PowerFlarm Warnings Display Comparison

[Richard[_9_]]

YouTube of PowerFlarm Warnings showing different displays

System PowerFlarm Core to (LXNAV V7 and Butterfly Display) to Craggy Aero Ultimate Le57.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThNKceB7LNg



Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Richard[_9_]]

On Friday, November 21, 2014 10:11:58 AM UTC-8, Richard wrote:
> YouTube of PowerFlarm Warnings showing different displays
>
> System PowerFlarm Core to (LXNAV V7 and Butterfly Display) to Craggy Aero Ultimate Le57.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThNKceB7LNg
>
>
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Unfortunately the Butterfly is not a bright as V7 and Ultimate Le so the camera does not show the definition and color as good. But the butterfly is readable.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Friday, November 21, 2014 10:28:53 AM UTC-8, Richard wrote:
> On Friday, November 21, 2014 10:11:58 AM UTC-8, Richard wrote:
> > YouTube of PowerFlarm Warnings showing different displays
> >
> > System PowerFlarm Core to (LXNAV V7 and Butterfly Display) to Craggy Aero Ultimate Le57.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThNKceB7LNg
> >
> >
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
>
> Unfortunately the Butterfly is not a bright as V7 and Ultimate Le so the camera does not show the definition and color as good. But the butterfly is readable.
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Nice demo.

Note to self to reread the manual to understand what the relative altitude bars on the warning display correspond to in feet.

It looks like the Ultimate was showing +0ft, the audio was saying "below", the Butterfly was indicating same altitude and the V7 was indicating above. I'm guessing if it's close to the same altitude you might get not entirely consistent indications though I always thought the Flarm sent out the collision warnings - I wonder how much is left up to each display device to do?

9B

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Friday, November 21, 2014 11:12:08 AM UTC-8, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> On Friday, November 21, 2014 10:28:53 AM UTC-8, Richard wrote:
> > On Friday, November 21, 2014 10:11:58 AM UTC-8, Richard wrote:
> > > YouTube of PowerFlarm Warnings showing different displays
> > >
> > > System PowerFlarm Core to (LXNAV V7 and Butterfly Display) to Craggy Aero Ultimate Le57.
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThNKceB7LNg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Richard
> > > www.craggyaero.com
> >
> > Unfortunately the Butterfly is not a bright as V7 and Ultimate Le so the camera does not show the definition and color as good. But the butterfly is readable.
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
>
> Nice demo.
>
> Note to self to reread the manual to understand what the relative altitude bars on the warning display correspond to in feet.
>
> It looks like the Ultimate was showing +0ft, the audio was saying "below", the Butterfly was indicating same altitude and the V7 was indicating above. I'm guessing if it's close to the same altitude you might get not entirely consistent indications though I always thought the Flarm sent out the collision warnings - I wonder how much is left up to each display device to do?
>
> 9B

I got the Butterfly and V7 backwards - and noticed that there is no "same altitude" bar on the Butterfly display so it had to pick above or below. I'm guessing the audio may not have a "same altitude" warning, though it is interesting that it picked opposite of the Butterfly. Timing difference?

When it happens you often have only seconds to react, so it's good to know what the warning is trying to tell you.

9B

[Richard[_9_]]

On Friday, November 21, 2014 11:12:08 AM UTC-8, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> On Friday, November 21, 2014 10:28:53 AM UTC-8, Richard wrote:
> > On Friday, November 21, 2014 10:11:58 AM UTC-8, Richard wrote:
> > > YouTube of PowerFlarm Warnings showing different displays
> > >
> > > System PowerFlarm Core to (LXNAV V7 and Butterfly Display) to Craggy Aero Ultimate Le57.
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThNKceB7LNg
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Richard
> > > www.craggyaero.com
> >
> > Unfortunately the Butterfly is not a bright as V7 and Ultimate Le so the camera does not show the definition and color as good. But the butterfly is readable.
> >
> > Richard
> > www.craggyaero.com
>
> Nice demo.
>
> Note to self to reread the manual to understand what the relative altitude bars on the warning display correspond to in feet.
>
> It looks like the Ultimate was showing +0ft, the audio was saying "below", the Butterfly was indicating same altitude and the V7 was indicating above. I'm guessing if it's close to the same altitude you might get not entirely consistent indications though I always thought the Flarm sent out the collision warnings - I wonder how much is left up to each display device to do?
>
> 9B

Andy,

This video was just to show what the displays looks and sounds like.

I don't think the altitudes are correct as the altimeter in the simulator log file and the ones set on the Ultimate Le and V7 are not in sync with the log file.

I have approx 500 hours flying with the PowerFlarm - V7(Butterfly Display) - Ulitmate Le and the altitudes and warnings I get are accurate. Sometime the lady carries on for another sentence after the glider has passed.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Friday, November 21, 2014 11:40:57 AM UTC-8, Richard wrote:
> On Friday, November 21, 2014 11:12:08 AM UTC-8, Andy Blackburn wrote:
> > On Friday, November 21, 2014 10:28:53 AM UTC-8, Richard wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 21, 2014 10:11:58 AM UTC-8, Richard wrote:
> > > > YouTube of PowerFlarm Warnings showing different displays
> > > >
> > > > System PowerFlarm Core to (LXNAV V7 and Butterfly Display) to Craggy Aero Ultimate Le57.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThNKceB7LNg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Richard
> > > > www.craggyaero.com
> > >
> > > Unfortunately the Butterfly is not a bright as V7 and Ultimate Le so the camera does not show the definition and color as good. But the butterfly is readable.
> > >
> > > Richard
> > > www.craggyaero.com
> >
> > Nice demo.
> >
> > Note to self to reread the manual to understand what the relative altitude bars on the warning display correspond to in feet.
> >
> > It looks like the Ultimate was showing +0ft, the audio was saying "below", the Butterfly was indicating same altitude and the V7 was indicating above. I'm guessing if it's close to the same altitude you might get not entirely consistent indications though I always thought the Flarm sent out the collision warnings - I wonder how much is left up to each display device to do?
> >
> > 9B
>
> Andy,
>
> This video was just to show what the displays looks and sounds like.
>
> I don't think the altitudes are correct as the altimeter in the simulator log file and the ones set on the Ultimate Le and V7 are not in sync with the log file.
>
> I have approx 500 hours flying with the PowerFlarm - V7(Butterfly Display) - Ulitmate Le and the altitudes and warnings I get are accurate. Sometime the lady carries on for another sentence after the glider has passed.
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Thanks Richard - I too have had very good experiences with Flarm accuracy.

The various displays just made me think I don't really have a great understanding of exactly what the symbols mean specifically and it could prove to be important one day.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, November 21, 2014 1:11:58 PM UTC-5, Richard wrote:
> YouTube of PowerFlarm Warnings showing different displays
>
> System PowerFlarm Core to (LXNAV V7 and Butterfly Display) to Craggy Aero Ultimate Le57.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThNKceB7LNg
>
>
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Do you have a sense for how the FlarmView compares in readability to the V7 and Butterfly display? Screen seems small on the FlarmView, but comparable to the butterfly I guess. On the butterfly, I can't make out any targets, then suddenly an alarm. Perhaps that is a scale or mode setting?

[[email protected]]

On Friday, November 21, 2014 1:11:58 PM UTC-5, Richard wrote:
> YouTube of PowerFlarm Warnings showing different displays
>
> System PowerFlarm Core to (LXNAV V7 and Butterfly Display) to Craggy Aero Ultimate Le57.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThNKceB7LNg
>
>
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

Do you have a sense for how the FlarmView compares in readability to the V7 and Butterfly display? Screen seems small on the FlarmView, but comparable to the butterfly I guess. On the butterfly, I can't make out any targets, then suddenly an alarm. Perhaps that is a scale or mode setting issue?

[Sean Fidler]

Great stuff! Thanks!!!

[Ramy[_2_]]

On Friday, November 21, 2014 3:30:50 PM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Great stuff! Thanks!!!

Slightly of topic but I wonder why we are still using clock to tell directions. Yeah it sounds cool but is it really necessary?
In the age of digital clocks, it takes time for most people to interpret it.. Case in point is tow pilots. I noticed about 20% of tow pilots turning opposite direction when I say for example turn to 9 oclock instead of turn left. The rest take few long seconds to interpret.
How about front, back, left, right, front left, back right etc, similar to car GPS? Or 20 degrees left etc? Yeah I know its not perfect either and some people mix left and right as well, but maybe something to consider.

Ramy

[Andrew Ouellet]

If 12 o clock is at the nose, they'll be spinning circles until they run out of gas.

"Turn heading 230" is more specific.

[Richard[_9_]]

On Friday, November 21, 2014 7:42:53 PM UTC-8, Ramy wrote:
> On Friday, November 21, 2014 3:30:50 PM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > Great stuff! Thanks!!!
>
> Slightly of topic but I wonder why we are still using clock to tell directions. Yeah it sounds cool but is it really necessary?
> In the age of digital clocks, it takes time for most people to interpret it. Case in point is tow pilots. I noticed about 20% of tow pilots turning opposite direction when I say for example turn to 9 oclock instead of turn left. The rest take few long seconds to interpret.
> How about front, back, left, right, front left, back right etc, similar to car GPS? Or 20 degrees left etc? Yeah I know its not perfect either and some people mix left and right as well, but maybe something to consider.
>
> Ramy

I sort of agree. The first time I heard the lady my reaction was where is that. I had not looked at a hand clock for at least 15 years. But after some use it came back.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Z Goudie[_2_]]

At 08:36 22 November 2014, Richard wrote:
>On Friday, November 21, 2014 7:42:53 PM UTC-8, Ramy wrote:
>> On Friday, November 21, 2014 3:30:50 PM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
>> > Great stuff! Thanks!!!
>>=20
>> Slightly of topic but I wonder why we are still using clock to tell
>direc=
>tions. Yeah it sounds cool but is it really necessary?

Remember, if you're flying too slowly into a strong headwind in wave and
thus proceeding backwards over the surface of the earth, when Flarm calls a
conflict at 12 o'clock it's behind you....

[[email protected]]

Today we use cell phones to tell time. The direction commands should be.

Traffic in your hand.
Traffic in your pocket.
Traffic by the toilet.
Traffic under the car seat.

Lane

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, November 22, 2014 4:15:04 AM UTC-6, Z Goudie wrote:
> At 08:36 22 November 2014, Richard wrote:
> >On Friday, November 21, 2014 7:42:53 PM UTC-8, Ramy wrote:
> >> On Friday, November 21, 2014 3:30:50 PM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
> >> > Great stuff! Thanks!!!
> >>=20
> >> Slightly of topic but I wonder why we are still using clock to tell
> >direc=
> >tions. Yeah it sounds cool but is it really necessary?
>
> Remember, if you're flying too slowly into a strong headwind in wave and
> thus proceeding backwards over the surface of the earth, when Flarm calls a
> conflict at 12 o'clock it's behind you....

So true, but it's also making the beeping sound to indicate you are backing up, dead giveaway.
beep, beep, beep

[kirk.stant]

On Saturday, November 22, 2014 2:36:38 AM UTC-6, Richard wrote:
> On Friday, November 21, 2014 7:42:53 PM UTC-8, Ramy wrote:
> > On Friday, November 21, 2014 3:30:50 PM UTC-8, Sean Fidler wrote:
> > > Great stuff! Thanks!!!
> >
> > Slightly of topic but I wonder why we are still using clock to tell directions. Yeah it sounds cool but is it really necessary?
> > In the age of digital clocks, it takes time for most people to interpret it. Case in point is tow pilots. I noticed about 20% of tow pilots turning opposite direction when I say for example turn to 9 oclock instead of turn left. The rest take few long seconds to interpret.
> > How about front, back, left, right, front left, back right etc, similar to car GPS? Or 20 degrees left etc? Yeah I know its not perfect either and some people mix left and right as well, but maybe something to consider.
> >
> > Ramy
>
> I sort of agree. The first time I heard the lady my reaction was where is that. I had not looked at a hand clock for at least 15 years. But after some use it came back.
>
> Richard
> www.craggyaero.com

True story:

Back in the days of diesel powered fighters with steam driven radars (F-4s, to those too young to remember), when one of the crewmembers called out a target to the other (F-4 is a two-seater, pilot in front rowing the boat, and WSO in the back shooting the ducks...), it was standard technique to use both left/right AND clock position, to avoid any confusion; so a call might be "OK I've got a tally on the bandit at left 8 o'clock, nose low, closing - come hard left!"

Inevitably, during a debrief of a fight while listening to the cockpit tapes, we heard this exchange: "I've got him! He's at Right 9 o'clock!" "You mean Left 3?" "No! Over there!!!"

Shortly followed by a "Guns tracking on the F-4 rocking his wings...." call..

Seriously, clock positions make a lot more sense than just left/right - as they devide the area to search into nice little unambiguous 30 degree sectors of sky. How do you do that with Left/Right (or Port/Starboard)?

Kirk
66

[James Metcalfe]

>> Remember, if you're flying too slowly into a strong headwind in wave
and
>> thus proceeding backwards over the surface of the earth, when Flarm
calls
>> a conflict at 12 o'clock it's behind you....

More importantly, when it shows "on your left" it means "on your right" -
and that's not just a theoretical
nicety!

[Andy Blackburn[_3_]]

On Saturday, November 22, 2014 9:04:37 AM UTC-8, kirk.stant wrote:
> Seriously, clock positions make a lot more sense than just left/right - as they devide the area to search into nice little unambiguous 30 degree sectors of sky. How do you do that with Left/Right (or Port/Starboard)?
>
> Kirk
> 66

Okay, since you asked for it.

Ahead
Ahead right
Right
Behind right
Behind
Behind left
Left
Ahead left

45 degree sectors

If you want more precision:

Ahead
Ahead ahead right
Ahead right
Right ahead right
Right
Right behind right
Behind right
Behind behind right
Behind
Behind behind left
Behind left
Left behind left
Left
Left ahead left
Ahead left
Ahead ahead left

22.5 degree sectors.

Of course if you use this over the radio for a position callout you are most likely to get a WTF in reply - maybe better to learn the clock.

;-)

[[email protected]]

Clearnav allows personalized alerts. You can replace the wav files with whatever works for you. Highly recommended!

For example, my 5 o'clock low alert is "traffic, right side, down low, 5 o'clock". It gets me looking right with no delay, down and then finally I scan forward or back based on the clock verbiage but I'm already immediately looking in the right general direction based on the first two audibles.

I would estimate (at least for me) that it reduces the time to pinpoint where to look by half. Course I still struggle with the big hand and the little hand so your mileage may vary. :)

[Richard[_9_]]

On Saturday, November 22, 2014 1:36:57 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> Clearnav allows personalized alerts. You can replace the wav files with whatever works for you. Highly recommended!
>
> For example, my 5 o'clock low alert is "traffic, right side, down low, 5 o'clock". It gets me looking right with no delay, down and then finally I scan forward or back based on the clock verbiage but I'm already immediately looking in the right general direction based on the first two audibles.
>
> I would estimate (at least for me) that it reduces the time to pinpoint where to look by half. Course I still struggle with the big hand and the little hand so your mileage may vary. :)

Please provide us with a Video so we can evaluate.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Craig Reinholt]

- maybe better to learn the clock. ;-)

Considering that some schools in our area are not teaching cursive writing and I recently came across some kids 15 years old who can't do their own signature, this may be a stretch.... sigh

[[email protected]]

Don't have one on hand but I can record the test alert tomorrow and post.

$14.95 video production fee
$5.15 youtube upload fee
8.25% sales tax
Various licensing and regulatory fees

Your lookin at roughly $32.00 total but it's well worth it. Cash, money order or free soaring stuff from craggy aero would be nice.

Scott

[son_of_flubber]

On Saturday, November 22, 2014 5:15:04 AM UTC-5, Z Goudie wrote:

> Remember, if you're flying too slowly into a strong headwind in wave and
> thus proceeding backwards over the surface of the earth, when Flarm calls a
> conflict at 12 o'clock it's behind you....

So more generally, 12 o'clock on the Flarm warning circle aligns with bearing rather than heading?

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, November 22, 2014 10:03:18 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Saturday, November 22, 2014 5:15:04 AM UTC-5, Z Goudie wrote:
>
> > Remember, if you're flying too slowly into a strong headwind in wave and
> > thus proceeding backwards over the surface of the earth, when Flarm calls a
> > conflict at 12 o'clock it's behind you....
>
> So more generally, 12 o'clock on the Flarm warning circle aligns with bearing rather than heading?

You are kidding, I hope.
UH

[kirk.stant]

On Saturday, November 22, 2014 9:03:18 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Saturday, November 22, 2014 5:15:04 AM UTC-5, Z Goudie wrote:
>
> > Remember, if you're flying too slowly into a strong headwind in wave and
> > thus proceeding backwards over the surface of the earth, when Flarm calls a
> > conflict at 12 o'clock it's behind you....
>
> So more generally, 12 o'clock on the Flarm warning circle aligns with bearing rather than heading?

OK, time for some basic FLARM theory:

FLARM uses GPS and pressure altitude exclusively; it has no heading input. So the warnings it sends are based on pressure altitude, GPS position and GPS track - and it assumes you are moving forward. It has no way of knowing which way your fuselage is pointing.

So FLARM warnings are aligned to your TRACK, not your HEADING. And in most cases, this is sufficient, as you are not trying to nail down a bearing to another glider within a few degrees - each clock sector is 30 degrees, remember.

That's why a FLARM display on a moving map (like an Oudie) is nice - it will be based on the GPS position of the other FLARM equipped gliders, so even if you are backing up in wave, it will show their true position relative to you (although, you will appear to be flying backwards on your Oudie!).

So, to summarize, the displayed BEARING to a FLARM target is referenced to your TRACK, not your HEADING, so if there is a lot of drift due to wind, you will have to compensate for it.

(Any FLARM-smarter guys out there, please correct me if I have got it wrong!)

Kirk
66

[Tango Eight]

On Saturday, November 22, 2014 4:36:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Clearnav allows personalized alerts. You can replace the wav files with whatever works for you. Highly recommended!
>
> For example, my 5 o'clock low alert is "traffic, right side, down low, 5 o'clock". It gets me looking right with no delay, down and then finally I scan forward or back based on the clock verbiage but I'm already immediately looking in the right general direction based on the first two audibles.
>
> I would estimate (at least for me) that it reduces the time to pinpoint where to look by half. Course I still struggle with the big hand and the little hand so your mileage may vary. :)

But you still gotta know the clock to name the .wavs correctly :-)

Here's a 30 second clip of Flarm warning on CN. CN supplies the voice, the beeping you hear is from a Butterfly 57mm display that's also in my panel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APMTBfz6XZ0

-Evan Ludeman for CNi

[[email protected]]

Kidding of course!

Here is a quick video...free of charge.

http://youtu.be/PSQ9UzKYWxU

The list of all the audible collisions is labeled clearly so its easy to re record each.

[John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]]

What is all that printed material below the ClearNav. Not instructions I hope...

[[email protected]]

Instructions but not for the Clearnav.

The list on the left details exactly how to make big money day trading in the stock market. The list on the right contains all the reasons one should not post videos of their panel to RAS.