Camloc Installation Tools

[jls]

Anybody ever made any of these? The pliers would be easy to make. The
drill jig is $475, the dimpling tools about $300 apiece, and the lockwasher
tool $100. Anybody ever make any of these, or are they patented? If they
are patented, maybe that explains the exorbitant prices.

I made and regularly use tools for installing dzus buttons and their
receptacles. I use them on my airplane. Does that make me a felon?

[JDupre5762]

>I made and regularly use tools for installing dzus buttons and their
>receptacles. I use them on my airplane. Does that make me a felon?

I would think only if you were trying to sell the tools commercially. Anyway
go ahead and make them. I won't tell.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On 03 May 2004 00:41:22 GMT, (JDupre5762) wrote:

>>I made and regularly use tools for installing dzus buttons and their
>>receptacles. I use them on my airplane. Does that make me a felon?
>
>I would think only if you were trying to sell the tools commercially. Anyway
>go ahead and make them. I won't tell.

Wouldn't make him a felon, in any case. The worst he'd be doing is
violating a patent, which is a civil case.

Ron Wanttaja

[Dillon Pyron]

On Mon, 03 May 2004 00:45:51 GMT, Ron Wanttaja >
wrote:

>On 03 May 2004 00:41:22 GMT, (JDupre5762) wrote:
>
>>>I made and regularly use tools for installing dzus buttons and their
>>>receptacles. I use them on my airplane. Does that make me a felon?
>>
>>I would think only if you were trying to sell the tools commercially. Anyway
>>go ahead and make them. I won't tell.
>
>Wouldn't make him a felon, in any case. The worst he'd be doing is
>violating a patent, which is a civil case.
>
>Ron Wanttaja

You can reproduce any patented item for your own personal use. If
it's used commercially (a tool) or sold, then you're just waiting to
be served.
--
dillon

When I was a kid, I thought the angel's name was Hark
and the horse's name was Bob.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Mon, 03 May 2004 02:02:22 GMT, Dillon Pyron
> wrote:

>On Mon, 03 May 2004 00:45:51 GMT, Ron Wanttaja >
>wrote:

>>Wouldn't make him a felon, in any case. The worst he'd be doing is
>>violating a patent, which is a civil case.
>
>You can reproduce any patented item for your own personal use. If
>it's used commercially (a tool) or sold, then you're just waiting to
>be served.

I believe you are incorrect. The owner of a patent has the *exclusive*
right to make the item. See:

http://www.lawmart.com/difference.htm

If an item is copyrighted, on the other hand, you generally can reproduce
it for private use under the 'Fair Use' provisions of the law.

Ron Wanttaja

[Ernest Christley]

Ron Wanttaja wrote:
> On Mon, 03 May 2004 02:02:22 GMT, Dillon Pyron
> > wrote:
>
>
>>On Mon, 03 May 2004 00:45:51 GMT, Ron Wanttaja >
>>wrote:
>
>
>>>Wouldn't make him a felon, in any case. The worst he'd be doing is
>>>violating a patent, which is a civil case.
>>
>>You can reproduce any patented item for your own personal use. If
>>it's used commercially (a tool) or sold, then you're just waiting to
>>be served.
>
>
> I believe you are incorrect. The owner of a patent has the *exclusive*
> right to make the item. See:
>
> http://www.lawmart.com/difference.htm
>
> If an item is copyrighted, on the other hand, you generally can reproduce
> it for private use under the 'Fair Use' provisions of the law.
>
> Ron Wanttaja

You are quite correct, but theory and reality quickly diverge (as
usual). If you build the tool, the owner of the copyright has the basis
for a lawsuit, but the amount of damages the owner can hope to collect
is limited to the financial damages recieved as a result of you using
your own creation instead of theirs. Unless you've set up shop to sell
quite a few of these, it wouldn't be worth the lawsuits application fee 8*)

That is probably the reason that the myth of 'you can make it as long as
your not selling it' has so much staying power. Because for all
'practical' purposes, it's true.

On another note. DZUS fasteners are pretty old. Is the patent still in
effect. Patents only last 20yrs in most cases.

--
http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org/
"Ignorance is mankinds normal state,
alleviated by information and experience."
Veeduber

[jls]

"Ernest Christley" > wrote in message
. com...
[...]
> On another note. DZUS fasteners are pretty old. Is the patent still in
> effect. Patents only last 20yrs in most cases.

I kinda doubt the tools I made for installing Dzus buttons would be a cause
of action even if the patent were still alive. The tools for installing
the grummets and the receptacules are fairly simple. Futhahmoah, I doubt
the tools one would make to install camlocs or southco fasteners would
violate any patent unless you exactly copied THEIR tools. And even then
I'm still skeptickle. Geezus, Youseff et Maria, the silly little drill
jig for installing the camloc receptacles is priced at $475 in ACS. It's
practically the same thing as a drill jig for anchor nuts and I know goddamn
well those are not patented. Uncle Sam, do you have a patent on those?

If zoozes are not in the public domain I'm a monkey's uncle. Matter of
fact you can buy them at auto speed shops and they don't even call them
zoozes.
>
> --
> http://www.ernestisasweetie.org/
> "Ignorance is mankinds normal state,
> alleviated by information and experience."
> Veeduber

[L.D.]

jls wrote:

>"Ernest Christley" > wrote in message
. com...
> [...]
>
>
>>On another note. DZUS fasteners are pretty old. Is the patent still in
>>effect. Patents only last 20yrs in most cases.
>>
>>
>
>I kinda doubt the tools I made for installing Dzus buttons would be a cause
>of action even if the patent were still alive. The tools for installing
>the grummets and the receptacules are fairly simple. Futhahmoah, I doubt
>the tools one would make to install camlocs or southco fasteners would
>violate any patent unless you exactly copied THEIR tools. And even then
>I'm still skeptickle. Geezus, Youseff et Maria, the silly little drill
>jig for installing the camloc receptacles is priced at $475 in ACS. It's
>practically the same thing as a drill jig for anchor nuts and I know goddamn
>well those are not patented. Uncle Sam, do you have a patent on those?
>
>If zoozes are not in the public domain I'm a monkey's uncle. Matter of
>fact you can buy them at auto speed shops and they don't even call them
>zoozes.
>
>
>>--
>>http://www.ernestisasweetie.org/
>>"Ignorance is mankinds normal state,
>> alleviated by information and experience."
>> Veeduber
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> the silly little drill jig for installing the camloc receptacles is priced at $475 in ACS.
>
OK, I'm no A&P and haven't been to mechanic school. I have been
installing camloc receptacles for 30 years and never ever heard of one
of those drill jigs. I use one of those, I guess you call them step
drills. I don't see how anything could be better than those even if they
were the same $15.00 or so. $475.00!! OUCH! I think I would gnaw a hole
in there first

[B2431]

>From: "L.D."
>
>
> jls wrote:
>
>>"Ernest Christley" > wrote in message
. com...
>> [...]
>>
>>
>>>On another note. DZUS fasteners are pretty old. Is the patent still in
>>>effect. Patents only last 20yrs in most cases.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I kinda doubt the tools I made for installing Dzus buttons would be a cause
>>of action even if the patent were still alive. The tools for installing
>>the grummets and the receptacules are fairly simple. Futhahmoah, I doubt
>>the tools one would make to install camlocs or southco fasteners would
>>violate any patent unless you exactly copied THEIR tools. And even then
>>I'm still skeptickle. Geezus, Youseff et Maria, the silly little drill
>>jig for installing the camloc receptacles is priced at $475 in ACS. It's
>>practically the same thing as a drill jig for anchor nuts and I know goddamn
>>well those are not patented. Uncle Sam, do you have a patent on those?
>>
>>If zoozes are not in the public domain I'm a monkey's uncle. Matter of
>>fact you can buy them at auto speed shops and they don't even call them
>>zoozes.
>>
>>
>>>--
>>>http://www.ernestisasweetie.org/
>>>"Ignorance is mankinds normal state,
>>> alleviated by information and experience."
>>> Veeduber
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> the silly little drill jig for installing the camloc receptacles is priced
>at $475 in ACS.
>>
>OK, I'm no A&P and haven't been to mechanic school. I have been
>installing camloc receptacles for 30 years and never ever heard of one
>of those drill jigs. I use one of those, I guess you call them step
>drills. I don't see how anything could be better than those even if they
>were the same $15.00 or so. $475.00!! OUCH! I think I would gnaw a hole
>in there first

I wonder if ASS has sold any of those. I can imagine them having the same one
on the shelf for years.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Ron Wanttaja]

On 04 May 2004 02:45:58 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

>>OK, I'm no A&P and haven't been to mechanic school. I have been
>>installing camloc receptacles for 30 years and never ever heard of one
>>of those drill jigs. I use one of those, I guess you call them step
>>drills. I don't see how anything could be better than those even if they
>>were the same $15.00 or so. $475.00!! OUCH! I think I would gnaw a hole
>>in there first
>
>I wonder if ASS has sold any of those. I can imagine them having the same one
>on the shelf for years.

Don't have to sell too many, at that price. It's like the "Far
Side" cartoon with the two spiders building a web across the
door of an elementary school: "Yeah, but if we pull it off,
we'll eat like kings!" :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Ron Wanttaja > wrote:

> On 04 May 2004 02:45:58 GMT, (B2431) wrote:
>
> >>OK, I'm no A&P and haven't been to mechanic school. I have been
> >>installing camloc receptacles for 30 years and never ever heard of one
> >>of those drill jigs. I use one of those, I guess you call them step
> >>drills. I don't see how anything could be better than those even if they
> >>were the same $15.00 or so. $475.00!! OUCH! I think I would gnaw a hole
> >>in there first
> >
> >I wonder if ASS has sold any of those. I can imagine them having the same one
> >on the shelf for years.
>
> Don't have to sell too many, at that price. It's like the "Far
> Side" cartoon with the two spiders building a web across the
> door of an elementary school: "Yeah, but if we pull it off,
> we'll eat like kings!" :-)
>
> Ron Wanttaja
>

I have a pliers and the dimple dies that I bought from a Camloc supplier
30 years ago -- I certainly did NOT pay the amounts quoted above for
them! It was something like $10 for the pliers and $25 for the grommet
dimple dies. I also found another pliers at a surplus tool place for $3
about 10 years ago.

You can make tools to cut the proper size holes by grinding a couple of
spade bits to the proper diameter -- they work very well on sheet
aluminum.

[guynoir]

Standard camloc receptacles are self jigging. Use a unibit or rotabroach
to drill a 7/16 hole, drop the back side of the receptacle into the hole
and drill the rivet holes. You can use a standard receptacle as a jig
for a sealed receptacle.

jls wrote:
> Anybody ever made any of these? The pliers would be easy to make. The
> drill jig is $475, the dimpling tools about $300 apiece, and the lockwasher
> tool $100. Anybody ever make any of these, or are they patented? If they
> are patented, maybe that explains the exorbitant prices.
>
> I made and regularly use tools for installing dzus buttons and their
> receptacles. I use them on my airplane. Does that make me a felon?
>
>

--
John Kimmel


I think it will be quiet around here now. So long.

[jls]

"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
> On 04 May 2004 02:45:58 GMT, (B2431) wrote:
>
> >>OK, I'm no A&P and haven't been to mechanic school. I have been
> >>installing camloc receptacles for 30 years and never ever heard of one
> >>of those drill jigs. I use one of those, I guess you call them step
> >>drills. I don't see how anything could be better than those even if they
> >>were the same $15.00 or so. $475.00!! OUCH! I think I would gnaw a hole
> >>in there first
> >
> >I wonder if ASS has sold any of those. I can imagine them having the same
one
> >on the shelf for years.
>
> Don't have to sell too many, at that price. It's like the "Far
> Side" cartoon with the two spiders building a web across the
> door of an elementary school: "Yeah, but if we pull it off,
> we'll eat like kings!" :-)
>
> Ron Wanttaja
>

That Mr. Wanttaja is a funny (and ordinarily amicable) guy but sometimes a
little intimidating. The last exchange I had with him sent me into
temporary exile when he demanded a duel. And all I had done was recognize
his lawyerly wisdom. "Pistols at dawn," he said, if memory serves.

The mechanics on our airport make their own tools for camloc installation
and are astounded by the prices for ACS's tools.
**********

I thoroughly disapprove of duels. I consider them unwise and I know they are
dangerous. Also, sinful. If a man should challenge me, I would take him
kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet retired spot and
kill him.
- -Mark Twain

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Wed, 5 May 2004 08:21:59 -0400, " jls" > wrote:

>That Mr. Wanttaja is a funny (and ordinarily amicable) guy but sometimes a
>little intimidating. The last exchange I had with him sent me into
>temporary exile when he demanded a duel. And all I had done was recognize
>his lawyerly wisdom. "Pistols at dawn," he said, if memory serves.

Don't worry, I would have deloped. :-)

Ron "...and I would have aimed using my blind eye" Wanttaja