Recognizing and reacting to tow plane engine failure

[son_of_flubber]

It would be useful to hear your stories of how incidents of tow plane engine failure turned out for you. It seems that there is very little time to recognize, react, and recover. What are classic mistakes to make in this scenario?

Would it be useful to practice 'release and land to the side of the tow plane path' (and have the tow plane fly a normal departure of course)? Any other recommended training exercises?

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:41:57 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> It would be useful to hear your stories of how incidents of tow plane engine failure turned out for you. It seems that there is very little time to recognize, react, and recover. What are classic mistakes to make in this scenario?
>
> Would it be useful to practice 'release and land to the side of the tow plane path' (and have the tow plane fly a normal departure of course)? Any other recommended training exercises?

The classic problem is one of not having a plan. All portions of the critical part of the launch need to have a plan of what to do so it is "only" a matter of execution.
There is almost no time for problem solving.
I have had 3 engine failures as tow pilot. 2 were complete power loss. 2 pilots got it right and released- one started reporting smoke from the towplane instead of getting off.
UH

[BobW]

On 10/23/2014 8:41 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> It would be useful to hear your stories of how incidents of tow plane
> engine failure turned out for you. It seems that there is very little time
> to recognize, react, and recover. What are classic mistakes to make in
> this scenario?
>
> Would it be useful to practice 'release and land to the side of the tow
> plane path' (and have the tow plane fly a normal departure of course)? Any
> other recommended training exercises?
>

I've experienced 2 (that spring to mind) incidents of unplanned loss of tuggie
power while on tow, both above pattern altitude. Neither resulted in a radio
call - and no waveoff - that I remember. The gradual one was trickier to
detect from my end of the rope, in that the symptoms developed "non-digitally"
and could easily have been due to towpilot inattention or distraction or
"something" unrelated to a problematic engine issue. Other than the time
constants involved, both were detectable (in no particular order) by reduction
in climb rate, some loss of airspeed, and "something's different" flags
raising in my noodle. Neither resulted in "an obvious rope bow" or
deceleration before I released in both cases once it was seemed (but wasn't
"crystal-clearly evident") to me it wasn't your basic tuggie inattention
situation.

Talked with both after the flights. One was (gasp) out of fuel (slosh-related
unporting as I recall) and the other something related to the throttle
(details forgotten in time) that didn't put the tug down for the day. Both
tuggies thanked me for releasing.

In thinking more about the possibility of a gradual loss of engine power (e.g.
throttle creep), I concluded it could perhaps be one of the trickier things
for Joe Glider Pilot to detect should it happen (say) before or immediately
after becoming airborne. Never happened to me, but there's good reasons for
mentally preparing for how to recognize and deal with "the abbie-normal on-tow
possibilities."

Bob W.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 8:41:57 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> It would be useful to hear your stories of how incidents of tow plane engine failure turned out for you. It seems that there is very little time to recognize, react, and recover. What are classic mistakes to make in this scenario?
>
> Would it be useful to practice 'release and land to side of the tow plane path (and have the tow plane fly a normal departure of course)? Any other recommended training exercises?

A simple answer. Save yourself first. I have been on both ends, but not at once. If YOU have a problem don't expect the other guy to fix it. Don't kill the other guy. If he has a problem, you have no way to fix it. So, take the best way out for you. Typically this put into go left or go right, but I would suggest that this makes little sense. It depends entirely on where you are and what's in the way. Rope failure - not the towplane's problem. Keep flying the towplane. Towplane failure - not glider's problem - let towplane fix it by staying out of his way.

[John Firth[_4_]]

So there are tuggles (new word) who are insensitive
to change in engine note and do not monitor the tach!
No surprise, unfortunately. Importnt to check the RPM
at the start with full throttle, and thereafter.
In the PIK 20E I do not need to read the tach for
full power; the noise tells me!
JMF

At 15:14 23 October 2014, BobW wrote:
>On 10/23/2014 8:41 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> It would be useful to hear your stories of how incidents of tow plane
>> engine failure turned out for you. It seems that there is very little
>time
>> to recognize, react, and recover. What are classic mistakes to make in
>> this scenario?
>>
>> Would it be useful to practice 'release and land to the side of the tow
>> plane path' (and have the tow plane fly a normal departure of course)?
>Any
>> other recommended training exercises?
>>
>
>I've experienced 2 (that spring to mind) incidents of unplanned loss of
>tuggie
>power while on tow, both above pattern altitude. Neither resulted in a
>radio
>call - and no waveoff - that I remember. The gradual one was trickier to
>detect from my end of the rope, in that the symptoms developed
>"non-digitally"
>and could easily have been due to towpilot inattention or distraction or
>"something" unrelated to a problematic engine issue. Other than the time
>constants involved, both were detectable (in no particular order) by
>reduction
>in climb rate, some loss of airspeed, and "something's different" flags
>raising in my noodle. Neither resulted in "an obvious rope bow" or
>deceleration before I released in both cases once it was seemed (but
wasn't
>
>"crystal-clearly evident") to me it wasn't your basic tuggie inattention
>situation.
>
>Talked with both after the flights. One was (gasp) out of fuel
>(slosh-related
>unporting as I recall) and the other something related to the throttle
>(details forgotten in time) that didn't put the tug down for the day. Both

>tuggies thanked me for releasing.
>
>In thinking more about the possibility of a gradual loss of engine power
>(e.g.
>throttle creep), I concluded it could perhaps be one of the trickier
things
>
>for Joe Glider Pilot to detect should it happen (say) before or
immediately
>
>after becoming airborne. Never happened to me, but there's good reasons
for
>
>mentally preparing for how to recognize and deal with "the abbie-normal
>on-tow
>possibilities."
>
>Bob W.
>

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 11:30:05 AM UTC-4, firsys wrote:
> So there are tuggles (new word) who are insensitive
> to change in engine note and do not monitor the tach!
> No surprise, unfortunately.

The other possibility is that we (mostly) have tow pilots with enough grit that they don't wave off or release at the first hiccup. This has been my experience.

T8

[Alexander Georgas[_2_]]

At the risk of thread drift, I would like to make a related point:

When the climb fails to materialize as you expect, take a peek at your
wing to see if your airbrakes are open.

Added that one to my list after an SMLG adventure by "a person I know"...


On 23/10/2014 17:41, son_of_flubber wrote:
> It would be useful to hear your stories of how incidents of tow plane engine failure turned out for you. It seems that there is very little time to recognize, react, and recover. What are classic mistakes to make in this scenario?
>
> Would it be useful to practice 'release and land to the side of the tow plane path' (and have the tow plane fly a normal departure of course)? Any other recommended training exercises?
>

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:41:57 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> It would be useful to hear your stories of how incidents of tow plane engine failure turned out for you. It seems that there is very little time to recognize, react, and recover. What are classic mistakes to make in this scenario?
>
> Would it be useful to practice 'release and land to the side of the tow plane path' (and have the tow plane fly a normal departure of course)? Any other recommended training exercises?

Your training should have covered these eventualities before your checkride..

As a glider pilot, I've had a towplane run out of fuel (at top of tow - we both released at the same time, rope never recovered), towplanes abort takeoff due to canopy door slamming open on ground (Pawnee), and at least one PTT (not towplane related). All were interesting but well within what was covered by my training.

From the towplane perspective, I've briefed and given sumulated emergencies to student glider pilots - such as briefing the glider pilot to slowly extend his divebrakes (at a safe altitude), note the difference in climb, then watch for my rudder waggle signal to close them. I've also done practice engine failure on tow (again, prebriefed) by slowly retarding the throttle at the top of the tow, and giving the waveoff wing rock to the glider, so the glider experiences the sensation of the tow losing power, and sees the "release now" signal.

If you are properly trained, have a plan, and pay attention, there is always plenty of time to take the correct action. If you are not sure you are ready, I suggest some practice scenarios with a cooperative tow pilot and instructor.

Kirk
66

[Bill D]

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:39:53 AM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> On Thursday, October 23, 2014 11:30:05 AM UTC-4, firsys wrote:
> > So there are tuggles (new word) who are insensitive
> > to change in engine note and do not monitor the tach!
> > No surprise, unfortunately.
>
> The other possibility is that we (mostly) have tow pilots with enough grit that they don't wave off or release at the first hiccup. This has been my experience.
>
> T8

That "grit" is often an inability to make a timely decision.

A true, recent incident illustrates the point:

Tug (C-182) loaded to gross with survival gear, full fuel and two aboard attempts to tow a heavy glider with two aboard from a high density altitude airport with no off-field landing options. The takeoff runway is 7,700 feet long but uphill and downwind.

The tow barely misses the REIL lights on the departure end and then begins a descent down a dry wash toward a river. No wing wave is given and the glider does not release. Finally, with no option left except landing in swift, white water, the glider pilot sees a patch of unimproved desert slightly above him and releases. He uses his airspeed to gain just enough height to make a safe landing atop a small mesa ~ 500 feet below runway elevation. The tug takes several minutes to gain enough height to land back on the runway.

So, what went wrong? The tug had a problem developing full power. Probably a muffler baffle had come adrift partially blocking the exhaust - something hard to pick up on a run up. All have been tight lipped about the postmortem.

The decision to make the takeoff in the first place is questionable. The tug had not been test flown that day which, had that been done, would have likely revealed the problem. In any event a C-182 should not have full tanks for towing so the 'test flight' should have lasted long enough to burn off excess fuel.

The tug pilot should have released the rope while the glider still had room to stop on the runway when it became clear the takeoff roll was WAY too long. The glider pilot should have released while still rolling for the same reason. Once past the departure end, neither pilot had any real options until the patch of desert atop the mesa became available.

I always suggest selecting a "GO - NO GO" point on the runway where the glider can still release and stop if the takeoff is not going well. Had the glider pilot done this, he would have stopped at the downwind end of the runway so successive tows could have been downhill and into the wind. The tug pilot would have probably detected the lack of power and retired the tug until the problem was corrected.

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:38:09 PM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:
> On Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:39:53 AM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> > On Thursday, October 23, 2014 11:30:05 AM UTC-4, firsys wrote:
> > > So there are tuggles (new word) who are insensitive
> > > to change in engine note and do not monitor the tach!
> > > No surprise, unfortunately.
> >
> > The other possibility is that we (mostly) have tow pilots with enough grit that they don't wave off or release at the first hiccup. This has been my experience.
> >
> > T8
>
> That "grit" is often an inability to make a timely decision.

Happily, that isn't *my* 28 years of experience. Yours may vary.


> A true, recent incident illustrates the point:

> Tug (C-182) loaded to gross with survival gear, full fuel and two aboard attempts to tow a heavy glider with two aboard from a high density altitude airport with no off-field landing options. The takeoff runway is 7,700 feet long but uphill and downwind.

It illustrates something, alright, but it isn't relevant here.

T8

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 09:14:09 -0600, BobW wrote:

> In thinking more about the possibility of a gradual loss of engine power
> (e.g.
> throttle creep), I concluded it could perhaps be one of the trickier
> things for Joe Glider Pilot to detect should it happen (say) before or
> immediately after becoming airborne. Never happened to me, but there's
> good reasons for mentally preparing for how to recognize and deal with
> "the abbie-normal on-tow possibilities."
>
Slightly OTT, but: At my club field a favourite winch-driver sport, when
asked by an instructor to "simulate a power fade at 500 ft" has been to
slowly reduce power until the glider is being dragged up the field at a
constant height and waiting to see how long it takes for the student to
realise what's going on and release.

Just like Bob describes when on tow, initially its quite hard to
distinguish a genuine winch power fade from a winch driver driver failing
to compensate for a drop in wind speed on a gusty day - about the only
clear distinction is the length of time that the situation persists
without correction.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Bruce Hoult[_2_]]

On 2014-10-23 16:08:39 +0000, kirk.stant said:

> On Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:41:57 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> It would be useful to hear your stories of how incidents of tow plane
>> engine failure turned out for you. It seems that there is very little
>> time to recognize, react, and recover. What are classic mistakes to
>> make in this scenario?
>>
>> Would it be useful to practice 'release and land to the side of the tow
>> plane path' (and have the tow plane fly a normal departure of course)?
>> Any other recommended training exercises?
>
> Your training should have covered these eventualities before your checkride.
>
> As a glider pilot, I've had a towplane run out of fuel (at top of tow -
> we both released at the same time, rope never recovered), towplanes
> abort takeoff due to canopy door slamming open on ground (Pawnee), and
> at least one PTT (not towplane related). All were interesting but well
> within what was covered by my training.
> From the towplane perspective, I've briefed and given sumulated
> emergencies to student glider pilots - such as briefing the glider
> pilot to slowly extend his divebrakes (at a safe altitude), note the
> difference in climb, then watch for my rudder waggle signal to close
> them. I've also done practice engine failure on tow (again,
> prebriefed) by slowly retarding the throttle at the top of the tow, and
> giving the waveoff wing rock to the glider, so the glider experiences
> the sensation of the tow losing power, and sees the "release now"
> signal.
>
> If you are properly trained, have a plan, and pay attention, there is
> always plenty of time to take the correct action. If you are not sure
> you are ready, I suggest some practice scenarios with a cooperative tow
> pilot and instructor.

My funnest one: it's often quite humid here, and the canopy will fog up
as soon as you close it, and unfog once you start moving on the takeoff
roll. Until one day it didn't. When I got to liftoff speed and still
couldn't see anything past the tail of the tug I released and rolled to
a stop. Got out and found the front seat control for the vent in the
nose was closed. Opened it, pushed back to the takeoff point (with the
trial flighter still buckled in), and tried again. This time the canopy
cleared as expected.

So that's another item I now check every time I buckle a trial-flight
person in, along with turning on the master switch, turning down the
vario, and checking the transponder setting.

[Mike the Strike]

My first glider instruction flights were in 1967 (off a winch) but most of my flying since then has been aero-tow.

In many hundreds of aero-tows (I haven't checked my logbook for the actual number), I have had two complete tug failures and one partial loss of power.. The first was obvious as the tug prop stopped rotating instantaneously from a dropped valve just as I became airborne. I was unable to stop before the tug (heavy 19 m ballasted glider)and landed safely alongside it. The second was virtually the same, although power loss was more gradual. the third was a non-event - I just released.

I have never experienced a rope break while airborne, but have had a couple of hairy landings when give a simulated rope break at or below 200-feet.

I still wonder why we put so many folks at risk with this exercise?

Mike

[WAVEGURU]

Simulated rope breaks at 200ft is a lot like practicing bleeding...

Boggs

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:41:57 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> It would be useful to hear your stories of how incidents of tow plane engine failure turned out for you. It seems that there is very little time to recognize, react, and recover. What are classic mistakes to make in this scenario?
>
> Would it be useful to practice 'release and land to the side of the tow plane path' (and have the tow plane fly a normal departure of course)? Any other recommended training exercises?

In a little over 2,000 launches, I've had 2 actual towplane failures. In both cases, the failure was gradual, with no obvious puff of smoke or stopped prop. The problem signs were a gradual decrease in climb rate until we were barely climbing at all. The obvious difference between just flying through heavy sink (which is not uncommon at a mountain or ridge site) is the change in attitude of the towplane and the obvious need to pitch down to stay behind the now struggling towplane. The most memorable of these was behind an L-19 that was slowly gobbling up a valve during a tow on a bodacious ridge day. My good friend was towing, and he nursed us around the airfield in a close in pattern climbing at barely 100fpm, allowing a safe landing at any point. When he got me to 1,000 feet AGL, he waved me off and brought the sick L-19 in.

FWIW... we practiced exactly this scenario in our instruction program at my old club. We would brief the mission with the towpilot, who would slowly back off the power starting at around 600 feet. I did this with at least a half-dozen students, and with most of them it would go something like this: Student:"Hey, what's the towpilot doing"? Me: "What do you mean"? Student: "We've stopped climbing" Me: "So, what are we going to do about it?" Student: "But he didn't wave me off..." It was pretty eye-opening to think that students might follow the towplane down if the towpilot was too busy to wave him/her off. The post-flight debriefs were usually quite enlightening.

P3

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 10/23/2014 9:18 AM, wrote:
> On Thursday, October 23, 2014 8:41:57 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> It would be useful to hear your stories of how incidents of tow plane
>> engine failure turned out for you. It seems that there is very little
>> time to recognize, react, and recover. What are classic mistakes to make
>> in this scenario?
>>
>> Would it be useful to practice 'release and land to side of the tow plane
>> path (and have the tow plane fly a normal departure of course)? Any
>> other recommended training exercises?
>
> A simple answer. Save yourself first. I have been on both ends, but not at
> once. If YOU have a problem don't expect the other guy to fix it. Don't
> kill the other guy. If he has a problem, you have no way to fix it. So,
> take the best way out for you. Typically this put into go left or go right,
> but I would suggest that this makes little sense. It depends entirely on
> where you are and what's in the way. Rope failure - not the towplane's
> problem. Keep flying the towplane. Towplane failure - not glider's problem
> - let towplane fix it by staying out of his way.
>

I'll second this succinct feedback. Flying's real safe so long as you don't
hit nuthin'...'cept the earth in a controlled manner!

Bob W.

[bumper[_4_]]

On Thursday, October 23, 2014 8:30:05 AM UTC-7, firsys wrote:
> So there are tuggles (new word) who are insensitive
> to change in engine note and do not monitor the tach!
> No surprise, unfortunately.
> JMF

The tuggies I know, including myself, haven't yet lost *all* their self preservation instinct and are keenly attuned to the performance and nuances of "their" machine. I take off with left hand holding throttle forward, ready to go for the release. But in truth, most of my attention during the take off roll is the take off roll, with brief scan of engine instruments to affirm all is well after throttle advance, rotation speed approaching where and as it should, and a few quick glances at the mirror to be sure the glider is tracking okay. I worry less about the engine than about the glider behind me. If Mr. Motor is going to try and kill you, it usually gives warning, albeit brief. If the glider tries to do you in, my understanding is there can be almost no time to recognize and react.

Sometimes Minden conditions get sporty, often with wave rotor it can take most of the tuggies attention just flying the plane. My biggest concern remains a glider kiting, especially with a CG hook. Happened once at maybe 30 feet. Mistook it for turbulence and reacted accordingly with stick. Fortunately for me the glider pilot recovered quickly, regaining position before I ran out of elevator or had a tail stall - - apologized to me afterwards. The line guy said, "He went way up, didn't you see that?!" Nope, clueless I guess.

bumper
MKIV & QV

When I'm flying at the front of the rope, I'm concerned for both me and the glider. I don't know a tuggie who isn't.

[John Carlyle]

I've experienced simulated power failures and simulated rope breaks just after I'm flying but the tow plane isn't.

The rope breaks were a piece of cake, as the bang alerts you that something just went wrong and you instantly transition to landing mode.

The simulated tow plane power failure was not a piece of cake. It took a few seconds to figure out that something was wrong, find the release and transition to landing mode.

I think simulated tow plane power failure is definitely something you should see at least once (with an instructor in the back seat to keep you safe, of course)! You'll never forget it, and recognition will come faster if you ever have to deal with it in real life.

-John, Q3

[Dan Marotta]

I've never had a tug fail while in my glider but I've had two engine
failures with gliders behind me and one after the glider released.

My position on my own engine failure is this: If I have the time, I'll
get you to a safe position and wave you off. Failing that, and I have
the time, I'll wave you off. Failing that, I'll pull the release and
find a safe landing spot for the tug; you're on your own.

I'm more concerned about the glider who gets way out of position. I
towed for over 25 years before dumping a glider. Hope I don't have to
do it again.

Dan Marotta

On 10/23/2014 8:22 PM, Papa3 wrote:
> On Thursday, October 23, 2014 10:41:57 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> It would be useful to hear your stories of how incidents of tow plane engine failure turned out for you. It seems that there is very little time to recognize, react, and recover. What are classic mistakes to make in this scenario?
>>
>> Would it be useful to practice 'release and land to the side of the tow plane path' (and have the tow plane fly a normal departure of course)? Any other recommended training exercises?
> In a little over 2,000 launches, I've had 2 actual towplane failures. In both cases, the failure was gradual, with no obvious puff of smoke or stopped prop. The problem signs were a gradual decrease in climb rate until we were barely climbing at all. The obvious difference between just flying through heavy sink (which is not uncommon at a mountain or ridge site) is the change in attitude of the towplane and the obvious need to pitch down to stay behind the now struggling towplane. The most memorable of these was behind an L-19 that was slowly gobbling up a valve during a tow on a bodacious ridge day. My good friend was towing, and he nursed us around the airfield in a close in pattern climbing at barely 100fpm, allowing a safe landing at any point. When he got me to 1,000 feet AGL, he waved me off and brought the sick L-19 in.
>
> FWIW... we practiced exactly this scenario in our instruction program at my old club. We would brief the mission with the towpilot, who would slowly back off the power starting at around 600 feet. I did this with at least a half-dozen students, and with most of them it would go something like this: Student:"Hey, what's the towpilot doing"? Me: "What do you mean"? Student: "We've stopped climbing" Me: "So, what are we going to do about it?" Student: "But he didn't wave me off..." It was pretty eye-opening to think that students might follow the towplane down if the towpilot was too busy to wave him/her off. The post-flight debriefs were usually quite enlightening.
>
> P3

[John Carlyle]

Dan, I understand. I'd just note that (1) you know two glider pilots who've experienced engine failure, and (2) these were airborne situations. I was talking about ground run engine failure, which I saw happen twice (but not as a glider pilot). I also have seen a near ground (15 foot altitude) rope failure. So I know I should be prepared to handle them.

Glider pilots and tow pilots have an iron-clad covenant that should be talked about, not just silently acknowledged: You do your very best not to kill me, and I'll do my very best not to kill you. Towing is a unique thing in aviation, it's serious business, and it needs to be constantly recognized as such.

Getting out of position on a tow is a cardinal sin for a glider pilot. I know of two people (not me) who did it over the last 10 years. Repercussions were swift and severe, as they should be. Sometimes, though, it's very difficult to stay in position - I've towed out of Minden and Blairstown through rotor on wave and ridge days when this was the case. In those flights I've been ready on the release, and I'd bet the tow pilot was ready on his release, too.

-John, Q3

On Friday, October 24, 2014 12:11:01 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I've never had a tug fail while in my
> glider but I've had two engine failures with gliders behind me and
> one after the glider released.
>
> My position on my own engine failure is this:* If I have the time,
> I'll get you to a safe position and wave you off.* Failing that,
> and I have the time, I'll wave you off.* Failing that, I'll pull
> the release and find a safe landing spot for the tug; you're on
> your own.
>
> I'm more concerned about the glider who gets way out of position.
> I towed for over 25 years before dumping a glider.* Hope I don't
> have to do it again.

[WAVEGURU]

>>Glider pilots and tow pilots have an iron-clad covenant that should be talked about, not just silently acknowledged: You do your very best not to kill me, and I'll do my very best not to kill you. Towing is a unique thing in aviation, it's serious business, and it needs to be constantly recognized as such.>>


I had a tow pilot get mad at me just the other month for doing a steering turn. He slammed the Pawnee over so hard I couldn't follow him and it broke the rope. My passenger was so freaked out he'll never fly again. When I talked to the tow pilot about it he admitted that it ****ed him off when I tried to steer him.

Boggs

[John Carlyle]

On Friday, October 24, 2014 12:43:25 PM UTC-4, Waveguru wrote:
> >>Glider pilots and tow pilots have an iron-clad covenant that should be talked about, not just silently acknowledged: You do your very best not to kill me, and I'll do my very best not to kill you. Towing is a unique thing in aviation, it's serious business, and it needs to be constantly recognized as such.>>
>
>
> I had a tow pilot get mad at me just the other month for doing a steering turn. He slammed the Pawnee over so hard I couldn't follow him and it broke the rope. My passenger was so freaked out he'll never fly again. When I talked to the tow pilot about it he admitted that it ****ed him off when I tried to steer him.
>
> Boggs

Hmmmm - maybe you should pass the word around your airport so that particular tow pilot never flies again! At the least acquaint him with the mnemonic IMSAFE so he can run a check on himself. For non-US pilots it stands for Illness, Medication, Stress, Alcohol, Fatigue, and Emotion (on occasionally Eating, especially lack thereof).

-John, Q3

[WAVEGURU]

<Hmmmm - maybe you should pass the word around your airport>

From what I understand, ours is not the only airport around here where he is no longer welcome to fly either tug, or his ASW-28...

Boggs

[Bruce Hoult[_2_]]

On 2014-10-24 16:43:23 +0000, Waveguru said:

>>>
>>> Glider pilots and tow pilots have an iron-clad covenant that should be
>>> talked about, not just silently acknowledged: You do your very best
>>> not to kill me, and I'll do my very best not to kill you. Towing is a
>>> unique thing in aviation, it's serious business, and it needs to be
>>> constantly recognized as such.>>
>
>
> I had a tow pilot get mad at me just the other month for doing a
> steering turn. He slammed the Pawnee over so hard I couldn't follow
> him and it broke the rope. My passenger was so freaked out he'll never
> fly again. When I talked to the tow pilot about it he admitted that it
> ****ed him off when I tried to steer him.
> Boggs

Around here, if a tow pilot hits the stops on any control (including
rudder) then you're going to wear the rope.

If you want him to turn, use the radio.

[Bill T]

We regularly review steering turns in the glider training program and talk it over with the tow pilots. We rarely use it in flight. Normally the glider pilots figure the tow knows where the lift is, or a destination for top of tow was coordinated before flight.

Engine failure, witnessed one. Stearman tow plane, the glider pilot saw a puff of smoke and the rope dropped from the tow in the next second. Glider ended up off field. The Stearman had popped the top off a jug and returned back to the field at minimum power.

I've had stuck valve vibrations in the Pawnee and held on to 300ft AGL and calmly directed the student solo pilot to "Release, release, release" and he did and returned to the field as did I.

Training and regular reviews.
BillT

[Cookie]

Soooo..when practicing "box the wake" one should expect there is a good possibility to be "given" the rope. ??

Cookie



On Friday, October 24, 2014 4:46:13 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On 2014-10-24 16:43:23 +0000, Waveguru said:
>
> >>>
> >>> Glider pilots and tow pilots have an iron-clad covenant that should be
> >>> talked about, not just silently acknowledged: You do your very best
> >>> not to kill me, and I'll do my very best not to kill you. Towing is a
> >>> unique thing in aviation, it's serious business, and it needs to be
> >>> constantly recognized as such.>>
> >
> >
> > I had a tow pilot get mad at me just the other month for doing a
> > steering turn. He slammed the Pawnee over so hard I couldn't follow
> > him and it broke the rope. My passenger was so freaked out he'll never
> > fly again. When I talked to the tow pilot about it he admitted that it
> > ****ed him off when I tried to steer him.
> > Boggs
>
> Around here, if a tow pilot hits the stops on any control (including
> rudder) then you're going to wear the rope.
>
> If you want him to turn, use the radio.

[Cookie]

When I used to do a lot of "scenic glider rides" many times the passenger would request to "fly over their house"..but the request was made once airborne...

Steering turns worked great for this!

Cookie




On Friday, October 24, 2014 11:31:25 PM UTC-4, Bill T wrote:
> We regularly review steering turns in the glider training program and talk it over with the tow pilots. We rarely use it in flight. Normally the glider pilots figure the tow knows where the lift is, or a destination for top of tow was coordinated before flight.
>
> Engine failure, witnessed one. Stearman tow plane, the glider pilot saw a puff of smoke and the rope dropped from the tow in the next second. Glider ended up off field. The Stearman had popped the top off a jug and returned back to the field at minimum power.
>
> I've had stuck valve vibrations in the Pawnee and held on to 300ft AGL and calmly directed the student solo pilot to "Release, release, release" and he did and returned to the field as did I.
>
> Training and regular reviews.
> BillT

[Dan Marotta]

We always brief that a student will box the wake above 1,000' AGL. We
also prebrief steering turns for training flights. Having said that,
I've steered the tug when he was a new tuggie and having radio
problems. No problems there.

Dan Marotta

On 10/25/2014 4:52 AM, Cookie wrote:
> Soooo..when practicing "box the wake" one should expect there is a good possibility to be "given" the rope. ??
>
> Cookie
>
>
>
> On Friday, October 24, 2014 4:46:13 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>> On 2014-10-24 16:43:23 +0000, Waveguru said:
>>
>>>>> Glider pilots and tow pilots have an iron-clad covenant that should be
>>>>> talked about, not just silently acknowledged: You do your very best
>>>>> not to kill me, and I'll do my very best not to kill you. Towing is a
>>>>> unique thing in aviation, it's serious business, and it needs to be
>>>>> constantly recognized as such.>>
>>>
>>> I had a tow pilot get mad at me just the other month for doing a
>>> steering turn. He slammed the Pawnee over so hard I couldn't follow
>>> him and it broke the rope. My passenger was so freaked out he'll never
>>> fly again. When I talked to the tow pilot about it he admitted that it
>>> ****ed him off when I tried to steer him.
>>> Boggs
>> Around here, if a tow pilot hits the stops on any control (including
>> rudder) then you're going to wear the rope.
>>
>> If you want him to turn, use the radio.

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, October 24, 2014 10:31:25 PM UTC-5, Bill T wrote:
> Engine failure, witnessed one. Stearman tow plane, the glider pilot saw a puff of smoke and the rope dropped from the tow in the next second. Glider ended up off field.

Unless there are special circumstances (such as an aero retrieve), I would consider it bad practice to tow a glider out of gliding range of the departing airfield. And considering that most towplanes climb faster than gliders sink, unless you take the glider directly downwind or to the lee of a ridge, it isn't that hard.

Wave conditions, of course, may introduce variables (rotor, etc)...

Or the glider pilot may be somewhat lacking in skill...

Kirk

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Friday, October 24, 2014 4:46:13 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:


> Around here, if a tow pilot hits the stops on any control (including
> rudder) then you're going to wear the rope.

Dumping the glider because the *rudder* hit the stop is way over the top. Someone needs to HTFU.

T8

[kirk.stant]

On Saturday, October 25, 2014 10:16:38 AM UTC-5, Evan Ludeman wrote:

> Dumping the glider because the *rudder* hit the stop is way over the top. Someone needs to HTFU.

What about a situation where the tug's vertical tail stalls due to the glider being way off to the side? If you are holding full rudder against the yaw, and the glider keeps on pulling the tail, you may stall the vertical tail - supposedly the ensuing snap roll is highly entertaining!

This situation may be more theoretical (I think the BGA had an article that mentioned it) but my technique is to let the glider pull my tail around if he really wants to. Unless wake boxing is prebriefed, I pretty much stay off the rudders and let the glider take me where he wants, if he gets out of position laterally.

Kirk
66

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Saturday, October 25, 2014 12:02:56 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Saturday, October 25, 2014 10:16:38 AM UTC-5, Evan Ludeman wrote:
>
> > Dumping the glider because the *rudder* hit the stop is way over the top. Someone needs to HTFU.
>
> What about a situation where the tug's vertical tail stalls due to the glider being way off to the side? If you are holding full rudder against the yaw, and the glider keeps on pulling the tail, you may stall the vertical tail - supposedly the ensuing snap roll is highly entertaining!
>
> This situation may be more theoretical (I think the BGA had an article that mentioned it) but my technique is to let the glider pull my tail around if he really wants to. Unless wake boxing is prebriefed, I pretty much stay off the rudders and let the glider take me where he wants, if he gets out of position laterally.
>
> Kirk
> 66

The release is there for real emergencies. 99+% of the time, the rudder hitting the stop momentarily is *not* an emergency.

T8

[Bill T]

It all happened at 100ft, no mans land for a return to the airfield for the glider.

[Dan Marotta]

It's not unusual to hit the rudder stops on takeoff at Moriarty since
we're famous for winds (usually cross winds). That doesn't bother me at
all as long as the trend of the takeoff is good. When I start reaching
for the release is when the nose of the tug slews uncontrollably in any
direction and any of the controls have reached the stops. That happens
when newbies are practicing boxing the wake, but that's been pre-briefed
so I tolerate that.

Dan Marotta

On 10/25/2014 9:16 AM, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> On Friday, October 24, 2014 4:46:13 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>
>
>> Around here, if a tow pilot hits the stops on any control (including
>> rudder) then you're going to wear the rope.
> Dumping the glider because the *rudder* hit the stop is way over the top. Someone needs to HTFU.
>
> T8

[Bruce Hoult[_2_]]

On 2014-10-25 10:54:55 +0000, Cookie said:

> When I used to do a lot of "scenic glider rides" many times the
> passenger would request to "fly over their house"..but the request was
> made once airborne...
>
> Steering turns worked great for this!

Pawnee climbs steeper than the DG1000 descends, so for any given
distance from the airport (other than straight over the boundary fence)
I can fly over lower in free flight than on tow. Especially with a bit
of a dive and then pull up.

I once did a fly by the living room window of a trial flighter who's
house was on a 500 ft ridge 2 miles from the airfield. I would be
nervous there at 50 knots, but with the climb after a pass at 100 knots
it was always going to be fine.

[[email protected]]

Licensed in 1978, a total of one tow plane engine failure.

I was flying a single seat glass ship with a CG hook. At about 700 ft agl, I inexplicably became high on the tow plane. I slipped and pushed the stick forward, but continued to get even higher!! The first thought through my mind was that the elevator was disconnected, but quickly realized that I was not high on the tow plane, the tow plane was low on me, and quickly getting lower. I released, announced "Glider away, taking the grass". The tow pilot responded "Thanks". We both landed with no problems.

It took about 2-3 seconds after I realized I was high to recognize there was a serious problem and respond to it by releasing. I had always assumed that in case of engine failure, that I would find myself over running the tow plane, or at least, there would be a lot of slack rope. Not so in this case. The only hint I had was the height difference - no slack rope, no black smoke, no engine parts flying back at me, no emergency call from the tow pilot, nothing.

P9

[Bruce Hoult[_2_]]

On 2014-10-25 10:52:02 +0000, Cookie said:

> Soooo..when practicing "box the wake" one should expect there is a good
> possibility to be "given" the rope. ??
>
> Cookie
>
>
>
> On Friday, October 24, 2014 4:46:13 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>> On 2014-10-24 16:43:23 +0000, Waveguru said:
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Glider pilots and tow pilots have an iron-clad covenant that should be
>>>>> talked about, not just silently acknowledged: You do your very best
>>>>> not to kill me, and I'll do my very best not to kill you. Towing is a
>>>>> unique thing in aviation, it's serious business, and it needs to be
>>>>> constantly recognized as such.>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I had a tow pilot get mad at me just the other month for doing a
>>> steering turn. He slammed the Pawnee over so hard I couldn't follow
>>> him and it broke the rope. My passenger was so freaked out he'll never
>>> fly again. When I talked to the tow pilot about it he admitted that it
>>> ****ed him off when I tried to steer him.
>>> Boggs
>>
>> Around here, if a tow pilot hits the stops on any control (including
>> rudder) then you're going to wear the rope.
>>
>> If you want him to turn, use the radio.

If boxing the wake causes the towplane to reach control stops then you
are doing it WAY WRONG and should expect to wear the rope, yes.

[Cookie]

Ok...and signalling a turn by moving out to the side will not make the towplane hit its rudder stops either ...so what's the problem?


Shall we now replace all 17 of the "standard American soaring signals"...with "use radio"?

Cookie

>
> If boxing the wake causes the towplane to reach control stops then you
> are doing it WAY WRONG and should expect to wear the rope, yes.

[Bruce Hoult[_2_]]

On 2014-10-26 09:45:47 +0000, Cookie said:

> Ok...and signalling a turn by moving out to the side will not make the
> towplane hit its rudder stops either ...so what's the problem?
>
>
> Shall we now replace all 17 of the "standard American soaring
> signals"...with "use radio"?
>
> Cookie
>
>>
>> If boxing the wake causes the towplane to reach control stops then you
>> are doing it WAY WRONG and should expect to wear the rope, yes.

If it's mere communication ... like wagging your wings ... that's one
thing. If it's physically pulling the tail around against the tow pllot
attempting to maintain his intended heading then that's quite another.

[Bruce Hoult[_2_]]

On 2014-10-26 09:45:47 +0000, Cookie said:

> Ok...and signalling a turn by moving out to the side will not make the
> towplane hit its rudder stops either ...so what's the problem?
>
>
> Shall we now replace all 17 of the "standard American soaring
> signals"...with "use radio"?
>
> Cookie
>
>>
>> If boxing the wake causes the towplane to reach control stops then you
>> are doing it WAY WRONG and should expect to wear the rope, yes.

Btw:

Pawnee wingspan 36 ft 2 in. So out at his wingtip you are 5.5 m off
center. On a 60m rope that's 5.3 degrees angle on the rope.

If the glider weighs 600 kg and has a 30:1 L/D at towing speed then
there will be 20 kg of pull in the rope from drag, plus (at 600 fpm, 3
m/s climb and 70 knots 38 m/s airspeed) another 48 kg pull from
climbing. Total 68 kg. About 6 kg of which will be sideways pull on the
tail.

Anyone want to figure out how much rudder deflection it takes to
produce 6 kg sideways force at 70 knots? It won't be a lot.

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, October 24, 2014 10:40:08 AM UTC-4, John Carlyle wrote:
> I've experienced simulated power failures and simulated rope breaks just after I'm flying but the tow plane isn't.
>
..
..
..
> The simulated tow plane power failure was not a piece of cake. It took a few seconds to figure out that something was wrong, find the release and transition to landing mode.

The case of the towplane being on the ground and aborting takeoff when the glider is flying in ground effect is problematic.

If the runway has poor straight ahead landing options (I mean poor options for landing after a 100 AGL engine failure), then aborting takeoff before the towplane leaves the ground, even for an unconfirmed engine/pilot problem, is understandable. But the glider having much less drag is fated to fly past the tow plane (if it avoids collision).

Is it possible for the glider to turn fast enough to avoid colliding with the towplane? What happens when a glider touches a wingtip to the ground at 40 knots?

At what velocity does the glider have enough energy to fly over top of the towplane? Or is that impossible?

Any experiences/thoughts?

[Cookie]

Its all "communication"..

But the whole point of the "turn" signal is that the tow pilot doesn't need to or try to "fight" it.

So which signals do you use radio for and which signals do you use the standard accepted signal?

Do you brief glider pilots as to which signals you do not respond to and which you do?

Has the SSA changed/adopted the accepted signal for "tow plane please turn" to now a "radio signal"?

When the tow plane rudder hits the stop, what happens? It snap rolls!!!??

Cookie





On Sunday, October 26, 2014 6:48:57 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On 2014-10-26 09:45:47 +0000, Cookie said:
>
> > Ok...and signalling a turn by moving out to the side will not make the
> > towplane hit its rudder stops either ...so what's the problem?
> >
> >
> > Shall we now replace all 17 of the "standard American soaring
> > signals"...with "use radio"?
> >
> > Cookie
> >
> >>
> >> If boxing the wake causes the towplane to reach control stops then you
> >> are doing it WAY WRONG and should expect to wear the rope, yes.
>
> If it's mere communication ... like wagging your wings ... that's one
> thing. If it's physically pulling the tail around against the tow pllot
> attempting to maintain his intended heading then that's quite another.

[Cookie]

So, you're saying the rudder won't even be near the stop on a typical box the wake, or "please turn" signal....so what's the problem?


Cookie





On Sunday, October 26, 2014 7:03:30 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On 2014-10-26 09:45:47 +0000, Cookie said:
>
> > Ok...and signalling a turn by moving out to the side will not make the
> > towplane hit its rudder stops either ...so what's the problem?
> >
> >
> > Shall we now replace all 17 of the "standard American soaring
> > signals"...with "use radio"?
> >
> > Cookie
> >
> >>
> >> If boxing the wake causes the towplane to reach control stops then you
> >> are doing it WAY WRONG and should expect to wear the rope, yes.
>
> Btw:
>
> Pawnee wingspan 36 ft 2 in. So out at his wingtip you are 5.5 m off
> center. On a 60m rope that's 5.3 degrees angle on the rope.
>
> If the glider weighs 600 kg and has a 30:1 L/D at towing speed then
> there will be 20 kg of pull in the rope from drag, plus (at 600 fpm, 3
> m/s climb and 70 knots 38 m/s airspeed) another 48 kg pull from
> climbing. Total 68 kg. About 6 kg of which will be sideways pull on the
> tail.
>
> Anyone want to figure out how much rudder deflection it takes to
> produce 6 kg sideways force at 70 knots? It won't be a lot.

[Bruce Hoult[_2_]]

On 2014-10-26 13:20:35 +0000, Cookie said:

> Its all "communication"..
>
> But the whole point of the "turn" signal is that the tow pilot doesn't
> need to or try to "fight" it.
>
> So which signals do you use radio for and which signals do you use the
> standard accepted signal?
>
> Do you brief glider pilots as to which signals you do not respond to
> and which you do?
>
> Has the SSA changed/adopted the accepted signal for "tow plane please
> turn" to now a "radio signal"?
>
> When the tow plane rudder hits the stop, what happens? It snap rolls!!!??
>
> Cookie
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sunday, October 26, 2014 6:48:57 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>> On 2014-10-26 09:45:47 +0000, Cookie said:
>>
>>> Ok...and signalling a turn by moving out to the side will not make the
>>> towplane hit its rudder stops either ...so what's the problem?
>>>
>>>
>>> Shall we now replace all 17 of the "standard American soaring
>>> signals"...with "use radio"?
>>>
>>> Cookie
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If boxing the wake causes the towplane to reach control stops then you
>>>> are doing it WAY WRONG and should expect to wear the rope, yes.
>>
>> If it's mere communication ... like wagging your wings ... that's one
>> thing. If it's physically pulling the tail around against the tow pllot
>> attempting to maintain his intended heading then that's quite another.

In this country there are two standard accepted non-radio signals from
the towplane, and one from the glider:

From towplane:
- release immediately
- check your airbrakes

From glider:
- I am unable to release

Anything else is prearranged before takeoff, or else in flight over the radio.

The SSA has no influence here.

[John Carlyle]

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:59:46 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> The case of the towplane being on the ground and aborting takeoff when the glider is flying in ground effect is problematic.
>
> If the runway has poor straight ahead landing options (I mean poor options for landing after a 100 AGL engine failure), then aborting takeoff before the towplane leaves the ground, even for an unconfirmed engine/pilot problem, is understandable. But the glider having much less drag is fated to fly past the tow plane (if it avoids collision).
>
> Is it possible for the glider to turn fast enough to avoid colliding with the towplane? What happens when a glider touches a wingtip to the ground at 40 knots?
>
> At what velocity does the glider have enough energy to fly over top of the towplane? Or is that impossible?
>
> Any experiences/thoughts?

I don't understand why you call low level tow plane engine failure "problematic". I've seen two actual low level engine failures in ten years of glider flying (to be specific, the glider was flying and the tow plane was not). Tow planes lead a rough life and engine failures do happen, a lot more than we'd like.

Your comment "the glider is fated to fly past the tow plane" is exactly why (1) you need to prepare for this and (2) you need to see this situation for real. Yes, you can turn to avoid the tow plane if (and only if) you recognize that you must do so soon enough. If you touch a wingtip at 40 kt you will be in for Mr. Toad's wild ride - hopefully you and the glider will not need major repairs. I wouldn't even think about trying to fly over the tow plane - but then the runways I fly from have lots of good grass on their sides.

Again, the point I was trying to make is that a low level tow plane engine failure does happen and that experiencing one (albeit simulated) was a completely different affair from what I had imagined from reading about them. You have to be alert, and you must react quickly.

-John, Q3

[Cookie]

No...there are 17 accepted signals...none require radio...that's the beauty of signals.......

who put you in charge?


Cookie



On Sunday, October 26, 2014 9:59:21 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> On 2014-10-26 13:20:35 +0000, Cookie said:
>
> > Its all "communication"..
> >
> > But the whole point of the "turn" signal is that the tow pilot doesn't
> > need to or try to "fight" it.
> >
> > So which signals do you use radio for and which signals do you use the
> > standard accepted signal?

>
> In this country there are two standard accepted non-radio signals from
> the towplane, and one from the glider:
>
> From towplane:
> - release immediately
> - check your airbrakes
>
> From glider:
> - I am unable to release
>
> Anything else is prearranged before takeoff, or else in flight over the radio.
>
> The SSA has no influence here.

[Cookie]

http://www.soaringsafety.org/pilots/ic7.htm


Gee...look at the first signal....

I suggest you contact the soaring safety foundation and have this situation rectified immediately!

Cookie


> In this country there are two standard accepted non-radio signals from
> the towplane, and one from the glider:
>
> From towplane:
> - release immediately
> - check your airbrakes
>
> From glider:
> - I am unable to release
>
> Anything else is prearranged before takeoff, or else in flight over the radio.
>
> The SSA has no influence here.

[WAVEGURU]

I'm with you cookie. Radio communications often get stepped on or are somehow compromised... The STANDARD AMERICAN SOARING SIGNALS are not.

Boggs

[Cookie]

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 11:09:11 AM UTC-4, Waveguru wrote:
> I'm with you cookie. Radio communications often get stepped on or are somehow compromised... The STANDARD AMERICAN SOARING SIGNALS are not.
>
> Boggs

Thank you!

Cookie

[son_of_flubber]

> On Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:59:46 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > The case of the towplane being on the ground and aborting takeoff when the glider is flying in ground effect is problematic.

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 10:27:28 AM UTC-4, John Carlyle wrote:
> I don't understand why you call low level tow plane engine failure "problematic".

Problematic
noun
1. a thing that constitutes a problem or difficulty.

The problem is obvious: the glider pilot has very little time avoid collision.

jc:

>>I've seen two actual low level engine failures in ten years of glider >>flying (to be specific, the glider was flying and the tow plane was not).

Was there a collision?

I've seen the aftermath of one such aborted takeoff. The tow plane and glider collided (no human injuries).

What is the success rate for this maneuver?

[John Carlyle]

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 10:03:20 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Problematic
> noun
> 1. a thing that constitutes a problem or difficulty.

It also means "untrue, unlikely or incorrect".

> Was there a collision? I've seen the aftermath of one such aborted takeoff. The tow plane and glider collided (no human injuries). What is the success rate for this maneuver?

I've seen two cases that ended with zero damage.

-John, Q3