Ground 350 run without blades?

[Sla#s]

Has anyone ever run a AS 350 or 355 without the Main rotor blades fitted?
We do it all the time with our 315 but I've never heard of it with a
Squirrel / A Star.
It would make tail rotor balancing a lot easier for a start - i.e. no pilot
needed. That's what we do with our Lama and use to do with our Alouettes.
No one here wants to risk it - "The engines will overspeed" - " It will over
speed the gearbox" - " It will over speed/torque the tail rotor" etc. etc.

Anyone any real info as opposed to opinions?


Slatts

[Stan Gosnell]

"Sla#s" > wrote in
:

> Has anyone ever run a AS 350 or 355 without the Main rotor blades
> fitted? We do it all the time with our 315 but I've never heard of it
> with a Squirrel / A Star.
> It would make tail rotor balancing a lot easier for a start - i.e. no
> pilot needed. That's what we do with our Lama and use to do with our
> Alouettes. No one here wants to risk it - "The engines will overspeed"
> - " It will over speed the gearbox" - " It will over speed/torque the
> tail rotor" etc. etc.

Why don't you go ahead and try it and let us know?

Why do you need a pilot? Our mechanics (engineers) are trained to do
groundruns in skid-mounted helicopters, up to and including Bell 412s.
They do all the tail rotor balancing, etc themselves.

--
Regards,

Stan

[Sla#s]

"Stan Gosnell" > wrote in message
...
> "Sla#s" > wrote in
> :
>
> > Has anyone ever run a AS 350 or 355 without the Main rotor blades
> > fitted? We do it all the time with our 315 but I've never heard of it
> > with a Squirrel / A Star.
> > It would make tail rotor balancing a lot easier for a start - i.e. no
> > pilot needed. That's what we do with our Lama and use to do with our
> > Alouettes. No one here wants to risk it - "The engines will overspeed"
> > - " It will over speed the gearbox" - " It will over speed/torque the
> > tail rotor" etc. etc.
>
> Why don't you go ahead and try it and let us know?
>

:-) But that's the problem "The Management" will not let us. I have been
doing it to 3180s & 315s since the 60s but the doom mongers say we can't
with the newer ships. However they have never produced any evidence against.
On the other hand I can't find any for! That's why I'm asking :-)

> Why do you need a pilot? Our mechanics (engineers) are trained to do
> groundruns in skid-mounted helicopters, up to and including Bell 412s.
> They do all the tail rotor balancing, etc themselves.

Yes again in the 60s we did but there was one accident when an engineer
wrecked a machine. So since then the insurance companies will not let us.

Slatts

[Stan Gosnell]

"Sla#s" > wrote in
:

>
>:-) But that's the problem "The Management" will not let us. I have
>:been
> doing it to 3180s & 315s since the 60s but the doom mongers say we
> can't with the newer ships. However they have never produced any
> evidence against. On the other hand I can't find any for! That's why
> I'm asking :-)

If management says don't do it, why do you want to? They know you can't do
it, so they can't blame you if the work doesn't get done. OTOH, if
something bad happens, you'll get the blame. Accept the fact that you're
required to do less work, with less responsibility for damage and/or lack
of productivity. Don't look gift horses in the mouth.

> Yes again in the 60s we did but there was one accident when an
> engineer wrecked a machine. So since then the insurance companies
> will not let us.

We've wrecked a few, too, but the mechs still run them up. If you can't,
then don't fight it. See above advice about gift horses.

--
Regards,

Stan

[Bob]

That is real info. What does balancing a tail rotor have to do with Main
Rotor Blades? I'm a maintenance guy who has bee ground running helicopters
for almost 20 years. By the way Main Rotor Blades is what helps to make it
a HELICOPTER. Which bunch of Yahoos are WE? Any PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATION
that the PROFESSIONAL avaition community might be familiar with???

[Ash Wyllie]

Sla#s opined

>"Stan Gosnell" > wrote in message
...
>> "Sla#s" > wrote in
>> :
>>
>> > Has anyone ever run a AS 350 or 355 without the Main rotor blades
>> > fitted? We do it all the time with our 315 but I've never heard of it
>> > with a Squirrel / A Star.
>> > It would make tail rotor balancing a lot easier for a start - i.e. no
>> > pilot needed. That's what we do with our Lama and use to do with our
>> > Alouettes. No one here wants to risk it - "The engines will overspeed"
>> > - " It will over speed the gearbox" - " It will over speed/torque the
>> > tail rotor" etc. etc.
>>
>> Why don't you go ahead and try it and let us know?
>>

>:-) But that's the problem "The Management" will not let us. I have been
>doing it to 3180s & 315s since the 60s but the doom mongers say we can't
>with the newer ships. However they have never produced any evidence against.
>On the other hand I can't find any for! That's why I'm asking :-)

>> Why do you need a pilot? Our mechanics (engineers) are trained to do
>> groundruns in skid-mounted helicopters, up to and including Bell 412s.
>> They do all the tail rotor balancing, etc themselves.

>Yes again in the 60s we did but there was one accident when an engineer
>wrecked a machine. So since then the insurance companies will not let us.

So, I guess that it OK for pilots to wreck a machine.



-ash
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?

[Sla#s]

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
> That is real info. What does balancing a tail rotor have to do with Main
> Rotor Blades? I'm a maintenance guy who has bee ground running
helicopters
> for almost 20 years. By the way Main Rotor Blades is what helps to make
it
> a HELICOPTER. Which bunch of Yahoos are WE? Any PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATION
> that the PROFESSIONAL avaition community might be familiar with???
>

You are missing the point. On 3180s & 315s one runs the machine without the
blades to centre a new servo. (If you don't have a hydraulic rig on site)
That is a standard practice. So one might as well do the tail rotor whilst
you are at it. AND Its a hell of a lot quicker than when the MRBs are
fitted. OK those machines have a clutch but I still say it would also be
quicker - and safer - to do maintenance runs on 350/355s, that did not
involve needing the MRBs, without them.

Slatts

[me]

Sla#s wrote:

> "Bob" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>That is real info. What does balancing a tail rotor have to do with Main
>>Rotor Blades? I'm a maintenance guy who has bee ground running
>
> helicopters
>
>>for almost 20 years. By the way Main Rotor Blades is what helps to make
>
> it
>
>>a HELICOPTER. Which bunch of Yahoos are WE? Any PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATION
>>that the PROFESSIONAL avaition community might be familiar with???
>>
>
>
> You are missing the point. On 3180s & 315s one runs the machine without the
> blades to centre a new servo. (If you don't have a hydraulic rig on site)
> That is a standard practice. So one might as well do the tail rotor whilst
> you are at it. AND Its a hell of a lot quicker than when the MRBs are
> fitted. OK those machines have a clutch but I still say it would also be
> quicker - and safer - to do maintenance runs on 350/355s, that did not
> involve needing the MRBs, without them.
>
> Slatts
>
>


What does the manufacture have to say on this matter. They write the
maintenance manual.

rm

[Sla#s]

"me" > wrote in message
om.au...

>
> What does the manufacture have to say on this matter. They write the
> maintenance manual.
>

I'm checking the 350 manuals but nothing so far.

The running 315/3180 without blades was shown to us by the factory rep when
we first bought it.

Slatts

[Eric D]

> > What does the manufacture have to say on this matter. They write the
> > maintenance manual.
> >
>
> I'm checking the 350 manuals but nothing so far.
>
> The running 315/3180 without blades was shown to us by the factory rep when
> we first bought it.
>
> Slatts

Factory rep or not, if it isn't in one of the maintenance manuals as
one of the proceedures, you would be wise not to do it. One of the
concerns I would have is the affect on other components without the
inertia of the main rotors in the system. Could you unknowingly
damage something in the driveline? The manufacture is the best source
for figuring this type of thing out.

Eric D

[Sla#s]

"Eric D" > wrote in message
om...
> > > What does the manufacture have to say on this matter. They write the
> > > maintenance manual.
> > >
> >
> > I'm checking the 350 manuals but nothing so far.
> >
> > The running 315/3180 without blades was shown to us by the factory rep
when
> > we first bought it.
> >
> > Slatts
>
> Factory rep or not, if it isn't in one of the maintenance manuals as
> one of the proceedures, you would be wise not to do it. One of the
> concerns I would have is the affect on other components without the
> inertia of the main rotors in the system. Could you unknowingly
> damage something in the driveline? The manufacture is the best source
> for figuring this type of thing out.
>

Yes, there is nothing in either manual.
I've checked with a couple of engineers who worked on Alouettes they all ran
them without blades. It's a standard procedure. (How else are you going to
change a servo in the field?)

Slatts

[Eric D]

"Sla#s" > wrote in message >...

> > > Slatts
> >
> > Factory rep or not, if it isn't in one of the maintenance manuals as
> > one of the proceedures, you would be wise not to do it. One of the
> > concerns I would have is the affect on other components without the
> > inertia of the main rotors in the system. Could you unknowingly
> > damage something in the driveline? The manufacture is the best source
> > for figuring this type of thing out.
> >
>
> Yes, there is nothing in either manual.
> I've checked with a couple of engineers who worked on Alouettes they all ran
> them without blades. It's a standard procedure. (How else are you going to
> change a servo in the field?)
>
> Slatts

Slatts,

From your last posting see UK in the link above. I had thought you
were located here in the US. Sorry.

In the US, to be a standard maintenance procedure it better be in the
current maintenance manual. Short of that, it needs to be in a,
Service Bulletin, Advisory Directive or some type of written process
from the manufacture in order to be acceptable to the FAA. Performing
any maintenance without something acceptable to the FAA and you are
setting yourself up for loss of license and possible legal liability.

Sorry to say I have no suggestion to help you find what you are
looking for.

Eric D

[Sla#s]

"Eric D" > wrote in message
om...
<SNIP>
> In the US, to be a standard maintenance procedure it better be in the
> current maintenance manual. Short of that, it needs to be in a,
> Service Bulletin, Advisory Directive or some type of written process
> from the manufacture in order to be acceptable to the FAA. Performing
> any maintenance without something acceptable to the FAA and you are
> setting yourself up for loss of license and possible legal liability.

That is unfortunately is what is starting to happen here. In the past when
one signed on one's licence you took the responsibility for what you did.
Nowadays when one signs on a company approval as you say if it is not in
the book somewhere it can't be done. I guess with old fashioned machines
that was not a problem but now they are too complicated for one person to
use his judgement :-)
I'm talking about machines where the M&O manual was less an inch thick as
opposed to some today where they take up six feet of shelf space!

Slatts