Enstrom F-28F

[Badwater Bill]

I got to talking with a buddy of mine today and he told me that the
turboed Enstrom F-28F was a great ship.

I want a personal helicopter for me mostly. My wife will go about 25%
opf the time.

I'd like to land it at 10,000 feet msl if it will do it, no big loads,
just some groceries.

How much do they cost and what is the TBO? What should I look for?

I'm serious. I was just about to buy a Robbie, but-damn, the envelope
is so tight on that ship. However, the thing I don't like about the
Enstrom is the way they buzz that engine, the probability of an engine
failure, etc. I like the idea of a turbo, but how does it cool?

Thank you for anything you can tell me or for directing me to some
people who know...or a site on the web that might shed some info on
the machine.

Bill Phillips

[Guy Alcala]

Badwater Bill wrote:

> I got to talking with a buddy of mine today and he told me that the
> turboed Enstrom F-28F was a great ship.
>
> I want a personal helicopter for me mostly. My wife will go about 25%
> opf the time.
>
> I'd like to land it at 10,000 feet msl if it will do it, no big loads,
> just some groceries.
>
> How much do they cost and what is the TBO? What should I look for?
>
> I'm serious. I was just about to buy a Robbie, but-damn, the envelope
> is so tight on that ship. However, the thing I don't like about the
> Enstrom is the way they buzz that engine, the probability of an engine
> failure, etc. I like the idea of a turbo, but how does it cool?
>
> Thank you for anything you can tell me or for directing me to some
> people who know...or a site on the web that might shed some info on
> the machine.
>
> Bill Phillips

Well, googling on "Enstrom F28F" will get you several sites, including the
obvious first one to look at:

http://www.enstromhelicopter.com/home.html

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FRF28F.htm

has some claimed cost data from 1998.

From reading this it appears the 280FX would be more what you're looking
for, as it's aimed at the personal market. Slightly faster, but same
performance otherwise.

Guy

[Skyking]

(Badwater Bill) wrote in message >...
> I got to talking with a buddy of mine today and he told me that the
> turboed Enstrom F-28F was a great ship.
>
> I want a personal helicopter for me mostly. My wife will go about 25%
> opf the time.
>
> I'd like to land it at 10,000 feet msl if it will do it, no big loads,
> just some groceries.
>
> How much do they cost and what is the TBO? What should I look for?
>
> I'm serious. I was just about to buy a Robbie, but-damn, the envelope
> is so tight on that ship. However, the thing I don't like about the
> Enstrom is the way they buzz that engine, the probability of an engine
> failure, etc. I like the idea of a turbo, but how does it cool?
>
> Thank you for anything you can tell me or for directing me to some
> people who know...or a site on the web that might shed some info on
> the machine.
>
> Bill Phillips


Enstrom's can be expensive to maintain, but maybe "O Ring" can help you.

Why not get a surplus OH-58 and operate Experimental?

Skyking

[Badwater Bill]

>
>
>Enstrom's can be expensive to maintain, but maybe "O Ring" can help you.
>
>Why not get a surplus OH-58 and operate Experimental?
>
>Skyking

I looked into that but you can't go anywhere without the FAA approval
for every flight. It's not like a homebuilt.

BWB

[JIM105]

>I want a personal helicopter for me mostly. My wife will go about 25%
>opf the time.
>
>I'd like to land it at 10,000 feet msl if it will do it, no big loads,
>just some groceries.
>
>How much do they cost and what is the TBO? What should I look for?
>
>I'm serious. I was just about to buy a Robbie, but-damn, the envelope
>is so tight on that ship. However, the thing I don't like about the
>Enstrom is the way they buzz that engine, the probability of an engine
>failure, etc. I like the idea of a turbo, but how does it cool?
>
>Thank you for anything you can tell me or for directing me to some
>people who know
>
>
You will never operate an Enstrom for the same price as a Robbi. On the other
hand, the Enstrom is much more versatile. the F28F can carry three in a pinch
(you will be good friends by the end of the flight though). The ride quality
is good and the autorotations are the best of any piston except the Bell 47.

I haven't flown one in probably 15 years, but as far as 10,000 feet, I'd look
hard at the performance numbers of any piston helicopter. The lamiflex
bearings were a hassle, although I think Enstrom has a new system these days.
Engine does tend to work hard and I don't remember seeing many go to TBO.

All in all I really enjoyed flying them. Of course the key to it is to find a
mechanic that knows Enstroms in your area. It can make or break your
experience.

Jim

[Badwater Bill]

On 27 Jan 2004 16:40:04 GMT, (JIM105) wrote:

>>I want a personal helicopter for me mostly. My wife will go about 25%
>>opf the time.
>>
>>I'd like to land it at 10,000 feet msl if it will do it, no big loads,
>>just some groceries.
>>
>>How much do they cost and what is the TBO? What should I look for?
>>
>>I'm serious. I was just about to buy a Robbie, but-damn, the envelope
>>is so tight on that ship. However, the thing I don't like about the
>>Enstrom is the way they buzz that engine, the probability of an engine
>>failure, etc. I like the idea of a turbo, but how does it cool?
>>
>>Thank you for anything you can tell me or for directing me to some
>>people who know
>>
>>
>You will never operate an Enstrom for the same price as a Robbi. On the other
>hand, the Enstrom is much more versatile. the F28F can carry three in a pinch
>(you will be good friends by the end of the flight though). The ride quality
>is good and the autorotations are the best of any piston except the Bell 47.
>
>I haven't flown one in probably 15 years, but as far as 10,000 feet, I'd look
>hard at the performance numbers of any piston helicopter. The lamiflex
>bearings were a hassle, although I think Enstrom has a new system these days.
>Engine does tend to work hard and I don't remember seeing many go to TBO.
>
>All in all I really enjoyed flying them. Of course the key to it is to find a
>mechanic that knows Enstroms in your area. It can make or break your
>experience.
>
>Jim

That's interesting Jim. Thanks for the input. I know they suck the
guts out of that piston engine, but I hear the flying characteristics
are superb. What I like about the R-22 is the lack of maintenace and
the engine is so derated it probably won't ever fail. But, if it
does, then you better be spring loaded to get that collective bottomed
in 1 second or you are toast. All of this is a toss up. In the
Enstrom buzzing that O-360 and demanding 220 hp out of an engine
designed for 160 hp worries me, especially in a helo.

What do you know about the turbine ship? The 480 is it? Anybody got
any experience with that baby?

BWB

[JIM105]

>What do you know about the turbine ship? The 480 is it?

Unfortunately have never flown it. It seems like it wouldn't be bad, but then
comes the question for the price of a 480 could you be able to find a used 206
or 500. Another question is the R44. Yet another machine I haven't flown.

IIRC you live in the Las Vegas area, you might want to take a day at Heli Expo.
It runs March 15,16, and 17 at the Las Vegas Convention Center.

Good Luck

Jim

[Skyking]

(Badwater Bill) wrote in message >...
> >
> >
> >Enstrom's can be expensive to maintain, but maybe "O Ring" can help you.
> >
> >Why not get a surplus OH-58 and operate Experimental?
> >
> >Skyking
>
> I looked into that but you can't go anywhere without the FAA approval
> for every flight. It's not like a homebuilt.
>
> BWB

I believe that in EXP-Exhibition you might be able to get a wide enough
operating area to fit your needs. Of course, paint it in Military Colors
and take it to an airshow or two.

Skyking

[Stevenatherton]

i have had a f28a,f28c,f28ofx and 2 480s one of them brand new

i thought they were all very good made helicopters fairly inexpensive to
maintain , lovly and safe to fly [there has never been a fatal accident in the
uk in a enstrom]only reason that i dont have one now was i wanted more speed
and payload now have a md600
steve atherton
as some one said go to hai at vegas ans see one , i will be there possibly
around the md stand look me up
please note i am a private/buisness user of helicopters not a dealer

[Badwater Bill]

On 28 Jan 2004 18:32:20 GMT, (Stevenatherton)
wrote:

>i have had a f28a,f28c,f28ofx and 2 480s one of them brand new
>
>i thought they were all very good made helicopters fairly inexpensive to
>maintain , lovly and safe to fly [there has never been a fatal accident in the
>uk in a enstrom]only reason that i dont have one now was i wanted more speed
>and payload now have a md600
>steve atherton
>as some one said go to hai at vegas ans see one , i will be there possibly
>around the md stand look me up
>please note i am a private/buisness user of helicopters not a dealer


When is HAI? I know it's in FEB sometime.

Bill

[Badwater Bill]

On 28 Jan 2004 18:32:20 GMT, (Stevenatherton)
wrote:

>i have had a f28a,f28c,f28ofx and 2 480s one of them brand new
>
>i thought they were all very good made helicopters fairly inexpensive to
>maintain , lovly and safe to fly [there has never been a fatal accident in the
>uk in a enstrom]only reason that i dont have one now was i wanted more speed
>and payload now have a md600
>steve atherton
>as some one said go to hai at vegas ans see one , i will be there possibly
>around the md stand look me up
>please note i am a private/buisness user of helicopters not a dealer


Me too. I am just a private guy who will never use it for commercial
use. I just want a toy helicopter to fly and have fun with. I have
always worried a bit about the Enstrom because of the way they suck
the guts out of that little engine. But, a guy can run it sanely and
conservatively, which I would do.

I'm going to HAI myself. See ya there. You said you'd be at the
Enstrom booth?

Bill

[me]

Hey Bill try this :)

http://www.heliexpo.com/2004registrations.htm


>
> When is HAI? I know it's in FEB sometime.
>
> Bill
>

[Stevenatherton]

yes i will be calling by steve

[Ga.Chopper]

(Badwater Bill) wrote in message >...
> On 27 Jan 2004 16:40:04 GMT, (JIM105) wrote:
>
> >>I want a personal helicopter for me mostly. My wife will go about 25%
> >>opf the time.
> >>
> >>I'd like to land it at 10,000 feet msl if it will do it, no big loads,
> >>just some groceries.
> >>
> >>How much do they cost and what is the TBO? What should I look for?
> >>
> >>I'm serious. I was just about to buy a Robbie, but-damn, the envelope
> >>is so tight on that ship. However, the thing I don't like about the
> >>Enstrom is the way they buzz that engine, the probability of an engine
> >>failure, etc. I like the idea of a turbo, but how does it cool?
> >>
> >>Thank you for anything you can tell me or for directing me to some
> >>people who know
> >>
> >>
> >You will never operate an Enstrom for the same price as a Robbi. On the other
> >hand, the Enstrom is much more versatile. the F28F can carry three in a pinch
> >(you will be good friends by the end of the flight though). The ride quality
> >is good and the autorotations are the best of any piston except the Bell 47.
> >
> >I haven't flown one in probably 15 years, but as far as 10,000 feet, I'd look
> >hard at the performance numbers of any piston helicopter. The lamiflex
> >bearings were a hassle, although I think Enstrom has a new system these days.
> >Engine does tend to work hard and I don't remember seeing many go to TBO.
> >
> >All in all I really enjoyed flying them. Of course the key to it is to find a
> >mechanic that knows Enstroms in your area. It can make or break your
> >experience.
> >
> >Jim
>
> That's interesting Jim. Thanks for the input. I know they suck the
> guts out of that piston engine, but I hear the flying characteristics
> are superb. What I like about the R-22 is the lack of maintenace and
> the engine is so derated it probably won't ever fail. But, if it
> does, then you better be spring loaded to get that collective bottomed
> in 1 second or you are toast. All of this is a toss up. In the
> Enstrom buzzing that O-360 and demanding 220 hp out of an engine
> designed for 160 hp worries me, especially in a helo.
>
> What do you know about the turbine ship? The 480 is it? Anybody got
> any experience with that baby?
>
> BWB

I have an Enstrom F-28"C-2", same cabin as the "F" model but has the
205 HP versus the 225 HP. I am a private owner/operator and do all my
own maintenance as as A&P mechanic and have been to the factory
maintainence course. There are a couple of myths about Enstrom piston
models I would like to address.

The HIO-360 series engines used in the Enstroms obviously are not
derated like the Robbies, but they also do not have the "guts sucked
out" of them. You actually have more reserve power/manifold pressure
avaialble than the R-22, which is why the useful load is about 1000
lbs. I rarely fly with 3 people onboard which is why I have a good
margin of reserve power. These engines will typically make it to the
1500 TBO and some go beyond that. The 205 HP may require a top
overhaul on some or all of the cylinders at 1000 to 1200 hours. But
the 225 HP engine used on the "F" or "FX" models will usually make it
to TBO without any problems or top overhaul. The lower TBO times
reflect that they are not derated like the Robbies.

One problem that can occur on the derated Robbie engine is a stuck
valve due to carbon build up and oil coaking. One of my friends
operates a Robbie Mantainece shop and he has seen this a few times. In
one case, the stuck closed valve worn down the associated cam lobe,
would'nt develope power and caused a costly premature overhaul.

Routine manitainence is better on the Robbie but not by a large
amount, the biggest difference is Enstrom reccomends a 15 minute
grease job every 25 hours. Enstrom maintenace is about the same as a
Hughes/Schweizer 269. Enstroms have gotten a bad rap for maintaince
because of untrained mechanics working on them.
Several police departments in California operate Enstroms on a daily
schedule without problems. Pomona Police department has put over
80,000 accident free hours on their fleet, according to the Enstrom
website.

In my opinion, if you get a good pre-buy done by an Enstrom service
center or a factory trained mechanic, and have them do the 100
hour/annaul inspections; you will have a reliable and safe helciopter.

Good luck.

[Bob]

I'd have to echo much of the experience of Ga Chopper. I own an Enstrom
F28A, a 1974 piston model. I too, was looking for a relatively affordable
helicopter for personal use. I was very familiar w/ Robinsons, but I'm very
close to the maximum weight permitted per seat. Robbies have no baggage
space, save that under the seats. And they are terribly unforgiving should
there be a power failure. There is an economic disadvantage too, as when
they time out, the entire aircraft is timed out, and must be overhauled.
The initial price of Robbies with any reasonable time left on them was
significantly more than the price of am A-model Enstrom with comparable
time.

By contrast, the Enstrom hauls a better load, it's roomier for two, and
possible to fly w/ three, it has a baggage compartment, and it's much more
ruggedly constructed. However, it's greatest safety feature is it's
autorotation. It is much more forgiving than a Robinson, something to
carefully consider. My experience with maintenance has been generally good.
I do much of my own work (lube jobs being permitted as owner performed
maintenance) and work with an IA to do the annuals. Other than a TR
gearbox, the maintenance has been stuff that might also be necessary on an
airplane of the same vintage.

I did have a bad experience with a "factory approved" maintenance shop in
Lapeer, MI. They were less then honest in their dealings with me, so I
won't make the mistake of going back there. (I understand that they treat
airplane customers the same way.) The factory has been great, though. I've
had excellent support from them at all times.

For high altitude work (anything above 1000 MSL is high altitude for me) the
turbo-charged Enstroms will deliver much better performance than my normally
aspirated one. Of course, they are newer, and pricier, but good ones are
available if you shop carefully.

Go fly an Enstrom before you buy anything else. It's important that you get
good maintenance, too. Seek out a mechanic familiar with them, or find one
willing to go take the factory training.

I could have bought a lot of other helicopters, and I tried a lot before
buying. I'm delighted with my Enstrom, and put a couple hundred hours on it
each year.

Good luck, and happy safe flying.

RTS


"Ga.Chopper" > wrote in message
om...
> (Badwater Bill) wrote in message
>...
> > On 27 Jan 2004 16:40:04 GMT, (JIM105) wrote:
> >
> > >>I want a personal helicopter for me mostly. My wife will go about 25%
> > >>opf the time.
> > >>
> > >>I'd like to land it at 10,000 feet msl if it will do it, no big loads,
> > >>just some groceries.
> > >>
> > >>How much do they cost and what is the TBO? What should I look for?
> > >>
> > >>I'm serious. I was just about to buy a Robbie, but-damn, the envelope
> > >>is so tight on that ship. However, the thing I don't like about the
> > >>Enstrom is the way they buzz that engine, the probability of an engine
> > >>failure, etc. I like the idea of a turbo, but how does it cool?
> > >>
> > >>Thank you for anything you can tell me or for directing me to some
> > >>people who know
> > >>
> > >>
> > >You will never operate an Enstrom for the same price as a Robbi. On
the other
> > >hand, the Enstrom is much more versatile. the F28F can carry three in
a pinch
> > >(you will be good friends by the end of the flight though). The ride
quality
> > >is good and the autorotations are the best of any piston except the
Bell 47.
> > >
> > >I haven't flown one in probably 15 years, but as far as 10,000 feet,
I'd look
> > >hard at the performance numbers of any piston helicopter. The lamiflex
> > >bearings were a hassle, although I think Enstrom has a new system these
days.
> > >Engine does tend to work hard and I don't remember seeing many go to
TBO.
> > >
> > >All in all I really enjoyed flying them. Of course the key to it is to
find a
> > >mechanic that knows Enstroms in your area. It can make or break your
> > >experience.
> > >
> > >Jim
> >
> > That's interesting Jim. Thanks for the input. I know they suck the
> > guts out of that piston engine, but I hear the flying characteristics
> > are superb. What I like about the R-22 is the lack of maintenace and
> > the engine is so derated it probably won't ever fail. But, if it
> > does, then you better be spring loaded to get that collective bottomed
> > in 1 second or you are toast. All of this is a toss up. In the
> > Enstrom buzzing that O-360 and demanding 220 hp out of an engine
> > designed for 160 hp worries me, especially in a helo.
> >
> > What do you know about the turbine ship? The 480 is it? Anybody got
> > any experience with that baby?
> >
> > BWB
>
> I have an Enstrom F-28"C-2", same cabin as the "F" model but has the
> 205 HP versus the 225 HP. I am a private owner/operator and do all my
> own maintenance as as A&P mechanic and have been to the factory
> maintainence course. There are a couple of myths about Enstrom piston
> models I would like to address.
>
> The HIO-360 series engines used in the Enstroms obviously are not
> derated like the Robbies, but they also do not have the "guts sucked
> out" of them. You actually have more reserve power/manifold pressure
> avaialble than the R-22, which is why the useful load is about 1000
> lbs. I rarely fly with 3 people onboard which is why I have a good
> margin of reserve power. These engines will typically make it to the
> 1500 TBO and some go beyond that. The 205 HP may require a top
> overhaul on some or all of the cylinders at 1000 to 1200 hours. But
> the 225 HP engine used on the "F" or "FX" models will usually make it
> to TBO without any problems or top overhaul. The lower TBO times
> reflect that they are not derated like the Robbies.
>
> One problem that can occur on the derated Robbie engine is a stuck
> valve due to carbon build up and oil coaking. One of my friends
> operates a Robbie Mantainece shop and he has seen this a few times. In
> one case, the stuck closed valve worn down the associated cam lobe,
> would'nt develope power and caused a costly premature overhaul.
>
> Routine manitainence is better on the Robbie but not by a large
> amount, the biggest difference is Enstrom reccomends a 15 minute
> grease job every 25 hours. Enstrom maintenace is about the same as a
> Hughes/Schweizer 269. Enstroms have gotten a bad rap for maintaince
> because of untrained mechanics working on them.
> Several police departments in California operate Enstroms on a daily
> schedule without problems. Pomona Police department has put over
> 80,000 accident free hours on their fleet, according to the Enstrom
> website.
>
> In my opinion, if you get a good pre-buy done by an Enstrom service
> center or a factory trained mechanic, and have them do the 100
> hour/annaul inspections; you will have a reliable and safe helciopter.
>
> Good luck.
>