To the guy writing the heli lesson diary:

[helicopterandy]

I don't post here often but I have read w/ interest your diary of
flight lessons. A few questions if you don't mind:
Why are you cooling down an R22 ( I assume from your threads that is
what you're flying) for five minutes before you disengage the clutch?
R22 checklists state a 2 minute cooldown before clutch disengage. The
factory says it doesn't need even 2 minutes if you get substantial
cylinder head temp reduction in less time. I cannot imagine a flight
school allowing for one second more cooldown than is required by the
factory. Unless you are paying for time on the skids, instead of
collective time. If so, if you are paying for total Hobbs time, they
may be screwing you, check it out. No R22 needs a five minute cooldown
before clutch release. Just two minutes for coolodown, then release
clutch for thirty seconds, then get mixture guard off and pull mixture
out. Call Robinson Helicopters yourself and check it out. You may be
asked for that additional cooldown time simply to run up your tab if
you are paying for Hobbs time.
Also, in one of your posts you state that after bringing the ship to a
hover after an approach you had a wind gust that pushed the ship into
a right yaw that was so extreme you had to add FULL left pedal to stop
it. I've flown R22s for a while and I have NEVER approached the need
for full left pedal. Ever. The R22 has very good tail rotor
characteristics as opposed to some of the Bell's and others that can
get you in trouble quickly with their less than ideal tail rotor
designs that allow tail rotor vortices to form quickly in the wrong
wind conditions, so I find it incredible that you got the ship so
twisted that it was necessary for you to bottom the left pedal to get
the ship back in trim.
And that your CFI never took over??!!!!!! Maybe you just thought you
used all left pedal? If not, get your ship checked out pronto, though
I seriously doubt that you used all left pedal as you stated. Your CFI
would have been on the controls very fast had this actually been the
case or either he's wanting to get a new ship!
You also mention "shimmy and shaking" all the way down during an
approach. Are you getting into a settling w/ power situation? If you
are experiencing violent shaking let me assure you this isn't normal.
A little vibration for sure, but nothing like you are describing, or
is this again a bit of exageration on your part? Not trying to provoke
you here, as I have been there myself (learning to fly helis) and it
can be VERY tense at times. It's just that this Google Rotorcraft
forum seems to be frequented by mainly remote control helicopter
enthusists and the Rotorway/Safari/experimental deathwish crowd that
have very limited knowledge about flying and I would really want to
make ceratin that a novice flyer like yourself will give an accurate
account here so as not to confuse all the other readers here who have
not became heli pilots.
Please understand I'm not trying to ridicule or be derisive of your
descriptions, I've been right where you are and I know the feelings
very well. I'd just like to urge you to write a diary with less
adjectives and bluster than what you are sometimes doing now. You are
(inadvertatntly I'm sure)making it sound as if some of your flights
are more akin to "The Right Stuff" movie footage than true flight
training, especially the "full left pedal" and "shaking" stuff. Either
that or your instructor needs to do a better job of instructing as I
can assure you this is not the way it's done.
Regards,
Mark
N26394

[helicopterandy]

(helicopterandy) wrote in message >...
> I don't post here often but I have read w/ interest your diary of
> flight lessons. A few questions if you don't mind:
> Why are you cooling down an R22 ( I assume from your threads that is
> what you're flying) for five minutes before you disengage the clutch?
> R22 checklists state a 2 minute cooldown before clutch disengage. The
> factory says it doesn't need even 2 minutes if you get substantial
> cylinder head temp reduction in less time. I cannot imagine a flight
> school allowing for one second more cooldown than is required by the
> factory. Unless you are paying for time on the skids, instead of
> collective time. If so, if you are paying for total Hobbs time, they
> may be screwing you, check it out. No R22 needs a five minute cooldown
> before clutch release. Just two minutes for coolodown, then release
> clutch for thirty seconds, then get mixture guard off and pull mixture
> out. Call Robinson Helicopters yourself and check it out. You may be
> asked for that additional cooldown time simply to run up your tab if
> you are paying for Hobbs time.
> Also, in one of your posts you state that after bringing the ship to a
> hover after an approach you had a wind gust that pushed the ship into
> a right yaw that was so extreme you had to add FULL left pedal to stop
> it. I've flown R22s for a while and I have NEVER approached the need
> for full left pedal. Ever. The R22 has very good tail rotor
> characteristics as opposed to some of the Bell's and others that can
> get you in trouble quickly with their less than ideal tail rotor
> designs that allow tail rotor vortices to form quickly in the wrong
> wind conditions, so I find it incredible that you got the ship so
> twisted that it was necessary for you to bottom the left pedal to get
> the ship back in trim.
> And that your CFI never took over??!!!!!! Maybe you just thought you
> used all left pedal? If not, get your ship checked out pronto, though
> I seriously doubt that you used all left pedal as you stated. Your CFI
> would have been on the controls very fast had this actually been the
> case or either he's wanting to get a new ship!
> You also mention "shimmy and shaking" all the way down during an
> approach. Are you getting into a settling w/ power situation? If you
> are experiencing violent shaking let me assure you this isn't normal.
> A little vibration for sure, but nothing like you are describing, or
> is this again a bit of exageration on your part? Not trying to provoke
> you here, as I have been there myself (learning to fly helis) and it
> can be VERY tense at times. It's just that this Google Rotorcraft
> forum seems to be frequented by mainly remote control helicopter
> enthusists and the Rotorway/Safari/experimental deathwish crowd that
> have very limited knowledge about flying and I would really want to
> make ceratin that a novice flyer like yourself will give an accurate
> account here so as not to confuse all the other readers here who have
> not became heli pilots.
> Please understand I'm not trying to ridicule or be derisive of your
> descriptions, I've been right where you are and I know the feelings
> very well. I'd just like to urge you to write a diary with less
> adjectives and bluster than what you are sometimes doing now. You are
> (inadvertatntly I'm sure)making it sound as if some of your flights
> are more akin to "The Right Stuff" movie footage than true flight
> training, especially the "full left pedal" and "shaking" stuff. Either
> that or your instructor needs to do a better job of instructing as I
> can assure you this is not the way it's done.
> Regards,
> Mark
> N26394
PS
Take a look at the "RobinsonR22helicopters" forum on Yahoo Groups for
a bit more educational forum.
Regards,
Mark

[Steve R.]

Hi Kevin,

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz *AT* adelphia *DOT* net> wrote in
message ...
> On 6 Sep 2004 23:20:19 -0700, (helicopterandy)
> wrote:
>
>
>>A little vibration for sure, but nothing like you are describing, or
>>is this again a bit of exageration on your part? Not trying to provoke
>>you here, as I have been there myself (learning to fly helis) and it
>>can be VERY tense at times. It's just that this Google Rotorcraft
>>forum seems to be frequented by mainly remote control helicopter
>>enthusists and the Rotorway/Safari/experimental deathwish crowd that
>>have very limited knowledge about flying and I would really want to
>>make ceratin that a novice flyer like yourself will give an accurate
>>account here so as not to confuse all the other readers here who have
>>not became heli pilots.
>
> My postings are anectdotal only. They are for entertainment PERIOD.
> If anyone is assuming this is part of some freebie flight training,
> they need to look into another hobby/profession.
>
>>Please understand I'm not trying to ridicule or be derisive of your
>>descriptions, I've been right where you are and I know the feelings
>>very well. I'd just like to urge you to write a diary with less
>>adjectives and bluster than what you are sometimes doing now. You are
>>(inadvertatntly I'm sure)making it sound as if some of your flights
>>are more akin to "The Right Stuff" movie footage than true flight
>>training, especially the "full left pedal" and "shaking" stuff. Either
>>that or your instructor needs to do a better job of instructing as I
>>can assure you this is not the way it's done.
>
> Since I'm not a professional writer and am not trying to write a
> column for any aviation related magazine or fill out the pages of some
> training manual, I'll continue to write what I'm feeling. If you
> choose to assume "shaking" is "violent" and "full left pedal" really
> isn't (funny, I don't remember seeing you in the cockpit next to me)
> that's fine. I don't take offense at what you're saying and I do see
> your point. However, since (again) these posts are anecdotal in
> nature, I don't see the need to accurately document each and every
> control movement and its associated effect on the helicopter.
>

I don't know who this guy is but please don't take him too seriously. Your
stories have been great. Please keep em coming!

I've met a few rotorcraft rated pilots (of the full size and FAA certified
variety) with 8k, 10k, 20k, etc. hours under their belts that weren't as
sharp on some issues as they like to think they were. I'm not saying that
they are not competent pilots. Just that, with all their time, they
sometimes start thinking they can do no wrong. It's not uncommon amoung
pilot types for any kind of aircraft.

Yes, there are more than a few RC pilots that lurk around here. So what.
The high time, full size pilots really shouldn't "assume" that we're all
totally ignorant about helicopters and their dynamics just because we don't
sit in the thing. I've done a LOT of studying with regards to helicopter
dynamics through the years in an attempt to better understand why my model
did what it did the other day. I'm not claiming to be an expert by any
stretch of the imagination but I think I've got certain basics down pretty
solidly. :-)

> Perhaps my "bluster" will make the "Rotorway/Safari/experimental
> deathwish crowd" (Talk about derisive) consider additional training
> before strapping in.
>

I certainly hope so. I'd also hope the same would go for those like the guy
you're responding to. I don't care if he's got 8k hours or more under his
belt or not. Additional training is never a bad thing.

> If I may quote Steve R;
>
You certainly may! :-D

> Fly safe.
>
Steve R.

PS: I was surprised by this high time pilot asking "why" you do a cool down
period on the R22. I know that the cool down procedure is required on
turbine machine but I can't remember being in any full size helicopter
(piston or turbine) where they "didn't" do a cool down of some sort at the
end of the flight.

[Shiver Me Timbers]

> Steve R. > wrote:

> I don't know who this guy is but please don't take him too seriously.

You know Steve I'm just a lurker, and armchair pilot like many in this
group but it did seem like he had a bone to pick with that post.

> Your stories have been great. Please keep em coming!

Hear hear..... Some of the best postings in this group is some time.

Informative, detailed, kinda makes you feel your sitting their beside
him.

Don't know about the rest of the people in this group but that's the
sorta stuff I like to read.

[helicopterandy]

"Steve R." > wrote in message >...
> Hi Kevin,
>
> "The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz *AT* adelphia *DOT* net> wrote in
> message ...
> > On 6 Sep 2004 23:20:19 -0700, (helicopterandy)
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>A little vibration for sure, but nothing like you are describing, or
> >>is this again a bit of exageration on your part? Not trying to provoke
> >>you here, as I have been there myself (learning to fly helis) and it
> >>can be VERY tense at times. It's just that this Google Rotorcraft
> >>forum seems to be frequented by mainly remote control helicopter
> >>enthusists and the Rotorway/Safari/experimental deathwish crowd that
> >>have very limited knowledge about flying and I would really want to
> >>make ceratin that a novice flyer like yourself will give an accurate
> >>account here so as not to confuse all the other readers here who have
> >>not became heli pilots.
> >
> > My postings are anectdotal only. They are for entertainment PERIOD.
> > If anyone is assuming this is part of some freebie flight training,
> > they need to look into another hobby/profession.
> >
> >>Please understand I'm not trying to ridicule or be derisive of your
> >>descriptions, I've been right where you are and I know the feelings
> >>very well. I'd just like to urge you to write a diary with less
> >>adjectives and bluster than what you are sometimes doing now. You are
> >>(inadvertatntly I'm sure)making it sound as if some of your flights
> >>are more akin to "The Right Stuff" movie footage than true flight
> >>training, especially the "full left pedal" and "shaking" stuff. Either
> >>that or your instructor needs to do a better job of instructing as I
> >>can assure you this is not the way it's done.
> >
> > Since I'm not a professional writer and am not trying to write a
> > column for any aviation related magazine or fill out the pages of some
> > training manual, I'll continue to write what I'm feeling. If you
> > choose to assume "shaking" is "violent" and "full left pedal" really
> > isn't (funny, I don't remember seeing you in the cockpit next to me)
> > that's fine. I don't take offense at what you're saying and I do see
> > your point. However, since (again) these posts are anecdotal in
> > nature, I don't see the need to accurately document each and every
> > control movement and its associated effect on the helicopter.
> >
>
> I don't know who this guy is but please don't take him too seriously. Your
> stories have been great. Please keep em coming!
>
> I've met a few rotorcraft rated pilots (of the full size and FAA certified
> variety) with 8k, 10k, 20k, etc. hours under their belts that weren't as
> sharp on some issues as they like to think they were. I'm not saying that
> they are not competent pilots. Just that, with all their time, they
> sometimes start thinking they can do no wrong. It's not uncommon amoung
> pilot types for any kind of aircraft.
>
> Yes, there are more than a few RC pilots that lurk around here. So what.
> The high time, full size pilots really shouldn't "assume" that we're all
> totally ignorant about helicopters and their dynamics just because we don't
> sit in the thing. I've done a LOT of studying with regards to helicopter
> dynamics through the years in an attempt to better understand why my model
> did what it did the other day. I'm not claiming to be an expert by any
> stretch of the imagination but I think I've got certain basics down pretty
> solidly. :-)
>
> > Perhaps my "bluster" will make the "Rotorway/Safari/experimental
> > deathwish crowd" (Talk about derisive) consider additional training
> > before strapping in.
> >
>
> I certainly hope so. I'd also hope the same would go for those like the guy
> you're responding to. I don't care if he's got 8k hours or more under his
> belt or not. Additional training is never a bad thing.
>
> > If I may quote Steve R;
> >
> You certainly may! :-D
>
> > Fly safe.
> >
> Steve R.
>
> PS: I was surprised by this high time pilot asking "why" you do a cool down
> period on the R22. I know that the cool down procedure is required on
> turbine machine but I can't remember being in any full size helicopter
> (piston or turbine) where they "didn't" do a cool down of some sort at the
> end of the flight.

Dear Sir or whomever you are (I am responding NOT to the diary writer
here but to the other guy who chose to jump into the middle of this),
I was refering to Mr. Diary writer's stated FIVE MINUTE COOLDOWN of a
helicopter that requires two minute max before clutch disengagement!!!
What's so hard to understand about that? If the guy's school is
making him "cooldown" for five minutes and he's paying for Hobbs time
(and again maybe you don't know what Hobbs time means, it stands for
every second the engine has oil pressure) then he's paying for time
that is absolutely not required and all he's doing is paying for time
"easy time" that the school is not earning. PS I notice he (Mr Diary
Writer)chose not to respond to this question so maybe he's going to
take it up w/ his school as he should!!
$200 plus an hour adds up really fast. Oh yeah...one more thing if I
may: Believe me when I say with absolute certainty that you don't have
the "basics" down at all, in any form or fashion if you've never taken
a lesson. RC hobbycrafts are a wee bit different than the real thing.
Go give it a try.

Dear Mr Diary Writer,
Thanks for the reply. I apprecaite the fact that you aren't a
professional writer and I only wanted to urge you to be careful in
your descriptions as you/we never know who will read this stuff and
take you literally. Seriously, the experimental crowd may do so. And
you were right re my "derisive" comments about calling the
Rotorway/Safari crowd "deathwishers" and I shouldn't have used that
term. Although I wouldn't fly one of those ships at gunpoint.
Take care and blue skies, and if you ARE using full left pedal and
your CFI didn't jump on the controls, he's got more guts than me! :)

Regards,
Mark
N26394

[Steve R.]

"helicopterandy" > wrote in message
m...
> Dear Sir or whomever you are (I am responding NOT to the diary writer
> here but to the other guy who chose to jump into the middle of this),
> I was refering to Mr. Diary writer's stated FIVE MINUTE COOLDOWN of a
> helicopter that requires two minute max before clutch disengagement!!!
> What's so hard to understand about that? If the guy's school is
> making him "cooldown" for five minutes and he's paying for Hobbs time
> (and again maybe you don't know what Hobbs time means, it stands for
> every second the engine has oil pressure) then he's paying for time
> that is absolutely not required and all he's doing is paying for time
> "easy time" that the school is not earning. PS I notice he (Mr Diary
> Writer)chose not to respond to this question so maybe he's going to
> take it up w/ his school as he should!!
> $200 plus an hour adds up really fast. Oh yeah...one more thing if I
> may: Believe me when I say with absolute certainty that you don't have
> the "basics" down at all, in any form or fashion if you've never taken
> a lesson. RC hobbycrafts are a wee bit different than the real thing.
> Go give it a try.
>
> Regards,
> Mark
> N26394

Hi Mark,

First, as a matter of fact, I DO know that a Hobbs meter is.

Second, the post I responded to "was" a response from "Mr. Diary Writer."
If you'd have paid a little more attention, you might have caught that, and
he "did" explain the situation with his particular flight school with
regards to the extended cool down time. Maybe you ought to reread that
part.

Third, I do have a bit of duel instruction if full size helicopters so I've
got a better idea of what's involved than you'll probably give me credit
for. Frankly, you don't have a clue as to what I do and do not know on the
"basics" of rotorcraft dynamics. Your response to me simply proves my point
as far as I'm concerned. I've been flying RC helicopters for 22 years and
the little bit of duel instruction I've received in the full size birds only
proved to me that the machines you know and the one's I know aren't that
different in the grand scheme of things. The biggest difference is the
pilots point of view. I'll throw your last statement back at you, "Have you
ever tried the RC side?"

Again, I don't claim to be an expert on everything related to rotorcraft but
I, and a lot of RCer's out there, aren't as ignorant as you seem to think.
Many of us are, but not all! Your attitude was pretty smug with regards to
RCer's and those who choose to fly experimental full size helicopters,
whether you intended it to be or not. Just because the machine is FAA
certified doesn't mean isn't so superior. Yes, there are standards the
machines have to meet but they can still have significant problems. Do a
search on the early history of Robinson's R22. They got off to a pretty
rocky start in the beginning.

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[helicopterandy]

"Steve R." > wrote in message >...
> "helicopterandy" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Dear Sir or whomever you are (I am responding NOT to the diary writer
> > here but to the other guy who chose to jump into the middle of this),
> > I was refering to Mr. Diary writer's stated FIVE MINUTE COOLDOWN of a
> > helicopter that requires two minute max before clutch disengagement!!!
> > What's so hard to understand about that? If the guy's school is
> > making him "cooldown" for five minutes and he's paying for Hobbs time
> > (and again maybe you don't know what Hobbs time means, it stands for
> > every second the engine has oil pressure) then he's paying for time
> > that is absolutely not required and all he's doing is paying for time
> > "easy time" that the school is not earning. PS I notice he (Mr Diary
> > Writer)chose not to respond to this question so maybe he's going to
> > take it up w/ his school as he should!!
> > $200 plus an hour adds up really fast. Oh yeah...one more thing if I
> > may: Believe me when I say with absolute certainty that you don't have
> > the "basics" down at all, in any form or fashion if you've never taken
> > a lesson. RC hobbycrafts are a wee bit different than the real thing.
> > Go give it a try.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Mark
> > N26394
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> First, as a matter of fact, I DO know that a Hobbs meter is.
>
> Second, the post I responded to "was" a response from "Mr. Diary Writer."
> If you'd have paid a little more attention, you might have caught that, and
> he "did" explain the situation with his particular flight school with
> regards to the extended cool down time. Maybe you ought to reread that
> part.
>
> Third, I do have a bit of duel instruction if full size helicopters so I've
> got a better idea of what's involved than you'll probably give me credit
> for. Frankly, you don't have a clue as to what I do and do not know on the
> "basics" of rotorcraft dynamics. Your response to me simply proves my point
> as far as I'm concerned. I've been flying RC helicopters for 22 years and
> the little bit of duel instruction I've received in the full size birds only
> proved to me that the machines you know and the one's I know aren't that
> different in the grand scheme of things. The biggest difference is the
> pilots point of view. I'll throw your last statement back at you, "Have you
> ever tried the RC side?"
>
> Again, I don't claim to be an expert on everything related to rotorcraft but
> I, and a lot of RCer's out there, aren't as ignorant as you seem to think.
> Many of us are, but not all! Your attitude was pretty smug with regards to
> RCer's and those who choose to fly experimental full size helicopters,
> whether you intended it to be or not. Just because the machine is FAA
> certified doesn't mean isn't so superior. Yes, there are standards the
> machines have to meet but they can still have significant problems. Do a
> search on the early history of Robinson's R22. They got off to a pretty
> rocky start in the beginning.
>
> Fly Safe,
> Steve R.


STEVE,
POINT TAKEN. WELL PUT. I DO HAVE TO EXPLAIN THAT THIS SITE IS ONE OF
THE MOST DIFFICULT I'VE EVER SEEN TO EVEN BE ABLE TO KNOW WITH ANY
CERTAINTY OF WHO IS SAYING WHAT TO WHOM. I KNOW IT'S A FREE SITE BUT
IT REALLY SEEMS LIKE GOOGLE COULD COME UP WITH A BETTER WAY TO
ORGANIZE THESE FORUMS. GO LOOK AT THE YAHOO GROUPS FORUM OR VERTICAL
REFERENCE'S FORUMS OR PRUNE'S OR MANY OTHERS TO SEE HOW MUCH EASIER
THEY ARE TO READ AND KEEP UP WITH.
REGARDS,
MARK
PS
COME TO VIRGINIA AND I'LL GIVE YOU A RIDE.

[Steve R.]

"helicopterandy" > wrote in message
om...
> STEVE,
> POINT TAKEN. WELL PUT.
>
> REGARDS,
> MARK
> PS
> COME TO VIRGINIA AND I'LL GIVE YOU A RIDE.

Thanks Mark. I may just take you up on that! :-)

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[Andrew Crane]

"helicopterandy" > wrote in message
om...
> I don't post here often

and judging by your attitude later in this thread I'm sure most of us are
glad you don't.

I cannot imagine a flight
> school allowing for one second more cooldown than is required by the
> factory. Unless you are paying for time on the skids, instead of
> collective time.

The R22 datcon works on engine running. The 44 runs on collective time.

If so, if you are paying for total Hobbs time, they
> may be screwing you, check it out. No R22 needs a five minute cooldown
> before clutch release.

Depends how hot you got it and the ambient temperature. You are looking for
_significant_ CHT reduction so as not to shock cool the engine, not an
arbitrary time. If the school owns the aircraft I'm sure they want the
engine to go TBO and so treat it kindly.

>Just two minutes for coolodown, then release
> clutch for thirty seconds, then get mixture guard off and pull mixture
> out. Call Robinson Helicopters yourself and check it out. You may be
> asked for that additional cooldown time simply to run up your tab if
> you are paying for Hobbs time.

And I suppose they then run the clock back so they can avoid the time-due
maintenance the extra hobbs time would have clocked up?

> Also, in one of your posts you state that after bringing the ship to a
> hover after an approach you had a wind gust that pushed the ship into
> a right yaw that was so extreme you had to add FULL left pedal to stop
> it. I've flown R22s for a while and I have NEVER approached the need
> for full left pedal. Ever.

Presumably then you haven't flown one in a stiff wind? A gusty crosswind
from the right can easily demand some heavy left pedal.

> You also mention "shimmy and shaking" all the way down during an
> approach. Are you getting into a settling w/ power situation? If you
> are experiencing violent shaking let me assure you this isn't normal.

He didn't say violent, just shimmying and shaking. A slow and high approach
will do this. Once ETL is lost the thing will be hovering OGE and bangs
about bit. OK it's on the wrong part of both the curves that matter but
sometimes it's the safest or only way into a landing area. It doesn't make
it abnormal, just not ideal.

>It's just that this Google Rotorcraft
> forum seems to be frequented by mainly remote control helicopter
> enthusists and the Rotorway/Safari/experimental deathwish crowd that
> have very limited knowledge about flying and I would really want to
> make ceratin that a novice flyer like yourself will give an accurate
> account here so as not to confuse all the other readers here who have
> not became heli pilots.

This is usenet, nothing to do with google.

> Please understand I'm not trying to ridicule or be derisive of your
> descriptions, I've been right where you are and I know the feelings
> very well. I'd just like to urge you to write a diary with less
> adjectives and bluster than what you are sometimes doing now. You are
> (inadvertatntly I'm sure)making it sound as if some of your flights
> are more akin to "The Right Stuff" movie footage than true flight
> training, especially the "full left pedal" and "shaking" stuff. Either
> that or your instructor needs to do a better job of instructing as I
> can assure you this is not the way it's done.

From memory I think I found the whole training thing full of adjectives.
What seems normal now seemed fraught a few years ago.

Regards
Andrew

[Shiver Me Timbers]

> GW De Lacey > wrote:

> It just occurred to me that I'm x no-archived and he won't see the
> message unless it's quoted by someone else.

Are you sure...????

I don't see anything in your post or headers that would indicate that.

Now I suppose if I wasn't so lazy I'd go check your last post to see
if it showed up in GOOGLE, but as I said... If I wasn't so lazy.

[Davdirect]

Kevin,
Keep up the good work and the diary...I've really enjoyed following along with
you as I'm a 41yr old fart in the same point in life, and have experienced most
of what you write about. Will be doing my first solo cross country next week!
Hang in there. Fly safe!
Dave in Toledo

[Steve R.]

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz *AT* adelphia *DOT* net> wrote in
message ...
> On 10 Sep 2004 14:34:40 GMT, (Davdirect) wrote:
> Tried to keep it up yesterday. Unfortunately, the ship I was
> scheduled in was down for a maintenance check.

You seem to get catching a lot of those lately! ;-)

>Someone earlier in the
> day overspeeded (is that a word? eheh) either the engine or the rotor
> system so the A&Ps were crawling all over it check it out. (Checked
> out ok)

That's good. I would think an overspeed would include both the engine and
rotor system. Personally, I wouldn't care "as" much about the engine. You
eat a valve, engine quits, autorotate. Depending on "where" that happens it
shouldn't be too much of a problem, especially if you're sticking to the
height/velocity charts like you're supposed to. Throw a rotor blade however
............ :-O I bet it increased the pucker factor for whomever was
flying it at the time though! :-)

> I could have snuck in about .5 before my block was over, but
> decided to just shine the session and wait for next week. Looks like
> I'm up for 3 flights next week and possibly more. (I told my
> instructor that since ground school ended last Friday - got a 97% on
> my final! - I'd like to fly 7 days/week. ehehhe)
>

97! Not bad, Congratulations!

I bet you're glad that's over with. :-)

> Should have another installment on Monday night. (and another on
> Wednesday and another on Friday)
>

Great! I'm leaving on vacation tomorrow morning and should be back by
Friday or Saturday of next week. I look forward to reading how everything
went.

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[John Martin]

> The R22 datcon works on engine running. The 44 runs on collective time.
>
That varies a bit. My machine R22 has both meters (as do many)
You are allowed to choose one or the other as your "metered Time" but you
can't change from one to the other. If you use standard Hobbs on the oil
pressure line use the numbers as they are shown. If you choose to use the
collective meter you have to multiply the time by 1.12 to get the time.

> arbitrary time. If the school owns the aircraft I'm sure they want the
> engine to go TBO and so treat it kindly.
>
Long runs at low engine RPMs have a propensity to foul up the plugs if the
temp is already down. Especially the lower ones. If the engine is hot then
its fair enough but after 5 mins I would have thought it was cooled enough.

> > a right yaw that was so extreme you had to add FULL left pedal to stop

Yep. try it in a howling crosswind. Had it so strong at times that full left
pedal wasn't enough. In that case - settle into the wind put it down. forget
about trying to line it up with the H. Come back later with the wheels and
turn it round.
> He didn't say violent, just shimmying and shaking. A slow and high
approach
>
Maybe those cross winds again?

[Micbloo]

>Hear hear..... Some of the best postings in this group is some time.

In a LONG TIME. This group used to be pretty active then it sort of died
away. NOw I see multiple postings and threads
again and some of the "old-timers" LOL, posting.


>Don't know about the rest of the people in this group but that's the
>sorta stuff I like to read.

Yup, great posts. Dont stop.

[Kathryn & Stuart Fields]

Andy: I'm sure that you follow your own advice and don't shoot your mouth
off about something of which you have little knowledge. I'm therefore
assuming that you have time in both the Safaris and Rotorways. I would be
curious to hear of your experiences in these ships. I'm more than willing to
listen and learn from someone who has more experience and knowledge than I
have. I have PIC time in Schweitzer 300CB, the Bell 47, a Safari, with some
stick time in a Brantly, Rotorway, and even the Groen Bros. new two seat
gyrocopter; and in the old days built and taught myself to fly a Benson
gyrocopter. I've had a PPSEL since the late 50's and my PPH for 3yrs. I
just finished showing my Safari, that I built and in which have accumulated
200hrs, to the Chief Test Pilot Instructor from the Test Pilot School in
Mojave CA.. He is looking forward to a ride in the ship. I think that this
guy qualifies as an expert on helicopters. He has written a well received
book on helicopters. I believe that he knows quite a bit more about the
aerodynamics and flight characteristics of more different helicopters than
most people will ever see, let alone fly. Does this qualify him as a member
of the "death wish crowd that have very limited knowledg about flyin"?
I think that in some cases you have offered pretty good advice that you
don't find necessary to follow yourself.
Stu Fields Safari pilot.
"helicopterandy" > wrote in message
om...
> I don't post here often but I have read w/ interest your diary of
> flight lessons. A few questions if you don't mind:
> Why are you cooling down an R22 ( I assume from your threads that is
> what you're flying) for five minutes before you disengage the clutch?
> R22 checklists state a 2 minute cooldown before clutch disengage. The
> factory says it doesn't need even 2 minutes if you get substantial
> cylinder head temp reduction in less time. I cannot imagine a flight
> school allowing for one second more cooldown than is required by the
> factory. Unless you are paying for time on the skids, instead of
> collective time. If so, if you are paying for total Hobbs time, they
> may be screwing you, check it out. No R22 needs a five minute cooldown
> before clutch release. Just two minutes for coolodown, then release
> clutch for thirty seconds, then get mixture guard off and pull mixture
> out. Call Robinson Helicopters yourself and check it out. You may be
> asked for that additional cooldown time simply to run up your tab if
> you are paying for Hobbs time.
> Also, in one of your posts you state that after bringing the ship to a
> hover after an approach you had a wind gust that pushed the ship into
> a right yaw that was so extreme you had to add FULL left pedal to stop
> it. I've flown R22s for a while and I have NEVER approached the need
> for full left pedal. Ever. The R22 has very good tail rotor
> characteristics as opposed to some of the Bell's and others that can
> get you in trouble quickly with their less than ideal tail rotor
> designs that allow tail rotor vortices to form quickly in the wrong
> wind conditions, so I find it incredible that you got the ship so
> twisted that it was necessary for you to bottom the left pedal to get
> the ship back in trim.
> And that your CFI never took over??!!!!!! Maybe you just thought you
> used all left pedal? If not, get your ship checked out pronto, though
> I seriously doubt that you used all left pedal as you stated. Your CFI
> would have been on the controls very fast had this actually been the
> case or either he's wanting to get a new ship!
> You also mention "shimmy and shaking" all the way down during an
> approach. Are you getting into a settling w/ power situation? If you
> are experiencing violent shaking let me assure you this isn't normal.
> A little vibration for sure, but nothing like you are describing, or
> is this again a bit of exageration on your part? Not trying to provoke
> you here, as I have been there myself (learning to fly helis) and it
> can be VERY tense at times. It's just that this Google Rotorcraft
> forum seems to be frequented by mainly remote control helicopter
> enthusists and the Rotorway/Safari/experimental deathwish crowd that
> have very limited knowledge about flying and I would really want to
> make ceratin that a novice flyer like yourself will give an accurate
> account here so as not to confuse all the other readers here who have
> not became heli pilots.
> Please understand I'm not trying to ridicule or be derisive of your
> descriptions, I've been right where you are and I know the feelings
> very well. I'd just like to urge you to write a diary with less
> adjectives and bluster than what you are sometimes doing now. You are
> (inadvertatntly I'm sure)making it sound as if some of your flights
> are more akin to "The Right Stuff" movie footage than true flight
> training, especially the "full left pedal" and "shaking" stuff. Either
> that or your instructor needs to do a better job of instructing as I
> can assure you this is not the way it's done.
> Regards,
> Mark
> N26394

[helicopterandy]

Hello,
Sorry if I offended you with the "death-wish statement". That was over
the top but the accident records speak for themselves. The rate for
accidents per hour flown for the experimentals FAR exceeds any other
helicopter. And please don't start going on and on about there being
more Robinsons w/ wrecks than experimentals. Of course there is. There
are 100's more Robbies in the air than there will ever be flying
experimentals. That would be like saying a Ford Taurus is more
dangerous to drive than a Lamborgini, since more Tauruses have
accidents than Lamborginis. So please don't even try to go there.
Your Safari may be well and good and if you and your MR. TEST PILOT
friend (test pilot, that tells me he's more than capable of accepting
risk) then more power to ya! I for one love my life and wouldn't fly
in your Safari/Rotorway/whatever experimental at gunpoint. Never,
ever. I don't care who "assembled" it.
Not trying to put you down, just my opine about these scary machines.
Regards,
Mark

"Kathryn & Stuart Fields" > wrote in message >...
> Andy: I'm sure that you follow your own advice and don't shoot your mouth
> off about something of which you have little knowledge. I'm therefore
> assuming that you have time in both the Safaris and Rotorways. I would be
> curious to hear of your experiences in these ships. I'm more than willing to
> listen and learn from someone who has more experience and knowledge than I
> have. I have PIC time in Schweitzer 300CB, the Bell 47, a Safari, with some
> stick time in a Brantly, Rotorway, and even the Groen Bros. new two seat
> gyrocopter; and in the old days built and taught myself to fly a Benson
> gyrocopter. I've had a PPSEL since the late 50's and my PPH for 3yrs. I
> just finished showing my Safari, that I built and in which have accumulated
> 200hrs, to the Chief Test Pilot Instructor from the Test Pilot School in
> Mojave CA.. He is looking forward to a ride in the ship. I think that this
> guy qualifies as an expert on helicopters. He has written a well received
> book on helicopters. I believe that he knows quite a bit more about the
> aerodynamics and flight characteristics of more different helicopters than
> most people will ever see, let alone fly. Does this qualify him as a member
> of the "death wish crowd that have very limited knowledg about flyin"?
> I think that in some cases you have offered pretty good advice that you
> don't find necessary to follow yourself.
> Stu Fields Safari pilot.
> "helicopterandy" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I don't post here often but I have read w/ interest your diary of
> > flight lessons. A few questions if you don't mind:
> > Why are you cooling down an R22 ( I assume from your threads that is
> > what you're flying) for five minutes before you disengage the clutch?
> > R22 checklists state a 2 minute cooldown before clutch disengage. The
> > factory says it doesn't need even 2 minutes if you get substantial
> > cylinder head temp reduction in less time. I cannot imagine a flight
> > school allowing for one second more cooldown than is required by the
> > factory. Unless you are paying for time on the skids, instead of
> > collective time. If so, if you are paying for total Hobbs time, they
> > may be screwing you, check it out. No R22 needs a five minute cooldown
> > before clutch release. Just two minutes for coolodown, then release
> > clutch for thirty seconds, then get mixture guard off and pull mixture
> > out. Call Robinson Helicopters yourself and check it out. You may be
> > asked for that additional cooldown time simply to run up your tab if
> > you are paying for Hobbs time.
> > Also, in one of your posts you state that after bringing the ship to a
> > hover after an approach you had a wind gust that pushed the ship into
> > a right yaw that was so extreme you had to add FULL left pedal to stop
> > it. I've flown R22s for a while and I have NEVER approached the need
> > for full left pedal. Ever. The R22 has very good tail rotor
> > characteristics as opposed to some of the Bell's and others that can
> > get you in trouble quickly with their less than ideal tail rotor
> > designs that allow tail rotor vortices to form quickly in the wrong
> > wind conditions, so I find it incredible that you got the ship so
> > twisted that it was necessary for you to bottom the left pedal to get
> > the ship back in trim.
> > And that your CFI never took over??!!!!!! Maybe you just thought you
> > used all left pedal? If not, get your ship checked out pronto, though
> > I seriously doubt that you used all left pedal as you stated. Your CFI
> > would have been on the controls very fast had this actually been the
> > case or either he's wanting to get a new ship!
> > You also mention "shimmy and shaking" all the way down during an
> > approach. Are you getting into a settling w/ power situation? If you
> > are experiencing violent shaking let me assure you this isn't normal.
> > A little vibration for sure, but nothing like you are describing, or
> > is this again a bit of exageration on your part? Not trying to provoke
> > you here, as I have been there myself (learning to fly helis) and it
> > can be VERY tense at times. It's just that this Google Rotorcraft
> > forum seems to be frequented by mainly remote control helicopter
> > enthusists and the Rotorway/Safari/experimental deathwish crowd that
> > have very limited knowledge about flying and I would really want to
> > make ceratin that a novice flyer like yourself will give an accurate
> > account here so as not to confuse all the other readers here who have
> > not became heli pilots.
> > Please understand I'm not trying to ridicule or be derisive of your
> > descriptions, I've been right where you are and I know the feelings
> > very well. I'd just like to urge you to write a diary with less
> > adjectives and bluster than what you are sometimes doing now. You are
> > (inadvertatntly I'm sure)making it sound as if some of your flights
> > are more akin to "The Right Stuff" movie footage than true flight
> > training, especially the "full left pedal" and "shaking" stuff. Either
> > that or your instructor needs to do a better job of instructing as I
> > can assure you this is not the way it's done.
> > Regards,
> > Mark
> > N26394