HG pilot in Brazil goes long - 450 km straight out- new source of SP pilots?

[Nick Kennedy]

http://www.xcbrasil.com.br/flight/115498

IMHO the SSA should be putting more effort into "headhunting" these guys into our sport. They know how to fly, they know weather, they want to go soaring and XC.

At Nephi during the OLC event this year Bruno got all the 750 km + pilots up for a photo, I believe 7 of the 10 were past HG pilots.

One hurtle to get some of these guys is the greatly increased cost associated with Soaring.


That said, there are a ton of accomplished HG and PG pilots out there that have cycled out of those sports for various reasons, and at the top of that list for many of those guys is the accident rate. That is why I left. The foot launch and foot landing can be brutal. And then there is the tailless flight "tumbling" issue.

I would like to try a concentrated effort to contact and mentor these guys for a few years and see if it is productive. It may be worthwhile to help both the general membership numbers and the contest participation numbers.
Nick

[HGXC[_2_]]

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 10:27:59 AM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> http://www.xcbrasil.com.br/flight/115498
>
> IMHO the SSA should be putting more effort into "headhunting" these guys into our sport. They know how to fly, they know weather, they want to go soaring and XC.
>
> At Nephi during the OLC event this year Bruno got all the 750 km + pilots up for a photo, I believe 7 of the 10 were past HG pilots.
>
> One hurtle to get some of these guys is the greatly increased cost associated with Soaring.
>
>
> That said, there are a ton of accomplished HG and PG pilots out there that have cycled out of those sports for various reasons, and at the top of that list for many of those guys is the accident rate. That is why I left. The foot launch and foot landing can be brutal. And then there is the tailless flight "tumbling" issue.
>
> I would like to try a concentrated effort to contact and mentor these guys for a few years and see if it is productive. It may be worthwhile to help both the general membership numbers and the contest participation numbers.
> Nick

Hi Nick,

Its Dennis Cavagnaro and we flew Hang Gliders together many years back. Came into soaring a couple years ago along with two other HGing pilots in the New England area. I of course agree with your suggestion.

Dennis

[xcnick]

It was only dangerous if you flew for the Green Team.

For me flying sailplanes has been much cheaper. I will never add to the competition seen, but I am having plenty of fun. My Schweizer is worth what I paid for it 15 years ago. The sun would have destroyed three or four hang gliders in the same time period. Tows are less expensive than buying 4X4's and finding a new girl friend every weekend for open distance retrieval.

[Mark628CA]

At the last three SSA Conventions I attended, I suggested to either the Chairman of the ExComm or some other prominent member of the Staff that a Breakfast should be hosted (at the normal exorbitant fee) for hang glider pilots. I think it would be cool to meet some morning to see how many old faces we recognize who have made the jump to sailplanes. I see a lot of names on RAS who I remember from those great days of flying hang gliders.

Naturally, the idea made it nowhere with the SSA.

[Nick Kennedy]

I am curious if the SSA Board would support a small expenditure of funds to go out and try to get these already trained HG and PG pilots, that already know how to thermal and glide to join the SSA and to get their Glider Rating.

How does this rough proposal sound?

1. Get the contact information, for the last say 15 years, of the membership of the United Stated Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association.

2. Send out a return postage paid greeting, a welcome to learn to fly sailplanes and a inquiry of their possible interest.
Include generic "Cost to get your rating", some glossy pictures, some actual market costs for used gliders. Include the various major flight schools and major clubs and links to more local clubs.
3. Handle any positive responses professionally and get them a Mentor [ we would need to get some SSA members to do this] and or get a buddy system intact immediately, don't lose them.
Don't try and sell a ride, Sell a Rating, the whole package, books and training.
Explain the FAA is not hanging out with us and we never [ hopefully anyway!] see them or interact with them.
Try and get new prospects hooked up with others newbies in the same area so they have someone to relate to, learn with and maybe share a glider with.

4. As they move into glider ownership, keep the mentor ship going
HELP them get a good ship and trailer, not some POS
HELP them with instruments, and make sure they have good ones and that they work Correctly.
Help them launch at the right time.
Help them get out there on the good days by calling them.
Help them get on the OLC, this is called "setting the hook!" ha!


When I got into Soaring I had 2 awesome mentors, Jeff Campbell and "Glider" Bob Saunders. They helped me then and we have been a team ever since.

Trying to turn GA pilots, CAP Pilots etc. into Glider pilots just ain't working. Learning to soar is like Golf and Skiing; It is expense, takes forever and lots of smart people just don't ever click into it. And you never really master any of these sports, which actually is a major draw for most.
Believe me we have mentored alot of great GA pilots and few are going to or are into gliding today. Some for sure, but not many.
You have to want to go soaring so bad you will sacrifice a lot of stuff; Relationships, time with family, money, ignore the danger, accept spending the whole day to see it OD and rain etc etc.
Real soaring pilots are a rare breed.

I believe that there is a percentage of "soaring junkies" sitting at home that have cycled out out of HG and PG, or are about to, that would be willing to join Gliding IF it were clearly explained to them what it costs, what it takes, where to go and how happening it is in places like Moriarty, Nephi, Minden, Ely, Ridge Soaring, Seminole, Warner, Blairstown etc and all the great clubs out there.
The ease of a 5-6 hour flight, the relative ease of doing 500 km all the time.
The No more chase crew. How easy it is to stay up. Even the top guys who are very good bombout all the time; actually get them into a properly instrumented Ventus LS4, LS3 ASW 19/20 Discus etc and they go nuts.

[HGXC[_2_]]

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 10:25:34 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> I am curious if the SSA Board would support a small expenditure of funds to go out and try to get these already trained HG and PG pilots, that already know how to thermal and glide to join the SSA and to get their Glider Rating.
>
> How does this rough proposal sound?
>
> 1. Get the contact information, for the last say 15 years, of the membership of the United Stated Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association.
>
> 2. Send out a return postage paid greeting, a welcome to learn to fly sailplanes and a inquiry of their possible interest.
> Include generic "Cost to get your rating", some glossy pictures, some actual market costs for used gliders. Include the various major flight schools and major clubs and links to more local clubs.
> 3. Handle any positive responses professionally and get them a Mentor [ we would need to get some SSA members to do this] and or get a buddy system intact immediately, don't lose them.
> Don't try and sell a ride, Sell a Rating, the whole package, books and training.
> Explain the FAA is not hanging out with us and we never [ hopefully anyway!] see them or interact with them.
> Try and get new prospects hooked up with others newbies in the same area so they have someone to relate to, learn with and maybe share a glider with.
>
> 4. As they move into glider ownership, keep the mentor ship going
> HELP them get a good ship and trailer, not some POS
> HELP them with instruments, and make sure they have good ones and that they work Correctly.
> Help them launch at the right time.
> Help them get out there on the good days by calling them.
> Help them get on the OLC, this is called "setting the hook!" ha!
>
>
> When I got into Soaring I had 2 awesome mentors, Jeff Campbell and "Glider" Bob Saunders. They helped me then and we have been a team ever since.
>
> Trying to turn GA pilots, CAP Pilots etc. into Glider pilots just ain't working. Learning to soar is like Golf and Skiing; It is expense, takes forever and lots of smart people just don't ever click into it. And you never really master any of these sports, which actually is a major draw for most.
> Believe me we have mentored alot of great GA pilots and few are going to or are into gliding today. Some for sure, but not many.
> You have to want to go soaring so bad you will sacrifice a lot of stuff; Relationships, time with family, money, ignore the danger, accept spending the whole day to see it OD and rain etc etc.
> Real soaring pilots are a rare breed.
>
> I believe that there is a percentage of "soaring junkies" sitting at home that have cycled out out of HG and PG, or are about to, that would be willing to join Gliding IF it were clearly explained to them what it costs, what it takes, where to go and how happening it is in places like Moriarty, Nephi, Minden, Ely, Ridge Soaring, Seminole, Warner, Blairstown etc and all the great clubs out there.
> The ease of a 5-6 hour flight, the relative ease of doing 500 km all the time.
> The No more chase crew. How easy it is to stay up. Even the top guys who are very good bombout all the time; actually get them into a properly instrumented Ventus LS4, LS3 ASW 19/20 Discus etc and they go nuts.

Amen brother Nick!

Its the taste of going further, the challenge to stay up longer that drives HGing pilots and except for a few tow parks the physical and personal demands take there toll over the years. I flew HGers for 38 years, held regional XC records, placed well in national contests, won and place in regional contests. But to regularly fly with my HGing mates i had to carry my 85 lb glider plus harness up a steep mountain trail and after a while I would only go on the good days. Well in New England there aren't many "good" days. Waiting in a field until 2 in the morning after a 100 mile flight was loosing its luster.

At some point every HGer pilot faces a decision, either detune your equipment and fly less aggressively or quit altogether. Or they can increase their equipment performance and fly more miles and hours then they ever could before. Reach out to them and show them how to work a rudder and they will become excellent pilots.

Dennis

[SF]

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:43:00 PM UTC-4, Mark628CA wrote:
> At the last three SSA Conventions I attended, I suggested to either the Chairman of the ExComm or some other prominent member of the Staff that a Breakfast should be hosted (at the normal exorbitant fee) for hang glider pilots. I think it would be cool to meet some morning to see how many old faces we recognize who have made the jump to sailplanes. I see a lot of names on RAS who I remember from those great days of flying hang gliders.
>
> Naturally, the idea made it nowhere with the SSA.

Mark, I put this in my 2016 SSA Convention Folder, Good idea.

SF

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Monday, October 27, 2014 6:46:22 AM UTC-7, HGXC wrote:
> On Sunday, October 26, 2014 10:25:34 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> > I am curious if the SSA Board would support a small expenditure of funds to go out and try to get these already trained HG and PG pilots, that already know how to thermal and glide to join the SSA and to get their Glider Rating.
> >
> > How does this rough proposal sound?
> >
> > 1. Get the contact information, for the last say 15 years, of the membership of the United Stated Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association.
> >
> > 2. Send out a return postage paid greeting, a welcome to learn to fly sailplanes and a inquiry of their possible interest.
> > Include generic "Cost to get your rating", some glossy pictures, some actual market costs for used gliders. Include the various major flight schools and major clubs and links to more local clubs.
> > 3. Handle any positive responses professionally and get them a Mentor [ we would need to get some SSA members to do this] and or get a buddy system intact immediately, don't lose them.
> > Don't try and sell a ride, Sell a Rating, the whole package, books and training.
> > Explain the FAA is not hanging out with us and we never [ hopefully anyway!] see them or interact with them.
> > Try and get new prospects hooked up with others newbies in the same area so they have someone to relate to, learn with and maybe share a glider with.
> >
> > 4. As they move into glider ownership, keep the mentor ship going
> > HELP them get a good ship and trailer, not some POS
> > HELP them with instruments, and make sure they have good ones and that they work Correctly.
> > Help them launch at the right time.
> > Help them get out there on the good days by calling them.
> > Help them get on the OLC, this is called "setting the hook!" ha!
> >
> >
> > When I got into Soaring I had 2 awesome mentors, Jeff Campbell and "Glider" Bob Saunders. They helped me then and we have been a team ever since.
> >
> > Trying to turn GA pilots, CAP Pilots etc. into Glider pilots just ain't working. Learning to soar is like Golf and Skiing; It is expense, takes forever and lots of smart people just don't ever click into it. And you never really master any of these sports, which actually is a major draw for most..
> > Believe me we have mentored alot of great GA pilots and few are going to or are into gliding today. Some for sure, but not many.
> > You have to want to go soaring so bad you will sacrifice a lot of stuff; Relationships, time with family, money, ignore the danger, accept spending the whole day to see it OD and rain etc etc.
> > Real soaring pilots are a rare breed.
> >
> > I believe that there is a percentage of "soaring junkies" sitting at home that have cycled out out of HG and PG, or are about to, that would be willing to join Gliding IF it were clearly explained to them what it costs, what it takes, where to go and how happening it is in places like Moriarty, Nephi, Minden, Ely, Ridge Soaring, Seminole, Warner, Blairstown etc and all the great clubs out there.
> > The ease of a 5-6 hour flight, the relative ease of doing 500 km all the time.
> > The No more chase crew. How easy it is to stay up. Even the top guys who are very good bombout all the time; actually get them into a properly instrumented Ventus LS4, LS3 ASW 19/20 Discus etc and they go nuts.
>
> Amen brother Nick!
>
> Its the taste of going further, the challenge to stay up longer that drives HGing pilots and except for a few tow parks the physical and personal demands take there toll over the years. I flew HGers for 38 years, held regional XC records, placed well in national contests, won and place in regional contests. But to regularly fly with my HGing mates i had to carry my 85 lb glider plus harness up a steep mountain trail and after a while I would only go on the good days. Well in New England there aren't many "good" days. Waiting in a field until 2 in the morning after a 100 mile flight was loosing its luster.
>
> At some point every HGer pilot faces a decision, either detune your equipment and fly less aggressively or quit altogether. Or they can increase their equipment performance and fly more miles and hours then they ever could before. Reach out to them and show them how to work a rudder and they will become excellent pilots.
>
> Dennis

Amen and very well said Nick (and every one else). I flew hang gliders for nearly 20 years, and although I always knew about sailplanes and that they can fly faster and further, it didnt occur to me the real potential of sailplanes until Dan Murphy introduced me. I got immediately hooked when I realized that with a sailplane I can fly XC almost everyday and everywhere, and not just milk runs in perfect days as with hang gliders, especially in the Bay Area, where hardly anyone flies XC with HG or PG, while we regularly fly 500km flights with sailplanes year around.

Ramy

[Mike the Strike]

There are probably few hang glider or paraglider pilots around who are unaware of sailplanes and plenty of us who switched. I and several of my friends switched to sailplanes in the 1980s after a series of fatal accidents in our hang gliding club. I'm sure we all knew it wasn't the safest of sports (especially mountain foot-launching), but it took a couple of sharp shocks to get us to switch.

Mountain launches and cross-country retrieves sure took a lot of 4-wheel drive time!

Deflatable wings are a whole other story!

Mike

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Monday, October 27, 2014 3:16:14 PM UTC-7, Mike the Strike wrote:
> There are probably few hang glider or paraglider pilots around who are unaware of sailplanes and plenty of us who switched. I and several of my friends switched to sailplanes in the 1980s after a series of fatal accidents in our hang gliding club. I'm sure we all knew it wasn't the safest of sports (especially mountain foot-launching), but it took a couple of sharp shocks to get us to switch.
>
> Mountain launches and cross-country retrieves sure took a lot of 4-wheel drive time!
>
> Deflatable wings are a whole other story!
>
> Mike

To be honest, I don't think that we can use safety as a reason to attract aging HG pilots. Maybe PG pilots. Obviously risk of injuries is magnitude lower, but not the fatality rate.

Ramy

[gb]

SSA runs a small ad in the PG/HG magazine, PG/HG pilots are of course aware of the existence of sailplanes. I think pilots are not crossing over because they don't want to. It isn't cost, I would guess the majority of PG pilots that I've met could afford sailplane flying. Probably more HG pilots that switch as they are used to the pain of rigging and having to sort special transportation(roof racks instead of trailers.) Besides I'm sure HG pilots would rather disappear to the sailplane field then switch to PGs and fly in front of their old HG friends.
Changing hobbies also involves an ego barrier that can be a large hurdle, if you have been doing a hobby for ten years even if you are just OK at it, you have some standing and credibility(perhaps less then people think, but it is real to them.) Switch hobbies and you go from knowing the ropes to being the know nothing new guy. A lot of people's egos cannot handle that. As for getting them in the door Pimping FAST certificates isn't going to do it, the motivation isn't there. Maybe if you took a lesson from drug dealers and gave the first one free you might hook some converts. I went from sailplanes to PG makes me laugh how the various disciplines score converts. Such a nice reaffirming data point to your chosen chariot when someone discards what they are used to and joins you.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 6:43:00 PM UTC-6, Mark628CA wrote:
> At the last three SSA Conventions I attended, I suggested to either the Chairman of the ExComm or some other prominent member of the Staff that a Breakfast should be hosted (at the normal exorbitant fee) for hang glider pilots. I think it would be cool to meet some morning to see how many old faces we recognize who have made the jump to sailplanes. I see a lot of names on RAS who I remember from those great days of flying hang gliders.
>
> Naturally, the idea made it nowhere with the SSA.

I am sure we can arrange one for Greenvile if you are willing to host it. Specific theme?

Frank Whiteley

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:25:34 PM UTC-6, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> I am curious if the SSA Board would support a small expenditure of funds to go out and try to get these already trained HG and PG pilots, that already know how to thermal and glide to join the SSA and to get their Glider Rating.
>
> How does this rough proposal sound?
>
> 1. Get the contact information, for the last say 15 years, of the membership of the United Stated Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association.
>
> 2. Send out a return postage paid greeting, a welcome to learn to fly sailplanes and a inquiry of their possible interest.
> Include generic "Cost to get your rating", some glossy pictures, some actual market costs for used gliders. Include the various major flight schools and major clubs and links to more local clubs.
> 3. Handle any positive responses professionally and get them a Mentor [ we would need to get some SSA members to do this] and or get a buddy system intact immediately, don't lose them.
> Don't try and sell a ride, Sell a Rating, the whole package, books and training.
> Explain the FAA is not hanging out with us and we never [ hopefully anyway!] see them or interact with them.
> Try and get new prospects hooked up with others newbies in the same area so they have someone to relate to, learn with and maybe share a glider with.
>
> 4. As they move into glider ownership, keep the mentor ship going
> HELP them get a good ship and trailer, not some POS
> HELP them with instruments, and make sure they have good ones and that they work Correctly.
> Help them launch at the right time.
> Help them get out there on the good days by calling them.
> Help them get on the OLC, this is called "setting the hook!" ha!
>
>
> When I got into Soaring I had 2 awesome mentors, Jeff Campbell and "Glider" Bob Saunders. They helped me then and we have been a team ever since.
>
> Trying to turn GA pilots, CAP Pilots etc. into Glider pilots just ain't working. Learning to soar is like Golf and Skiing; It is expense, takes forever and lots of smart people just don't ever click into it. And you never really master any of these sports, which actually is a major draw for most.
> Believe me we have mentored alot of great GA pilots and few are going to or are into gliding today. Some for sure, but not many.
> You have to want to go soaring so bad you will sacrifice a lot of stuff; Relationships, time with family, money, ignore the danger, accept spending the whole day to see it OD and rain etc etc.
> Real soaring pilots are a rare breed.
>
> I believe that there is a percentage of "soaring junkies" sitting at home that have cycled out out of HG and PG, or are about to, that would be willing to join Gliding IF it were clearly explained to them what it costs, what it takes, where to go and how happening it is in places like Moriarty, Nephi, Minden, Ely, Ridge Soaring, Seminole, Warner, Blairstown etc and all the great clubs out there.
> The ease of a 5-6 hour flight, the relative ease of doing 500 km all the time.
> The No more chase crew. How easy it is to stay up. Even the top guys who are very good bombout all the time; actually get them into a properly instrumented Ventus LS4, LS3 ASW 19/20 Discus etc and they go nuts.

I've forwarded your recommendation to the chair of the G&D committee. I think we can reach out. I'll contact Davis and maybe we'll hit ozreport with some items. Perhaps you and Mark, Bob, and some others can write up some items. Maybe we can get some to attend from Wallaby Ranch and other points south if there is still a winter migration. For several years at least half of the top OLC pilots in the US have had a HG background.

Frank Whiteley

[Paul Villinski]

I came to sailplanes after 275 hours of paragliding, which I still love. The hook for me was the fact that in the New York area, it was much easier to score airtime in a glider than in a paraglider. I have thought about this issue of "recruiting" PG and HG pilots for years. One thought is to arrange to "trade a page" in Soaring and the USHPA magazines: each issue could host a page written by a pilot of the other discipline, in order to shed some light on the respective sports, and gain access to each other's membership.

I think the big barrier is the perceived cost of learning to soar / getting the Private Pilot Glider ticket / owning a sailplane. I once sat on the launch at Ellenville not flying, waiting hour after hour for the wind to sit down, and watched sailplanes soaring the ridge over our heads. When I asked my fellow PG / HG pilots why we weren't doing that, the answer was "Sailplanes are a rich man's game." Give me a page in "Hang Gliding and Paragliding Magazine" to do a cost per hour comparison and I can clear that up. But that's a message we need time to communicate repeatedly.

Another barrier is lack of "hipness." Take a look at the USHPA magazine and you'll see what I mean -- it makes Soaring Magazine look like a poorly designed high school newspaper, or some geriatric version of that. Soaring Mag does not make soaring look "sexy," I'm sad to say. We need to hire a young, hip designer and a young, hip editor and let them have their way with our rag.

Lots of good ideas in this thread. I, for one, would be happy to "mentor" PG pilots into our little sport. A lot of these guys and gals are already really excellent soaring pilots who understand the air and how to soar in a truly low-performance (8:1 L/D) aircraft. Give them a good taste of 35:1, a two hour XC flight in the ASK 21, a $15,000 first-generation glass ship and a $30 tow and you will have more members of the SSA...at least a few more.....

[HGXC[_2_]]

On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 3:43:03 PM UTC-4, gotovkotzepkoi wrote:
> "Another barrier is lack of "hipness." Take a look at the USHPA magazine
> and you'll see what I mean -- it makes Soaring Magazine look like a
> poorly designed high school newspaper, or some geriatric version of
> that. Soaring Mag does not make soaring look "sexy," I'm sad to say. We
> need to hire a young, hip designer and a young, hip editor and let them
> have their way with our rag."
>
> Paul hits the nail right on the head. Sailplanes are perceived as an old
> man's game. Soaring Magazine is about as sexy as Popular Mechanics. No,
> I take that back, Popular Mechanics is sexier than Soaring Magazine. One
> small example: the Final Glide section. Ok, it's sad when people die but
> Jesus, get it out of the magazine. It's like people who meet at the
> mailbox at the retirement community where the first topic is: who died
> last night? And let's take the upcoming film "Cloudbase". It's likely to
> be the first really inspirational soaring film to come out of the US.
> But who is depicted in the film? Old people. That simply reinforces the
> opinion that many HG and PGing people have. If you want to motivate
> young people from the HG and PG community then try something like this:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKBk1Bmsm8M
> ..all young people here.
>
>
>
>
> --
> gotovkotzepkoi

I guess when i started flying over 40 years ago I wasn't paying so much attention to what age everyone was. I was more interested in flying. Then i switched to sailplanes a few years ago. You sure are worried about your image.. My club has people of all ages and you would be surprised that none of us wear bibs unless we are eating a steamed Lobster!

[gb]

On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 3:56:20 PM UTC-4, HGXC wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 3:43:03 PM UTC-4, gotovkotzepkoi wrote:
> > "Another barrier is lack of "hipness."
Paragliding definitely has better filmmakers http://youtu.be/L62faWn-sa8

[joesimmers[_2_]]

GB, you are right, I have never been interested in paragliding but after watching that video it makes you want to give it a try.

[HGXC[_2_]]

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 10:27:59 AM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
> http://www.xcbrasil.com.br/flight/115498
>
> IMHO the SSA should be putting more effort into "headhunting" these guys into our sport. They know how to fly, they know weather, they want to go soaring and XC.
>
> At Nephi during the OLC event this year Bruno got all the 750 km + pilots up for a photo, I believe 7 of the 10 were past HG pilots.
>
> One hurtle to get some of these guys is the greatly increased cost associated with Soaring.
>
>
> That said, there are a ton of accomplished HG and PG pilots out there that have cycled out of those sports for various reasons, and at the top of that list for many of those guys is the accident rate. That is why I left. The foot launch and foot landing can be brutal. And then there is the tailless flight "tumbling" issue.
>
> I would like to try a concentrated effort to contact and mentor these guys for a few years and see if it is productive. It may be worthwhile to help both the general membership numbers and the contest participation numbers.
> Nick

Boating around in a jelly fish that can collapse in the slightest bit of rough air does not strike me as aviation. This is the stats for the USHPA magazine:

Reader Demographics
Total Magazine Circulation 8,951
Average Age 46
Average Salary $82,000
Gender Male 91.1%
Female 8.9%
College Graduates 72%
Married* 55%
Advanced Pilot Rating 3,268
Hang Glider Pilots 4,057
Paraglider Pilots 3,968
Both 926

[Ramy[_2_]]

I don't buy those stats. There are certainly more PG pilots than HG Pilots. There are more active PG pilots than active SP pilots.

Ramy

[HGXC[_2_]]

On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:37:55 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> I don't buy those stats. There are certainly more PG pilots than HG Pilots. There are more active PG pilots than active SP pilots.
>
> Ramy

They are from USHPA website

Show me your stats?

My issue is with the ahole who like to disrespect other people.

Dennis

[xcnick]

On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 7:01:51 PM UTC-7, HGXC wrote:

> Show me your stats?

I go to launch once in a while. It is rare I even see hang gliders any more. Launch was the place I always found a friendly face, but I don't know anyone now.

However there are many paragliders. One thing that always strikes me is how much money these guys have, at least compared my hang gliding crowd. I get a kick out of asking "what happens if the wind stops."

[HGXC[_2_]]

On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 10:01:51 PM UTC-4, HGXC wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:37:55 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> > I don't buy those stats. There are certainly more PG pilots than HG Pilots. There are more active PG pilots than active SP pilots.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> They are from USHPA website
>
> Show me your stats?
>
> My issue is with the ahole who likes to disrespect other people.
>
> Dennis

The poster I was referring to was the gotovkot guy who continually slurs older pilots in his posts....no reason to do that. As for HGing and PGing neither are growing at this time in the USA. The numbers have been flat for years. PGing is easier to initially learn and we have a younger generation that is attracted to easy. Flying a glider is many good things but to do it well is a process and NOT easy.

Dennis

[Soartech]

Ramy says there are way more PG than HG. Ramy, that is because you are on the west coast. In the east it is much more evenly divided with many sites that host more HG pilots. We have lots of cliff launches which are difficult for PG pilots.
Deane (former HG pilot for 35 years)

[HGXC[_2_]]

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 3:43:03 PM UTC-4, gotovkotzepkoi wrote:
> 'HGXC[_2_ Wrote:
> > ;891238']On Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:37:55 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:-
> > I don't buy those stats. There are certainly more PG pilots than HG
> > Pilots. There are more active PG pilots than active SP pilots.
> >
> > Ramy-
> >
> > They are from USHPA website
> >
> > Show me your stats?
> >
> > My issue is with the ahole who like to disrespect other people.
> >
> > Dennis
>
> Just curious, who are you referring to here? I also agree that the stats
> cannot be correct. If you have been to any PG/HG sites you will see that
> PGs vastly outnumber HGs these days. HGs are being swept into the black
> hole of history. A couple of days ago I asked a PG friend of mine what
> he thought of perhaps learning to fly SPs. He gave me the expected
> answer: far too much hassle, too much dependence on infrastructure and
> other people, too expensive, too much time required, the sport is full
> of geezers, no women in the sport, etc. The usual answers. I frankly
> think that it's a waste of time to try to recruit anyone at all. The
> people who come to SPs are those with a natural tendency to seek it out.
> There, I said it.
>
>
>
>
> --
> gotovkotzepkoi

Yep and you continue to be an ass about it. Call people disrespectful names, profiling entire groups as bib wearing geezers. And have you ever to been to wallaby ranch? Quest? Mt Ascutney VT? The numbers of PG and HG are close in the US. Another thing ...if you're looking to pick up women then go to a place to do that, fill out a online form telling them what a trilling cool guy you are, If you want to fly, be a competent pilot, fly long XC's compete in contests, share the air with likeminded people then do that and get dates somewhere else. I don't want to be in the air along a ridge with someone who is just in it for a lark and a trill. Go get a guitar and learn how to play ....you'll get more dates that way. LOL and every day that goes by pal you are turning into that guy you are disrespecting...ever think of THAT? idiot

Dennis

[John Carlyle]

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 4:48:15 PM UTC-4, HGXC wrote:
> And have you ever to been to wallaby ranch? Quest? Mt Ascutney VT? The numbers of PG and HG are close in the US.
>
> Dennis

You fly HGs off of Ascutney? Mucho respect to you, my friend! I've had the ever loving hell beat out of me in my LS8 simply flying close to that bad boy. The wave, when I found it though, was worth it...

-John, Q3

[HGXC[_2_]]

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 5:14:04 PM UTC-4, John Carlyle wrote:
> On Thursday, October 30, 2014 4:48:15 PM UTC-4, HGXC wrote:
> > And have you ever to been to wallaby ranch? Quest? Mt Ascutney VT? The numbers of PG and HG are close in the US.
> >
> > Dennis
>
> You fly HGs off of Ascutney? Mucho respect to you, my friend! I've had the ever loving hell beat out of me in my LS8 simply flying close to that bad boy. The wave, when I found it though, was worth it...
>
> -John, Q3

Thanks John, Yes I've been flying there for nearly 40 years and set a New England Hang Gliding XC record from there. 122.2 miles. I might have gone further if my freakin bib didn't get in the way LOL

Peace out,

Dennis

[[email protected]]

The response confirms the accusation of SPs being cranky old people. Bit I don't get is SPs have a limited capacity to grow anyway, one local club had a waiting list for new student members. I got tired of grinding around in the backseat and didn't do it for all that long. So why grow SPs? Sailplane flying runs on a handful of fanatics devoting massive amounts of time, energy, and money, as long as a few replacement fanatics filter in over the years everything will be OK.
As for HG/PG numbers I understand they are about equal in the US but worldwide PG pilots outnumber everybody by a huge margin. The total number of PG pilots worldwide estimated at >250,000. Lots of semi active PG pilots that only fly on a couple of holiday weeks a year and otherwise stay on the ground living normal mundane lives. PG allows that, and it works well for people.

[Mark628CA]

OK, I am tired of the HG/PG/SP is best, old people need to die, young people will save us, there are more of us than them, the sky is falling etc. etc..

I started HG in the early 70's and fell in love with it. I thought sailplanes were for old people that were just sitting on their asses wiggling their sticks. When PG finally came around, I thought they were kinda neat, but there was no way I was going to be lucky enough to survive the early days of a new aviation sport- I got through the Standard Rogallo days, but barely.

Finally, after logging over 2,500 HG hours through 28 years of HG, as well as a few knee operations and attending far too many funerals, I decided that, yes, I was too OLD to be subjecting myself to the risks of HG.

I took up sailplanes, and while I still miss the wild 'n woolly days of HG with some of the most fun people I had ever met, I discovered an entirely new world of soaring. The people were friendly and encouraging, the scope of an average day of XC flying far surpassed anything I had ever accomplished with a hang glider and I nearly always made it back to the home 'drome. And did I mention landing on a wheel instead of using my own little pink body as landing gear?

In the last 15 years of flying sailplanes, I have amassed far more airtime (1,900 hours) than I would have thought possible. I fly in conditions that would be difficult in a hang glider and impossible in a paraglider. I cherish the friendships I maintain with my HG and PG bros. and I am overjoyed when I see one of them join my "new" aviation family.

As far as the old vs. young, expensive vs. cheap yada yada, I think a real, dedicated soaring addicted pilot will find a way to continue flying. I did, and I am not rich, by any means. I figure I fly my 1984 40:1 glider for about $15 per hour, and I can do it more often than I could with my HG, and I don't have to replace every component on a regular basis as things wear out or become obsolete.

Don't denigrate old people- they have a lot to teach us, and if you are lucky enough, maybe you will live long enough to become one. Don't denigrate young people because they fly HG or PG- something lit their fire, and with luck, they will eventually make it to sailplanes.

In 1991, the SSA held its convention in Albuquerque and I was invited to display my hang glider (UP Axis 15) in the exhibit hall. I was talking to Ray Gimmey, and after we shook hands and he walked away, I overheard another pilot ask, "Ray, why are you wasting your time with bozos like that?"

I will never forget Ray's response: "When their knees wear out, they are going to save soaring."

Thanks, Ray. Ray won the 2014 US 15 M Nationals at age 81, and I bet he had tubes up his nose, too.

FY gotovkotzepkoi

[Nick Kennedy]

I'm was so happy to read Marks mighty fine synopsis bringing this thread full circle.

Can we Please end this thread now on a upbeat note?

Thanks in advance

Nick

[Dan Marotta]

Being retired and having spent nearly every day at the airport (towing,
flying my glider and my motor glider) for almost 5 years, I have the
following observation about the adventure crowd: They come to the
airport to take a ride, have a terrific time, and then disappear.
Another square filled. That is probably how I'm viewed at the jump
club. What a hoot, but not for me... The majority of folks with an
interest in soaring seem to have no difficulty in finding us and joining
in and they're almost always welcomed and nurtured.

Most of us have a friend or two who are intrigued by our sport. Simply
bringing them out for a ride on a good soaring day and showing them what
it's about will hook a fair number of them. Those are the kind of people
I want in the sport. Of course you have a right to your own opinion.

Dan Marotta

On 10/31/2014 7:39 AM, gotovkotzepkoi wrote:
> Mark628CA;891291 Wrote:
>> OK, I am tired of the HG/PG/SP is best, old people need to die, young
>> people will save us, there are more of us than them, the sky is falling
>> etc. etc..
>>
>> I started HG in the early 70's and fell in love with it. I thought
>> sailplanes were for old people that were just sitting on their asses
>> wiggling their sticks. When PG finally came around, I thought they were
>> kinda neat, but there was no way I was going to be lucky enough to
>> survive the early days of a new aviation sport- I got through the
>> Standard Rogallo days, but barely.
>>
>> Finally, after logging over 2,500 HG hours through 28 years of HG, as
>> well as a few knee operations and attending far too many funerals, I
>> decided that, yes, I was too OLD to be subjecting myself to the risks of
>> HG.
>>
>> I took up sailplanes, and while I still miss the wild 'n woolly days of
>> HG with some of the most fun people I had ever met, I discovered an
>> entirely new world of soaring. The people were friendly and encouraging,
>> the scope of an average day of XC flying far surpassed anything I had
>> ever accomplished with a hang glider and I nearly always made it back to
>> the home 'drome. And did I mention landing on a wheel instead of using
>> my own little pink body as landing gear?
>>
>> In the last 15 years of flying sailplanes, I have amassed far more
>> airtime (1,900 hours) than I would have thought possible. I fly in
>> conditions that would be difficult in a hang glider and impossible in a
>> paraglider. I cherish the friendships I maintain with my HG and PG bros.
>> and I am overjoyed when I see one of them join my "new" aviation
>> family.
>>
>> As far as the old vs. young, expensive vs. cheap yada yada, I think a
>> real, dedicated soaring addicted pilot will find a way to continue
>> flying. I did, and I am not rich, by any means. I figure I fly my 1984
>> 40:1 glider for about $15 per hour, and I can do it more often than I
>> could with my HG, and I don't have to replace every component on a
>> regular basis as things wear out or become obsolete.
>>
>> Don't denigrate old people- they have a lot to teach us, and if you are
>> lucky enough, maybe you will live long enough to become one. Don't
>> denigrate young people because they fly HG or PG- something lit their
>> fire, and with luck, they will eventually make it to sailplanes.
>>
>> In 1991, the SSA held its convention in Albuquerque and I was invited to
>> display my hang glider (UP Axis 15) in the exhibit hall. I was talking
>> to Ray Gimmey, and after we shook hands and he walked away, I overheard
>> another pilot ask, "Ray, why are you wasting your time with bozos like
>> that?"
>>
>> I will never forget Ray's response: "When their knees wear out, they are
>> going to save soaring."
>>
>> Thanks, Ray. Ray won the 2014 US 15 M Nationals at age 81, and I bet he
>> had tubes up his nose, too.
>>
>> FY gotovkotzepkoi
> I have nothing against older people. Hell, I am becoming one myself. I
> like being around people my age. The debate here is not about who is
> better, old or young. The discussion started rather as a question on how
> to attract HG pilots to soaring. Therefore, the question was about
> marketing the sport to them. Now, assuming one wants to market it at all
> (big question mark here) one is faced with the issue of how soaring is
> perceived by those you're tying to lure into it. My point was simply to
> point how how THEY look at soaring, not how I see it. Having been around
> both sports for a while I am very familiar with their perceptions and
> potential interest in soaring. Largely because of these perception very
> few HG/PGing pilots will make the jump; the vast majority won't. I am
> perfectly comfortable with the demographic scene in the glider world. I
> don't need to pick up women at the glider field. I have a beautiful wife
> many years younger than me. And besides, I don't need another
> distraction from the checklist.
>
>
>
>