2015 SSA Contest Selection

[Rolf - OS]

Sorry. I can't contain my frustrations any longer.
Caesar Creek Soaring Club was awarded the 2015 Sports Class Nationals over a year ago with the dates set for June 22 through 3 July. Now the SSA is patting themselves on the back by scheduling the 2015 18M, Open, and Club Class Nationals at Hobbs, NM for (what dates?) - June 22 through 3 July.
For an organization that is trying to increase their contest participation, they have just hurt participation at both contests. Rather than schedule to allow you to participate in both contests; Now you have to decide which contest to go to.
I'm just shaking my head.
Rolf Hegele

[Burt Compton - Marfa Gliders, west Texas]

Well, you could contact your SSA Regional Directors and Directors at Large via the SSA website.

They will meet soon, September 13 in Charlotte for their fall SSA meeting so you need to get in touch now and perhaps get this back on the agenda. Probably best to contact your specific regional Director first to learn the background about the decision. Much of the essential SSA business is conducted in VOLUNTEER committees and by the Executive Committee (EXCOM.) It works, for the most part, but SSA members need to make their thoughts known to their Director or through the Committees (also listed on the SSA website) well in advance of the agenda setting process for the fall and winter annual meetings.

Find the list of your Directors at the SSA website, click on tabs at the top of the page: The SSA, then About the SSA, then Governance. At the bottom of the list you can click and send your thoughts to the entire group of Directors at once. The Directors at Large are a separate list but it has the same e-mail capability.

I imagine that there are many factors in choosing these 2015 contest dates, likely based on the local club preferences and the volunteers than host the contests, but your point is well-taken.


Commenting now in advance to the inevitable inquiries: Sorry but I cannot offer Marfa, Texas, as a contest site for political and personal reasons. You'll just have to watch "The Sun Ship Game" film of the 1969 Nationals (available from Paul Remde at Cumulus_Soaring.) Yep, I was there . . . saw 85 sailplanes and met the legends of soaring flying a variety of wooden, aluminum and first-generation glass ships with the "Open" single-class rules of "run what you brung!" Only one US National contest was held back then and it was our "Oshkosh" for two weeks every summer. Won't happen again and that huge WWII Marfa Army Air Field seen in the film has returned to nature. Nevertheless I have a big bronze plaque outside of my glider hangar on the Marfa Airport honoring those glory days, as the 15th National Landmark of Soaring, compliments of our National Soaring Museum in Elmira, NY. It's very nice.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, August 25, 2014 10:21:47 PM UTC-4, Rolf - OS wrote:
> Sorry. I can't contain my frustrations any longer.
>
> Caesar Creek Soaring Club was awarded the 2015 Sports Class Nationals over a year ago with the dates set for June 22 through 3 July. Now the SSA is patting themselves on the back by scheduling the 2015 18M, Open, and Club Class Nationals at Hobbs, NM for (what dates?) - June 22 through 3 July.
>
> For an organization that is trying to increase their contest participation, they have just hurt participation at both contests. Rather than schedule to allow you to participate in both contests; Now you have to decide which contest to go to.
>
> I'm just shaking my head.
>
> Rolf Hegele

I think there is little meaningful conflict. It MIGHT affect 2 or 3 18M pilots, no Opens and likely only a very few Club pilots. Most of the population of Club are a bit younger with much more limited vacation than us old guys and are likely to only be able to fly one Nationals.
I look forward to being at CCSC in '15.
UH

[Sean Fidler]

Rolf this is a bummer for sure. I would have liked to have attended both events. Maybe it is still possible to get this changed?

Regardless, I am certain that you will have a very well attended event! Ceasar Creek is a great place to fly and is very benign.

Keep us informed.

Sean

[CLewis95]

I'll be at CCSC 2015 Sports Nats! - :)

Curt Lewis - 95
Genesis 2

[ND]

On Tuesday, August 26, 2014 8:52:52 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Monday, August 25, 2014 10:21:47 PM UTC-4, Rolf - OS wrote:
>
> > Sorry. I can't contain my frustrations any longer.
>
> >
>
> > Caesar Creek Soaring Club was awarded the 2015 Sports Class Nationals over a year ago with the dates set for June 22 through 3 July. Now the SSA is patting themselves on the back by scheduling the 2015 18M, Open, and Club Class Nationals at Hobbs, NM for (what dates?) - June 22 through 3 July.
>
> >
>
> > For an organization that is trying to increase their contest participation, they have just hurt participation at both contests. Rather than schedule to allow you to participate in both contests; Now you have to decide which contest to go to.
>
> >
>
> > I'm just shaking my head.
>
> >
>
> > Rolf Hegele
>
>
>
> I think there is little meaningful conflict. It MIGHT affect 2 or 3 18M pilots, no Opens and likely only a very few Club pilots. Most of the population of Club are a bit younger with much more limited vacation than us old guys and are likely to only be able to fly one Nationals.
>
> I look forward to being at CCSC in '15.
>
> UH

looks like i'm driving to new mexico instead of ohio....bummer. on the other hand, the california guys are thinking, i "only" have to drive to new mexico now!

[Tony[_5_]]

Andy,

Odds are it will be worth the drive. Hopefully ill see you there.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, August 29, 2014 2:41:22 PM UTC-5, ND wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> looks like i'm driving to new mexico instead of ohio....bummer. on the other hand, the california guys are thinking, i "only" have to drive to new mexico now!

But you'll get to go through Missouri two years in a row, 4 times total :-)

Plus you get NM Wx potential vs. central Ohio weather potential ... no guarantees to either.

EY

[MNLou]

I just send my Regional Director an e-mail asking that SSA pull the Club Nationals from Hobbs on that week and reschedule.

The current schedule makes no sense from a participation point of view and could significantly and negatively impact the contest at Ceasar Creek.

Lou

[MNLou]

Make that "sent":(

On Saturday, August 30, 2014 1:49:53 PM UTC-5, MNLou wrote:
> I just send my Regional Director an e-mail asking that SSA pull the Club Nationals from Hobbs on that week and reschedule.
>
>
>
> The current schedule makes no sense from a participation point of view and could significantly and negatively impact the contest at Ceasar Creek.
>
>
>
> Lou

[Retting]

In Response to UH above, I for one was planning on attending both 18m and the Sports. And if you are correct with only 2-3 pilots in both 18m and Club Class, that would be a loss of approx. $6,000 for Hobbs and $3,000 for CCSC understanding of course that this money is spread around.
This difference could be a contest breaking even or in the Red, which really ****es the organizers off, I can only imagine. All because of scheduling that was decided over a year in advance, and that I can only imagine goes a long way to escalating the pondering by many as to what possess the SSA to **** off many when perhaps it was not even necessary.
But hey...maybe there was a reason...UH....???
UH????Was it necessary to anger the membership?
Rolf??? There should be an answer as to why. Did they not provide you with a reason? After all...CCSC and the contest Organizers are entitled to an answer.
They will be losing the money.
Unbelievable.
Hey!!! Lets have some feedback...anyone else hoping to attend both???
R

[Tim[_11_]]

On Saturday, August 30, 2014 5:32:28 PM UTC-5, Retting wrote:
<SNIP>
I do not want to get snarky, but I've got to...

This last post and others in this thread go a long way to proving that Sports Class nationals is a "class of convenience" and not real racing class. As UH stated in his original post, most of us in Club Class do not have vacation time or $'s to go traipsing around the country wily nilly spending precious 4's for sporting glory.

Thank you RC for finally allowing Club Class to get its own Nationals so we can really race against our peers (gliders and income). I would LOVE to have the option in my 304C (or a Libelle) to have totally fair, multiple opportunities for Nationals-level racing. But the rules don't give me 2 or more Nationals.

I'll go wherever Club Class Nationals is sited and that is all I can do.

EY

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, August 30, 2014 6:32:28 PM UTC-4, Retting wrote:
> In Response to UH above, I for one was planning on attending both 18m and the Sports. And if you are correct with only 2-3 pilots in both 18m and Club Class, that would be a loss of approx. $6,000 for Hobbs and $3,000 for CCSC understanding of course that this money is spread around.
>
> This difference could be a contest breaking even or in the Red, which really ****es the organizers off, I can only imagine. All because of scheduling that was decided over a year in advance, and that I can only imagine goes a long way to escalating the pondering by many as to what possess the SSA to **** off many when perhaps it was not even necessary.
>
> But hey...maybe there was a reason...UH....???
>
> UH????Was it necessary to anger the membership?
>
> Rolf??? There should be an answer as to why. Did they not provide you with a reason? After all...CCSC and the contest Organizers are entitled to an answer.
>
> They will be losing the money.
>
> Unbelievable.
>
> Hey!!! Lets have some feedback...anyone else hoping to attend both???
>
> R

I think R overstates things a bit. It is true that participation is very important but the numbers thrown about are way off. In a VERY well run contest the organizers MIGHT clear $100/ per pilot. CCSC tends to do better than this because of their low cost of tows by virtue of using their tugs and pilots which is financially very beneficial.
The "SSA" is a group of volunteers who have no desire to **** anyone off. They put together the best schedule they can based upon what organizers offer to run, part of which is organizers preferred schedule.
Club just broke free this year and I suspect Hobbs picked up because they were the only viable group that could add it for 2015.
MNLou says pull Club for Hobbs and reschedule. Where would he propose to put Club? It is the express intent to break Club away from Sports and 2015 is the first year it will be apart.
The kind of nastiness that comes from some of these exchanges, including the implication that some evil plan might be behind these decisions, is what has caused our SSA contest leadership to lose a number of key long term volunteers over the last 2 years. My rough estimate is a loss of about 70 years of aggregate experience lost during this time.
I have been planning to go to CCSC, but think maybe I'll reconsider.
How about we play nice kids.
UH

[MNLou]

Some clarification if I may -

1) I am hoping a regional contest at a different time will step up and offer to host the Club Nationals and thus avoid the conflict.
2) I very much appreciate everyone who volunteers within our sport - at the individual, club, and national level. I had no intent to criticize anyone and apologize if my comments came across as such.
3) I think running Club Nationals at the same time as Open and 18M Nationals could cause some logistics / tasking problems for the Hobbs team. Taking out the Club competitors might simplify the Hobbs contest.

Lou

[Retting]

The question remains .....unanswered. Why?
I never stated it was the desire of the Site Committee to anger people, note the word desire. However base on historical dating of the Nationals not being on the same date, one would expect that trend to continue and the Committee would be most aware of these facts.
No one can deny the disappointments and if a Contest Manager of a National Championship is force to express his frustrations thru a open forum, it can only mean that he was unable to get answers thru the normal channel. It is well known that there is a strong rift thru the middle of CCSC and perhaps UH advice of 'playing nice' should be the standard, irregardless who has the power and who does not.
It is a sad day when 'Volunteers' use that noble service as a sword for silencing the very group they serve. They have lost purpose of their duty.
R

[JS]

Thought the Club and Sport classes only need to separate at a handicap point.
For example, AU 2009/10 Club/Sports Nationals list below.
Everyone had fun.
Jim

Reg Call Sign Name P2 Name Glider Class
VH-GMF MF BARNES, Allan LS1 f Club
VH-IUZ UZ BUTTENSHAW, Allan Std Cirrus Club
VH-IID IID CLARK, Todd LS4 Club
VH-FQM QM CODLING, Mike Hornet Club
VH-VWV V4 COLLINGS, Craig ASW19B Club
VH-EAT AT CROWHURST, ASW 19 Club
VH-GLB LB DALTON, Mark Libelle 201B Club
VH-GWL WL DAVIS, Joanne ASW 19 Club
VH-GJJ JJ ENGLISH, Brendan LS 7 WL Club
VH-XJY XJY GREIG, Andrew LS7 Club
VH-GJE JE HAYHOW, Bryan Discus B Club
VH-GKO KO HOSKINGS, Richard ASW 20C Club
VH-XKD XKD KAUFFMANN,Kris Discus CS Club
VH-ZXT XT KUSIAK, Ziggy SZD - 55 Club
VH-XQV XQV LINNET, Christian Std Cirrus Club
VH-GAK AK MANDER, Paul Libelle Club
VH-WQF WQF MOSIEJEWSKI, Jaroslav PIK 20B Club
VH-GMV MV NOWAK, Chad Hornet Club
VH-GZZ ZZ PIETSCH, David ASW 20 Club
VH-IZE IZE RITCHIE, Philip LS4a Club
VH-MXP MXP SINGER, Nick PIK 20E Club
VH-XKE XKB SLY, Mick Discus CS Club
VH-GOP OP SOUTHGATE, Phillip Std Cirrus Club
VH-IKX IKX SPEIGHT, Garry GOERDEL, Maren Twin Astir Club
VH-HDY HDY STEVENSON, Gary ASW 20 Club
VH-IIC IIC TROTTER, Peter ASW 20A Club
VH-VCS VCS VOLK, Philip Discus CS Club
VH- GFP FP WALKER, Robin TBA Grob 103 Club
VH-XOT OT WILKINSON, Bill Discus B Club
VH-GWR WR WOOLEY, Adam LS1 f Club
VH-GMT MT ANDERSON, Jay LS6 a Sports
VH-IUO IUO BROWN, Simon Discus 2c Sports
VH-FQF FQF BUELTER, Rolf LS8 T Sports
VH-ZAB ZAB CARR, Tim Duo Discus Sports
VH-KTC TC CLAFFEY, Kerrie ASW 28 Sports
VH-XTK TK CLAFFEY, Tom ASG 29 Sports
VH-XJS XJS CLEAVER, Mike LS6 Sports
VH-OBH BH HATFIELD, Bill LAK 17-18 Sports
VH-XOZ OZ HEDLEY, Steve EDWARDS, Ross Nimbus 3DM Sports
VH-IDJ 4D JANSEN, David ASG -29(E) Sports
VH-YHK HK KAUFFMANN, Hank ASG 29 Sports
VH-XGK XGK KOLB, Greg Ventus 2 cxt Sports
VH-VSL SLUT LUTTON, Stuart LS 8 Sports
VH-GWB AK MCLEAN,Ross LS8a Sports
VH-KRJ RJ MEDLICOTT, Harry Ventus 2CXT Sports
VH-XGG GG SCHMIDT, Greg LS8 Sports
VH-ZDS ZDS SHORTER, Dave Discus 2B Sports
VH-ITB TB SMITH, Andy Ventus B Sports
VH-GKU KU SPLETTER, Errol LS8 Sports
VH-VTT TT TABBART, Tony Ventus 2 CM Sports
VH-ZKT KT TAYLOR, Bruce Ventus 2cxt Sports
VH-VIT IT TEESE, Ivan ASG 29 E Sports
VH-PNL PNL TROTTER, Lisa LS8 Sports
VH-VCX VCX TURNER, Frank Ventus 2CX-M Sports
VH-ZDW ZDW/3 WILSON, Dave ASG 29 Sports
VH-OKZ KZ WILSON, Tim LS 8 Sports
VH-ULZ LZ ZEHNDER, Lars Ventus 2CX Sports

[noel.wade]

R -

You don't get it, do you??? UH and others don't "decide" when and where these contests are held. They're not in the shadows pulling strings and arranging everything.

They're lucky to get ONE or mayyyyybe TWO sites to volunteer for each nationals. They have to take what they can get, and if the various groups were only willing to hold their events on these dates - then that's what's going to happen.

Spare us your rudeness and venom, especially if you don't understand the system. Better yet - try ACTUALLY volunteering to run events, so that you DO understand.

--Noel

[Retting]

Easy Noel easy.....
UH knows I was asking him to answer Rolf questions. He is the frustrated volunteer Contest Manager , remember. UH is a trusted Gatekeeper along with Diane who can find answers others need.
You also do not have all the information that would allow your post to be accurate on all counts.
As a life member since 74', I have volunteer some like give free instruction for 25 years. And guess who help run the only Thanksgiving Holiday Regional (1976).
Tadbery,Green, Utley and others were there. I ran Ops.,developed film, weather sounding, retrieved, towed and drove 22 miles to get beer. Indiantown, FL. The DC-9 was approved for grass landing there. 7500 feet hard turf.
Small amount when compared with so many others...
You are right...I should volunteer some more.
Hey....call up Rolf and get answers for him.
Show us how it's done.
R

[Sean Fidler]

If it helps, and I am not sure it will, I am willing to do what it takes to organize and host Club nationals for 2015 in Ionia (CM and/or CD) on some "other" date. I wish to strongly support Club Class in any way I can.

That said, here is another idea. Since the premier Club Class event in the USA next year will absolutely be the FAI Club Class Continental Championship event in Chilhowee (Cat 1 FAI points), why are we organizing a separate US Club Nationals in Hobbs? Why don't we just call the Chilhowee event the 2015 US Nationals as it basically is regardless of what it is called? It seems silly to have two major Club events in 2015 as most (see EY)will have to choose just one. Just a thought. ;-)

Lastly, (Rolf) I know this might be annoying, but, has CCSC looked into moving their event date? It seems easy to me to change event dates this far out. I would think between Hobbs or CCSC one could move the date.

Sean

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, August 31, 2014 6:12:11 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> If it helps, and I am not sure it will, I am willing to do what it takes to organize and host Club nationals for 2015 in Ionia (CM and/or CD) on some "other" date. I wish to strongly support Club Class in any way I can.
>
>
>
> That said, here is another idea. Since the premier Club Class event in the USA next year will absolutely be the FAI Club Class Continental Championship event in Chilhowee (Cat 1 FAI points), why are we organizing a separate US Club Nationals in Hobbs? Why don't we just call the Chilhowee event the 2015 US Nationals as it basically is regardless of what it is called? It seems silly to have two major Club events in 2015 as most (see EY)will have to choose just one. Just a thought. ;-)
>
>
>
> Lastly, (Rolf) I know this might be annoying, but, has CCSC looked into moving their event date? It seems easy to me to change event dates this far out. I would think between Hobbs or CCSC one could move the date.
>
>
>
> Sean

Club for '15 is to be in the "West" with Sports in the East. This is the planned rotation to keep them apart.
The Continental event is run by entirely different rules, including eligibility to participate, and as such isn't a US Nationals.
UH

[Jim - 77]

Hank,

As Rolf stated in his OP, Caesar Creek was awarded this date a YEAR AGO...why would you allow this confict to occur now......R asks WHY WHY...no good answer yet

Jim Price

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, August 31, 2014 9:08:21 PM UTC-4, Jim - 77 wrote:
> Hank,
>
>
>
> As Rolf stated in his OP, Caesar Creek was awarded this date a YEAR AGO...why would you allow this confict to occur now......R asks WHY WHY...no good answer yet
>
>
>
> Jim Price

I am not part of this process with the exception that, as part of the RC, I worked on putting into place the process by which Club class would become an independent class. That process has bee ongoing for several years.
The second part of that process is to break it free from Sports and place it at a venue on the opposite side of the country in rotation.
That begins next year and was implemented by the current members of the RC and contest board.
I am not active as a member of the contest board so please do not ask me why I did things that I did not do.
UH

[MNLou]

I just read the latest SSA E-News. The Club and Sport Nats are still on the same dates.

[Rolf - OS]

Just wanted to bring this thread to an end and address the issues that have come up. First I did contact my Regional Director and he did discuss the issue at the last meeting in an informal manner. His feedback indicated that the Site selection Committee did not think there would be an impact (even though I now know of five participants that would make the trip to Hobbs; potentially impacting our contest by 10 to 20%, depending on the number of contestants). I also want to indicate that the SSA did ask us if we would object to separating Sports and Club Class. We concurred with that action; not ever thinking the dates would fall on top of one another (I suspect our response would have been different had we known).
I appreciate UH responding to some of the comments and taking some unexpected and unnecessary hits. Sean, we did look at alternate dates and felt we had picked the best possible dates to hold a Nationals within a fairly narrow band of weather and opportunity. The dates for both contests will stay the same so come on out to the best midwest soaring possible at the 2015 Sports Class Nationals at CCSC.
Rolf

PS. Does anyone know how to get rid of the (me)? It doesn't change when I modify the profile.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Monday, September 29, 2014 7:42:53 PM UTC-6, Rolf - OS wrote:
> Just wanted to bring this thread to an end and address the issues that have come up. First I did contact my Regional Director and he did discuss the issue at the last meeting in an informal manner. His feedback indicated that the Site selection Committee did not think there would be an impact (even though I now know of five participants that would make the trip to Hobbs; potentially impacting our contest by 10 to 20%, depending on the number of contestants). I also want to indicate that the SSA did ask us if we would object to separating Sports and Club Class. We concurred with that action; not ever thinking the dates would fall on top of one another (I suspect our response would have been different had we known).
>
> I appreciate UH responding to some of the comments and taking some unexpected and unnecessary hits. Sean, we did look at alternate dates and felt we had picked the best possible dates to hold a Nationals within a fairly narrow band of weather and opportunity. The dates for both contests will stay the same so come on out to the best midwest soaring possible at the 2015 Sports Class Nationals at CCSC.
>
> Rolf
>
>
>
> PS. Does anyone know how to get rid of the (me)? It doesn't change when I modify the profile.

WRT to using Google Groups, you see the 'me' for your posts, but we don't. I see the 'me' for my posts.

Frank Whiteley

[[email protected]]

Rolf - Really sorry about this. A lot of moving parts are involved in scheduling all these events during the "sweet spot" of our spring/early summer soaring season and I'm sure it is difficult for everyone to coordinate. I for one would have definitely done both events (Ceasar Creek is only a few hours away from home for me) and I am bummed that the date can't be adjusted. Nationals held in the Midwest are rare things and it is really sad that I will have to miss it! It will be a great event. Ceasar Creek is a great place to fly! I'll try and get the MI boys fired up about it.

Sean
7T