How to determine if your ASG29 has the large or small panel?

[Sean Fidler]

I just learned that there are (apparently) two panel sizes available in a 29? Large and normal (or small).

1) How does one determine which one is in a given glider (without being able to easily compare it to another)? Are there dimensions or is there a simple test?

2) Can you change between the two panel sizes easily? If you have a small can you change to the large and vice-versa?

Thanks in advance...

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Monday, November 17, 2014 12:45:23 PM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I just learned that there are (apparently) two panel sizes available in a 29? Large and normal (or small).
>
> 1) How does one determine which one is in a given glider (without being able to easily compare it to another)? Are there dimensions or is there a simple test?

Look at this drawing (below) and compare to what you have. The small panel has taller leg cutouts - I believe these are not widely deployed so it it most likely you have the bigger panel.

http://www.alexander-schleicher.de/service/iev/270%20ib%20001.pdf

>
> 2) Can you change between the two panel sizes easily? If you have a small can you change to the large and vice-versa?

You'd need to replace the entire panel pedestal that the canopy attached to.. I'm not sure if this leads to having to refit the canopy - seems like a possibility. I've not heard of it being done, but anything is possible with enough shop hours and composite material.

9B
>
> Thanks in advance...

[Sean Fidler]

Thanks. I think I have the big one, phew!

[Sean Fidler]

On second thought, it appears that I have the smaller one :-(.

https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A25yeZFhZI0sn

[[email protected]]

On Monday, November 17, 2014 5:32:46 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> On second thought, it appears that I have the smaller one :-(.
>
> https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A25yeZFhZI0sn

You do have the small one.
Panel change requires changing the lower enclosure also, best done by procuring the entire assembly including the pivot arm assembly. It does not affect the canopy with the exception that it takes a good bit of time to install the pivot arm assembly so that the canopy fits correctly.
Been there- done that.
UH

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Monday, November 17, 2014 4:03:58 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Monday, November 17, 2014 5:32:46 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > On second thought, it appears that I have the smaller one :-(.
> >
> > https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A25yeZFhZI0sn
>
> You do have the small one.
> Panel change requires changing the lower enclosure also, best done by procuring the entire assembly including the pivot arm assembly. It does not affect the canopy with the exception that it takes a good bit of time to install the pivot arm assembly so that the canopy fits correctly.
> Been there- done that.
> UH

Just be aware that with the new panel if you scare the crap out of yourself you will no longer be able to assume a fetal position.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Monday, November 17, 2014 5:32:46 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> On second thought, it appears that I have the smaller one :-(.
>
> https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A25yeZFhZI0sn

It looks like you have room to grow :)

[Sean Fidler]

Thanks all. To be honest, I do like being able to get at my feet if necessary. I think I'm staying with the current panel (fixed up) SN10/Oudie and adding the 57mm Flarm View. Anybody want to buy the FlarmView (see picture) for $200? That's $80 off new. Free shipping! I just bought this in June 2014. PM me. http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/lxnav.htm#LXNAV-FlarmView

[Richard[_9_]]

On Monday, November 17, 2014 4:54:37 PM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Thanks all. To be honest, I do like being able to get at my feet if necessary. I think I'm staying with the current panel (fixed up) SN10/Oudie and adding the 57mm Flarm View. Anybody want to buy the FlarmView (see picture) for $200? That's $80 off new. Free shipping! I just bought this in June 2014. PM me. http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/lxnav.htm#LXNAV-FlarmView

FlarmView 57 is available at Craggy Aero for quite a bit less.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Sean Fidler]

I noticed that today Richard ;-). Thanks.

The FlarmView is a great unit BTW. I just happen to have a spare 57mm slot.

[Pierre Vav]

I prefer a regular flarm repeater at the top of the Panel.
But you have to answer the question : which of the instruments is the best on the Oudie : SN/10 or Flarm ?

[Sean Fidler]

I have a PowerFlarm Brick which connects to the SN10, then the SN10 sends NMEA to the Oudie. This all works very nicely but I don't like the way the Oudie displays close in Flarm warnings (essentially it doesn't). I simply see the Flarm targets on the map view. The Oudie does not jump to a Flarm collision screen when a warning is announced. I prefer the simple warning interface of the Flarm displays (balls at the "o'clocks"). Perhaps I have the Oudie set up incorrectly? Maybe I can get Dave Nadler to add a Flarm warning page to the SN10 ;-)? The FlarmView works well (ball at o'clocks warning view) although I would personally prefer to have a display that is neatly and cleanly installed in the open 57mm slot. Perhaps you have a good point on the right placement being on the top of the panel. That would also give me room for something else. It would be easy to place an L bracket on the top of the panel to mount it. Thanks.

[Sean Fidler]

$350 at Cumulus vs $302 at Craggy Aero. Hard to argue with that price Richard. Thanks!

[Dave Nadler]

On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 8:59:18 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> ...Maybe I can get Dave Nadler to add a Flarm warning page to the SN10 ;-)?

Um, that's been in the SN10 for many years.
Enable it on the bottom left of the "SN10 Options 2" page...

Anyway, it's nicer to have a tiny dedicated display
up high on the panel. I use the Butterfly mounted on
the brow of my instrument panel shroud.

Hope that helps,
See ya, Dave

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 8:59:18 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> I have a PowerFlarm Brick which connects to the SN10, then the SN10 sends NMEA to the Oudie. This all works very nicely but I don't like the way the Oudie displays close in Flarm warnings (essentially it doesn't). I simply see the Flarm targets on the map view. The Oudie does not jump to a Flarm collision screen when a warning is announced. I prefer the simple warning interface of the Flarm displays (balls at the "o'clocks"). Perhaps I have the Oudie set up incorrectly? Maybe I can get Dave Nadler to add a Flarm warning page to the SN10 ;-)? The FlarmView works well (ball at o'clocks warning view) although I would personally prefer to have a display that is neatly and cleanly installed in the open 57mm slot. Perhaps you have a good point on the right placement being on the top of the panel. That would also give me room for something else. It would be easy to place an L bracket on the top of the panel to mount it. Thanks.

I like ClearNav's "traffic 2 o'clock high" audio output. No look down at alarm, interpret, then look. Just listen and look. You aren't looking down to figure it out just when you need to find the target.
I don't know how many other have this, but to me, this is the way it should work.
FWIW
UH

[Luke Szczepaniak]

> I like ClearNav's "traffic 2 o'clock high" audio output. No look down at alarm, interpret, then look. Just listen and look. You aren't looking down to figure it out just when you need to find the target.
> I don't know how many other have this, but to me, this is the way it should work.
> FWIW
> UH
>
V7 has this feature also - highly recommended

[Richard[_9_]]

Yes it really is a good feature.

I think SeeYouMobile and LXNAV were the first the have the feature.

All the LXNAV Flight computers and all the Craggy Aero Ultimates and Ultimate Le have the feature.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Sean Fidler]

UH,

I agree, FLARM warning speech synthesis is exactly how warnings should be communicated to the pilots. The idea of a display is fundementally flawed. The process of 1) hear warning, 2) glance in to the display, 3) interpret the warning then 4) look out and 5) find the traffic and 6) avoid the traffic (if necessary) is a 3+ second process at best. A quick clear audible warning (Traffic 1 o'clock, level) might save a second or more. I'm surprised speech synthesis of FLARM WARNINGS are not highlighted more distinctly in the product descriptions. I was honestly unaware of it. To be frank and honest, I can't think of a more important function in the glider (especially while flying with other a good number of other gliders and towplanes, etc) than very fast and very accurate FLARM collision warnings. All the other "stuff" in our gliders are just nice to have when compared to FLARM.

But this means replacing my SN-10. Maybe I can get Dave Nadler to add speech synthesis FLARM warnings to the SN-10 ;-)! Just kidding Dave!

Thanks again all.

Sean

On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 9:54:31 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 8:59:18 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > I have a PowerFlarm Brick which connects to the SN10, then the SN10 sends NMEA to the Oudie. This all works very nicely but I don't like the way the Oudie displays close in Flarm warnings (essentially it doesn't). I simply see the Flarm targets on the map view. The Oudie does not jump to a Flarm collision screen when a warning is announced. I prefer the simple warning interface of the Flarm displays (balls at the "o'clocks"). Perhaps I have the Oudie set up incorrectly? Maybe I can get Dave Nadler to add a Flarm warning page to the SN10 ;-)? The FlarmView works well (ball at o'clocks warning view) although I would personally prefer to have a display that is neatly and cleanly installed in the open 57mm slot. Perhaps you have a good point on the right placement being on the top of the panel. That would also give me room for something else. It would be easy to place an L bracket on the top of the panel to mount it. Thanks.
>
> I like ClearNav's "traffic 2 o'clock high" audio output. No look down at alarm, interpret, then look. Just listen and look. You aren't looking down to figure it out just when you need to find the target.
> I don't know how many other have this, but to me, this is the way it should work.
> FWIW
> UH

[John Galloway[_1_]]

Do you really waste time looking at and interpreting the display first -
before you look out ahead?

At 18:32 18 November 2014, Sean Fidler wrote:
>UH,
>=20
>I agree, FLARM warning speech synthesis is exactly how warnings
should be
>c=
>ommunicated to the pilots. The idea of a display is fundementally
flawed.
>=
>The process of 1) hear warning, 2) glance in to the display, 3)
interpret
>t=
>he warning then 4) look out and 5) find the traffic and 6) avoid the
>traffi=
>c (if necessary) is a 3+ second process at best. A quick clear audible
>war=
>ning (Traffic 1 o'clock, level) might save a second or more. I'm
>surprised=
> speech synthesis of FLARM WARNINGS are not highlighted more
distinctly in
>=
>the product descriptions. I was honestly unaware of it. To be frank
and
>h=
>onest, I can't think of a more important function in the glider
>(especially=
> while flying with other a good number of other gliders and towplanes,
>etc)=
> than very fast and very accurate FLARM collision warnings. All the
other
>=
>"stuff" in our gliders are just nice to have when compared to FLARM.
>
>But this means replacing my SN-10. Maybe I can get Dave Nadler to
add
>spee=
>ch synthesis FLARM warnings to the SN-10 ;-)! Just kidding Dave!
>
>Thanks again all.
>
>Sean
>
>On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 9:54:31 AM UTC-5,

>wrote=
>:
>> On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 8:59:18 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler
wrote:
>> > I have a PowerFlarm Brick which connects to the SN10, then the
SN10
>sen=
>ds NMEA to the Oudie. This all works very nicely but I don't like the
way
>=
>the Oudie displays close in Flarm warnings (essentially it doesn't). I
>sim=
>ply see the Flarm targets on the map view. The Oudie does not jump
to a
>Fl=
>arm collision screen when a warning is announced. I prefer the
simple
>warn=
>ing interface of the Flarm displays (balls at the "o'clocks"). Perhaps I
>h=
>ave the Oudie set up incorrectly? Maybe I can get Dave Nadler to add
a
>Fla=
>rm warning page to the SN10 ;-)? The FlarmView works well (ball at
>o'clock=
>s warning view) although I would personally prefer to have a display
that
>i=
>s neatly and cleanly installed in the open 57mm slot. Perhaps you
have a
>g=
>ood point on the right placement being on the top of the panel. That
>would=
> also give me room for something else. It would be easy to place an L
>brac=
>ket on the top of the panel to mount it. Thanks.
>>=20
>> I like ClearNav's "traffic 2 o'clock high" audio output. No look down
at
>=
>alarm, interpret, then look. Just listen and look. You aren't looking
down
>=
>to figure it out just when you need to find the target.=20
>> I don't know how many other have this, but to me, this is the way it
>shou=
>ld work.
>> FWIW
>> UH
>

[Dave Nadler]

On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 9:54:31 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> I like ClearNav's "traffic 2 o'clock high" audio output.
> No look down at alarm, interpret, then look. Just listen and look.
> You aren't looking down to figure it out just when you need
> to find the target. I don't know how many other have this,
> but to me, this is the way it should work.
> FWIW
> UH

There are many, many downstream products (hardware and software) which
produce FLARM voice warnings. Triadis had one at least 5 years ago;
don't know if anyone in USA stocks this:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.triadis.ch%2Findex.php%3Ftr-dvs&edit-text=

[Sean Fidler]

Interesting thought. I would hope that others would comment as well but for me, YES.

I do waste(?) time (a quick glance) to look at and interpret the display first before looking out. For me, the "o"clock display is easy to understand from a glance. It gives me situational awareness without alot of mental processing power required. I completely understand what you are saying. Its a worthwhile point to make. Is it worth the glance?

Remember that I am trying to spend 90% + of the time (probably more like 98%) with my eyes out scanning for traffic and watching the clues develop around me (both nearby and far away). I always have a very good idea (I hope) of what is going on around me. If I hear a beep when I didn't think any gliders were around, I know there is potentially a big problem! That is the key.

With that, imagine you are flying along, unaware that another glider is around. Suddenly you get a FLARM collision warning "beep." Without looking at the Flarm display immediately, you have absolutely no idea where that warning is located. Perhaps only 10 seconds may be left before a potential collision. The threat could be coming from behind, below or directly above. It could be "head on" or from the side (either level, up or down). The only way you have any actionable intelligence with Flarm is to immediately empower yourself with the information that the Flarm is trying to communicate to you (and the other Flarm equipped pilot) "directionally" (unless you have a synthesized voice say it to you!). If you wait 5 seconds (say you can't ID any traffic), then look in to see the Flarm display directional info, the danger of that situation is now much higher.

So, if you are suggesting simply looking ahead upon hearing the Flarm audio warning in an effort to rule out the most dangerous situation for an unknown, unseen potential collision, I'm not sure I can agree that that would be the best technique.

Another "fatal" mistake I have experienced while using Flarm is to mistakenly "assume" the traffic you know about (already see) is the traffic the warning is for. I have experienced this. An instance where I have assumed the traffic at the "x" O clock is the Flarm equipped traffic the warning was for, only to realize seconds later than another, unknown glider was the collision warning. A scary, scary adrenaline fueled moment for sure. This is the danger of having many gliders flying together and only having "some" equipped with flarm.

I treat the Flarm as a "cherry on top" of a constant, nervous traffic scan. It is a system that may point out a collision that I would otherwise have not realized was coming.

As a motorcycle rider/racer in my youth, I learned to never (ever) trust any traffic or any seemingly innocent traffic situation. I basically assumed that all other drivers are going to do the exact worst thing (at the worst possible moment). I assumed that in any blind spot (say around a blind corner at a green light intersection) is a out of control semi truck going 90 mph. With motorcycles, I ultimately learned that driving on public roads is simply not worth the risk. Then I took up soaring ;-)...

Soaring is much the same thing for me as motorcycles. Flying in large groups (around airports after launch for example) is a highly unpredictable situation. I assume that everyone is unaware and going to make the turn or maneuver that makes my situation worse. I try to never be in a position where I have to fully trust the other pilot. This takes alot of discipline. The Flarm is only there to give me extra hints, above and beyond my own extreme caution. I never assume the Flarm is going to work at all. But when it does beep loudly, I quickly add what it is trying to tell me to my information bank and confirm it quickly as it "usually" provides very valuable information.

As I understand it, Flarm (generally) first warns its pilot of potential collision 10-15 seconds out. If you wait too long to confirm what its trying to tell you directionally (and don't ID the right traffic in the meantime), its value will have fallen to near zero. Yes, I know Flarm will keep beeping more aggressively as the collision gets more likely but that second beep might be 5 seconds from the first... I say take and glance early and use that information to your advantage while you still can.

Sean


On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 3:15:16 PM UTC-5, John Galloway wrote:
> Do you really waste time looking at and interpreting the display first -
> before you look out ahead?
>
> At 18:32 18 November 2014, Sean Fidler wrote:
> >UH,
> >=20
> >I agree, FLARM warning speech synthesis is exactly how warnings
> should be
> >c=
> >ommunicated to the pilots. The idea of a display is fundementally
> flawed.
> >=
> >The process of 1) hear warning, 2) glance in to the display, 3)
> interpret
> >t=
> >he warning then 4) look out and 5) find the traffic and 6) avoid the
> >traffi=
> >c (if necessary) is a 3+ second process at best. A quick clear audible
> >war=
> >ning (Traffic 1 o'clock, level) might save a second or more. I'm
> >surprised=
> > speech synthesis of FLARM WARNINGS are not highlighted more
> distinctly in
> >=
> >the product descriptions. I was honestly unaware of it. To be frank
> and
> >h=
> >onest, I can't think of a more important function in the glider
> >(especially=
> > while flying with other a good number of other gliders and towplanes,
> >etc)=
> > than very fast and very accurate FLARM collision warnings. All the
> other
> >=
> >"stuff" in our gliders are just nice to have when compared to FLARM.
> >
> >But this means replacing my SN-10. Maybe I can get Dave Nadler to
> add
> >spee=
> >ch synthesis FLARM warnings to the SN-10 ;-)! Just kidding Dave!
> >
> >Thanks again all.
> >
> >Sean
> >
> >On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 9:54:31 AM UTC-5,
>
> >wrote=
> >:
> >> On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 8:59:18 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler
> wrote:
> >> > I have a PowerFlarm Brick which connects to the SN10, then the
> SN10
> >sen=
> >ds NMEA to the Oudie. This all works very nicely but I don't like the
> way
> >=
> >the Oudie displays close in Flarm warnings (essentially it doesn't). I
> >sim=
> >ply see the Flarm targets on the map view. The Oudie does not jump
> to a
> >Fl=
> >arm collision screen when a warning is announced. I prefer the
> simple
> >warn=
> >ing interface of the Flarm displays (balls at the "o'clocks"). Perhaps I
> >h=
> >ave the Oudie set up incorrectly? Maybe I can get Dave Nadler to add
> a
> >Fla=
> >rm warning page to the SN10 ;-)? The FlarmView works well (ball at
> >o'clock=
> >s warning view) although I would personally prefer to have a display
> that
> >i=
> >s neatly and cleanly installed in the open 57mm slot. Perhaps you
> have a
> >g=
> >ood point on the right placement being on the top of the panel. That
> >would=
> > also give me room for something else. It would be easy to place an L
> >brac=
> >ket on the top of the panel to mount it. Thanks.
> >>=20
> >> I like ClearNav's "traffic 2 o'clock high" audio output. No look down
> at
> >=
> >alarm, interpret, then look. Just listen and look. You aren't looking
> down
> >=
> >to figure it out just when you need to find the target.=20
> >> I don't know how many other have this, but to me, this is the way it
> >shou=
> >ld work.
> >> FWIW
> >> UH
> >

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

Sean, one thought. If you do nothing (except, of course, look) as the unit progresses up the alerting scale, it is telling you it is increasingly likely that you WILL collide (your current speed and altitude are partly causing it; since you can't the sure the other lady or gentleman will change, you should (IMHO) (you both should, hopefully using the rules of the road as a guide)). If I can't quickly pick up the target, I aggressively maneuver to avoid it (generally by changing altitude; if it's higher, I dive, if lower, I pull up, energy permitting). If on the ridge, it becomes more interesting...

I am aware that the OSTIV Training and Safety Panel (TSP) is working on recommended actions on receipt of flarm alerts, and multiple versions have been proposed (I've seen 3)... but, there isn't agreement on final text, as far as I know.

Finally, the warnings - from the latest PF manual (3.40):
"FLARM-warnings are issued in accordance with the time remaining to a possible collision, not the geometric distance between the aircraft. The first warning is typically issued between 19 and 25 seconds in advance to the calculated possible collision with aircraft or obstacle (time to impact); the second is issued 14 to 18 seconds in advance, and the third 6 to 8 seconds in advance. Warnings are sustained as long as the threat remains as calculated. Depending upon the prediction, the threat may be downgraded or deleted. Warnings are selective, i.e. they are only issued if the calculation detects a high probability of a collision in the immediate future." page 5 of manual.

2D

[Sean Fidler]

Makes perfect sense to me. Good stuff.

[[email protected]]

I have a Flarm Core, C302, and Oudie running SeeYou Mobile.
SeeYou on the Oudie gives me an audio warning (beeps) and a large red banner warning me of a potential collision. Everything is selectable in the software.

Perhaps you should consider some trouble shooting with Paul Remde. He was very patient with me in sorting out my Flarm/SeeYou issues.

[Sean Fidler]

Thanks. I remember (now) that Oudie has an audible flarm warning "announcement" but I also remember that I found it hard to understand. The speaker on the Oudie was not the best. At least on my Oudie. Depending on the situation, the cockpit can be very loud with the vario chirping away, wind noise, radio activity, etc. Maybe I need a hearing check.

I know that Oudie does provide good basic FLARM data on the map section of each screen (FLARM RADAR). This works quite well. However, when a collison warning occurs, I believe the banner on the screen shows some useless text like "Warning - traffic 2 O'clock, above" and a spoken warning occurs (that I find hard to understand) if you have the warning turned on. If I remember correctly, the Oudie display itself does not present the directional warning screen like a tradition Flarm does. That is what I really want (see pic below). Audio is only good for me if I can comfortably and very reliably hear it.

pic of screen -> http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/flarm/PowerFlarmDirectionalWarningScreen.jpg

This is why I bought the FlarmView in the first place (for the directional warning screen).

I just looked at the Oudie manual (http://download.naviter.com/oudie/Oudie.pdf). Here is what I found:

3.9 Flarm Radar
...."SeeYou Mobile is able to read the output from Flarm devices and present a radar-like system which displays other Flarms with correct visibility/privacy settings in vicinity. Flarms that have privacy enabled are hidden."

8.9 Warnings
There is three types of warnings in SeeYou Mobile
1. Airspace warnings 2. Altitude warnings 3. Flarm warnings...
....Flarm warning is special in that it "reads" the information from the Flarm device and then uses voice

Thats it. Nothing is stated and no diagram showing what/if the actual Oudie flarm collision warning screen looks like.

Do you think there is a visual directional warning screen that shows the direction and altitude of the threat on the Oudie display when a warning occurs? If not, I think the boys and girls at Naviteer should consider adding it!

[[email protected]]

SeeYou gives a loud distinct beep beep beep and displays a red banner at the top of the screen.
The target aircraft symbol turns red.
The screen does not change to some simplified, high magnification display that focuses on the target aircraft.
I find it attention getting and easy to understand.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, November 17, 2014 7:54:37 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Thanks all. To be honest, I do like being able to get at my feet if necessary. I think I'm staying with the current panel (fixed up) SN10/Oudie and adding the 57mm Flarm View. Anybody want to buy the FlarmView (see picture) for $200? That's $80 off new. Free shipping! I just bought this in June 2014. PM me. http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/lxnav.htm#LXNAV-FlarmView

Do you still want to sell the FlarmView?

[Sean Fidler]

For me, it would be very difficult to look at the small Oudie screen and pick out the red glider symbol, especially if zoomed out to the typical 20-30 miles. Double especially if a portion of the screen real estate is covered by a red warning banner. I remember, this spring and after playing with it, coming to the conclusion to to buy another display. Ill take another look for sure.

Does anybody have a photo or video of how the Oudie does the Flarm warning? The audio would be great too.

Sean

[[email protected]]

I think an example of the Flarm display is in the Oudie/SeeYou manual.

[Sean Fidler]

On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 8:58:51 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I think an example of the Flarm display is in the Oudie/SeeYou manual.

Here are some screenshots of Oudie's flarm radar & warning.

https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A259UlCqlVMHl

I still think the Oudie farm warning leaves much to be desired, but its all about personal preference. You can see in the photo's that you have to read text and numbers to determine if the traffic is level, up or down. I don't see a red glider in this photo. Depending on which view your in, understanding the relative position of the "red glider" might become confusing (North up, heading, track, portrait or landscape, etc).

https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A259UlCqlVMHl

[Richard[_9_]]

On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:54:44 PM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 8:58:51 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > I think an example of the Flarm display is in the Oudie/SeeYou manual.
>
> Here are some screenshots of Oudie's flarm radar & warning.
>
> https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A259UlCqlVMHl
>
> I still think the Oudie farm warning leaves much to be desired, but its all about personal preference. You can see in the photo's that you have to read text and numbers to determine if the traffic is level, up or down. I don't see a red glider in this photo. Depending on which view your in, understanding the relative position of the "red glider" might become confusing (North up, heading, track, portrait or landscape, etc).
>
> https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A259UlCqlVMHl

Sean,

I don't fly with an Oudie but with a PowerFlarm -V7- Ultimate Le system so my screen is larger and more viewable. I get warning indications on the Ultimate Le and for close in collision warning on the Ultmate Le & V7.

Maybe the visual warning does leave something to be desired but it is also accompanied by the voice warning from the lady giving clock position and above or below feet. I believe the red traffic in picture 2 was 2.36km/1.5nm out and your SeeYou zoom level did not allow it to be seen. I call that an informational warning. The clock position will be shown relative to your glider in what ever screen orientation you have set.


Flarm tarffic can be set to zoom level of the screen. I have mine set to always so the traffic is always seen in every zoom level if it is with in that zoom level. If you are zoomed in to 1 mile you will not see the red traffic on the screen at 1.5 miles,(off the screen) but will still get the lady warning. I see flarm traffic 4 to 6 nautical miles out and really never get warnings that I am not aware of.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Pierre Vav]

We now have two usages of Flarm
- immediat warning : beep (or voice) + visual. Much better if visual is already where your eyes are.
- long time warning, other gliders watching, vario fun. This can be done by an "indoor" instrument, low in the panel, or the pda.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 4:22:03 PM UTC+1, Richard wrote:
> Yes it really is a good feature.
>
> I think SeeYouMobile and LXNAV were the first the have the feature.
>
> All the LXNAV Flight computers and all the Craggy Aero Ultimates and Ultimate Le have the feature.
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Triadis was the first, the TR-DVS had voice Flarm warnings since 2005 (9 years ago). It is still much better than the LXNAV and other voice warnings.

Ueli

[waremark]

I have an LX9000 (superb instrument) and a Butterfly display. Both display Flarm info in various ways and the LX9000 also has a voice module. Occasionally the voice info is useful. However, the software does not seem to make a good job of deciding when to give a voice warning, and the voice process is too slow for a real threat. On the other hand the warning tone from the Butterfly is used much less often and only when it detects an imminent threat. I think it takes a fraction of a second to take in with peripheral vision the clock face display indicating the direction of the threat, almost simultaneously scanning outside the cockpit. Other than for immediate threats I like a radar display to show me how far away a contact is regardless of the scale set on my moving map. I would choose to have a Butterfly display or Flarmview rather than relying solely on SeeYou Mobile or LK8000.

[Sean Fidler]

Good stuff Richard, thanks!

On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 11:14:48 PM UTC-5, Richard wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:54:44 PM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 18, 2014 8:58:51 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > I think an example of the Flarm display is in the Oudie/SeeYou manual..
> >
> > Here are some screenshots of Oudie's flarm radar & warning.
> >
> > https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A259UlCqlVMHl
> >
> > I still think the Oudie farm warning leaves much to be desired, but its all about personal preference. You can see in the photo's that you have to read text and numbers to determine if the traffic is level, up or down. I don't see a red glider in this photo. Depending on which view your in, understanding the relative position of the "red glider" might become confusing (North up, heading, track, portrait or landscape, etc).
> >
> > https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A259UlCqlVMHl
>
> Sean,
>
> I don't fly with an Oudie but with a PowerFlarm -V7- Ultimate Le system so my screen is larger and more viewable. I get warning indications on the Ultimate Le and for close in collision warning on the Ultmate Le & V7.
>
> Maybe the visual warning does leave something to be desired but it is also accompanied by the voice warning from the lady giving clock position and above or below feet. I believe the red traffic in picture 2 was 2.36km/1.5nm out and your SeeYou zoom level did not allow it to be seen. I call that an informational warning. The clock position will be shown relative to your glider in what ever screen orientation you have set.
>
>
> Flarm tarffic can be set to zoom level of the screen. I have mine set to always so the traffic is always seen in every zoom level if it is with in that zoom level. If you are zoomed in to 1 mile you will not see the red traffic on the screen at 1.5 miles,(off the screen) but will still get the lady warning. I see flarm traffic 4 to 6 nautical miles out and really never get warnings that I am not aware of.
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

[Sean Fidler]

On Wednesday, November 19, 2014 3:46:08 AM UTC-5, Pierre Vav wrote:
> We now have two usages of Flarm
> - immediat warning : beep (or voice) + visual. Much better if visual is already where your eyes are.
> - long time warning, other gliders watching, vario fun. This can be done by an "indoor" instrument, low in the panel, or the pda.

Thanks Pierre.

[Dave Nadler]

On Wednesday, November 19, 2014 10:54:34 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
> ...the voice process is too slow for a real threat.
> ...I think it takes a fraction of a second to take in with
> peripheral vision the clock face display indicating the direction
> of the threat, almost simultaneously scanning outside the cockpit.

Right - Voice is not the fastest. It takes a while for the message,
and it can get lost (for example if you're receiving a radio message).

The fastest is a large simple graphical "pointer" in your field
of vision, accompanied by a warning alarm. A visual presentation
is less effective when:
- its not already in your field of vision (turning head takes lots of time)
- poor contrast
- a complicated/busy/fussy display cannot be comprehended instantaneously
- buried low on the panel

Voice helps in the above situations...

Here's the SN10 presentation (4 O'clock high):
http://www.nadler.com/sn10/FLARMcol.png
We also changed the Butterfly presentation from the original to
make comprehension instantaneous...

Hope that helps frame the problem!
Best Regards, Dave

PS: We built many voice applications (phone), some quite notorious ;-)
Time for user to comprehend and use is always an issue.
Think about various annoying automated phone services you've used.

[[email protected]]

The problem is also how the voice function is implemented in the LX. The TR-DVS is much faster and very optimized to its only purpose, and it's decision when to alarm the pilot is much more reliable. However as always there are probably different opinions...