Why did this helicopter crash ? [Archive]

helicopterandy

September 7th 04, 05:04 PM

"Ove" > wrote in message >...
> Maybe a hydraulic failure (lost the pressure) ?
>
> Ove
> "Iwan Bogels" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
> > (www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure that
> > caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail rotor
> > failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.
> >
> > For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete
> write
> > off.
> >
> > Iwan Bogels
> > DAPPA
> >
> >

The early reports are loss of tail rotor effectiveness. Look at the
video again. He starts an auto (obviously) and once near the bulidings
he pulls collective and has no tail rotor thrust to correct problem.
Read the NTSB prelims.

helicopterandy

September 7th 04, 05:11 PM

"Ove" > wrote in message >...
> Maybe a hydraulic failure (lost the pressure) ?
>
> Ove
> "Iwan Bogels" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
> > (www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure that
> > caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail rotor
> > failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.
> >
> > For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete
> write
> > off.
> >
> > Iwan Bogels
> > DAPPA
> >
> >

Sorry for the multiple posts here. But on my first reply I meant to
say after he began the auto he had to pull collective when he neared
the buildings rooftops and he obviously didn't have any tail rotor
thrust to manage that collective pull. Notice how the heli yaws when
he arrests his descent. Read the initial NTSB reports.

Gene Seibel

September 7th 04, 06:03 PM

SelwayKid

September 7th 04, 06:16 PM

"Iwan Bogels" > wrote in message >...
> Hi everybody,
>
> This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
> (www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure that
> caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail rotor
> failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.
>
> For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete write
> off.
>
> Iwan Bogels
> DAPPA

Iwan
Of course it's futile to 2nd guess the cause of this accident but its
obviously a mechanical malfunction and my guess its a hydraulic
failure. At first glance it appeared to be tail rotor failure but
given the gyrations, it is more than that. So, my best guess or WAG
(wild ass guess) is a near complete hydraulic failure with resultant
crazy control responses.
I must emphasize I only have 8000 hours in helicopters (13-14,000 in
fixed wing) and very little in the AStar so its only my best guess.
Ol Shy & Bashful
p.s. I'd like to see more on your website but as you know, its down? I
am a proponent on what you are doing for instructional purposes and
accident prevention. If you have another way to access your clips
please let me know?

Sean Trost

September 7th 04, 06:31 PM

ummn Andy,
Correct me if I'm wronge but if the helicopter is in an auto then the
rotor is disengaged from the powere source, hence no tourqe to induce
the yaw when the collective is pulled.
all the best
Sean

helicopterandy wrote:
> "Ove" > wrote in message >...
>
>>Maybe a hydraulic failure (lost the pressure) ?
>>
>>Ove
>>"Iwan Bogels" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>Hi everybody,
>>>
>>>This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
>>>(www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure that
>>>caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail rotor
>>>failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.
>>>
>>>For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete
>>
>> write
>>
>>>off.
>>>
>>>Iwan Bogels
>>>DAPPA
>>>
>>>
>
>
> Sorry for the multiple posts here. But on my first reply I meant to
> say after he began the auto he had to pull collective when he neared
> the buildings rooftops and he obviously didn't have any tail rotor
> thrust to manage that collective pull. Notice how the heli yaws when
> he arrests his descent. Read the initial NTSB reports.

Sean Trost

September 7th 04, 06:44 PM

sorry lack of coffee after a long shift.

wronge = wrong
powere = power

Sean Trost wrote:

> ummn Andy,
> Correct me if I'm wronge but if the helicopter is in an auto then the
> rotor is disengaged from the powere source, hence no tourqe to induce
> the yaw when the collective is pulled.
> all the best
> Sean
>
> helicopterandy wrote:
>
>> "Ove" > wrote in message
>> >...
>>
>>> Maybe a hydraulic failure (lost the pressure) ?
>>>
>>> Ove
>>> "Iwan Bogels" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Hi everybody,
>>>>
>>>> This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
>>>> (www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure
>>>> that
>>>> caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail
>>>> rotor
>>>> failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.
>>>>
>>>> For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete
>>>
>>>
>>> write
>>>
>>>> off.
>>>>
>>>> Iwan Bogels
>>>> DAPPA
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry for the multiple posts here. But on my first reply I meant to
>> say after he began the auto he had to pull collective when he neared
>> the buildings rooftops and he obviously didn't have any tail rotor
>> thrust to manage that collective pull. Notice how the heli yaws when
>> he arrests his descent. Read the initial NTSB reports.
>
>

Sean Trost

September 7th 04, 06:46 PM

sorry lack of coffee after a long shift.

wronge = wrong
powere = power

Sean Trost wrote:

Shiver Me Timbers

September 7th 04, 08:26 PM

TO THE GROUP..... Regarding Iwan Bogels" >

> Michael > wrote:

> As it is, you have a freak show and little else.

The above quoted comments was made today by another poster,
in another newsgroup.

For the last number of days Iwan Bogels" >
has crossposted the same or similar message into a variety of
groups like this inviting you to visit his site, and view his crash
videos, so that you may become educated, and learn from the
mistakes of others.

In the piloting newsgroups he has been trying to justify his freakshow
with a number of the regulars who surprising enough for the most part
didn't see all that much wrong with it.

For the groups information.

A few years ago when the reality TV programs started to hit the air,
there was someone named Jeremy Peevers ( I believe ) and others
who were posting to the aviation newsgroups looking for footage
similar to what Mr. Bogels is showing on his website.

In the rec.aviation.homebuilt, and rec.aviation.rotorcraft groups
(where I generally lurk) they were basically told to **** off by the
majority or regulars who were offended that someone was looking for
death and destruction videos so they could be shown of national TV for
a profit under the guise of entertainment.

I personally asked on numerous times (in the group) if Real TV would be
interested in clear, well lit, sharply focused footage, of a young girl
being decapitated by a helicopter rotor and how much they would be
willing to pay.

That usually shut them up.

They didn't want videos of people out actually enjoying a day at the
airport, with shots of airplanes taking off, flying and landing.

They wanted videos of total destruction, fireballs, cartwheels,
well ........ you get the picture.

The other day Iwan Bogels" > crossposted
his message into this set of newsgroups looking for hits to his site.

alt.disasters.aviation, fr.rec.aviation, rec.aviation.military,
rec.aviation.piloting, rec.aviation.soaring

Yesterday he decided to crosspost his message into this set of
newsgroups.

alt.aviation.safety, aus.aviation, rec.aviation.homebuilt,
rec.aviation.ifr, rec.aviation.student

And today he is crossposting to this set of newsgroups

rec.aviation.rotorcraft, rec.aviation.student, rec.models.rc.helicopter

God knows where he will be tomorrow.

I'm certainly not telling anybody what they should or shouldn't look at
on the Web but let's not delude ourselves into believing the pitch from
Mr. Bogels this his site is for educational purposes so that pilots,
etc., can learn from the mistakes of others by watching these videos.

As another poster has stated..... And I am quoting him below.

> As it is, you have a freak show and little else.

Mr. Bogel...... In my humble opinion the above quoted statement is
hitting the nail squarly on the head and you can dress your site up any
way you want, and explain anyway you want.... but in my opinion you
are promoting a freak show site and nothing else.

*******************************************

To the Rotorcraft group.

When Mr. Bogel first started crossposting his message he was offering
many video clips including crashes of commercial planes, military
jets., civilian aircraft etc. CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG.

Due to the heavy traffic he went over his bandwidth allocation so now
he is currently just offering one clip.

Since he is in a helicopter newsgroup today, he is offering a
helicopter crash video.

From his website.......

> If you have additional material for us, or can point us in the right direction
> where to find it, please let us know at

You will note the interesting name for his e-mail addy.

To the group let me repeat myself------> As I have clearly stated
above, I am not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't look
at, or how anyone should act or behave..... The comments above
are strictly my own and the information posted is for the groups
general information.

You can all make up your own mind and voice your own opinions
as you wish about Mr. Bogel and his website.

lance smith

September 7th 04, 10:24 PM

Iwan Bogels

September 8th 04, 12:05 AM

Dear,

Thanks for your educated guess. I'm impressed with your flight hours ! I
don't even have that many hours in my car.... :-)

Right now I have more than 100 videos of aviation mishaps, accidents and
crashes, and that number is still growing since I have uploaded the website.
As far as I can check the video is still available at
www.dappa.nl/crash.htm. Please check again and let me know when you (or any
others) still have problems viewing the footage via the website. More videos
will follow soon.

Best regards,
Iwan Bogels

"SelwayKid" > schreef in bericht
om...
> "Iwan Bogels" > wrote in message
>...
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
> > (www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure that
> > caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail
rotor
> > failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.
> >
> > For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete
write
> > off.
> >
> > Iwan Bogels
> > DAPPA
>
> Iwan
> Of course it's futile to 2nd guess the cause of this accident but its
> obviously a mechanical malfunction and my guess its a hydraulic
> failure. At first glance it appeared to be tail rotor failure but
> given the gyrations, it is more than that. So, my best guess or WAG
> (wild ass guess) is a near complete hydraulic failure with resultant
> crazy control responses.
> I must emphasize I only have 8000 hours in helicopters (13-14,000 in
> fixed wing) and very little in the AStar so its only my best guess.
> Ol Shy & Bashful
> p.s. I'd like to see more on your website but as you know, its down? I
> am a proponent on what you are doing for instructional purposes and
> accident prevention. If you have another way to access your clips
> please let me know?

helicopterandy

September 8th 04, 01:10 AM

SEAN,
I DIDN'T MEAN HE ROLLED OFF THE POWER, ONLY THAT HE LOWERED COLLECTIVE
TO FULL DOWN TO COUNTER THE LOSS OF TAIL ROTOR. BUT HE MAY HAVE ROLLED
OFF POWER (WHO KNOWS) BUT THEN HE HAD TO ROLL POWER BACK ON BEFORE HE
PULLED IN POWER(COLLECTIVE) AGAIN TO ARREST HIS DESCENT AS HE NEARED
THE ROOFTOPS. THEN HE GOT THE SEVERE YAW AGAIN. IF HE DIDN'T HAVE THE
POWER BACK ON WHEN HE PULLED COLLECTIVE THE BOTTOM WOULD HAVE FELL OUT
OF THE SHIP VERY QUICKLY AND HE WOULD HAVE PUT THAT SHIP THROUGH THOSE
ROOFS INSTEAD OF ON TOP OF THEM.
REGARDS,
MARK (ANDY IS MY MIDDLE NAME)

>
> Sean Trost wrote:
>
> > ummn Andy,
> > Correct me if I'm wronge but if the helicopter is in an auto then the
> > rotor is disengaged from the powere source, hence no tourqe to induce
> > the yaw when the collective is pulled.
> > all the best
> > Sean
> >
> > helicopterandy wrote:
> >
> >> "Ove" > wrote in message
> >> >...
> >>
> >>> Maybe a hydraulic failure (lost the pressure) ?
> >>>
> >>> Ove
> >>> "Iwan Bogels" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>
> >>>> Hi everybody,
> >>>>
> >>>> This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
> >>>> (www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure
> >>>> that
> >>>> caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail
> >>>> rotor
> >>>> failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.
> >>>>
> >>>> For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> write
> >>>
> >>>> off.
> >>>>
> >>>> Iwan Bogels
> >>>> DAPPA
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Sorry for the multiple posts here. But on my first reply I meant to
> >> say after he began the auto he had to pull collective when he neared
> >> the buildings rooftops and he obviously didn't have any tail rotor
> >> thrust to manage that collective pull. Notice how the heli yaws when
> >> he arrests his descent. Read the initial NTSB reports.
> >
> >

helicopterandy

September 8th 04, 04:56 AM

Sean,
SORRY IF I CAUSED YOU TO MISUNDERSTAND MY EXPALNATION. I MEANT THE
PILOT OBVIOUSLY LOWERED COLLECTIVE TO FULL DOWN TO STOP THE YAW FROM
TAIL ROTOR FAILURE. NOT FULL AUTO. HE MAY HAVE ACTUALLY ROLLED OFF
THROTTLE TO SPLIT NEEDLES THOUGH I DOUBT IT. HE PROBABLY JUST WENT
FULL DOWN UNTIL NEAR THE ROOFTOPS WHERE HE HAD TO FLAIR AND PULL IN
SOME COLLECTIVE. THAT'S WHEN HE GOT THE BAD YAW DUE TO THE FACT HE WAS
ADDING POWER WITHOUT ANY TAIL ROTOR THRUST.

Sean Trost > wrote in message >...
> ummn Andy,
> Correct me if I'm wronge but if the helicopter is in an auto then the
> rotor is disengaged from the powere source, hence no tourqe to induce
> the yaw when the collective is pulled.
> all the best
> Sean
>
> helicopterandy wrote:
> > "Ove" > wrote in message >...
> >
> >>Maybe a hydraulic failure (lost the pressure) ?
> >>
> >>Ove
> >>"Iwan Bogels" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >>>Hi everybody,
> >>>
> >>>This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
> >>>(www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure that
> >>>caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail rotor
> >>>failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.
> >>>
> >>>For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete
> >>
> >> write
> >>
> >>>off.
> >>>
> >>>Iwan Bogels
> >>>DAPPA
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> > Sorry for the multiple posts here. But on my first reply I meant to
> > say after he began the auto he had to pull collective when he neared
> > the buildings rooftops and he obviously didn't have any tail rotor
> > thrust to manage that collective pull. Notice how the heli yaws when
> > he arrests his descent. Read the initial NTSB reports.

TECHOPS

September 8th 04, 06:24 AM

OK...let's play CLUE:

AEROSPATIALE helicopter...

COLLECTIVE PULL...

L E F T yaw...

STILL GUESSIN'?

tony roberts

September 8th 04, 07:35 AM

HELLO MARK ANDY
IT REALLY IS TRUE THEN THAT FLYING HELICOPTERS MAKES YOU DEAF?
IF YES, WE SYMPATHISE.
IF NO, STOP SHOUTING.

TONY
WHO CAN'T HEAR TO0 WELL OVER ALL OF THESE ROTORS

In article >,
(helicopterandy) wrote:

> SEAN,
> I DIDN'T MEAN HE ROLLED OFF THE POWER, ONLY THAT HE LOWERED COLLECTIVE
> TO FULL DOWN TO COUNTER THE LOSS OF TAIL ROTOR. BUT HE MAY HAVE ROLLED
> OFF POWER (WHO KNOWS) BUT THEN HE HAD TO ROLL POWER BACK ON BEFORE HE
> PULLED IN POWER(COLLECTIVE) AGAIN TO ARREST HIS DESCENT AS HE NEARED
> THE ROOFTOPS. THEN HE GOT THE SEVERE YAW AGAIN. IF HE DIDN'T HAVE THE
> POWER BACK ON WHEN HE PULLED COLLECTIVE THE BOTTOM WOULD HAVE FELL OUT
> OF THE SHIP VERY QUICKLY AND HE WOULD HAVE PUT THAT SHIP THROUGH THOSE
> ROOFS INSTEAD OF ON TOP OF THEM.
> REGARDS,
> MARK (ANDY IS MY MIDDLE NAME)
>
>
>
> >
> > Sean Trost wrote:
> >
> > > ummn Andy,
> > > Correct me if I'm wronge but if the helicopter is in an auto then the
> > > rotor is disengaged from the powere source, hence no tourqe to induce
> > > the yaw when the collective is pulled.
> > > all the best
> > > Sean
> > >
> > > helicopterandy wrote:
> > >
> > >> "Ove" > wrote in message
> > >> >...
> > >>
> > >>> Maybe a hydraulic failure (lost the pressure) ?
> > >>>
> > >>> Ove
> > >>> "Iwan Bogels" > wrote in message
> > >>> ...
> > >>>
> > >>>> Hi everybody,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
> > >>>> (www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure
> > >>>> that
> > >>>> caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail
> > >>>> rotor
> > >>>> failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> write
> > >>>
> > >>>> off.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Iwan Bogels
> > >>>> DAPPA
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Sorry for the multiple posts here. But on my first reply I meant to
> > >> say after he began the auto he had to pull collective when he neared
> > >> the buildings rooftops and he obviously didn't have any tail rotor
> > >> thrust to manage that collective pull. Notice how the heli yaws when
> > >> he arrests his descent. Read the initial NTSB reports.
> > >
> > >

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

tony roberts

September 8th 04, 07:37 AM

Yes. He was trying to hit some dumb asshole like you and missed.
But he'll get ya next time!

Tony

>,
"Iwan Bogels" > wrote:

> Hi everybody,
>
> This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
> (www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure that
> caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail rotor
> failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.
>
> For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete write
> off.
>
> Iwan Bogels
> DAPPA

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

Beav

September 8th 04, 10:04 PM

"helicopterandy" > wrote in message
om...
> SEAN,
> I DIDN'T MEAN HE ROLLED OFF THE POWER, ONLY THAT HE LOWERED COLLECTIVE
> TO FULL DOWN TO COUNTER THE LOSS OF TAIL ROTOR.

Loweriing collective wouldn't do anything for the tail rotor action. If the
tail rotor DID fail, then the pilot would need to remove the TORQUE whivh
the tail rotor now can't counter, and that's when the rollong power off
would come in handy.

BUT HE MAY HAVE ROLLED
> OFF POWER (WHO KNOWS) BUT THEN HE HAD TO ROLL POWER BACK ON BEFORE HE
> PULLED IN POWER(COLLECTIVE) AGAIN TO ARREST HIS DESCENT AS HE NEARED
> THE ROOFTOPS.

This is a turbine heli. Rolling power on and off "that" quickly isn't going
to happen. I suspect the pilot knows that though.

THEN HE GOT THE SEVERE YAW AGAIN. IF HE DIDN'T HAVE THE
> POWER BACK ON WHEN HE PULLED COLLECTIVE THE BOTTOM WOULD HAVE FELL OUT
> OF THE SHIP VERY QUICKLY

If he had a tail rotor problem, the LAST thing he'd do is add power.Well
maybe if he liked flying a Waltzer he'd add power, but if he's already cut
power, he woudn't be in a hurry to re-apply it (even if he could)

AND HE WOULD HAVE PUT THAT SHIP THROUGH THOSE
> ROOFS INSTEAD OF ON TOP OF THEM.

I think he was simply lucky. I don't think a lot of what followed the
initial departure was down to skill at all, but we all need a bit of luck
now and again.

--
Beav

Please note my E-mail address is "beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com"
(with the obvious changes)

Beavisland now lives at
www.beavisoriginal.co.uk

helicopterandy

September 9th 04, 10:12 AM

"Beav" > wrote in message >...
> "helicopterandy" > wrote in message
> om...
> > SEAN,
> > I DIDN'T MEAN HE ROLLED OFF THE POWER, ONLY THAT HE LOWERED COLLECTIVE
> > TO FULL DOWN TO COUNTER THE LOSS OF TAIL ROTOR.
>
> Loweriing collective wouldn't do anything for the tail rotor action. If the
> tail rotor DID fail, then the pilot would need to remove the TORQUE whivh
> the tail rotor now can't counter, and that's when the rollong power off
> would come in handy.

Beavis(boy, does your name fit!!),
How long have you been studying helicopters? Five minutes? Saying as
you did above that "lowering the collective wouldn't do anything for
the tail rotor action" speaks volumes of your obvious lack of even the
basics of flying helis.
But then you do a 180 and say that "that's when rolling off the
throttle would come in handy"... Let me assure you of one thing above
all else, YOU NEVER roll off the throttle unless the collective is in
a full down position. EVER.
If I have to explain this to you then you really shouldn't try to get
involved in a discussion you know ZERO about.
Sorry, I guess you cannot learn that with your remote control can you?
Do us all a favor and go buy a Rotorcraft Flying Handbook and READ IT.
Your stupidity is exactly why this site is so poor. Please don't come
to our Yahoo group.

Regards,
Mark

>
>
> BUT HE MAY HAVE ROLLED
> > OFF POWER (WHO KNOWS) BUT THEN HE HAD TO ROLL POWER BACK ON BEFORE HE
> > PULLED IN POWER(COLLECTIVE) AGAIN TO ARREST HIS DESCENT AS HE NEARED
> > THE ROOFTOPS.
>
> This is a turbine heli. Rolling power on and off "that" quickly isn't going
> to happen. I suspect the pilot knows that though.
>
> THEN HE GOT THE SEVERE YAW AGAIN. IF HE DIDN'T HAVE THE
> > POWER BACK ON WHEN HE PULLED COLLECTIVE THE BOTTOM WOULD HAVE FELL OUT
> > OF THE SHIP VERY QUICKLY
>
> If he had a tail rotor problem, the LAST thing he'd do is add power.Well
> maybe if he liked flying a Waltzer he'd add power, but if he's already cut
> power, he woudn't be in a hurry to re-apply it (even if he could)
>
> AND HE WOULD HAVE PUT THAT SHIP THROUGH THOSE
> > ROOFS INSTEAD OF ON TOP OF THEM.
>
> I think he was simply lucky. I don't think a lot of what followed the
> initial departure was down to skill at all, but we all need a bit of luck
> now and again.
>
>
> --
> Beav
>
>
> Please note my E-mail address is "beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com"
> (with the obvious changes)
>
> Beavisland now lives at
> www.beavisoriginal.co.uk

Mark

September 9th 04, 03:41 PM

So why is it that you never reduce throttle without lowering collective?
Loss off main rotor momentum?

Jim Carriere

September 9th 04, 05:33 PM

helicopterandy wrote:
> throttle would come in handy"... Let me assure you of one thing above
> all else, YOU NEVER roll off the throttle unless the collective is in
> a full down position. EVER.

Hmmm! I have my H-57 (Bell Jetranger) NATOPS manual in front of me.
Emergency procedures, Complete loss of tail rotor thrust, step 1:
"Twist grip - Close"

Never say never. Ever.

Shiver Me Timbers

September 9th 04, 06:48 PM

> Jim Carriere > wrote:

> Hmmm! I have my H-57 (Bell Jetranger) NATOPS manual in front of me.
> Emergency procedures, Complete loss of tail rotor thrust, step 1:
> "Twist grip - Close"
>
> Never say never. Ever.

Sounds like handy Randy should take his own advice
and stay out of "OUR" Yahoo group himself.

Beav

September 9th 04, 08:03 PM

"helicopterandy" > wrote in message
om...
> "Beav" > wrote in message
>...
> > "helicopterandy" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > SEAN,
> > > I DIDN'T MEAN HE ROLLED OFF THE POWER, ONLY THAT HE LOWERED COLLECTIVE
> > > TO FULL DOWN TO COUNTER THE LOSS OF TAIL ROTOR.
> >
> > Loweriing collective wouldn't do anything for the tail rotor action. If
the
> > tail rotor DID fail, then the pilot would need to remove the TORQUE
whivh
> > the tail rotor now can't counter, and that's when the rollong power off
> > would come in handy.
>
> Beavis(boy, does your name fit!!),

Oooh, never heard THAT before.

> How long have you been studying helicopters? Five minutes? Saying as
> you did above that "lowering the collective wouldn't do anything for
> the tail rotor action" speaks volumes of your obvious lack of even the
> basics of flying helis.

Oh yeah? Well explain to me how lowering the collective without reducing
power would affect the effect (action) of the tail and improve matters in
the scenrio. If anything, lowering collective would result in a reduced load
on the rotor system and an INCREASE in rotor speed and a corresponding
increase in tail rotor speed, which as you'll recal is no longer
controllable, so the net result would be in increase in yaw rate. Lowering
collective alone would NOT do anything for the uncontrolled yaw which our
intrepid pilot was encountering.

> But then you do a 180 and say that "that's when rolling off the
> throttle would come in handy"...

And that's exactly when it WILL come in handy. If the tail rotor failure
resulted in the heli still turning against torque, (and it did) there are
only two ways to help control the yaw. One is to use the anti-torque pedlas
(not going to happen if they're not doing their job) and the other is to
reduce power/torque. that usually happens when you remove some power.

Let me assure you of one thing above
> all else, YOU NEVER roll off the throttle unless the collective is in
> a full down position. EVER.

I imagine that when faced with a looming building, I'd let that particular
rule go by the wayside. I suspect the damage caused by an overspeed might be
"slightly" less than the amount of damage a building makes.

> If I have to explain this to you then you really shouldn't try to get
> involved in a discussion you know ZERO about.

I'll try hard to remember that.

> Sorry, I guess you cannot learn that with your remote control can you?

I don't need to.

> Do us all a favor and go buy a Rotorcraft Flying Handbook and READ IT.
> Your stupidity is exactly why this site is so poor.

If this site os so poor, what're you doing here?

Please don't come
> to our Yahoo group.

I'll come where I want if it's all the same to you.

--
Beav

Please note my E-mail address is "beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com"
(with the obvious changes)

Beavisland now lives at
www.beavisoriginal.co.uk

Steve R.

September 9th 04, 08:05 PM

"Jim Carriere" > wrote in message
...
> helicopterandy wrote:
>> throttle would come in handy"... Let me assure you of one thing above
>> all else, YOU NEVER roll off the throttle unless the collective is in
>> a full down position. EVER.
>
> Hmmm! I have my H-57 (Bell Jetranger) NATOPS manual in front of me.
> Emergency procedures, Complete loss of tail rotor thrust, step 1: "Twist
> grip - Close"
>
> Never say never. Ever.
>

Well, I agree he may have come across a little sharp on the "never" part and
you make a good point on the "never say never" point. I try to live by that
one but sometimes I slip a little. ;-)

Having said that, what does your H-57 manual say you'd better be doing very
shortly "after" closing the twist grip? If it doesn't say something about
lowering the collective, I'm not sure I'd trust much else it says. :-o :-D

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

helicopterandy

September 10th 04, 04:32 AM

> > How long have you been studying helicopters? Five minutes? Saying as
> > you did above that "lowering the collective wouldn't do anything for
> > the tail rotor action" speaks volumes of your obvious lack of even the
> > basics of flying helis.
>
> Oh yeah? Well explain to me how lowering the collective without reducing
> power would affect the effect (action) of the tail and improve matters in
> the scenrio. If anything, lowering collective would result in a reduced load
> on the rotor system and an INCREASE in rotor speed and a corresponding
> increase in tail rotor speed, which as you'll recal is no longer
> controllable, so the net result would be in increase in yaw rate. Lowering
> collective alone would NOT do anything for the uncontrolled yaw which our
> intrepid pilot was encountering.

BEAVIS,
YOUR ABOVE POST IS SO WRONG AND MISGUIDED THAT I WON'T BOTHER
RESPONDING TO YOU ANY FURTHER AFTER THIS ONE. BUT DO YOURSELF ONE
FAVOR BEFORE YOU AGAIN MAKE AN IDIOT OUT OF YOURSELF HERE:
ASK ANY HELICOPTER PILOT WHO FLYS A SHIP THAT HAS A COUNTER-CLOCKWISE
ROTATION MAIN ROTOR WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU LOWER COLLECTIVE? HINT: YOU
GET A NICE YAW TO THE LEFT SINCE YOU ARE TAKING TORQUE/POWER OUT OF
THE SYSTEM AND SO YOU NEED TO APPLY RIGHT PEDAL. THAT RIGHT PEDAL
TAKES THE PITCH/THRUST OUT OF THE TAIL ROTOR.
WHEN YOU LOWER COLLECTIVE YOU ARE REDUCING POWER, MORON. STOP THINKING
THAT POWER IS ONLY REDUCED BY REDUCING ROTOR SPEED. GO STUDY JUST A
BIT.
ONE MORE THING, THE FIRST THING MOST PILOT OPERATING HANDBOOKS STATE
IS THAT IN THE EVENT OF LOSS OF TAIL ROTOR EFFECTIVENESS IN FLIGHT THE
FIRST THING THE PILOT SHOULD DO IS LOWER COLLECTIVE.
YOU ARE TRYING TO ARGUE ALGEBRA WITH A MATH PRO WHEN YOU OBVIOUSLY
DON'T KNOW WHAT 2 PLUS 2 EQUALS.
GO BACK TO YOUR TOYS.
REGARDS,
MARK
PS
HOW MANY PIC HOURS DO YOU HAVE IN HELICOPERS? I'D GUESS ZERO. NO WAIT,
I'D GUARANTEE THAT YOU HAVE ZERO. He he

Shiver Me Timbers

September 10th 04, 05:30 AM

> helicopterandy > wrote:

> GO BACK TO YOUR TOYS.
> REGARDS,
> MARK

To the Group......... Yunno folks I've been lurking in this group for a
number of years now, posting under various names now and again.

Like most in this group I try to keep a civil tongue in my head and
since I'm only an armchair pilot I sure wouldn't try to argue
technicalities of flight, etc.

I'm basically a knife and forker, a gladhander, who does what he can to
promote a little chitchat, I pat people on the back for their
accomplishments, and achievements.... blah blah blah blah blah.

But yunno folks I just gotta say it..... In the years that I've been in
this group I don't believe I have ever seen anyone like Mark who has
just shown up in this group as a relative newcomer who has had such
a chip on their shoulders.

Mark I don't know what your problem is but Beavis has been a somewhat
regular in this group for some years and you are the first person to my
knowledge who has publicly attacked him, just like your the only person
who has attacked Kevin, who is doing nothing more than sharing his
experiences as a student, which for one, I am personally gratefull for
his efforts.

You post IN ALL CAPS and have been told at least once that doing so is
considered boorish, and bad manners (netiquette), but that doesn't seem
to sink in or make a difference to you.

So before this goes too far, why don't you come back to this group and
tell all of us specifically what it is that you personally are looking
for in this group. What do you expect to get out of it, and what are
you willing to contribute.

So far if appears that your are spoiling for a fight with whoever is
handy, and with all due respect ( in my personal opinion ) you are not
going to make friends, or gain the respect of too many people if you
continue to carry on the way you are doing.

Max of Mad

September 10th 04, 07:48 AM

helicopterandy wrote:
>
> BEAVIS,
> YOUR ABOVE POST IS SO WRONG AND MISGUIDED THAT I WON'T BOTHER
> RESPONDING TO YOU ANY FURTHER AFTER THIS ONE. BUT DO YOURSELF ONE

(snip)

You are full of it.

Before you go off the hook, please understand that I mean you no
disrespect, yet.

Don't yell. Typing in all caps is deafening.

Don't say something is wrong and misguided and idiotic without giving an
immediate explanation.

From what I am able to gather from your post, you don't acknowledge the
fact that the rudder pedals are useless. In model helicopter terms, the
left and right rudder are useless. In 'real' helicopter terms, again
the rudder pedals are useless...

What exactly is your problem with his statement? Please state it civilly.

Max of Mad
--
Leave a tone after the message

Kevin R

September 10th 04, 07:59 AM

"Shiver Me Timbers" > wrote in message
...
>> helicopterandy > wrote:
>
>> GO BACK TO YOUR TOYS.
>> REGARDS,
>> MARK
>
> To the Group......... Yunno folks I've been lurking in this group for a
<SNIP>
Before this goes to far this has been cross posted to both full size and
model helicopters and we are are areguing why we are getting slagged off "in
our group" but we are posting to "thier group as well" just bear it it mind
before all the toys are missing from your pram
and as for helicopterandy "PLONK" what a prat???
Keep up the good work Beavis and just kill file him hes not worth the typing

Beav

September 10th 04, 12:26 PM

"helicopterandy" > wrote in message
om...
> > > How long have you been studying helicopters? Five minutes? Saying as
> > > you did above that "lowering the collective wouldn't do anything for
> > > the tail rotor action" speaks volumes of your obvious lack of even the
> > > basics of flying helis.
> >
> > Oh yeah? Well explain to me how lowering the collective without reducing
> > power would affect the effect (action) of the tail and improve matters
in
> > the scenrio. If anything, lowering collective would result in a reduced
load
> > on the rotor system and an INCREASE in rotor speed and a corresponding
> > increase in tail rotor speed, which as you'll recal is no longer
> > controllable, so the net result would be in increase in yaw rate.
Lowering
> > collective alone would NOT do anything for the uncontrolled yaw which
our
> > intrepid pilot was encountering.
>
> BEAVIS,

Is there REALLY any need to shout?

> YOUR ABOVE POST IS SO WRONG AND MISGUIDED THAT I WON'T BOTHER
> RESPONDING TO YOU ANY FURTHER AFTER THIS ONE.

Your choice.

BUT DO YOURSELF ONE
> FAVOR BEFORE YOU AGAIN MAKE AN IDIOT OUT OF YOURSELF HERE:
> ASK ANY HELICOPTER PILOT WHO FLYS A SHIP THAT HAS A COUNTER-CLOCKWISE
> ROTATION MAIN ROTOR WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU LOWER COLLECTIVE? HINT: YOU
> GET A NICE YAW TO THE LEFT SINCE YOU ARE TAKING TORQUE/POWER OUT OF
> THE SYSTEM

Yes, pretty obvious.

AND SO YOU NEED TO APPLY RIGHT PEDAL.

Yes.... and your point is?

THAT RIGHT PEDAL
> TAKES THE PITCH/THRUST OUT OF THE TAIL ROTOR.

The pilot in the original scenario already had the tail rotor thrust taken
out by the failure. He could've pedaled from now 'til eternity and nothing
would change.

> WHEN YOU LOWER COLLECTIVE YOU ARE REDUCING POWER,

You are if you also either roll off throttle or the governor does it for
you. Otherwise.....

MORON.

Oh dear... name calling at this early stage? Makes you look somewhat
immature don't you think?

STOP THINKING
> THAT POWER IS ONLY REDUCED BY REDUCING ROTOR SPEED.

I don't remember mentioning rotor speed, in fact I know I didn't, so if
you're going to argue, a least argue with something I said... Power is
reduced by reducing power.

GO STUDY JUST A
> BIT.
> ONE MORE THING, THE FIRST THING MOST PILOT OPERATING HANDBOOKS STATE
> IS THAT IN THE EVENT OF LOSS OF TAIL ROTOR EFFECTIVENESS IN FLIGHT THE
> FIRST THING THE PILOT SHOULD DO IS LOWER COLLECTIVE.

Is that "MOST" or "ALL"?

> YOU ARE TRYING TO ARGUE ALGEBRA WITH A MATH PRO WHEN YOU OBVIOUSLY
> DON'T KNOW WHAT 2 PLUS 2 EQUALS.
> GO BACK TO YOUR TOYS.

Oh, now I'm hurt bady.

> REGARDS,
> MARK
> PS
> HOW MANY PIC HOURS DO YOU HAVE IN HELICOPERS? I'D GUESS ZERO. NO WAIT,
> I'D GUARANTEE THAT YOU HAVE ZERO. He he

Do you think I actually CARE what you "guarantee"?

--
Beav

Please note my E-mail address is "beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com"
(with the obvious changes)

Beavisland now lives at
www.beavisoriginal.co.uk

Beav

September 10th 04, 12:27 PM

"Kevin R" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Shiver Me Timbers" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> helicopterandy > wrote:
> >
> >> GO BACK TO YOUR TOYS.
> >> REGARDS,
> >> MARK
> >
> > To the Group......... Yunno folks I've been lurking in this group for a
> <SNIP>
> Before this goes to far this has been cross posted to both full size and
> model helicopters and we are are areguing why we are getting slagged off
"in
> our group" but we are posting to "thier group as well" just bear it it
mind
> before all the toys are missing from your pram
> and as for helicopterandy "PLONK" what a prat???
> Keep up the good work Beavis and just kill file him hes not worth the
typing

I just did.

Cheers

--
Beav

Please note my E-mail address is "beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com"
(with the obvious changes)

Beavisland now lives at
www.beavisoriginal.co.uk

Cam

September 10th 04, 02:35 PM

I know whats happened here, Randy Pandy has scratched the paint on his R22
and now it won't fly anymore .
Now all experimental and RC heli enthusiasts are complete ****in idiots.

Would a helicopter fly better when the earth was flat?

Cam.

helicopterandy

September 10th 04, 07:13 PM

Max of Mad > wrote in message >...
> helicopterandy wrote:
> >
> > BEAVIS,
> > YOUR ABOVE POST IS SO WRONG AND MISGUIDED THAT I WON'T BOTHER
> > RESPONDING TO YOU ANY FURTHER AFTER THIS ONE. BUT DO YOURSELF ONE
>
> (snip)
>
> You are full of it.
>
> Before you go off the hook, please understand that I mean you no
> disrespect, yet.
>
> Don't yell. Typing in all caps is deafening.
>
> Don't say something is wrong and misguided and idiotic without giving an
> immediate explanation.
>
> From what I am able to gather from your post, you don't acknowledge the
> fact that the rudder pedals are useless. In model helicopter terms, the
> left and right rudder are useless. In 'real' helicopter terms, again
> the rudder pedals are useless...
>
> What exactly is your problem with his statement? Please state it civilly.
>
>
> Max of Mad

Max,
The person is trying to tell me (I am very experienced pilot) that
lowering collective will not help with a tail rotor failure. In fact,
he's intimating that it would INCREASE the problem . He's clearly a
moron or just another wanna-be who thinks he knows something (NOT!)
when he doesn't. If you cannot fathom what a loon someone is who
thinks that then maybe you are in his category also.
Regards,
Mark
PS
And as I stated in my previous post, I won't bother responding to him
again. Only an idiot will argue with an ididot.
Oh yeah, why do you all post under different poster names? How
utterly juvenile!!

Alan

September 10th 04, 09:04 PM

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz *AT* adelphia *DOT* net> wrote in
message ...
> On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 01:35:07 +1200, "Cam" > wrote:
>
>>I know whats happened here, Randy Pandy has scratched the paint on his
>>R22
>>and now it won't fly anymore .
>> Now all experimental and RC heli enthusiasts are complete ****in idiots.
>
> I guess I'm a double idiot. I'm a wet-behind-the-ears student helo
> pilot *AND* a RC helo "pilot" (translation: I can hover and do some
> limited forward flight without crashing about half the time. hehehe)
>
>>Would a helicopter fly better when the earth was flat?
>
> You mean it's not???

No. It's just HARD

--
Alan

Remove the dots to reply
http://heliweb.users.btopenworld.com/

>

Beav

September 11th 04, 12:23 AM

"Cam" > wrote in message
...
> I know whats happened here, Randy Pandy has scratched the paint on his
R22
> and now it won't fly anymore .
> Now all experimental and RC heli enthusiasts are complete ****in idiots.

Yeah, well he's obviously right :-)
>
> Would a helicopter fly better when the earth was flat?

Only if it was inverted:)

--
Beav

Please note my E-mail address is "beavis dot original at ntlworld dot com"
(with the obvious changes)

Beavisland now lives at
www.beavisoriginal.co.uk

Jim

September 11th 04, 11:31 PM

I believe preliminary findings are leaning toward inadvertent isolation of
the hydraulics, followed by sudden loss of procedural knowledge, shortly
followed by total amnesia of the event... or something close to that. Go
read the NTSB report.

"Ove" > wrote in message
.. .
> Maybe a hydraulic failure (lost the pressure) ?
>
> Ove
> "Iwan Bogels" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > This week I have uploaded a video of a helicopter crash on my website
> > (www.dappa.nl/crash.htm). Does anyone have a clue about the failure that
> > caused this crash? It is definately not an engine failure or a tail
rotor
> > failure, but it still looks like a spectacular decend.
> >
> > For the sensitive viewers: Nobody got hurt, but the helo is a complete
> write
> > off.
> >
> > Iwan Bogels
> > DAPPA
> >
> >
>
>
>