those cheap fixed wing hours can be utilized, then I'm all
> for them.
>
> Dennis.
>
>
> "Stu Fields" > wrote:
>
> > I definitely think that the focus needs to be on acquiring the necesary
> > skills no matter what or where the hours are obtained. Trying to get by
with
> > the minimum of training can be fatal. The helicopter is much more
demanding
> > than a fixed wing. There are several fixed wing responses that need to
be
> > changed in a helicopter. Yes in forward flight, they fly like a sloppy
> > fixed wing. However, the hover and yes the approaches take a bunch more
> > time to learn than the fixed wing. In fact more than one instructor has
> > told me that the hardest thing to learn is not the hover but a Normal
> > approach. My experience agrees with this. A good Normal approach is
like
> > an Outstanding spot landing in a fixed wing. My helipad is 40'x40' and
the
> > target is the center 5'x5' to avoid kicking up too much dirt from
outside
> > the 40x40. Also I don't have much overshoot room.
> > Stu Fields Safari pilot
>
> Dennis Hawkins
> n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)
>
> "A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
> A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
> A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."
>
> To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
> them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
> web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
> video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm
>

[John Roncallo]

wrote:

> I had more trouble with the hover taxi than the hover itself. Weird,
> but thats the way it was for me. I still don't have my license yet.
> My goal is to shave the cost, not so much the hours. Its just that
> you can get a small fixed wing and train partly in that for $25/hour
> dual. If those cheap fixed wing hours can be utilized, then I'm all
> for them.
>
> Dennis.
>

I think the fixed wing concept is valid. You will save on radio and
cross country training. This is especially true if you go for an
instrument rating. I think it would be cheaper to get an instrument
rating in a fixed wing first than get the helicopter add-on, than to
just go straight for the instrument in a helicopter providing you
already had the fixed wing private. However I believe getting a private
in a helicopter all by itself would definitely be creeper than getting a
private in both. If you do fixed wing right through instrument first and
then do helicopter right through instrument you might find the cost to
be only slightly higher than a doing the helicopter only but the added
benefit is that you will have both licenses for almost the cost of one.
Helicopters are allot more fun but the cost will prohibit me from flying
them any more so having the fixed wing is a big plus for me.

I dont have any idea where you can find fixed wing training for $25/hour
dual. Around here in CT that would be about $100 to $130/hour dual.
Rotor craft would be about $225/hour dual.

I also agree with another poster here. Find a place that will train you
2 times a day 7 days a week. It really works. I finished up my
Commercial Rotor craft that way. I recommend Ocean Helicopter in West
Palm Beach FL. They have dorms and will fit you in 2 times a day and get
it done.

John Roncallo

[[email protected]]

John Roncallo > wrote:

> I dont have any idea where you can find fixed wing training for $25/hour
> dual. Around here in CT that would be about $100 to $130/hour dual.
> Rotor craft would be about $225/hour dual.

I saw the $25 on a web page somewhere while surfing, but I'm getting
really bad about saving the addresses. It had a section called
"Lowest price instruction" or something like that. Unfortunately, it
was for fixed wing only - not unless Piper is making helicopters now.

> I also agree with another poster here. Find a place that will train you
> 2 times a day 7 days a week. It really works. I finished up my
> Commercial Rotor craft that way. I recommend Ocean Helicopter in West
> Palm Beach FL. They have dorms and will fit you in 2 times a day and get
> it done.

I live about 5 miles from Ocean Helicopters. There is actually
another ocean helicopters in Virginia that is slightly cheaper. The
Ocean here was $205 the last time I was in there. The best instructor
they have is Eva, but apparently she is not the best pilot in the
world because she had a mid air at 100 feet during an autorotation.
Apparently, she gave a broadcast call stating she was doing an auto,
but failed to get confirmation from a glider tow pilot on the same
runway that he had heard her. I really like Eva a lot, but this is
the way I see it. She could see the tow pilot sitting on the runway
from 1000 feet, be he couldn't see her so the responsibility of
getting radio confirmation would be hers.

Still, you have to respect the R22 a little more because the two
people in the R22 walked away with a few bruises and the tow pilot is
still in a wheelchair. The 14 year old kid in the glider is the only
one that didn't wreck his aircraft.

BTW, where do they keep the dorms? They must be off airport
somewhere. I never knew they had them.

Dennis.



Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm

[John Roncallo]

wrote:

>
> I live about 5 miles from Ocean Helicopters. There is actually
> another ocean helicopters in Virginia that is slightly cheaper. The
> Ocean here was $205 the last time I was in there. The best instructor
> they have is Eva, but apparently she is not the best pilot in the
> world because she had a mid air at 100 feet during an autorotation.
> Apparently, she gave a broadcast call stating she was doing an auto,
> but failed to get confirmation from a glider tow pilot on the same
> runway that he had heard her. I really like Eva a lot, but this is
> the way I see it. She could see the tow pilot sitting on the runway
> from 1000 feet, be he couldn't see her so the responsibility of
> getting radio confirmation would be hers.
>

I got my commercial about 1 week before Eva had here accident. She was
not my instructor. I flew with Jon, and I was perfectly happy with him.

I don't believe the gliders have radios. If they did, they certainly
dident use them much. Because I had the same problem not hearing a word
from the glider pilots. I'm sure I will get flamed here but this is an
example of why I think all aircraft flying out of public airports should
use a radio.

> Still, you have to respect the R22 a little more because the two
> people in the R22 walked away with a few bruises and the tow pilot is
> still in a wheelchair. The 14 year old kid in the glider is the only
> one that didn't wreck his aircraft.
>
> BTW, where do they keep the dorms? They must be off airport
> somewhere. I never knew they had them.

I don't know the area but I did fly over them when I was there. They are
about 5 miles away.

John Roncallo

[Bob]

Seems to me that you "pick your spot"? to autorotate to. Especially when
its not ...like...a mandatory autorotation where pickins' can be a bit
thinner. Eva ASSumed that she was heard, huh?

Bob

[[email protected]]

Eva is a very popular instructor, however, for an instructor, she is
relatively low hours. I have to say that I really like her like a
sister, but she sometimes does do some dumb things. I just found out
that the FAA got called after a near collison with her. Aparently,
she sat down in the middle of the runway after a glider had already
descended on its final approach using the same runway. Gliders aren't
required to have radios, but many, including that one, carry
handhelds. He called that he was coming in, however, the radio in the
R22 had its volume turned way down. Fortunately, he still had enough
forward momentum to lift up over and clear her by a few feet. I'm
guessing, but I'll bet she had the collective down or the glider would
have been sucked into the blades. In any event, the glider pilot was
really ticked and called the FAA.

The FAR AIM's are pretty clear about who has the right of way. An
unpowered aircraft such as a glider always has priority over pretty
much anything with a motor.

Dennis.


"Bob" > wrote:

> Seems to me that you "pick your spot"? to autorotate to. Especially when
> its not ...like...a mandatory autorotation where pickins' can be a bit
> thinner. Eva ASSumed that she was heard, huh?
>
> Bob
>
>

Dennis Hawkins
n4mwd AT amsat DOT org (humans know what to do)

"A RECESSION is when you know somebody who is out of work.
A DEPRESSION is when YOU are out of work.
A RECOVERY is when all the H-1B's are out of work."

To find out what an H-1B is and how Congress is using
them to put Americans out of work, visit the following
web site and click on the "Exporting America" CNN news
video: http://zazona.com/ShameH1B/MediaClips.htm