2015 18m Nationals

[Andy K]

Could anyone explain why 2 years in a row we have 18 m Nationals on the west coast? This year Minden and next year Hobbs. As far as I remember Bermuda High was willing to host the 18m Nationals in 2015. This arrangement is totally unfair to East Coast pilots.

Does that mean 2016 and 2017 are going to be on the East coast?

I know some of the decision makers read this news group maybe someone is going to comment?

AK

[[email protected]]

Hobbs is on the west coast? He'll of a drive to the beach!

[Tim Taylor]

On Saturday, September 20, 2014 2:51:52 PM UTC-6, Andy K wrote:
> Could anyone explain why 2 years in a row we have 18 m Nationals on the west coast? This year Minden and next year Hobbs. As far as I remember Bermuda High was willing to host the 18m Nationals in 2015. This arrangement is totally unfair to East Coast pilots.
>
>
>
> Does that mean 2016 and 2017 are going to be on the East coast?
>
>
>
> I know some of the decision makers read this news group maybe someone is going to comment?
>
>
>
> AK

Andy,

I am surprised it took so long for someone to comment on the sad state of US contest planning.

Many years ago there was some basic rules that were suppose to be followed for contest planning.

1. Standard and 18M would be held together and 15M and Open would be together. 2. These two contest would be held on opposite sides of the country each year.

This logical approach would have allowed Standard pilots to flying in 15M, 15m to fly in 18M and 18M to fly in Open in alternate years when their class was not on their side of the country.

Unfortunately this plan has fallen by the wayside and we now have chaos. In 2015 we will have both Standard and 15M on the east coast and 18M will be in the west again for an other year. For 2016 we have both Standard and 15M at the same location rather than on opposite sides of the country like it is suppose to be.

Some of us have tried to encourage a better planning system for contests and also advocated for East/West nationals to end the confusion and encourage greater participation. Why should we have to drive 2500 miles to compete in our own class with a group of quality pilots? On average only one to two pilots cross the Mississippi to compete unless a contest is Mid-continent.

I have advocated for a Request For Proposals (FRP) date of November two years in advance (November 2014 for 2016 contests for example) for contest site requests and so that a logical planning pattern could happen. Any site interested could submit a proposal and all could be evaluated at one time so that contests are held at appropriate sites and allow all pilots to fly in their own class every other year at a minimum. This lead time would allow the selection committee to encourage sites to hold contest if they did not have enough request by November in the correct side of the country.

I have become very concerned about the overall quality of the US pilots going to the Worlds because we are selecting only from those that have the money and time to drive across the country each year or those that get lucky enough to have contests line up in their half of the country during selection periods.

I am glad to see the Pan-American contest being organized for next year, just wish it was being held during the summer months when more could attend.

Hopefully the contest selection committee and the team selection committee will:
1. Plan ahead and set a date for site proposals.
2. Work to ensure that contest are evenly distributed around the country.
3. Try to avoid placing nationals on the extreme coasts that discourages pilots from attending because of the distance.
4. Change the team selection rules to recognize East and West Championships as being worth 100 team selection points.
5. Merge to team selection list for Standard, 15M and 18M so that points count across classes.

TT

[Andy K]

On Saturday, September 20, 2014 6:29:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Hobbs is on the west coast? He'll of a drive to the beach!

Okay western US, do you like it better now?

[Andy K]

On Saturday, September 20, 2014 6:31:41 PM UTC-4, Tim Taylor wrote:
> On Saturday, September 20, 2014 2:51:52 PM UTC-6, Andy K wrote:
>
> > Could anyone explain why 2 years in a row we have 18 m Nationals on the west coast? This year Minden and next year Hobbs. As far as I remember Bermuda High was willing to host the 18m Nationals in 2015. This arrangement is totally unfair to East Coast pilots.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Does that mean 2016 and 2017 are going to be on the East coast?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I know some of the decision makers read this news group maybe someone is going to comment?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > AK
>
>
>
> Andy,
>
>
>
> I am surprised it took so long for someone to comment on the sad state of US contest planning.
>
>
>
> Many years ago there was some basic rules that were suppose to be followed for contest planning.
>
>
>
> 1. Standard and 18M would be held together and 15M and Open would be together. 2. These two contest would be held on opposite sides of the country each year.
>
>
>
> This logical approach would have allowed Standard pilots to flying in 15M, 15m to fly in 18M and 18M to fly in Open in alternate years when their class was not on their side of the country.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately this plan has fallen by the wayside and we now have chaos. In 2015 we will have both Standard and 15M on the east coast and 18M will be in the west again for an other year. For 2016 we have both Standard and 15M at the same location rather than on opposite sides of the country like it is suppose to be.
>
>
>
> Some of us have tried to encourage a better planning system for contests and also advocated for East/West nationals to end the confusion and encourage greater participation. Why should we have to drive 2500 miles to compete in our own class with a group of quality pilots? On average only one to two pilots cross the Mississippi to compete unless a contest is Mid-continent.
>
>
>
> I have advocated for a Request For Proposals (FRP) date of November two years in advance (November 2014 for 2016 contests for example) for contest site requests and so that a logical planning pattern could happen. Any site interested could submit a proposal and all could be evaluated at one time so that contests are held at appropriate sites and allow all pilots to fly in their own class every other year at a minimum. This lead time would allow the selection committee to encourage sites to hold contest if they did not have enough request by November in the correct side of the country.
>
>
>
> I have become very concerned about the overall quality of the US pilots going to the Worlds because we are selecting only from those that have the money and time to drive across the country each year or those that get lucky enough to have contests line up in their half of the country during selection periods.
>
>
>
> I am glad to see the Pan-American contest being organized for next year, just wish it was being held during the summer months when more could attend..
>
>
>
> Hopefully the contest selection committee and the team selection committee will:
>
> 1. Plan ahead and set a date for site proposals.
>
> 2. Work to ensure that contest are evenly distributed around the country.
>
> 3. Try to avoid placing nationals on the extreme coasts that discourages pilots from attending because of the distance.
>
> 4. Change the team selection rules to recognize East and West Championships as being worth 100 team selection points.
>
> 5. Merge to team selection list for Standard, 15M and 18M so that points count across classes.
>
>
>
> TT

Tim, yes this is chaos. It would be nice to hear from people who make these decisions. I would still like to know why Bermuda High was not selected keeping with the tradition East-West-East-...

???

[Ron Gleason]

On Saturday, 20 September 2014 17:17:17 UTC-6, Andy K wrote:
> On Saturday, September 20, 2014 6:31:41 PM UTC-4, Tim Taylor wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, September 20, 2014 2:51:52 PM UTC-6, Andy K wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > Could anyone explain why 2 years in a row we have 18 m Nationals on the west coast? This year Minden and next year Hobbs. As far as I remember Bermuda High was willing to host the 18m Nationals in 2015. This arrangement is totally unfair to East Coast pilots.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Does that mean 2016 and 2017 are going to be on the East coast?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I know some of the decision makers read this news group maybe someone is going to comment?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > AK
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Andy,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I am surprised it took so long for someone to comment on the sad state of US contest planning.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Many years ago there was some basic rules that were suppose to be followed for contest planning.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 1. Standard and 18M would be held together and 15M and Open would be together. 2. These two contest would be held on opposite sides of the country each year.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > This logical approach would have allowed Standard pilots to flying in 15M, 15m to fly in 18M and 18M to fly in Open in alternate years when their class was not on their side of the country.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Unfortunately this plan has fallen by the wayside and we now have chaos.. In 2015 we will have both Standard and 15M on the east coast and 18M will be in the west again for an other year. For 2016 we have both Standard and 15M at the same location rather than on opposite sides of the country like it is suppose to be.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Some of us have tried to encourage a better planning system for contests and also advocated for East/West nationals to end the confusion and encourage greater participation. Why should we have to drive 2500 miles to compete in our own class with a group of quality pilots? On average only one to two pilots cross the Mississippi to compete unless a contest is Mid-continent.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I have advocated for a Request For Proposals (FRP) date of November two years in advance (November 2014 for 2016 contests for example) for contest site requests and so that a logical planning pattern could happen. Any site interested could submit a proposal and all could be evaluated at one time so that contests are held at appropriate sites and allow all pilots to fly in their own class every other year at a minimum. This lead time would allow the selection committee to encourage sites to hold contest if they did not have enough request by November in the correct side of the country.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I have become very concerned about the overall quality of the US pilots going to the Worlds because we are selecting only from those that have the money and time to drive across the country each year or those that get lucky enough to have contests line up in their half of the country during selection periods.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I am glad to see the Pan-American contest being organized for next year, just wish it was being held during the summer months when more could attend.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Hopefully the contest selection committee and the team selection committee will:
>
> >
>
> > 1. Plan ahead and set a date for site proposals.
>
> >
>
> > 2. Work to ensure that contest are evenly distributed around the country.
>
> >
>
> > 3. Try to avoid placing nationals on the extreme coasts that discourages pilots from attending because of the distance.
>
> >
>
> > 4. Change the team selection rules to recognize East and West Championships as being worth 100 team selection points.
>
> >
>
> > 5. Merge to team selection list for Standard, 15M and 18M so that points count across classes.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > TT
>
>
>
> Tim, yes this is chaos. It would be nice to hear from people who make these decisions. I would still like to know why Bermuda High was not selected keeping with the tradition East-West-East-...
>
>
>
> ???

The SSA web site shows the contest site selection committee as:


Chairperson Ms. Linda Murray

Member Mr Peter T Alexander

Member Mr John Lubon

Member Mr Mark Keene


If you go to this page on the SSA web site it also has complete contact information for these members.

[Craig R.]

Hobbs is west coast? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Sport, that is around a 1800+ mile drive for many of us in the Pacific NW. State College PA to Hobbs; that is a SHORTER drive!

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 05:36 21 September 2014, Craig R. wrote:
>Hobbs is west coast? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>Sport, that is around a 1800+ mile drive for many of us in the Pacific
NW.
>State College PA to Hobbs; that is a SHORTER drive!

Er? So why don't you hold it in the middle of the country? Of all the
countries in the world I would have thought that the USA was the place for
a National Gliding Centre

[Andy K]

On Sunday, September 21, 2014 1:36:17 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
> Hobbs is west coast? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>

I already corrected this, just give it a break and concentrate on the fact that there are rules that were established and are not being followed and there is no explanation why exception after exception is being made.

I have no problems with exceptions as long as someone explains the reasoning behind it and it makes sense.

>Sport, that is around a 1800+ mile drive for many of us in the Pacific NW. State College PA to Hobbs; that is a SHORTER drive!

Yes, by only 100 miles. I am not sure what State College PA has to do with this problem. By the way State College is not really North East so if you compare North West to North East it would be more like 2100 miles.

No need to go back and forth on this. As I said I would at least like to understand why we ended up with what we have. As Tim said this is not a well thought through schedule, certainly no one that can drive participation up.

AK

[Larry Goddard[_2_]]

I don't know any specifics about the current situation. However, I do know that it is getting more and more difficult in getting groups to sponsor contests due to significant effort and expense. I suspect that the current situation is due to the fact that they are basically having to take whatever they can get.

Zero One

[Ron Gleason]

On Sunday, 21 September 2014 08:15:09 UTC-6, Andy K wrote:
> On Sunday, September 21, 2014 1:36:17 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
>
> > Hobbs is west coast? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>
> >
>
>
>
> I already corrected this, just give it a break and concentrate on the fact that there are rules that were established and are not being followed and there is no explanation why exception after exception is being made.
>
>
>
> I have no problems with exceptions as long as someone explains the reasoning behind it and it makes sense.
>
>
>
> >Sport, that is around a 1800+ mile drive for many of us in the Pacific NW. State College PA to Hobbs; that is a SHORTER drive!
>
>
>
> Yes, by only 100 miles. I am not sure what State College PA has to do with this problem. By the way State College is not really North East so if you compare North West to North East it would be more like 2100 miles.
>
>
>
> No need to go back and forth on this. As I said I would at least like to understand why we ended up with what we have. As Tim said this is not a well thought through schedule, certainly no one that can drive participation up.
>
>
>
> AK

Andy, if you have not you should visit SSA site and read the Site Selection Page, SailPlane Racing-->Other resources-->Site selection. You will see that the criteria used is vague, i.e. what is the definition of 'zone'? There are no written rules that I am aware just many guidelines and conventions that have been used over the years/decades.

In checking the 2014 FAI Nationals rulebook this is found

2.3 The Application for Sanction (AFS) form should be submitted in time for review prior to the Fall SSA Board of Directors meeting in the
calendar year two years prior to the competition.

Again by using the term 'should' wiggle room is ensured.

We can ponder all we want but IMO contacting the selection committee will be the most expedient way to get answers.

Ron Gleason

[Andy K]

On Sunday, September 21, 2014 10:33:47 AM UTC-4, Larry Goddard wrote:
> I don't know any specifics about the current situation. However, I do know that it is getting more and more difficult in getting groups to sponsor contests due to significant effort and expense. I suspect that the current situation is due to the fact that they are basically having to take whatever they can get.
>
>
>
> Zero One

Larry, as far as I know Bermuda High submitted an offer to host 18 m Nationals. They also spent a huge amount of money a couple of years ago making improvements to their airfield to host heavy ballasted gliders. They cleared forest on the approach as well as cleared forest for the assembly area. They also acquired their own water tank this year as I am told.

They dedicated so much effort and financial resources to the cause of competition soaring it feels really bad they did not get to host the contest and get a little bit of money back.

AK

[Craig R.]

My point was made.
This thread is somewhat of a rehash of an earlier thread about USA Nationals. Here is that thread. You made similar comments then.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/rec.aviation.soaring/no$20contests$20for$202$20years$20in$20the$20west/rec.aviation.soaring/xbLG9wqkBjg/XHNlAU8-444J
However, the thread conversation lost some interest when the west coast pilots mentioned no west coast national contests in 2013. This was also discussed a year prior with similar lack of support for the west coast pilots.
One question I have (btw, not attacking, just interested), where in the US do you live that puts you 66 hours and 4380 miles from Hobbs / 6350 miles to Montague?

[Tim[_11_]]

<SNIP> TT Wrote:
> I have become very concerned about the overall quality of the US pilots going to the Worlds because we are selecting only from those that have the money and time to drive across the country each year or those that get lucky enough to have contests line up in their half of the country during selection periods.

TT -

I too am very concerned about the quality of the US Teams we are sending overseas. The US Team should be one of the top tier teams and not toward the bottom/middle of the score sheet. It is my opinion that if we continue to use the randomly sited US nationals as US Team selection venues we will continue to get sub-optimum results at WGC's.

While I am not in favor of making the process unnecessarily costly or time consuming if those we send are used to only local, short drive and less costly competition domestically, they are going to be in for quite a shock when they face the cost, complexity, and foreign-ness of going to many a non-North American WGC site.

I thought part of the commitment to making the US team was to make pilots expend the effort to fly in different locales and weather conditions so that they would be better rounded and prepared for the rigors of a WGC. If this effort requires a long-drive, then so be it. I do not like it, but I accept it as part of the "game" and it has made me a better pilot having gone through the rigors of the current system.

As far as East/West Nationals selecting US Teams, I would be very concerned about the qualities of the teams we send if Westerners only race in Western conditions and Easterners only race in Eastern conditions. This does not immediately strike me as sending well rounded pilots to WGC's. I know some top-notch flatland pilots who almost literally s--t bricks at the thought of a mountain site or the eastern ridge sites.

In addition to some of the criteria you are in favor of, I would love to add another one: site the selection nationals in any two year selection cycle at sites that roughly replicate the challenges of the WGC that is being selected for. Or better yet, come up with an appropriately sited "selection contest" that would be held over a two-year cycle. Maybe a selection contest where the top 10 rated pilots in each WGC class would be invited to compete for the team slots in terrain and weather conditions like they will face at the next WGC

For instance, the conditions found at Hobbs for Club Class Nationals in 2015, could hardly be more different from the Lithuanian conditions the US Club Class team will face in 2016. If team selection criteria were being considered, it would make much more sense for the 2015 Club Class Nationals to be sited somewhere East (i.e. Ceasar Creek perhaps?)

> I am glad to see the Pan-American contest being organized for next year, just wish it was being held during the summer months when more could attend..

On this one, you are preaching to the choir in my case, as many contests seem to be increasingly creeping into the school year. For those who are unencumbered by the school year, good for you. For those of us who are so-encumbered, and who are probably among the more youthful demographic many of us say we long for in the sport, it puts a serious crimp in plans to compete.

Maybe we should just put all contests in central Kansas and make everyone (except the Kansans among us) feel the pain of the trip and flying in "foreign" conditions :-)

Thanks all for reading my thoughts,
Tim McAllister EY

[Jim White[_3_]]

Practising in the same conditions as expected in the worlds is very
important. A bit off track but...if you want to win the worlds you also
have to be good at working as a team. This mutual skill takes time to
develop and requires that both pilots going to the Worlds have flown
together a lot, and in top competition.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Sunday, September 21, 2014 9:58:45 PM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
> My point was made.
>
> This thread is somewhat of a rehash of an earlier thread about USA Nationals. Here is that thread. You made similar comments then.
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/rec.aviation.soaring/no$20contests$20for$202$20years$20in$20the$20west/rec.aviation.soaring/xbLG9wqkBjg/XHNlAU8-444J
>
> However, the thread conversation lost some interest when the west coast pilots mentioned no west coast national contests in 2013. This was also discussed a year prior with similar lack of support for the west coast pilots.
>
> One question I have (btw, not attacking, just interested), where in the US do you live that puts you 66 hours and 4380 miles from Hobbs / 6350 miles to Montague?

These distances were both ways. New Hampshire

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Sunday, September 21, 2014 10:10:42 PM UTC-4, Tim wrote:
> <SNIP> TT Wrote:
>
> > I have become very concerned about the overall quality of the US pilots going to the Worlds because we are selecting only from those that have the money and time to drive across the country each year or those that get lucky enough to have contests line up in their half of the country during selection periods.
>
>
>
> TT -
>
>
>
> I too am very concerned about the quality of the US Teams we are sending overseas. The US Team should be one of the top tier teams and not toward the bottom/middle of the score sheet. It is my opinion that if we continue to use the randomly sited US nationals as US Team selection venues we will continue to get sub-optimum results at WGC's.
>
>
>
> While I am not in favor of making the process unnecessarily costly or time consuming if those we send are used to only local, short drive and less costly competition domestically, they are going to be in for quite a shock when they face the cost, complexity, and foreign-ness of going to many a non-North American WGC site.
>
>
>
> I thought part of the commitment to making the US team was to make pilots expend the effort to fly in different locales and weather conditions so that they would be better rounded and prepared for the rigors of a WGC. If this effort requires a long-drive, then so be it. I do not like it, but I accept it as part of the "game" and it has made me a better pilot having gone through the rigors of the current system.
>
>
>
> As far as East/West Nationals selecting US Teams, I would be very concerned about the qualities of the teams we send if Westerners only race in Western conditions and Easterners only race in Eastern conditions. This does not immediately strike me as sending well rounded pilots to WGC's. I know some top-notch flatland pilots who almost literally s--t bricks at the thought of a mountain site or the eastern ridge sites.
>
>
>
> In addition to some of the criteria you are in favor of, I would love to add another one: site the selection nationals in any two year selection cycle at sites that roughly replicate the challenges of the WGC that is being selected for. Or better yet, come up with an appropriately sited "selection contest" that would be held over a two-year cycle. Maybe a selection contest where the top 10 rated pilots in each WGC class would be invited to compete for the team slots in terrain and weather conditions like they will face at the next WGC
>
>
>
> For instance, the conditions found at Hobbs for Club Class Nationals in 2015, could hardly be more different from the Lithuanian conditions the US Club Class team will face in 2016. If team selection criteria were being considered, it would make much more sense for the 2015 Club Class Nationals to be sited somewhere East (i.e. Ceasar Creek perhaps?)
>
>
>
> > I am glad to see the Pan-American contest being organized for next year, just wish it was being held during the summer months when more could attend.
>
>
>
> On this one, you are preaching to the choir in my case, as many contests seem to be increasingly creeping into the school year. For those who are unencumbered by the school year, good for you. For those of us who are so-encumbered, and who are probably among the more youthful demographic many of us say we long for in the sport, it puts a serious crimp in plans to compete..
>
>
>
> Maybe we should just put all contests in central Kansas and make everyone (except the Kansans among us) feel the pain of the trip and flying in "foreign" conditions :-)
>
>
>
> Thanks all for reading my thoughts,
>
> Tim McAllister EY

Tim, There is more to Nationals than just selecting team members. Not everyone wants to go to the worlds.

Andrzej

[John Cochrane[_3_]]

On Monday, September 22, 2014 1:08:31 AM UTC-7, Jim White wrote:
> Practising in the same conditions as expected in the worlds is very
>
> important. A bit off track but...if you want to win the worlds you also
>
> have to be good at working as a team. This mutual skill takes time to
>
> develop and requires that both pilots going to the Worlds have flown
>
> together a lot, and in top competition.

US team is working well on team flying. And all the top pilots have hundreds of hours in all sorts of conditions. Northern Europe isn't that different from Midwestern US.

IMHO, lack of practice at the delicate gaggling tactics required at WGC is the most important thing the US team is missing. That's because we don't fly by world rules. And we don't fly by world rules because we don't want to turn US contests into mass land out affairs where the few who still come ends up buying motors and bringing full time crew as they do in Europe.

And playing the start roulette gaggle game isn't a lot of fun. Much of the competition for contests in the US is with the crowd who wants to fly OLC. Run euro-contests in the US, and I bet a large number abandon contests and just fly OLC. It's bad enough to wait for the tows and start to open, but if you've got to stick to some huge gaggle and fly right through the thunderstorm, it will get old fast. Tough nut to crack.

I hope all who bemoan the lack of US practice under world conditions, and how we should practice under world rules will show up for Sarah's pan-Americans.

John Cochrane

[John Cochrane[_3_]]

Oh, and BTW, everyone complaining about the schedule, the RC is watching. Expect a call to volunteer for the site selection committee, a thankless task if there ever was one!

John Cochrane

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Monday, September 22, 2014 5:51:15 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
> Oh, and BTW, everyone complaining about the schedule, the RC is watching. Expect a call to volunteer for the site selection committee, a thankless task if there ever was one!
>
>
>
> John Cochrane
Waiting for the call...

[Tom Kelley #711]

On Saturday, September 20, 2014 2:51:52 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> Could anyone explain why 2 years in a row we have 18 m Nationals on the west coast? This year Minden and next year Hobbs. As far as I remember Bermuda High was willing to host the 18m Nationals in 2015. This arrangement is totally unfair to East Coast pilots.
>
>
>
> Does that mean 2016 and 2017 are going to be on the East coast?
>
>
>
> I know some of the decision makers read this news group maybe someone is going to comment?
>
>
>
> AK

AK, this is not an attempt to stir the pot. Question? Have you sent the chair, of the BOD, of the SSA and asked him? His email can be found on the SSA website. As you might know, the BOD approves what is forwarded to them, from the site selection committee. My thoughts for a least one question (HINT) to Richard, who flies regularly at Bermuda High, is, "how it ever got on the SSA website to begin with, since it was never approved?"

Over the years, the site selection committee has gone to great lengths to even find a host for some of our Nationals. They even came up with how and what an event should have in order be run with success. Years past, their was no direction even offered a contest manager or hosting organization. Heck, one even flew on her own expense, to present the IGC the paperwork, to bring the WGC to Uvalde.

There also seems to be confusion as how these "zones" work. The most important is, "bids" are needed for the system to work. Again, this years National turnout wasn't stellar. Lowest turnout for the 15 Meter Nationals in their history. Standard Nationals were cancelled, due to lack of entrants. Even the 18's, which were held at one of the worlds premier soaring sites, Minden, had a low turn out. New Castle had a waiting list for many years, today....check the SSA site! The organizers need to at least break even. The hat has been passed amongst the entrants, more than once, to help these folks out.

The zones, as I have been told, were altered for 2015, because of a special request from Elmira. A special celebration concerning our past history is in store. Hint, it's what was quietly told to me.

Sometimes, as we know, all the story isn't told, which leads to false conclusions, which might seem justified at the time. I do hope you find your answer.

Best, Tom Kelley. #711.

[Ron Gleason]

On Monday, 22 September 2014 18:17:59 UTC-6, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
> On Saturday, September 20, 2014 2:51:52 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
>
> > Could anyone explain why 2 years in a row we have 18 m Nationals on the west coast? This year Minden and next year Hobbs. As far as I remember Bermuda High was willing to host the 18m Nationals in 2015. This arrangement is totally unfair to East Coast pilots.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Does that mean 2016 and 2017 are going to be on the East coast?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I know some of the decision makers read this news group maybe someone is going to comment?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > AK
>
>
>
> AK, this is not an attempt to stir the pot. Question? Have you sent the chair, of the BOD, of the SSA and asked him? His email can be found on the SSA website. As you might know, the BOD approves what is forwarded to them, from the site selection committee. My thoughts for a least one question (HINT) to Richard, who flies regularly at Bermuda High, is, "how it ever got on the SSA website to begin with, since it was never approved?"
>
>
>
> Over the years, the site selection committee has gone to great lengths to even find a host for some of our Nationals. They even came up with how and what an event should have in order be run with success. Years past, their was no direction even offered a contest manager or hosting organization. Heck, one even flew on her own expense, to present the IGC the paperwork, to bring the WGC to Uvalde.
>
>
>
> There also seems to be confusion as how these "zones" work. The most important is, "bids" are needed for the system to work. Again, this years National turnout wasn't stellar. Lowest turnout for the 15 Meter Nationals in their history. Standard Nationals were cancelled, due to lack of entrants. Even the 18's, which were held at one of the worlds premier soaring sites, Minden, had a low turn out. New Castle had a waiting list for many years, today...check the SSA site! The organizers need to at least break even. The hat has been passed amongst the entrants, more than once, to help these folks out.
>
>
>
> The zones, as I have been told, were altered for 2015, because of a special request from Elmira. A special celebration concerning our past history is in store. Hint, it's what was quietly told to me.
>
>
>
> Sometimes, as we know, all the story isn't told, which leads to false conclusions, which might seem justified at the time. I do hope you find your answer.
>
>
>
> Best, Tom Kelley. #711.

Tom, thanks for the history lesson. Can you point me to where 'zones' are defined? you allude to the fact that may have been altered for 2015 for some definition must exist.

I do try to understand how we got to where we are and I am trying to keep contests going in the west. Hoping to continue to have contests in Utah in 2015 and are preparing for the nationals in 2016.

Ron Gleason

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Monday, September 22, 2014 8:17:59 PM UTC-4, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
> On Saturday, September 20, 2014 2:51:52 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
>
> > Could anyone explain why 2 years in a row we have 18 m Nationals on the west coast? This year Minden and next year Hobbs. As far as I remember Bermuda High was willing to host the 18m Nationals in 2015. This arrangement is totally unfair to East Coast pilots.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Does that mean 2016 and 2017 are going to be on the East coast?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I know some of the decision makers read this news group maybe someone is going to comment?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > AK
>
>
>
> AK, this is not an attempt to stir the pot. Question? Have you sent the chair, of the BOD, of the SSA and asked him? His email can be found on the SSA website. As you might know, the BOD approves what is forwarded to them, from the site selection committee. My thoughts for a least one question (HINT) to Richard, who flies regularly at Bermuda High, is, "how it ever got on the SSA website to begin with, since it was never approved?"
>
>
>
> Over the years, the site selection committee has gone to great lengths to even find a host for some of our Nationals. They even came up with how and what an event should have in order be run with success. Years past, their was no direction even offered a contest manager or hosting organization. Heck, one even flew on her own expense, to present the IGC the paperwork, to bring the WGC to Uvalde.
>
>
>
> There also seems to be confusion as how these "zones" work. The most important is, "bids" are needed for the system to work. Again, this years National turnout wasn't stellar. Lowest turnout for the 15 Meter Nationals in their history. Standard Nationals were cancelled, due to lack of entrants. Even the 18's, which were held at one of the worlds premier soaring sites, Minden, had a low turn out. New Castle had a waiting list for many years, today...check the SSA site! The organizers need to at least break even. The hat has been passed amongst the entrants, more than once, to help these folks out.
>
>
>
> The zones, as I have been told, were altered for 2015, because of a special request from Elmira. A special celebration concerning our past history is in store. Hint, it's what was quietly told to me.
>
>
>
> Sometimes, as we know, all the story isn't told, which leads to false conclusions, which might seem justified at the time. I do hope you find your answer.
>
>
>
> Best, Tom Kelley. #711.

Tom, very thoughtful response. What I am looking for is transparency. If decisions are made deviating from what normally happens it would be nice to have reasons communicated to us. Everyone would understand if there is a higher cause. The problem is once you make one exception then other exceptions need to follow due to the fact you don't want to have all Nationals concentrated on one side of the country. Anyway, I should not be looking for this kind of information these things should be documented either as minutes on SSA website or some other form. I really don't like behind closed doors business without any report out.

I hope this clarifies things a bit. I used to be on a board of directors in one of the clubs I was a member of. Meeting minutes were always produced and easily accessible. Decisions and reasons were always communicated. It would be nice if we followed this path at the SSA level.

Andrzej

[Tim[_11_]]

Andrzej:

I guess a point lost in my ramblings was that maybe we should not be choosing the world team at our nationals but from another more tailored selection contest.

This would get rid of those hard-core competitors and open up the field to those who just want to race, but not too competitively.

It sure seems like Nationals are becoming painted as either a contest "just for those who want to fly at the WGC", or a contest "for anyone that wants to show up to have some fun flying"

I myself see a Nationals as a place to push the limit and compete against the best of my peers to the limit of my abilities. But maybe I should just give in to the "dumbing down" of contests and accept "nationals" that reward everyone just for showing up.

EY



On Monday, September 22, 2014 2:56:23 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> On Sunday, September 21, 2014 10:10:42 PM UTC-4, Tim wrote:
>
> > <SNIP> TT Wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > I have become very concerned about the overall quality of the US pilots going to the Worlds because we are selecting only from those that have the money and time to drive across the country each year or those that get lucky enough to have contests line up in their half of the country during selection periods.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > TT -
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I too am very concerned about the quality of the US Teams we are sending overseas. The US Team should be one of the top tier teams and not toward the bottom/middle of the score sheet. It is my opinion that if we continue to use the randomly sited US nationals as US Team selection venues we will continue to get sub-optimum results at WGC's.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > While I am not in favor of making the process unnecessarily costly or time consuming if those we send are used to only local, short drive and less costly competition domestically, they are going to be in for quite a shock when they face the cost, complexity, and foreign-ness of going to many a non-North American WGC site.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I thought part of the commitment to making the US team was to make pilots expend the effort to fly in different locales and weather conditions so that they would be better rounded and prepared for the rigors of a WGC. If this effort requires a long-drive, then so be it. I do not like it, but I accept it as part of the "game" and it has made me a better pilot having gone through the rigors of the current system.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > As far as East/West Nationals selecting US Teams, I would be very concerned about the qualities of the teams we send if Westerners only race in Western conditions and Easterners only race in Eastern conditions. This does not immediately strike me as sending well rounded pilots to WGC's. I know some top-notch flatland pilots who almost literally s--t bricks at the thought of a mountain site or the eastern ridge sites.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > In addition to some of the criteria you are in favor of, I would love to add another one: site the selection nationals in any two year selection cycle at sites that roughly replicate the challenges of the WGC that is being selected for. Or better yet, come up with an appropriately sited "selection contest" that would be held over a two-year cycle. Maybe a selection contest where the top 10 rated pilots in each WGC class would be invited to compete for the team slots in terrain and weather conditions like they will face at the next WGC
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > For instance, the conditions found at Hobbs for Club Class Nationals in 2015, could hardly be more different from the Lithuanian conditions the US Club Class team will face in 2016. If team selection criteria were being considered, it would make much more sense for the 2015 Club Class Nationals to be sited somewhere East (i.e. Ceasar Creek perhaps?)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > I am glad to see the Pan-American contest being organized for next year, just wish it was being held during the summer months when more could attend.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On this one, you are preaching to the choir in my case, as many contests seem to be increasingly creeping into the school year. For those who are unencumbered by the school year, good for you. For those of us who are so-encumbered, and who are probably among the more youthful demographic many of us say we long for in the sport, it puts a serious crimp in plans to compete.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Maybe we should just put all contests in central Kansas and make everyone (except the Kansans among us) feel the pain of the trip and flying in "foreign" conditions :-)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Thanks all for reading my thoughts,
>
> >
>
> > Tim McAllister EY
>
>
>
> Tim, There is more to Nationals than just selecting team members. Not everyone wants to go to the worlds.
>
>
>
> Andrzej

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Monday, September 22, 2014 9:00:15 PM UTC-4, Tim wrote:
> Andrzej:
>
>
>
> I guess a point lost in my ramblings was that maybe we should not be choosing the world team at our nationals but from another more tailored selection contest.
>
>
>
> This would get rid of those hard-core competitors and open up the field to those who just want to race, but not too competitively.
>
>
>
> It sure seems like Nationals are becoming painted as either a contest "just for those who want to fly at the WGC", or a contest "for anyone that wants to show up to have some fun flying"
>
>
>
> I myself see a Nationals as a place to push the limit and compete against the best of my peers to the limit of my abilities. But maybe I should just give in to the "dumbing down" of contests and accept "nationals" that reward everyone just for showing up.
>
>
>
> EY
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, September 22, 2014 2:56:23 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, September 21, 2014 10:10:42 PM UTC-4, Tim wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > <SNIP> TT Wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > I have become very concerned about the overall quality of the US pilots going to the Worlds because we are selecting only from those that have the money and time to drive across the country each year or those that get lucky enough to have contests line up in their half of the country during selection periods.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > TT -
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I too am very concerned about the quality of the US Teams we are sending overseas. The US Team should be one of the top tier teams and not toward the bottom/middle of the score sheet. It is my opinion that if we continue to use the randomly sited US nationals as US Team selection venues we will continue to get sub-optimum results at WGC's.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > While I am not in favor of making the process unnecessarily costly or time consuming if those we send are used to only local, short drive and less costly competition domestically, they are going to be in for quite a shock when they face the cost, complexity, and foreign-ness of going to many a non-North American WGC site.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I thought part of the commitment to making the US team was to make pilots expend the effort to fly in different locales and weather conditions so that they would be better rounded and prepared for the rigors of a WGC. If this effort requires a long-drive, then so be it. I do not like it, but I accept it as part of the "game" and it has made me a better pilot having gone through the rigors of the current system.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > As far as East/West Nationals selecting US Teams, I would be very concerned about the qualities of the teams we send if Westerners only race in Western conditions and Easterners only race in Eastern conditions. This does not immediately strike me as sending well rounded pilots to WGC's. I know some top-notch flatland pilots who almost literally s--t bricks at the thought of a mountain site or the eastern ridge sites.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > In addition to some of the criteria you are in favor of, I would love to add another one: site the selection nationals in any two year selection cycle at sites that roughly replicate the challenges of the WGC that is being selected for. Or better yet, come up with an appropriately sited "selection contest" that would be held over a two-year cycle. Maybe a selection contest where the top 10 rated pilots in each WGC class would be invited to compete for the team slots in terrain and weather conditions like they will face at the next WGC
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > For instance, the conditions found at Hobbs for Club Class Nationals in 2015, could hardly be more different from the Lithuanian conditions the US Club Class team will face in 2016. If team selection criteria were being considered, it would make much more sense for the 2015 Club Class Nationals to be sited somewhere East (i.e. Ceasar Creek perhaps?)
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > I am glad to see the Pan-American contest being organized for next year, just wish it was being held during the summer months when more could attend.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > On this one, you are preaching to the choir in my case, as many contests seem to be increasingly creeping into the school year. For those who are unencumbered by the school year, good for you. For those of us who are so-encumbered, and who are probably among the more youthful demographic many of us say we long for in the sport, it puts a serious crimp in plans to compete.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Maybe we should just put all contests in central Kansas and make everyone (except the Kansans among us) feel the pain of the trip and flying in "foreign" conditions :-)
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Thanks all for reading my thoughts,
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Tim McAllister EY
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Tim, There is more to Nationals than just selecting team members. Not everyone wants to go to the worlds.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Andrzej

Tim, I am with you on pushing hard. My point was that we should not locate Nationals just to match conditions at the next worlds. That is all. I think Nationals should be challenging with long days, but that is a bit of topic..

[Tom Kelley #711]

On Monday, September 22, 2014 6:35:28 PM UTC-6, Ron Gleason wrote:
> On Monday, 22 September 2014 18:17:59 UTC-6, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, September 20, 2014 2:51:52 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > Could anyone explain why 2 years in a row we have 18 m Nationals on the west coast? This year Minden and next year Hobbs. As far as I remember Bermuda High was willing to host the 18m Nationals in 2015. This arrangement is totally unfair to East Coast pilots.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Does that mean 2016 and 2017 are going to be on the East coast?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I know some of the decision makers read this news group maybe someone is going to comment?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > AK
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > AK, this is not an attempt to stir the pot. Question? Have you sent the chair, of the BOD, of the SSA and asked him? His email can be found on the SSA website. As you might know, the BOD approves what is forwarded to them, from the site selection committee. My thoughts for a least one question (HINT) to Richard, who flies regularly at Bermuda High, is, "how it ever got on the SSA website to begin with, since it was never approved?"
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Over the years, the site selection committee has gone to great lengths to even find a host for some of our Nationals. They even came up with how and what an event should have in order be run with success. Years past, their was no direction even offered a contest manager or hosting organization. Heck, one even flew on her own expense, to present the IGC the paperwork, to bring the WGC to Uvalde.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > There also seems to be confusion as how these "zones" work. The most important is, "bids" are needed for the system to work. Again, this years National turnout wasn't stellar. Lowest turnout for the 15 Meter Nationals in their history. Standard Nationals were cancelled, due to lack of entrants. Even the 18's, which were held at one of the worlds premier soaring sites, Minden, had a low turn out. New Castle had a waiting list for many years, today...check the SSA site! The organizers need to at least break even. The hat has been passed amongst the entrants, more than once, to help these folks out.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The zones, as I have been told, were altered for 2015, because of a special request from Elmira. A special celebration concerning our past history is in store. Hint, it's what was quietly told to me.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Sometimes, as we know, all the story isn't told, which leads to false conclusions, which might seem justified at the time. I do hope you find your answer.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Best, Tom Kelley. #711.
>
>
>
> Tom, thanks for the history lesson. Can you point me to where 'zones' are defined? you allude to the fact that may have been altered for 2015 for some definition must exist.
>
>
>
> I do try to understand how we got to where we are and I am trying to keep contests going in the west. Hoping to continue to have contests in Utah in 2015 and are preparing for the nationals in 2016.
>
>
>
> Ron Gleason

Zones are not defined, as our Nationals need to be held somewhere. Sometimes its hard to find a "host". So the zone (west...mid...east) is enlarged if and when a bidder steps in. The site selection committee does try to follow the rotation and makes a recommendation to the BOD which then makes the final decision.
As I was told, their were no bids received for the 15's within their "zone".. Elmira stepped in and asked...by what was shared with me....so thats how it went where its at. I would think the rotation will be again be followed....if "hosts" within these so called loosely defined "zones" turn in bids.

Mixing of the classes are for one main reason, for the "host" to break even.. Many know what you, Bruno and your folks are doing for the sport and its not going unnoticed.

Best, Tom.

[XC]

> The zones, as I have been told, were altered for 2015, because of a special request from Elmira. A special celebration concerning our past history is in store. Hint, it's what was quietly told to me.
>
>
As the guy who submitted the application for the 15m/Std. class nationals at Harris Hill, I just want to clarify that there was no special request. I just wanted to host a contest at a great spot that hasn't host an FAI class nationals in a while. No special treatment was extended as far as I know - and I would know. The app was submitted and approved.

There were some other comments about having more contests during the summer when our younger participants can attend with families. I agree. The dates of the Harris Hill contest were selected for this reason and so that our junior members would be able to attend and help with line. Having a dozen or more young pilots help with line adds a lot of good energy to a comp and is important to the future of our sport.

As for the weather in Elmira, it is exactly like many parts of continental Europe.

Harris Hill is a great place to fly with excellent facilities. I hope many of you can join us next summer and I would like to encourage all pilots to bring a young person from their club as crew.

Sean Murphy
XC

[Tom Kelley #711]

On Thursday, October 2, 2014 6:45:17 AM UTC-6, XC wrote:
> > The zones, as I have been told, were altered for 2015, because of a special request from Elmira. A special celebration concerning our past history is in store. Hint, it's what was quietly told to me.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> As the guy who submitted the application for the 15m/Std. class nationals at Harris Hill, I just want to clarify that there was no special request. I just wanted to host a contest at a great spot that hasn't host an FAI class nationals in a while. No special treatment was extended as far as I know - and I would know. The app was submitted and approved.
>
>
>
> There were some other comments about having more contests during the summer when our younger participants can attend with families. I agree. The dates of the Harris Hill contest were selected for this reason and so that our junior members would be able to attend and help with line. Having a dozen or more young pilots help with line adds a lot of good energy to a comp and is important to the future of our sport.
>
>
>
> As for the weather in Elmira, it is exactly like many parts of continental Europe.
>
>
>
> Harris Hill is a great place to fly with excellent facilities. I hope many of you can join us next summer and I would like to encourage all pilots to bring a young person from their club as crew.
>
>
>
> Sean Murphy
>
> XC

Sean, thank you, that's good to hear.

Yet, over 3 years ago, the site selection committee chair, Linda, received a call, from another person, which asked if the 15's and Standards could be held together during 2015 at Harris Hill (does 2015 mark 75 years of soaring at Harris Hill? I really have no idea). During the conversation (probably now a communication error), a celebration of 75 years of soaring at Harris Hill might also occur during the Nationals event. Since it fell into the rotation, no problems were seen, also no other bids were received at that time. It ALL sounded great!!

As was previously stated in another thread, these folks are helping organize contests being held, not just to **** people off.

Best. Tom.

[Tom Kelley #711]

On Thursday, October 2, 2014 6:45:17 AM UTC-6, XC wrote:
> > The zones, as I have been told, were altered for 2015, because of a special request from Elmira. A special celebration concerning our past history is in store. Hint, it's what was quietly told to me.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> As the guy who submitted the application for the 15m/Std. class nationals at Harris Hill, I just want to clarify that there was no special request. I just wanted to host a contest at a great spot that hasn't host an FAI class nationals in a while. No special treatment was extended as far as I know - and I would know. The app was submitted and approved.
>
>
>
> There were some other comments about having more contests during the summer when our younger participants can attend with families. I agree. The dates of the Harris Hill contest were selected for this reason and so that our junior members would be able to attend and help with line. Having a dozen or more young pilots help with line adds a lot of good energy to a comp and is important to the future of our sport.
>
>
>
> As for the weather in Elmira, it is exactly like many parts of continental Europe.
>
>
>
> Harris Hill is a great place to fly with excellent facilities. I hope many of you can join us next summer and I would like to encourage all pilots to bring a young person from their club as crew.
>
>
>
> Sean Murphy
>
> XC

Thanks Sean.
Over 3 years ago, someone called Linda and asked if the 15's and Standards could be combined and held at Harris Hill. Since it was in the 15's rotation and Standards needed to be co hosted, no problems were seen for 2015.

My using the word "altered" could of been misleading, I meant usually the 15's and Standards are held separately. Not sure when Harris Hill started, sometime back in the 30's I believe, but during their conversation, a communication error might have occurred as it was thought a celebration might be occurring marking over 75 years of National contests being held at Harris Hill.

Whats been stated in another thread is true. These folks are trying to help out and are not trying to "**** anyone off".

Best, Tom.