In Flight Malfunctions and Emergencies

[Rocky]

Seems this area hasn't been touched in awhile and the group is getting
stale. Well, let me stir the pot and see who is still aboard.
My very first feeling of emergency I think, occured when my instructor
said, "YOU HAVE IT", but he was also quick to relieve me of the
anxiety and settled the helicopter back into a rock steady hover (or
so it seemed to me).
Since then, in the late 60's, I've experienced engine failures, tail
rotor failures, engine basket failures, LTE, compensation weight
failures (Hiller), fuel system failures, wire strikes, spatial
disorientation, fuel exhaustion, and miscellaneous dumb ****.
I am putting myself out there as a target for the "pilots" who want to
take a shot at me and tell me how stupid I am or what they would have
done without ever being there to experience it. I am also posting for
pilots to admit their own errors so the rest of us can learn from it.
One of the things that still puzzles me is why I have been able to do
the things I have without being in more accidents or without injury
while others have wrecked numerous aircraft with or without death or
injury. There has to be a reason. Anyone have a clue?
Ol Shy & Bashful

[Bart]

Whats an "engine basket failure" ?

Bart

[LM Scott]

Thanks very much for a thread that I predict will be a real good one. Rocky
whenever I catch a ride in a Hiller UH12 the pilot always asks me my weight
and this is one of the few times my good sense overcomes my vanity and I
tell him the truth<G> Does this tie into your comment about the Hiller
compensation weight? He usually says I'm within range
and then puts me in the middle seat. Is this a lateral weight and balance
"problem" common to all older, wider helos or does this have more to do with
the Hiller rotor system? Thanks again! Larry

[Stan Gosnell]

(Rocky) wrote in
om:

> One of the things that still puzzles me is why I have been able to do
> the things I have without being in more accidents or without injury
> while others have wrecked numerous aircraft with or without death or
> injury. There has to be a reason. Anyone have a clue?
> Ol Shy & Bashful
>
Well, they say God takes care of children and fools. I've also been flying
since the 60's, and have never had a serious malfunction. Maybe he takes
better care of some of us than others. Other than that, I don't have a
clue.

--
Regards,

Stan

[Rocky]

"LM Scott" > wrote in message >...
> Thanks very much for a thread that I predict will be a real good one. Rocky
> whenever I catch a ride in a Hiller UH12 the pilot always asks me my weight
> and this is one of the few times my good sense overcomes my vanity and I
> tell him the truth<G> Does this tie into your comment about the Hiller
> compensation weight? He usually says I'm within range
> and then puts me in the middle seat. Is this a lateral weight and balance
> "problem" common to all older, wider helos or does this have more to do with
> the Hiller rotor system? Thanks again! Larry

Hi Larry
The compensating weights are sticking up on metal bands that are about
1" wide and have square weights on the end. They are located on the
forward upper right of the engine area and nearly directly above and
behind the right seat. They are for easing the weight necessary for
the collective/cyclic input. The thru bolts on them are hard to
inspect except when they are removed. One sheared off and threw the
weight against the bubble and bounced down into the cooling fan
causing one helluva racket and a big puff of white smoke. I was in the
middle of a spray turn-around over walnut trees when it happened and
my first thought was I had taken a rocket hit! I did an autorotation
into the walnut orchard not knowing what had happened. Fortunately I
landed in the only area in the entire orchard that allowed it. The
rest of the story is kind of ho-hum.
Lateral weight and balance is of course an issue with nearly any
helicopter and is not necessarily restricted to wider helos. In the
Hiller I think the middle seat is the best in the house! Probably have
in excess of 2000 hrs sitting in it!
Happy New Year
Rocky

[Rocky]

Stan Gosnell > wrote in message >...
> (Rocky) wrote in
> om:
>
> > One of the things that still puzzles me is why I have been able to do
> > the things I have without being in more accidents or without injury
> > while others have wrecked numerous aircraft with or without death or
> > injury. There has to be a reason. Anyone have a clue?
> > Ol Shy & Bashful
> >
> Well, they say God takes care of children and fools. I've also been flying
> since the 60's, and have never had a serious malfunction. Maybe he takes
> better care of some of us than others. Other than that, I don't have a
> clue.
Happy New Year Stan!
I recall Herb "Fish" Salmon at Lockheed? saying he had never
experienced an emergency in all his years of test flying and then,
while he was testing a new "gatling" gun type of weapon in some jet,
he ended up having to eject when the jet tucked under from the recoil.
I'm sure you have seen or know of many instances of pilots cutting off
the tail on a poorly executed auto to touchdown...or was it properly
executed and conditions simply didn't allow for a good landing? That
is what puzzles me. The ones I've had to do ended up with not much
more than paint scratches on the bottom of the skids and brown on the
seat cover. Don't misunderstand me, I don't claim to be ace of the
base by any means. And I know you have flown under some really crappy
conditions in the gulf and elsewhere. Surely in your aviation history
you have observed someone who did everything right and got it all
wrong? And, those who did everything wrong and got it right, or more
correctly, got away with it?
The intent of my post was to draw out pilots like you who can add the
the plethora of info that is out there.
Best Profesional Regards
Rocky

[LM Scott]

> Hi Larry
> The compensating weights are sticking up on metal bands that are about
> 1" wide and have square weights on the end. They are located on the
> forward upper right of the engine area and nearly directly above and
> behind the right seat. They are for easing the weight necessary for
> the collective/cyclic input. The thru bolts on them are hard to
> inspect except when they are removed. One sheared off and threw the
> weight against the bubble and bounced down into the cooling fan
> causing one helluva racket and a big puff of white smoke. I was in the
> middle of a spray turn-around over walnut trees when it happened and
> my first thought was I had taken a rocket hit! I did an autorotation
> into the walnut orchard not knowing what had happened. Fortunately I
> landed in the only area in the entire orchard that allowed it. The
> rest of the story is kind of ho-hum.
> Lateral weight and balance is of course an issue with nearly any
> helicopter and is not necessarily restricted to wider helos. In the
> Hiller I think the middle seat is the best in the house! Probably have
> in excess of 2000 hrs sitting in it!
> Happy New Year
> Rocky

Rocky, thanks for giving me something else that will be very interesting
to look for the next time our local helo guy has his bird out for us to
admire. I try to look at all the details on these great old aircraft but I
don't always know what I'm looking at<G> Some homebuilts like the Rotorway
Exec require the pilot to move a weight depending on whether the aircraft is
being flown solo or with a passenger. I know much of your work was with very
heavily loaded helos under
extreme density altitude conditions. Did you ever have problems with tanks
not feeding properly that would throw the aircraft dangerously out of
balance? That was really exciting to read about your emergency and how well
you handled it.
Please keep up the interesting experiences if you have the time and thanks
again. Larry

[Stan Gosnell]

(Rocky) wrote in
om:

> Surely in your aviation history
> you have observed someone who did everything right and got it all
> wrong? And, those who did everything wrong and got it right, or more
> correctly, got away with it?

I recall a pilot who didn't get away with it. He was going to do a
maintenance flight, with a mechanic in the left seat. The mechanic was
very heavy, almost 300 lb, but the pilot was maybe 130. The wind was
blowing about 30 knots directly from his rear. He cranked up the 206B, and
started to pick it up to a hover, when the wind got underneath the
horizontal stabilizer and suddenly the ship was on its nose. He was
heading across the ramp, full aft cyclic, but that wasn't enough. He was
doing ok until the pitot tube, which was scraping the concrete, hit a 3/4"
water pipe laid across the concrete, whereupon pieces of the rotor system
went all over hell and half of Texas. One went completely through an FAA
van in the parking lot, and another went almost half a mile across the
airport in the other direction, but no injuries resulted to anyone. He was
fired, and the mechanic quit riding on helicopters. The marks where the
pitot tube scraped across the ramp were visible for years. How the rotors
kept from hitting the ground all that way is a total mystery to me.

--
Regards,

Stan

[Bob]

Seems like a bit of collective might have helped too.
Bob

[Rocky]

"Bob" > wrote in message >...
> Seems like a bit of collective might have helped too.
> Bob

Bob
No question they were pulling collective but how much and when? I
think if a pilot is only flying one type of machine and does a few
practice autos it should be a no brainer. But, if a pilot is flying
several different types or models, they can get into trouble real
easy. For example, I was doing a lot of work in a Hiller 12E, and then
jumped into a UH1. Tremendous difference in auto characteristics
especially at the bottom and flare attitude. At the time I was flying
the Hiller, a Bell 47 variant called a Tomcat MK6, a 206B, and the
UH1.
It was hard enough keeping the starting procedures straight let alone
the emergency ones! These were all in spraying operations at the time.
Add to that the mix of flying both an Ag Cat and a Cessna AgHusky and
it really can get confusing. I nearly wiped myself out trying to do a
helicopter spray turn in an Ag Cat when I had to jump from one into
the other. Yahoooo......!!
Rocky

[Bob]

Rocky,
I was referring to the person with "full aft cyclic" and still dragging the
pitot tube (on the nose of the aircraft) on the ground.

Bob

[Stan Gosnell]

"Bob" > wrote in
:

> Rocky,
> I was referring to the person with "full aft cyclic" and still
> dragging the pitot tube (on the nose of the aircraft) on the ground.

Lots of collective is the only thing that kept him moving. He was getting
into dynamic rollover, and bottoming the collective might have helped, but
I don't think more collective was going to do anything good here.
Fortunately I wasn't in the cockpit, so I can't say for sure how much he
pulled, or whether more or less would have helped.

--
Regards,

Stan

[steve]

> Hi Larry:
> The compensating weights are sticking up on metal bands that are about
> 1" wide and have square weights on the end. They are located on the
> forward upper right of the engine area and nearly directly above and
> behind the right seat. They are for easing the weight necessary for
> the collective/cyclic input. The thru bolts on them are hard to
> inspect except when they are removed.

Not to throw a monkey wrench into the works but those weights you are
describing are not used for collective/cyclic input. According to the
Hiller manual they are for vibration dampening of the cyclic controls.
"Vibration in the cyclic control system is dampened by two damper
assemblies, ine installed on each upper firewall bellcrank. Weights on
the damper assemblies are preadjusted to give the damper a natural
frequency of 690 cpm +/- 10 cpm. Both rectangular and cylindrical
weights are used.

I believe the weights you are describing that pertain to the
collective is the ballast assembly. This is located on top of the
rotor head and has two curved arms that come down on opposite sides of
the rotorhead. In the ends of these tubes weights can be inserted to
provide the appropriate amount of 'pull' when actuating the collective
and to adjust for collective stick 'creep'.

[SelwayKid]

(steve) wrote in message >...
> > Hi Larry:
> > The compensating weights are sticking up on metal bands that are about
> > 1" wide and have square weights on the end. They are located on the
> > forward upper right of the engine area and nearly directly above and
> > behind the right seat. They are for easing the weight necessary for
> > the collective/cyclic input. The thru bolts on them are hard to
> > inspect except when they are removed.
>
> Not to throw a monkey wrench into the works but those weights you are
> describing are not used for collective/cyclic input. According to the
> Hiller manual they are for vibration dampening of the cyclic controls.
> "Vibration in the cyclic control system is dampened by two damper
> assemblies, ine installed on each upper firewall bellcrank. Weights on
> the damper assemblies are preadjusted to give the damper a natural
> frequency of 690 cpm +/- 10 cpm. Both rectangular and cylindrical
> weights are used.
>
> I believe the weights you are describing that pertain to the
> collective is the ballast assembly. This is located on top of the
> rotor head and has two curved arms that come down on opposite sides of
> the rotorhead. In the ends of these tubes weights can be inserted to
> provide the appropriate amount of 'pull' when actuating the collective
> and to adjust for collective stick 'creep'.


Steve
You are right! Now you see why I was never certified as an A&P! To
further illuminate their location, they always reminded me of the
"rabbit ear" antennas on televisions. That entire rotorhead assembly
was different from the Bell and was a big difference when going from
one to the other in flight control characteristics.
Thanks for the clarification and correction.
Rocky

[SelwayKid]

Stan Gosnell > wrote in message >...
> "Bob" > wrote in
> :
>
> > Rocky,
> > I was referring to the person with "full aft cyclic" and still
> > dragging the pitot tube (on the nose of the aircraft) on the ground.
>
> Lots of collective is the only thing that kept him moving. He was getting
> into dynamic rollover, and bottoming the collective might have helped, but
> I don't think more collective was going to do anything good here.
> Fortunately I wasn't in the cockpit, so I can't say for sure how much he
> pulled, or whether more or less would have helped.

Stan and Bob
One time I had to take a farmer up in the Hiller to ID a field to
spray. He was a really big guy - 6'6" and about 240#. We lifted off,
went to the field and returned, no problem. There was another
helicopter (Bell 47) working from a truck ahead of mine and he was
sitting there taking on a load of chemical as we approached my spot.
Well, as I began to flare to slow down, it didn't slow down and not
much flare! I kept pulling aft cyclic and it was at the stops (I
thought) when my pax said "Go around if you can..." and I pulled pitch
and began a turn and climb to avoid the 47 sitting ahead of me. I
glanced over at my pax and he was pushing himself up and back in the
seat to give the cyclic more aft movement. Seems I had pulled the
cyclic into his crotch during the flare and THAT is what limited the
aft movement! We both got a chuckle out of that afterwards and I
learned he was also a race pilot at the Nationals......
He was smart enough not to use the pedals to push himself back in the
seat or we might have been on the NEWS AT 5.
Rocky

[Rocky]

Stan Gosnell > wrote in message >...
> "Bob" > wrote in
> :
>
> > Rocky,
> > I was referring to the person with "full aft cyclic" and still
> > dragging the pitot tube (on the nose of the aircraft) on the ground.
>
> Lots of collective is the only thing that kept him moving. He was getting
> into dynamic rollover, and bottoming the collective might have helped, but
> I don't think more collective was going to do anything good here.
> Fortunately I wasn't in the cockpit, so I can't say for sure how much he
> pulled, or whether more or less would have helped.

Stan & Bob
It makes me think of a time when I had to take a farmer up in the
Hiller to check a field for positive ID. He was a big guy at 6'6" and
about 240#. We took off, checked the field, no problem. On return,
there was a Bell 47 working ahead of me with his nurse rig on the
ground, and as I began to flare, it wouldn't slow down. I pulled aft
cyclic to what I thought were the stops and it kept going. My pax
hollered "can you go around?" and I began doing so to avoid hitting
the 47 at the same time. I pulled pitch and turned with room to spare
and glanced over at my pax who was pushing himself farther back and up
in the seat. Turns out the cyclic was jammed back into his crotch
while I was trying to flare it out! We made a good landing the 2nd
time around. Then I learned the guy was also a race pilot at the
Nationals and had sense enough to keep his feet off the pedals while
he pushed himself back in the seat. We got a chuckle out of that after
the fact. It also taught me to not put any pax in the left seat when
the duals were installed!
Best Regards
Rocky

[El Gran Cantinflas]

Stan Gosnell wrote:

>"Bob" > wrote in
:
>
>
>
>>Rocky,
>>I was referring to the person with "full aft cyclic" and still
>>dragging the pitot tube (on the nose of the aircraft) on the ground.
>>
>>
>
>Lots of collective is the only thing that kept him moving. He was getting
>into dynamic rollover, and bottoming the collective might have helped, but
>I don't think more collective was going to do anything good here.
>Fortunately I wasn't in the cockpit, so I can't say for sure how much he
>pulled, or whether more or less would have helped.
>

Stan & Bob
It makes me think of a time when I had to go up witha pilot in a
Hiller to check my field for positive ID. He was a little guy at 5'6" and
about 140#. We took off, checked the field, no problem. On return,
there was a Bell 47 working ahead of us with his chopper on the
ground, and as we began to approach, it wouldn't slow down. He pulled aft
cyclic to what he thought were the stops and it kept going. I
hollered "can you go around?" and he began doing so to avoid hitting
the 47 at the same time. He pulled pitch and turned with room to spare
and glanced over at me, while I was pushing myself farther back and up
in the seat. The cyclic was jammed back into my crotch
while he was trying to flare it out! We made a good landing the 2nd
time around. Then I told him I was also a race pilot at the
Nationals.At least I had sense enough to keep my feet off the pedals while
I pushed myself back in the seat. We got a chuckle out of that after
the fact. What a wild ride!!

seeya
ref

p.s. This post is just a joke, for those who just think it a great coincidence!



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[Bart]

After reading the Hiller & the big farmer story, I thought I'd
relate something funny that happened to me.

Last week I was doing a sightseeing tour over the reef. The pax
in the left seat was a tiny little gal who was maybe 100 lbs wet.
We'd been in the air for about 30 minutes and she seemed to be
enjoying herself a lot, taking pictures and commenting on all the
sea life. Well then it happened... we were about 100 ft off the
water over the reef when she announces that she's going to throw up.
I asked one of the pax in the back to hand a bag of some kind to her.
They handed her the small gym bag I carry spare life vests and
headsets in. I pulled her mic boom away from her face, and she
went for it.

On the first convulsion, she pushed the collective down. I'm
used to that by now, because no matter how many times I tell
people to stay away from it, they always seem to sit on it.
Then she did something no one's ever done. With each convulsion
forward she'd lean into the cyclic. She did it with such force
that it surprised the hell out of me. You would of thought I was
playing tug of war with a 220lb guy for how much force it took
to hold the stick steady. The convulsions were so loud that she
was breaking the squelch on MY mic. After about a minute of this
she announced that she felt much better, and we all had a pretty
good laugh.

This might not sound all that scary, but I was pretty nervous about
having an unpredictable spastic critter in the copilots seat
(no matter how pretty).

Bart

Rocky wrote:
> Seems this area hasn't been touched in awhile and the group is getting
> stale. Well, let me stir the pot and see who is still aboard.

[gnolan]

one of the friend of a friend kind of story, reality to truth ?? not too far
off

the pilot dropped two engineering summer students off near the top of a
mountain to examine a communications shell for the day.
after they departed and removed their equip, hunkered down behind a rock.
pilot lifted off and established a circuit over the pax to make sure all was
ok (no arms flailing to notify they left anything onboard - like all good
pilots do)
what he saw was the pax rolling around on the ground, obviously in some sort
of distress, landed back at the same spot to find out what was wrong.
what had happened was that these two bush greenhorns had thought that bear
spray (pepper spray/mace) was applied like mosquito repellant, and suffered
the consiquence !!

> Rocky wrote:
> > Seems this area hasn't been touched in awhile and the group is getting
> > stale. Well, let me stir the pot and see who is still aboard.
>

[Dr. J Dana Eckart]

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:46:19 -0500, Bart > wrote:
>
> On the first convulsion, she pushed the collective down. I'm
> used to that by now, because no matter how many times I tell
> people to stay away from it, they always seem to sit on it.
> Then she did something no one's ever done. With each convulsion
> forward she'd lean into the cyclic. She did it with such force
> that it surprised the hell out of me. You would of thought I was
> playing tug of war with a 220lb guy for how much force it took
> to hold the stick steady.

WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a non-pilot
passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was told
that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in that
seat is qualified to use them.

--
J Dana Eckart, PhD, PP-RH, KA4EVL | People who think that life couldn't be
Virginia Bioinformatics Institute | better lack vision, and those who think
| it couldn't be worse lack imagination.

[Rocky]

"Dr. J Dana Eckart" > wrote in message >...
> On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:46:19 -0500, Bart > wrote:
> >
> > On the first convulsion, she pushed the collective down. I'm
> > used to that by now, because no matter how many times I tell
> > people to stay away from it, they always seem to sit on it.
> > Then she did something no one's ever done. With each convulsion
> > forward she'd lean into the cyclic. She did it with such force
> > that it surprised the hell out of me. You would of thought I was
> > playing tug of war with a 220lb guy for how much force it took
> > to hold the stick steady.
>
> WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a non-pilot
> passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was told
> that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in that
> seat is qualified to use them.

Dr J.
In working machines we often didn't have time to remove the duals, or
it was just too much trouble to do so. I've always guarded the
controls carefully when I had ANYONE sitting where they could reach
the active controls. Yes it can get hairy at times but I've never had
one taken away from me nor ever lost control of one due to someone
else moving the controls accidently or on purpose. Got roughly 8000
hours working in rotorcraft spread out since 1967.
Flyinrock

[Bart]

>
> WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a non-pilot
> passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was told
> that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in that
> seat is qualified to use them.
>

Removing the co-pilot controls requires an A&P, and theres frequently
not one available when you need one to do it. Most airplanes don't
have the ability to remove them at all. A friend of mine ground looped
in his Waco because a pax jammed his foot on a pedal in an attempt to
brace themselves during a landing. I'm avery guarded when theres a
non-pilot in the left seat, and the briefing always contains a series
of "don't touch this or else" messages. Non-pilots tend to listen to
messages like this because they're generally a little afraid of the
cockpit. My larger concerns are making sure that they don't carry
anything into the cockpit that might wind up jamming the controls,
and ensuring that they're very aware that the little red inflation
balls on their life vest can snag on the harness causing inadvertent
inflation.

Just because someone's a pilot doesnt keep'em from doing stupid stuff.
On a 1100nm ferry flight a month ago I took a friend of mine who's a
737 captain for Continental. Standard warnings issued during briefing,
he still managed to sit on the collective four times during the trip.
Each time he was really embarrassed and and it became the subject of a
ribbing or two since then.

Bell made it very clear in their training class that installation and
removal of the secondary controls was not an authorized pilot activity.
They also said the same is true of for doors. I'm not sure I agree with
either of these, but in the case of control installation I understand
why they have the policy; There was an accident where the PIC was in
the left seat and I think there was a beginner in the right. The cyclic
came out in-flight as a result of mis-installation, the result was
not good.

Bart

[LM Scott]

"Bart" > wrote in message
...
>
> >
> > WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a
non-pilot
> > passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was
told
> > that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in
that
> > seat is qualified to use them.
> >
>
> Removing the co-pilot controls requires an A&P, and theres frequently
> not one available when you need one to do it. Most airplanes don't
> have the ability to remove them at all. A friend of mine ground looped
> in his Waco because a pax jammed his foot on a pedal in an attempt to
> brace themselves during a landing. I'm avery guarded when theres a
> non-pilot in the left seat, and the briefing always contains a series
> of "don't touch this or else" messages. Non-pilots tend to listen to
> messages like this because they're generally a little afraid of the
> cockpit. My larger concerns are making sure that they don't carry
> anything into the cockpit that might wind up jamming the controls,
> and ensuring that they're very aware that the little red inflation
> balls on their life vest can snag on the harness causing inadvertent
> inflation.
>
> Just because someone's a pilot doesnt keep'em from doing stupid stuff.
> On a 1100nm ferry flight a month ago I took a friend of mine who's a
> 737 captain for Continental. Standard warnings issued during briefing,
> he still managed to sit on the collective four times during the trip.
> Each time he was really embarrassed and and it became the subject of a
> ribbing or two since then.
>
> Bell made it very clear in their training class that installation and
> removal of the secondary controls was not an authorized pilot activity.
> They also said the same is true of for doors. I'm not sure I agree with
> either of these, but in the case of control installation I understand
> why they have the policy; There was an accident where the PIC was in
> the left seat and I think there was a beginner in the right. The cyclic
> came out in-flight as a result of mis-installation, the result was
> not good.
>
> Bart
>
I sure see your point Bart. Our local pilot/owner is an A&P which
probably explains his ability to fly a piston helo for fun since he can do
the maintenance himself. Whenever he flys a passenger for fun he still
leaves the controls in both middle and left seat since it's probably more
trouble to remove them and possibly more dangerous too. I was intently
watching the cyclic and pedal movement during my flight around the patch
which after the stories I''ve heard here probably worried the pilot to no
end. He asked me in a a deadly serious tone to not touch anything<G> Of
course all I wanted to do was get a visual clue of just how much or little
the controls were moved in flight and compare it to my limited time as a
fixed wing passenger. Thanks to all of you for telling about some
wonderful and scary flying experiences! Larry

[Dr. J Dana Eckart]

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:27:30 -0500, Bart > wrote:
>
>> WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a non-pilot
>> passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was told
>> that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in that
>> seat is qualified to use them.
>
> Removing the co-pilot controls requires an A&P, and theres frequently
> not one available when you need one to do it. Most airplanes don't
> have the ability to remove them at all.

Interesting. My helicopter time is all in R-22s and the controls are
relatively easy to remove and as far as I know, can be done by the PIC.
[I haven't flown in quite some time.]

How common is it for aircraft with removable controls to require an A&P
to do the removal/installation?

--
J Dana Eckart, PhD, PP-RH, KA4EVL | People who think that life couldn't be
Virginia Bioinformatics Institute | better lack vision, and those who think
| it couldn't be worse lack imagination.

[Bart]

My flight manual does not specifically state that removal is prohibited
or allowed. The FARS state which activities may be performed by a pilot,
and if I remember correctly they disallow alteration of a flight
control. I'm not 100% certain, but my interpretation would be that no
matter how easy it is to remove them or how common the practice of
it being done by a pilot, it legally requires an A&P.

Bart

Dr. J Dana Eckart wrote:
> Interesting. My helicopter time is all in R-22s and the controls are
> relatively easy to remove and as far as I know, can be done by the PIC.
> [I haven't flown in quite some time.]
>
> How common is it for aircraft with removable controls to require an A&P
> to do the removal/installation?
>

[Stan Gosnell]

"Dr. J Dana Eckart" > wrote in
u:

> Interesting. My helicopter time is all in R-22s and the controls are
> relatively easy to remove and as far as I know, can be done by the
> PIC. [I haven't flown in quite some time.]
>
> How common is it for aircraft with removable controls to require an
> A&P to do the removal/installation?
>
The general rule is, if it takes a tool to remove it, an A&P is required.
Especially for flight controls. Improper work on flight controls can kill
you in a heartbeat. Often less.

--
Regards,

Stan

[Bob]

If the procedure for removing dual controls is in the flight manual (which
it isn't) then it's in the maintenance manual which is intended for the
authorized maintenance "entity" be that a repair station or a mechanic with
at least an airframe rating. This goes for aircraft registered in the
"normal" category. "Experimentalists" as we know are in their own world.

[Dual Controls]

(Bob)
If the procedure for removing dual controls is in the flight manual
(which it isn't) then it's in the maintenance manual which is intended
for the authorized maintenance "entity" be that a repair station or a
mechanic with at least an airframe rating. This goes for aircraft
registered in the "normal" category.

Bob
Has been a few years but I believe if you check the flight
manuals Weight & Balance sheets, section C or ( form C ), you will see a
check off box that requires a check if the duals are installed or
removed. Should also have the date, initials of the person who performed
the task and a correction of the weight & balance.
Weight & Balance sheets, isn`t that one of the things inspectors like
to look at on ramp cks. :-)

[Bob]

Yes, definately, the weight & balance section is definately and area that an
inspector is subject to check. Whether he (or she) will check it or not is
a crapshoot. Further than that, as far as the "checkboxe"s are concerned I'm
not quite sure if you are asking me a question or what you are asking. Few
weight and balance sheets are exactly the same. I will ASSume that if the
check box next to dual controls is checked, that would mean that that
aircraft WAS WEIGHED with the duals installed. If subsequently removed,
then the weight, station, and moment of the duals would need to be known in
order to correctly re-calculate W & B. I would say that on most aircraft,
that change is negligible whether they're in or out. BUT it is a required
(and many more times than not, a neglected) calculation on installation and
removal after the "as weighed" CG has been determined. Pilots make weight
and balance recalculations all the time. My comments earlier in this thread
were regarding WHO is authorized to install and remove the duals. Anyone
performing the task must be following a PROCEDURE. Where is the procedure?
As I said, it's probably in the Maintenance Manual, making it a Maintenance
procedure. Mechanics are supposed to make flight manual entries for W & B
also. There would be a certificate number entry possibility. Hope this
helped!
Bob

[Dual Controls]

Bob wrote,
Yes, definitely, the weight & balance section is definitely and area
that an inspector is subject to check. Whether he (or she) will check it
or not is a crapshoot. Further than that, as far as the "checkboxe"s are
concerned I'm not quite sure if you are asking me a question or what you
are asking.

Hi Bob
Not asking any questions, just responding with what I
recalled on the operations of removing dual flight controls.

Few weight and balance sheets are exactly the same. I will ASSume that
if the check box next to dual controls is checked, that would mean that
that aircraft WAS WEIGHED with the duals installed. If subsequently
removed, then the weight, station, and moment of the duals would need to
be known in order to correctly re-calculate W & B. I would say that on
most aircraft, that change is negligible whether they're in or out. BUT
it is a required (and many more times than not, a neglected) calculation
on installation and removal after the "as weighed" CG has been
determined. Pilots make weight and balance recalculations all the time.
My comments earlier in this thread were regarding WHO is authorized to
install and remove the duals. Anyone performing the task must be
following a PROCEDURE. Where is the procedure? As I said, it's probably
in the Maintenance Manual, making it a Maintenance procedure. Mechanics
are supposed to make flight manual entries for W & B also. There would
be a certificate number entry possibility. Hope this helped!
Bob

Yes you are correct, it takes an a/p to sign off the installation.
The check boxs I was referring to was sep up in our flight manuals
either on the equipment list ( items a/c was weighed with ) or form C.
There was an IN and Out box with the weight and arm of the item listed.
Remove an item and you check the out box and recalculate the W & B ,
reverse for the installation.
You should be able to find the procedure under chapter 27 ( flight
controls ) in the maintenance manual.
As you say this procedure is usually neglected about as much as removing
the doors which also weigh little but to be legal should be figured into
the W & B.
Roy

[Micbloo]

>Removing the co-pilot controls requires an A&P, and theres frequently
>not one available when you need one to do it.

If Bob-Volpe is around who used to work for Island in NYC this brings up a
question.
As busy as Island was back in the 70s/80s
especially with sightseeing flights, did they have a mechanic ON DUTY at the
East 34st Heliport in case something happened or would they have to fly one in
from Garden City where their hangar was which I believe is about 15/20 flight
time.
Thanks.

[Bob]

Bob V. would have done fine. What kind of impression must I have made to
have my cover blown so precisely? :)

No. there was not a mechanic on duty at E.34th St. as you WELL know. I made
MANY chip light, FWU, etc. and a few engine change flights (Jake had the
replacement engine in the blue pickup). Now that my curiosity is so piqued
E-mail me personally, and I'll be very pleased to make your re-acquaintance.
Been many moons.